This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
I believe my scoring was deeper than before maybe 0.5 cm. From horizontal the angle was about 60 degrees. I think those two factors along with more skin tension from better shaping and maybe lower hydration have contributed to the grigné and ears.
Nice Benny! The thicker ears must come from a new scoring technique. Did you change your stroke. Change the launch angle to hit more home runs. A deeper cut with some extra length?
You may have to scale to a smaller piece to get the slender look and less crowding on the steel. Nice job of working with a new flour.
Thanks Don. Yes I changed my scoring and I’m using quick slashes at about 60% from horizontal and going deeper to about 0.5 cm.
I think part of the issue with browning must be crowding on the steel. I probably should only be baking two at a time, unless I can get them slimmer then perhaps there might be more space on the steel. I will continue to work on the shaping and try to get them slimmer next time. There is always something I want to improve upon with everything that I have ever baked.
The second half of the batch was retarded overnight at ~44°F and baked this morning after ~16 additional cold hours. The result is supportive of the theory that retard time has little effect on crumb openness and that I am inconsistent in shaping baguettes. The image below illustrates the different zones where the dough was compressed during shaping (surrounded by the blue ellipses) and the areas that were not (enclosed in pink boxes) where the crumb remains fairly uniform and somewhat dense. The green arrows point to the smaller cross-section produced by the compression during shaping.
Other than the inconsistent shaping, the general appearance of the crumb is quite similar to the loaf above.
The photo below illustrates an esthetic benefit of a long retard at a slightly higher temperature (44°F vs 38°F in this case). There is prolific blistering of the crust, though there is still a lot of experimentation to nail down the specific conditions that lead to this end point.
And the crust is slightly darker than the loaves baked (with minimal retardation) yesterday (when the retard was just enough to cool off the dough so that it was easier to handle). This is a little surprising, but attests to the low temperature activity to the diastatic malt (added for its alpha amylase enzymes).
I just che ked and the post count for this CB was 999. So I thought I’d make it an even 1000.
I just looked up the baguette photos in some of my books: Local Breads by Leader, BBA by Reinhart, and Bread 1st edition by Hamelman.
Dan is right. All of all y'all's "dialed in" loaves are equal to or better looking than all the baguettes in those books.
The Village Baker by Ortiz has one grainy B/W photo with baguettes, and all y'all beat those hands down.
congrats, ladies and gentlemen.
"Noun
The practice of obtaining information or input into a task or project by enlisting the services of a large number of people, either paid or unpaid, typically via the Internet."
And there we have it. The dedicated exchange and wealth of information and input from folks with varying degrees of background and practice in baguettery.
All with one goal in mind, okay maybe two or three. Basically to raise awareness and interest to the joys of baguette baking and its challenges, and to increase the skill set of those who wished to participate or just tune in.
I doubt if there's a single participant who isn't a better baker at some level due to the own participation.
"a rising tide lifts all boats"
I see references to blade angle without enough information for me to recreate it.
I use two angles to describe blade orientation:
Starting with the handle of the lame aligned with the axis of the loaf and the flat of the blade vertical (even if it is curved, assume it is curved symmetrically about the center of the blade after the blade is oriented vertically). Now the elevation angle is formed by lifting your wrist and the back of the lame so that the handle forms an acute angle with the axis of the loaf. This is really a dive angle if you use airplane coordinates but we will call it the elevation angle and it is positive as the handle is lifted higher and higher toward the vertical.
The second angle is the rotation of the blade about an axis parallel to the loaf axis so that the path of the end of the lame handle lies on a circle, the axis of which is parallel to the loaf axis. I refer to this a the roll angle with clockwise roll being positive.
If there is a different preferred coordinate frame I am happy to adopt it but I don't know what it is.
It was just pointed out to me that there is another angle to capture, and that is the direction that the blade curves. Let's use the right hand rule to describe blades that have the belly of the curve on the right side of the handle when the blade is vertical to have positive curvature, and blades that have the belly of the curve on the left to have negative curvature. Some right handed users may prefer to use a negatively curved blade to assault the dough and may use a negative roll angle to go with it.
French flour is giving me fits! Went 68% hydration this time and it was way wet. Decided to give it 300 uninterrupted slap & folds hoping that they would bring strength to the dough. Shaping was a challenge. The dough was super slack and very sticky.
Since the bake before this was too dry at 66% and this bake is too wet at 68%, the only assumption it that 67% should be the best. It’s hard to believe that this flour is so water sensitive. Think about it, 14 grams of flour is the difference between sloppy wet and super dry. Geremy just got his T65 and he tells me that 72% is probably just right. Either he knows something I don’t or we have very different flour.
The dough was scored at approximately a 60 degree angle, but with such a slack dough, ears were not to be. Same old, same old. Bread always turns out a great texture and taste. Were it not for that, I abandon it in favor of the good ole USA flour.
Making small strides towards sloped ends during shaping.
That is crazy that 66% was too dry and 68% too wet. Was it the same batch of flour or two different batches of the same flour? Perhaps the flour used from this set was stored somewhere very humid or the previous somewhere really dry before you received it.
I like your shaping with the pointy ends, very very nice.
Since phillippe was waiting on a huge shipment (hence the delays). Best thing to compare now maybe is if you stand mix it using the same timing and settings that i do and see what you get then. Maybe its getting overworked. As mentioned before the amount of mixing is really light and totally predictable. I juat did the following.
- 500g + 320g water 4 minute slow mix.
- 30 minute autolyse
- 8 minute slow mix with .5g IDY and 10g salt
- 2 mins high speed and gradually adding the remaining 30g of water.
From here Im fermenting for 1 hr then i will FF and ferment again for 30 mins then bulk in fridge. Also its rather cool here around 75F so i will likely add some time to the 1.5 hours on the bench but otherwise ... so far it looks like the dough i know ;)
Geremy, my Kitchenaid is laid up with stripped gears. Maybe I’ll borrow my neighbors and follow in your foot steps.
If I remember correctly, you don’t use any retardation. Is that correct?
Please try to spell out your method and process. Images would be nice and I’ll follow along. Hopefully tomorrow.
Both will make a difference. IDY really wants to be rehydrated with 125° water, and if you use room temperature water the performance will be significantly different.
Gluten development is determined by the shear energy absorbed by the dough and the dough hook puts less energy in than the paddle so you just have to be consistent.
Danny - Make sure you know what your flour moisture content really is. You live in Louisiana and that is not the same as Paris (or Lyon). Weigh out 100g on a baking sheet and dry it in the oven at 140-160°F until it stops losing weight, then reweigh the pan + flour and calculate how much weight it lost.
I notice a lot of variation in crumb openness that is quite similar to what I experienced, with your skinny loaf showing a more uniformly open crumb than the fatter one. To what do you attribute this?
Doc, I attribute the tighter crumb on the ends of the smaller loaf to pressing down in order to form the tapered ends.
I will need to heat some flour and test the moisture content.
...from the air ? Seems that if i ordered 2 sacs of 50lbs each and sent one to cali and the other to new orleans i would be really freaked out if the one in new orleans absorbed even 30g of weight from the air. Is that really something that matters as a factor when deciding hydration ? Really curious. Seems to me akin to weighing a battery before and after it depletes to figure how many electrons rushed out and converted to energy !
Put 100g T65 into the oven set at 170F
Moisture content determined to be 12.29%
Set an alarm so that you do that again in January next year. Then we can see how much difference you observe. You might try a different flour as well to see if there is a significant difference in that dimension as well.
I ordered a bag of this flour and it should be here later in the week. I look forward to comparing my experiences with yours and to see how it compares with the Wheat Montana AP I have been using that I think has a nice flavor.
The tapered ends look nice on the outside but I was surprised to see the effects on the crumb.
Don, the good news is, it is very possible to shape the baguette with gradually tapering ends and still produce completely open crumb throughout. Benny and Maurizio prove that out,
So much to learn...
I look forward to reading your results with T65!
Surprisingly the tapered end didn’t have that tght a crumb. Along the sides are tighter than the centre. I haven’t been able to attain the super crumb from a few bakes back, but I also have had to change flours which may have affected it.
Suppose you have 1000g of flour and in one case it is dry and in the other case it is 15% moisture. The bread you make requires 670g of water for flour with 15% moisture. How much water do you need to add to the dry flour to produce the same resulting dough?
There is 150g of water in one batch to which you add 670g resulting in 820g of total water added to 850g of dry flour (96.4% hydration)
To yield the same moisture content using dry flour you have to add 964g of water which would normally be excessive but it produces the same dough and adds an additional 294g of water to achieve the same result (though the batch weight is greater by 294g as well).
Real world results are not that extreme, but the calculation and the necessary adjustments are arrived at by the same methodology.
So it does matter, even if you don't think so. I think everybody has a favorite hydration that works for them which implicitly accounts for the moisture in their flour. But I suspect that you can count on the thumbs of one hand the number of people you know who routinely make the adjustment. And that estimate may be high. But it is not irrelevant if you are using an unfamiliar flour, and that may justify actually making the measurement.
Interesting perspective here
I am still in baguette mode so why not post it. The Bouabsa recipe again and the last of it's kind for a while because I will hopefully be working with the french flour next weekend and we will see how it compares. Wheat Montana AP with 78% hydration because it is really dry here now. I just rolled up the dough in a tube shape and rested seam up. I think I will switch to a fat oval batard type pre shape next time because they end up too skinny in the middles otherwise. I did get a nice double taper on one of them anyway. Used ADY again and retarded for 21 hours. I should have added some malt because they didn't want to brown. The crooked one got stuck on the stone when I went to slide it in place and it wiggled out of line and affected the crumb at that spot. Otherwise the Super Duper Peel is working smoothly now with the right belt tension.
The french flour must really be something because these taste really good. I saw a great T-shirt yesterday that said
Montana
social distancing
since 1889
As per the rules skiers are able to discard their worst run. Well bake two of three is that run for me. I hate making excuses, however, three late afternoon Dewar's on the rocks, may or may not have contributed to the horrific slashing job. Truth is the bake was doomed for the initial mixing stage. I took a tried and true formula messed with it with little before thought. I will revisit the semolina baguette, but not without some thought. Smile...While batch number two turned out well below my normal, average sticks, they were quite edible. ( Bake three of three is set for 8:00PM bake off)
What lesson did you learn from this one?
Will, I wonder if the loaves would have blown out or not if they weren’t scored? If they didn’t blow out, maybe they would have produced Ciabatta-like crumb.
I imagine high percentages of Semolina in baguettes is a unique challenge in itself.
Broke protocol (not to use this new oven for bread but more to join the action. No steam just mist on the surface. First loaves in about 2 years - ok results but working on the newer bread dedicated unit -
Like the Demis. How much do they weigh? Shaping those don’t come easy for me.
Pretty good after a 2 year sabbatical!
The demi is really a mini and it's whatever I had left over, maybe 150g
Can't wait to see the brand when it makes it mark. It must have been difficult holding back for so long watching us from the sidelines. So ready to bust out that a gas oven had to be used. I hope the new oven works as anticipated. I look forward to any help you could provide after the T65 gets here. We will probably be on pg 5 by then
The Louis Lamour method (for Dan) and will post sometime before you T65 arrives. I'm really interested to see how it works out for others !
As strange as this sounds, the raw T65 flour taste a little sweet to me. It is milled super fine, like talcum powder.
Some good, back sliding in other areas. Slashing mostly failed, shaping was a big disappointment because I was improving. Still in all, I am happy with the oven spring, and ear on that one stick! Additionally I am getting closer to the chubby 400G at 17" sticks I am striving for. I'm not going to give to much worry to the color, other than remembering to spray the skin.
Another element in the plus column. Overall I rate this bake a "C" passing, but I can do so much better! Please excuse the low quality photograph.
Multiple variations on the theme this time. Switched to KA AP flour. Stayed with 4 x 390g, 1% diastatic malt + 0.25% nutritional yeast dissolved in 20ml of the water. Dough temperature was a little lower (85°F vs 90°F). Moved some of the fermentation time from bulk (90 min) to final proof (2 hr) - to the detriment of the final results. Retard at the end of BF was 2 hr - just enough to get the dough temperature down to 45°F to improve handling during shapping. Baked two pans of two baguettes each at the same time (with noticeable differences in oven spring and browning with the upper set turning out less brown but with increased oven spring). Crumb (bottom photo) is not as uniform and noticeably tighter than the last batch (I attribute this to the shorter BF). Shaping was similar to last batch: cut off a strip of dough, fold it in half, cynch it up (net about 10" long), rest 30 min, tighten once more and roll out to 20".
Proof on the counter 2 hr, retard 45 min to stiffen the dough then bake - so this was eight hours end to end.
The lame was rolled over further (maybe 15°) for the two at the bottom with a noticeable difference in the ears, but they were also baked lower in the oven which becomes a confuser.
I think next round will increase BF to about 3 hr and push the final proof as far as I think I can before chilling and baking.
The top two have a better rise and ear and overall nicer appearance.
Right now I am attributing the difference to oven position and possibly to lame technique. Next batch will be four sticks, two high/two low in the oven and one of each slashed with a higher blade roll angle
The shape and crumb are really nice. Are you using the higher DT to promote a more sour taste? If so would a longer retard do the same thing?
While the LAB does have a marginally higher growth rate at elevated temperatures, 90°F is not enought suppress the yeast which is what you need if you want to see any real acidity increase. I do it for timing, and so long as the dough rheology is not making it terribly difficult to handle, warmer means a shorter overall process.
A longer retard can do that for you, but at low temperatures it is not the relative growth rate that I would worry about so much as the really slow rate of the LAB acid production that makes it take a long time. I think the ideal temperature is perhaps right where the yeast effectively stops fermenting sugar while the LAB continues to make acid - and that is a strong function of the specific yeast you are using and thus not something that we can provide general guidance on (except that you have to figure it out for yourself).
Doc, do the top 2 loaves have thinner crust than the bottom 2?
The top 2 look a lot like MTLoaf’s baguettes, which I am becoming fond of. Thin crispy crust is a big thing with baguettes for me. That’s why I’ve been using CY only for the last number of bakes.
These are sourdough with no commercial yeast. I may get around to that but the space to be explored has too many dimensions already - I don't need another one right now.
I really want a baguette that has some sourdough in it, so if I go to CY it will likey be via Geremy's practice, a small amount as a booster rather than as a replacement.
The crust is typical sourdough crust - chewy, crackly, intensely flavored.
You may like to check-out Hamelmans's sourdough baguettes. only 0.2% yeast and 0.1% malt powder.
Thanks. When the time comes that sounds about right, though the malt would not be enough to do much, unless it is non-diastatic malt and there to give the yeast a little boost.
Following on from my baguettes made early in this community challenge from the Pain au Levain with whole-wheat, I wanted to return to a simpler baguette and introduce hand kneading with stretch and folds instead of letting the mixer do the work. Previously, I have made baguettes with poolish quite a few times and have that experience as my baseline to compare the results.
Hamelman’s formula is 66% hydration with white bread flour. I have to settle for 340 g for each baguette dough as that is the max of my oven depth. The flour available to me now is a Lauche white flour of 11.5% protein. I am pleased with the overall results, but my shaping went a bit askew in one of the baguettes. I could feel that I had too much dough in one end after I had rolled it out to my maximum length of 30 cm. Even though the formula is 66% hydration, the dough had a very soft feel and I could easily straighten them up on the wooden peel while holding their shape. Scoring was easy without any drag.
Baked in a pre-steamed oven at 237 °C for 24 minutes. Steam for the first 5 minutes and finished in a drying oven.
After the bake, I could see which baguette had the shaping problem with uneven spring and inconsistent size lengthwise. Hand kneading resulted in a lighter, more open crumb and bigger oven spring than using my mixer. A nice rich russet crust with a creamy open aromatic crumb.
Interesting change with the hand mix. Was the goal a less developed gluten to open up the crumb? It is quite nice for the lower hydration and the oven spring was impressive.
Gavin, from my point of view your shaping looks very good. We are our own worst critics.
You mention, “hand kneading”. I’m thinking like you. If we develop the gluten completely, it could hinder the oven spring and maybe tighten the crumb. Haven’t proved that out, but it is my present thought.
This experiment was to test whether gentler handling of the dough resulted in a better product in volume and crumb. My mixer is a Thermomix that has an aggressive kneading action compared to other mixer types. To give you an idea of how aggressive; when determining the desired dough temperature, the friction factor I must apply for 2:30 minutes is 55°F, whereas most mixers are around 24°F to 26°F to moderate gluten development. The chance of overmixing is a real threat using my Thermomix.
Since reading the posts here, I realise that many do the slap or stretch and folds. I have tested this over the last three weeks with my sourdough, that has seen an improvement.
I am pleased with the results yesterday with the baguette.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Hello, friends.
I am in the research phase of planning my next baguette bake. I settled on a very interesting bread by None other than the queen of Italian bread, Ms. Carol Fields. If anyone is interested in her exact formula, I picked up the PDF of her book "The Italian baker" pretty cheap over at Amazon. The durum wheat bread I chose is called Altamura bread, from the Puglia region. I am a little confused by her description of shaping the traditional pompadour shape? No worries I plan on shaping this 89% hydration bread into rustic baguettes. Below, is interesting information I gleaned from the internet. Ah, that bring me to one other note. I plan on using Italian mineral water for the bake, Fiuggi water (Acqua di Fiuggi ) if I can find some. I think, midweek I will start the biga.
Altamura bread is particularly special, as it is the only bread in Europe that has Protected Designation of Origin (PDO) status, which it was granted by the EU in 2003. The bread is therefore highly regulated; if bakers want to use the name Pane di Altamura DOP, they must meet all PDO benchmarks to ensure that they are using traditional methods and ingredients. These requirements include using particular varieties of wheat, a certain specification of water, a consistent production method and a final crust which must be more than three millimeters thick. That’s pretty precise!
I look forward to seeing this one proceed. It sounds super interesting. Like the background info.
What is the percentage of Durum?
Does it use sourdough?
The bread is 100% durum wheat flour. No sourdough, the biga has 1/2 teaspoon of C.Y, and the final dough has another 1/2 teaspoon. Very interesting indeed!
bread fascination. Indeed a 100% durum wheat bread, we "all" also used a 100% durum levain rather than a different pre-ferment. There's a lot of TFL info available on this bread. I was a participant as well, and in my often typical wayward ways, I deviated enough from the traditional shape that I had to move three times, and change my identity to avoid the personal ire of any adherents!
My post has links to other earlier baker's attempts. The neighboring Basilicata town of Matera has a bread in the same tradition.
As it happens, I was just now checking out the bakes by Dr. Snyder and Franko! My wife picked up the Fiuggi water at the Italian specialty shop on University. so this is already taking shape! The durum flour I have is a very fine grind. Ms. Fields, call for fine, so I think I am on the right track as far as ingredients.
Yeah, I know that it's not but I usually forget their real name, as since the day they opened, that's what I call them. A fairly good source for the sometimes harder to find items but you need to know the price of things before they go into your basket! When down there, I find myself shopping in Gristedes, a necessary evil, although there probably isn't a single thing about the store that appeals to me except the Utz Dark Baked Pretzels, and I can get those at CVS across the street when I knuckle under to the desire. Way way back, the Knickerbocker Grill was a wonderful AND fair priced place to catch a Village meal in style. No more! One last piece of history here, the former home of the bank on the corner of 8th and University, was for decades The Cookery jazz club and restaurant, where we went a number of times to see the late great Alberta Hunter.
Not much to do with bread here, but when I saw you mention Sacco & Vanzetti I had to comment. Okay, I'm done...
I want to say, when I moved to the Village 20+ years ago that spot was a woman's clothing shop. Then BBQ's for many years (lots of liquid lunches at that spot) Yes, it's imposable for us to do a big shopping near home. We go to queens, or even the LES to load up. So, couple of two three years ago, I needed a bluefish on the bone for one of moms signature recipes. (Daughter of a poor fisherman) My bride and I walked to Chinatown to look for the fish. Alan, I tell you what, I would not feed the fish I saw there to my dog! So we walked back and went to the "Valente &...spot" All they had out were filets, The dude must have thought I wanted him to hack up a bluefish for one steak. When he realized I wanted the whole fish he came up with one! I didn't even care about the price. Sometimes when it comes to my cooking, price is of little consequence! This was the resulting meal.
Bluefish on the bone
I'll follow your adventure in Altamura bead with interest. I have Daniel Leader's book "Local Breads" and he devotes a complete chapter on the bread from the small town Altamura. I haven't made any bread from his book yet but it's an excellent read.
Cheers,
Gavin
There have been may passed posts, that used the local breads formula, with very impressive results. In fact in a post directly above, Alfonso shared the link to his 100% durum bake, following basically the local breads formula! Fingers crossed that thing normalize all over, maybe we could do a C.B. on durum wheat bread!
Thanks to Geremy, I am getting a better handle on the French flour. I followed his instructions verbatim. Even borrowed my neighbors Kitchenaid mixer to duplicate exactly what Geremy was doing. The bake used all CY @ 0.32%. Past Bouabsa bakes were difficult at 68% hydration but with the new instructions 72% was very doable. I am wondering if the fact that I was mixing the IDY with the dough water may have had a detrimental affect on the dough. That seems strange, but recently read that IDY should be mixed dry with the flour, which I did for this bake.
Although the dough was not super strong, it was definitely more manageable. Shaping was better, but nothing has shaped nearly as well as Hamelman’s Pain au Levain. None came even close! If I were into Instagram fame, there is no doubt, Hameman’s Pain au Levain would be the choice. Great bread for the Baguette CB, Alan! The dough was chilled after the final proof and before slashing.
Dan, your grand-daughter could sell those at her lemonade stand and you two could make a fortune.
Seeig that shaping and handling was challlenging. Not sure about the IDY and water theory - who knows. Btw on the steam - i mentioned to go easy probably because you recent 60 degree slash bake didnt bust and suspected maybe you over steamed. I find that its kinda sensitive but if you figure the ideal steam blast this ia where you can really develop good gringne. Too much steam and the loaf is too soft, too little steam gets a duller crust. Now, while on the topic of ovens, wheres my friggen electrician at - hes late !!!
I have a mix started after it arrived this afternoon. ?? ?
Looking forward to seeing and hearing your results.
oh, wait. I've been retired since 2003...
Beautiful bake Dan, corner bakery window dressing for sure. Is it just the lighting or are these lacking some caramelization sheen from the steaming?
Can we assume from the image below that the stone should be raised to subject the crust to more heat?
I ask because if you examine the crumb it is obvious that bottom has a nicer crumb than the top. These leads me to consider that more heat from the top may do two things.
As an example, let’s look at Doc’s crumb shot (below). The cell structure appears to mirror the top and the bottom. Should this be considered an indication of even heat distribution between the top and bottom of the loaf?
The hot air is flowing both over and under each loaf from the side, so the biggest difference I see between two side-by-side loaves is due to flow blockage by the up-stream loaf, and since I reverse the pans (rotate each pan 180°) half way through it pretty much balances out.
Time to put aside my pain rustique experiments and get down to biznez again. I asked my wife what's up on her desired baking wheel of fortune, and she chose these, which are likely our most baked bread other than maybe the Vermont SD. The semolina here is actually the finer durum, although I'll probably call them semolina until the day I Croak Monsieur!
60% semola rimacinata, 40% AP, the hydration on these is a modest 67%. And while I get some open crumb, the high percentage of semolina does not play fair when it comes to open crumb.
0.25% NY mixed into the liquid, 100% hydration AP levain & salt aded at autolyse time, a shortened 20 minutes affair. 2 hrs/ BF with folds at 40,80 & 110. And then retarded until divide and shaping somewhere about half-way through the retard cycle. 460dF one, 13 min. steam, rotate and 13 min more, 2 min oven venting.
The Nutritional Yeast likely provided the extensibility that the dough needed, and again, it did not shrink back much if any. I'd like to see some better, more consistent shaping throughout the barrel of the baton, should have been a half shade darker, and perhaps should have ben a thicker barrel.
But I can't complain about the scoring or the overall bake. At all.
My couche was initially cut to accommodate the length of my long batards, too short for these. A few years ago my brother brought this back from Paris for me. An all cotton kitchen towel, it seems to not only do the job, but also be a most appropriate couche.
330g x 3 baguettes
That a coincidence, I have a boule with 45% semolina rimacinata en 55% White wheat in the fridge.
The first time I am using more then 20% in bread.
A recent, past few decades, hybrid grain of wild barley and durum wheat was developed in Spain. It is available in some countries in Europe, although I'm not sure about the Netherlands. It has a number of advantages over traditional grains, and can be found on websites that promote the grain .
I've baked with it and it is vey similar to semolina/durum. Something you might want to look into as an alternative to semolina. My most recent bake with it was in April. And I like it, but it isn't available here in North America yet.
There is at least one wind mill here in the Netherlands thats sells it in there shop and on there site.
The also sell kamut but that is really expensive. Like € 7,05/$ 8,30 1 kilo.
There is at least one wind mill here in the Netherlands thats sells it in there shop and on there site.
The also sell kamut but that is really expensive. Like € 7,05/$ 8,30 1 kilo.
The seeds really glam it up.
Was it difficult to roll the shaped baguettes in the seeds?
Was the dough firm, similar to Pain au Levain?
A little rubbery during the French Folds, but it smooths out and becomes incredibly extensible by the first letter fold, even when not using the NY.
The only difficulty in rolling it in the seeds is that my standard, and perhaps longest tray is a few inches too short for the dough. So I had the somewhat bend the dough for it to fit. Not hard or inconvenient, but not right either.
The seeds on the outside of the baguettes look amazing Alan. At this point in my baguette skills I don’t think I’d be up for rolling my shaped baguettes on a damp cloth and then in seeds, I’ll leave that for you experts. Sesame seeds on the outside of a sourdough baguette are one of my favourite types of baguettes though so someday...
just keep a wet towel, aper or otherwise, large enough for the shaped dough to fit on. A quick roll back and forth, and then the same in a tay of seeds. No pressure applied at either movement. You can do it.
duplicate
You mentioned divide, shape and couche mid way through the bulk retard. Looking for specifics of the seed application.
first wet cloth, then seeds. Just a short back and forth gentle movement on each. The scoring was done right out of retard and just before loading the oven.
I don't think the seeds are heavy enough to matter on the scoring or eventual grigne and they don't get in the way of the blade at al.
Do you apply the seeds after shaping and then put the dough back into the fridge, or are the seeds applied after the full retard is complete?
I never considered whether to do it at the end of retard, but at that stage I want to do nothing else manipulative other than move the dough from couche to oven peel.
Amazing bread! Professor Cavell .would be proud of the artisan bread baking effort! Kuddos.
Now all that being said, I just know you and Mr. Wilson are warming to a 100% durum wheat bake! Smile...
P.S. Counting down to the biga build!
not a particularly difficult task. I don't know about Mr. Wilson, but I do think about Me and Mrs. Jones .
Have some tasty fun with your formula. Having grown up a stone's throw from both Jewish and Italian bakeries in the Bronx, I find that rye with caraway and sesame semolina breads, both my favorites, are on my short rotation.
I make a very decent low % deli rye also. I would be curious to see yours.
These days I use 100% hydration AP levain vs. what is in this post. Also currently use 25% rye flour and 0% WW, and it doesn't really matter what hydration % starter to build the levain.
This is what that looks like from a bake a few weeks ago, without the cornstarch glaze. There are also caraway seeds mixed into the dough.
All of a sudden, I am in the mood for pastrami with brown mustard on rye! Lenny's? Hmm, maybe.
We typically fly home on a late afternoon flight. A stop at Lenwich for an airport gate lunch is an essential part of the get-away day routine! Sometimes also a diversion to Bleecker St. pizza on the way to the A or E. That means JFK or LGA for the uninformed!
There no longer is a "typical" flight for the foreseeable future for us. We each had 3 flight reservations that we had to cancel in the early Spring. As Dylan sang "We ain't going nowhere". I won't get a plane until there is a vaccine. And I'll assume that we codgers will be on the first half of the line-up for the injection.
they closed the 6th av. location. They reopened on University and I want to say 11st? I was thinking it was a new satellite location. Until I notice the 6th av. spot is closed. I am 90% sure the new spot is open, Last time I passed it was either just open or still coming soon.
I have always had a fondness for semolina sesame seed. Glad to see you back on your game. Now we are off to explore the flours of the world while making baguettes. Durham flour! I haven't seen it in the shops around here only semolina. Will that work? I hope so or my delivery driver is going to hate me.
Some Canadian mills make an Atta Durum that mimics semola rimacinata. I found it and took the plunge with a 20lb. bag I saw, and was not disappointed on the first bake.
Semolina comes in a few different grinds, and even the finest of them, #1 I think, is too coarse for bread. But that's what I believe without ever having experienced it myself.
This was the first bake with the longer baguettes where I felt comfortable with this new length, basically 50% longer than my standard "long batards". Nothing like feeling that hint of confidence at addressing the task at hand.
Thanks, alan
The Atta Durum is widely available here in Toronto. I’ve seen it at many of the largest supermarkets in the “ethnic” foods section with the Indian foods.
I have always wondered about the flours I bake with that come from the shelf of most supermarkets. I try to buy the best available which used to be King Arthur but it has been gone from our shelves for a while. I am fortunate to live near wheat country and the local flour is pretty good (Wheat Montana) and it goes along with the effort to purchase locally. However the boys in the band were singing the praises of this flour and I saw it as a rare opportunity to bake with really good flour for once. I don't know if I will ever make it to France but I have one more good reason to go now.
I used The Bouabsa formula of course and mixed it in my normal way a 20 minute autolyse with the 1/4 tsp SAF IDY at 70% water. Added the salt and 15 gr more water and mixed Rubaud for a minute or two rested for 10 and mixed another minute. Two coil folds in the first hour and one more an hour later as I put it in the fridge for the night, two and a half hours after starting. The dough had a silky texture but very sticky at the same time. When I looked this morning the dough had doubled and was domed so I punched it down and did another coil fold and went to work. I took it out of the fridge after 18 hours and divided it folded the ends in and rolled up a loose tube rested seam up. Shaped 15 minutes later and proofed 40 minutes. The dough was sticky and needed a lot of the precious flour on the bench to work with it but it was a pleasure to roll with even though quite delicate. The skin was not very taut and the scoring was jagged but that may have something to do with the warm afternoon. Baked at 480 for 23 minutes with steam under the stone as the change to allow smoother loading with the super duper peel. The smell from the oven was very different from the normal aroma.
Voila
They look very similar to the other sticks I posted
The crust was worth the price of admission alone.
The crumb was lovely and soft and melted on the tongue.
The flour didn't disappoint on the flavor and mouth feel. The crust was the best I have ever had. It was like deep fried cotton candy if there was such a thing. The flavor lingers with a long finish. A real eating pleasure.
I have enough flour to make baguettes 19 more times and will look forward to everyone of them. Thanks again to Kendalm for hooking us up with the good stuff.
So glad to got to try this flour. It was obvious from reading your previous post that this flour was right up your alley. It is the best baguettes I’ve ever eaten, by a long shot.
They came out super nice!
It is very different from American flours...
but the best hunk of bread ever period. There was a very refined feel to the flour but it was similar to working with KAFAP and weaker than the Wheat Montana AP. Hydration was in the neighborhood of 73% as Kendalm suggested and it handled like 75+ It just felt better at every step along the way. It seems intolerant of continuous mixing and more suited to the brief mixing with pauses that I prefer.
Yes, it seems we are too homogenized here to make specialty flour widely available. There must be someone on our side of the pond who is growing and milling a flour with these traits or my next order will be the 50 pounder.
That I have tried the real thing. It describes our plight. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/baking-bread-in-lyon
flour envy. I'm not sure that I'll also take the plunge, but I really enjoy living vicariously through your group bakes, trials, tribulations and subsequent successes. For the first time out of the gate, these look wonderful and display your signature signature!
I wonder if, when the formula was first developed by janedo and dmsnyder, whether they pumped up the hydration to accommodate North American flours. But the flour really was designed to be in the upper 60's to about your 70% hydration.
Don't bother wasting the precious flour by dusting the workbench with it. Why not use more pedestrian flour for the simple tasks?
Deep fried cotton candy - watch for it at a State Fair near you!
I think phillippe is shipping smaller quanties now so i think pick up maybe 5kg and he ships from the east coast so you can really benefit on shipping cost. aside from the really egg shell crust and tender crumb, it is the aroma and flavor that is something else. i have a hard time describing the aroma - its sort dampness that is really distict and inviting. eating-wise, dont expect flavor to hit you like a ton of bricks, it develops in your mouth as an almost dairy experience. you introduced me to hitchock - i humbly return the favor and well, kinda insist !
There is an ice cream quality to the crumb. I could still taste it hours after eating it. That's how long it haunts you. The texture and flavor was sublime right out of the oven but there is a period during the day old bread phase that crust has lost it's distinction but the flavor is at it's strongest.
You guys on the east coast should not hesitate to procure some of this flour. Gold Medal be damned.
I am noticing something that piggy backs onto Doc’s idea. Almost all of the TFL bakers baby their dough after BF. Doc mentioned a few post above how he “beat” the dough down and still got nice crumb. Don, pretty much a “crumb master”, takes his dough out of a 21 hr retard and “punched it down and did a coil fold”. <ouch!>
But take a look at his crumb. Are we babying our dough too much?
Don used CY and Doc used SD, I think.
I just degassed folded and put it back in the fridge for another 8 hours. it looked proper by then and was handled carefully after that. I think you can be more forceful with yeasted dough up until the actual final shape from then on any rough handling will show up in the final product.
For me its kinda a secret i dont want to share but for real enthusiasts we gotta keep lepicerie.com thriving. to my knowlege this is the only source of true french boulangerie bread flour here in usa. the reason i bake these is because i must have that same experience from the first bite I had in antibes back in the mid 80s. that alone speaks volumes. forget the fact anytime i was in france i stuffed my luggage them and froze them at home about 14 hours later. this is the real deal and so glad you like the results !
Nice web site! I almost gave up when I clicked on the four tab and the page was empty. However I persevered and found the goods. I need more diastatic malt anyway, so I may as well give the T65 a whirl. Before I lock it in, I have a question are you guys using the organic or the regular, is there a difference? Should I go ahead and save the 5 bucks? Thanks for your help in advance.
Went with Organic because there was so little price difference.
and I am still here. It ships from Rhode Island and was $40 bucks for shipping alone to get it in Montana. You could probably take a bus and get it yourself.
The wife and I have not been on a nice drive/daytrip in ages. Sounds like a plan! Fyi, seems his diastatic malt has sucrose, I'll stick with my friend Mr. Ginsburg, over at the NY Baker, for that ingredient. thanks guys, I guess I best stick with the regular, I don't want to shock my system with to much natural stuff! Smile...
never purchased the organic mostly because i so satisfied with the regular. side note i have a small bag of canadian T55 which im really excited to try. if theres one other place on planet earth where you can get amazing baguettes its in canada and more specifically montreal now that i have a new dedicated bread oven will hopefully have some flour reviews on the way.
I’ll be very interested in your review Geremy since I live in Canada and should have access to these flours. The first T55 flour i did use and haven’t been able to get again was Canadian it turns out and not French.
hust waiting for a rofco steam tray to arrive then will give it a shot. outside of france wiuld have to say Canada has some amazing baguettes particularly in monteal. i think you are in toronto right ?
Yes I am in Toronto Geremy. Funny back in the day, it has been some years, when I was in Montreal last, the only bread I had was bagels. Montreal is really known for their amazing fire oven bagels, I didn’t know and have never heard that they were known for their baguettes.
its of course a known that montreal bagels are incredible. theres a place in plateau called monsieur pinchot that used to have amazing baguettes but recently got new managment and not so great anymore. last time inwas there in november i went hunting and discovered several other places. off the baking topic though schwartz's smoked meat - incredible !
Schwartz’s is so well known for their Montreal Smoked Meat on Rye sandwiches, yumm.
I decided to bake another set of baguettes using a new AP flour I found that is a bit lower in protein listed as 12%. In the end the T55 which probably was mislabeled had a bit too much of a whole grain flavour for baguettes for me.
i followed Abel’s formula again this time with 67% hydration. I dissolved the 0.25% NY, 0.5% diastatic malt, 0.07% IDY and Levain 9% PFF in the water rye mixed the flour. 20 mins later adding salt and mixed for 5 minutes with Rubaud. Then two sets of coil folds at 50 minute intervals and ended BF when 30% rise. Cold retard en bulk until next day. Preheated oven 500ºF and divided and preshaped dough in a loose boule. Rested 10 minutes then shaped. Shaping went well except that they did contract and shorten so aren’t as long as I had hoped, seems to be the way with my baguettes either too long or too short. Next time with this flour I would shape as a loose roll instead. I left them to bench rest 20 minutes in the couche then put them in the fridge. Once the oven was ready they were scored and baked at 500ºF with steam for 13 minutes then steam vented and convection turned on leaving the temperature at 500ºF. Baked another 13 minutes.
Not the best crumb I’ve had that would have been with the T55 flour but overall steps forward with shaping I think. I’m doing better with the right amount of flour on the bench now. Scoring was ok could have been more consistently deep will need more practice but scoring quickly seems best. I like the small blisters from brushing water on the dough.
So is the crumb, the shaping, the coloration. Just the darker tips. People would kill for a a crumb like that. I understand that we are often our own harshest critics, but what more could you be looking for, especially if you think back a mere ten bakes ago. Don't undersell your skillset at this point, these are beautiful.
A suggestion on the pre-shape. You may try pre-shaping gently but with a longer barrel. That way you already have a head start for extensibility. I'm really surprised that you didn't achieve a more extensible dough length with the NY.
Thank you Alan, I know I focus on the negatives or what I perceive as the negatives on my bakes. It is true, I have come a long long way. Because I was expecting these to be pretty loose and extensible, I decided to shape into loose boules. It turns out that even though I did so little to develop the dough, and despite the NY, it was still a bit more elastic than I was expecting. I will repeat this with the same flour and pre-shape as a longer barrel so will have less stretching to do. I will say that I think that my shaping has improved gradually and I am feeling a bit more confident with it now.
They look pretty good to me Benny. How would you describe the taste?
Cheers,
Gavin
They do taste good, but not great like the ones I made with the Canadian T55 flour, they were the best I’ve made so far in flavour. I hope I can get my hands on that flour again sometime in the future.
It seems most baguette bakers that are looking for the classic baguette bite and chew favor weaker flours. It is there that the French flours excel, IMO.
Benny, 12% may be a little high in protein for the french style baguettes. Hamelman would consider that Bread Flour.
If you use that flour again I have 2 thoughts for your consideration.
I did both of the above last night and for KA AP (11.7%) it was too much, I think. Haven’t shaped them yet. NOTE - if the dough is super extensible at shaping, I plan to stretch the left and right sides of the dough and fold back into the middle, then continue as usual. Hopefully this will add some elasticity during elongation. A number of bakers not on TFL are into overnight retarded autolyse. Next time I may leave out the NY and try the cold autolyse only. The dough was mixed at 68% (used Hamelman’s Pain au Levain in the original post as is), and it was completely different (extensibility wise) from previous bakes and very manageable. It seemed 4 or 5% wetter than it actually was.
It is amazing how sensitive gluten characteristics are to slight changes.
There’s something about the torpedo shape that I like so I’ll keep trying to shape as torpedos.
Increasing the NY to 0.5% is a good idea Dan I think I may do that next time. I’m not sure about the extended cold autolyse. I’ve been doing fermentolyse dissolving the IDY, diastatic malt and NY in water then mixing the flour. Salt added 20 mins later. I’m hoping that the loose roll pre-shaping and increased NY will help with extensibility.
Good suggestion that if the dough is too extensible to fold the ends in to shorten and then continue shaping. So long as there isn’t too much flour on the dough that shouldn’t be a problem and should work.
Have you tried something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/Onwon-Powder-Sugar-Shaker-Lid/dp/B07L72F1FZ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Powder+Shaker&qid=1596154798&s=home-garden&sr=1-3
The little shakers put down a light dusting with an even coat. Very little flour is on the counter, but because it is so evenly dispersed it works very well.
I use a small sieve to lightly flour the bench now and when shaping the baguettes, I don’t flour the bench. I’ve been keeping a small amount of flour that I will briefly place the dough onto to lightly flour it instead of flouring the bench. This has been working better than flouring the bench when shaping.
I've had a brain fart! I don't know what NY means.
Nutritional yeast.
Thanks Benny. Other than nutritional value, what effect do you expect to have on bread dough?
The group has found that the addition of small amounts of NY helps with extensibility of the dough. However, at higher percentages some have found they didn’t like the flavour it contributed.
Thanks, I couldn't find the answer. Cheers.
while on the topic of canada - seems all the baguettes ive had in canada are torpedos. go figure. yours look great !
My favourite local bakery Black Bird does a wonderful sesame coated sourdough baguette which they shape as torpedos, I’m sure that they are the reason I’ve been trying to do a torpedo shape. Ironic that the baguettes you’ve seen in Canada Geremy are torpedos considering the fact that we as a country probably have very few actual torpedos.
You have really taken to the challenge and making some great looking baggies. I like the graceful shape and your usual excellent crumb with a bold bake thrown in to boot. They are always a work in progress but the flaws disappear with the first bite and chew. I think water does a more predictable job of adding extensibility with less impact on the flavor than NY.
Thank you Don. You’re right when I went with higher hydration the dough was more extensible, but it was also more difficult to shape. With more practice I might deal better with higher hydration just as I’ve been able to do somewhat better with it for my hearth loaves.
Just read an article published by the San Francisco Baking Institute (SFBI.com). It makes the case for liquid levains when extensibilty (baguettes) are desired.
“When a sourdough process is used to make the final product, the dough automatically develops more strength, due to the higher level of acidity produced by these preferments (because of the activity of the bacteria present in the culture). This increase in strength can be an advantage for the baker who decides to retard some dough (stronger dough will retard better).
As explained previously, liquid sourdough promotes dough with better extensibility. Its use in the production of “long-shaped” breads like baguettes is recommended.”
Since we are adapting Hamelman’s Pain au Levain for baguettes (which was not his intention), it seems a 100% hydrated levain would be best.
For those that would like to read the article in it’s entirety-
Dough Strength: Evaluation and Techniques
So based on that then firmer starter increases LAB activity compared with more liquid starter? Are they implying that having less acid is better for extensibility, this would make sense since acid tightens up the gluten.
Acid’s affect on SD has been somewhat confusing to me.
I think -
So, too much of a good thing can be bad...
Yes it is confusing. I wonder if it is that proteolysis increases with increasing acidity and that is what causes the gluten to breakdown?
Here’s a comment about nutritional yeast in that newsletter.
” To improve dough extensibility without using an autolyse, deactivated yeast can also be used. It will increase dough extensibility, improving dough and bread characteristics. Because deactivated yeast is a natural product (therefore maintaining a “clean” label) it is used more often in laminated dough and formulas of “long-shaped” breads like baguettes. It is important to remember that this type of yeast won’t generate any fermentation activity.”
Went back to basics. Baked the formula in the original post (Hamelman’s Pain au Levain). No deviation except 0.5% Nutritional Yeast. After mixing the dough, even at 68% hydration, it was a dream to handle. Slap and folds were a joy, very unlike earlier attempts without NY. I did an overnight autolyse in the fridge using only water and flour. Before retarding I was concerned that the dough was too extensible. But after removing from the bulk retard to shape, the dough handled quite nicely. There was no CY added, only raised with SD.
I love the loaf on the bottom. Would be thrilled to consistently produce loaves like that. The scoring was varied on each loaf. Still looking for the perfect slash!
Your persistence and practice has really paid off Dan. Your baguettes are really looking so perfect now. Great ears, grigné and beautiful even shaping, really stunning.
That bottom baguette is a dream. All you need to do is get that same consistency of scoring and Eric Keyser will be knocking on your door.
The others are no slouches either!
Appearance wise those are real beauties. Are you on to the next phase? Having previously captured taste and texture with the french flour and IDY. Is appearance the next trophy? I wonder if a taxidermist could preserve the bottom one to be hung above the mantle.
Don, just wanted to go back to my start. They look good but the eating is no where near French Flour.
For those seeking Instagram, don’t use French Flour. Save that for eating :-)
Is so much better now than in days past. Whatever your doing now seems to be working. So what are you doing differently? I set mine to 480 and leave it be. Doc is playing his like the Delorean time machine. Kendalm is withholding his bread until the oven is proper. Stone, steel and steaming, It's funny the different ways we cope with our ovens and how important they are to having the final say on how our bread turns out.
Don, truth be told, I’m not a fan of dark bakes. Sometimes they are pushed for neighbors and/or visual appeal. Dark has never been a problem for me. My baguette bakes start @ 550F. All baguettes bakes run between 16 - 19 minutes.
Since they are baked with huge amounts of steam, browning is also enhanced. My problem is blisters. And I have no idea why they are so difficult for me. I have the ability to throw as much steam as I wish and for as long as needed. There is something else that is hindering blisters in my case.
This is a first for me. A batch of all sourdough baguettes with a decent open crumb, distinct ears, balanced coloration top and bottom, acceptable shaping, and a nice thin crackly crust.
Image
Process capture:
388 levain (28 starter + 186 H2O + 186 BF) ; 406 H2O + 50 w/ 5g NY; 777 AP + 10g DM; 19.4 NaCl
1655g total dough weight
67% hydration, 20% pre-fermented flour
0.5% NY (5g),
1% DM (10g),
2% salt,
dissolve NY in 50g water
Add 388g levain [built with 12% protein bread flour], water, NY, DM, flour (777g Freedom’s Choice AP with 10.5% protein) (average protein 10.7% including protein in levain flour)
50 min fermentolyse w/ 110°F water (500ml; microwave 45 sec)
5 min mix, Dough temp 83°F (might get by with 4 min after the 50 min autolyse)
2:30 hr BF (from combine) w/1 fold after mixing
2 hr retard @ 40°F (to a core temperature of ~45°F)
divide into 4 x 409g aliquots
pre-shape gently
rest 30 min
Shape - not easy to roll out, lumpy and resistant to stretching
proof 1:45 at room temp
retard >45 min (1:30 this time)
transfer to pans, brush with water, sprinkle with kosher salt (1g/baguette)
bake (preheat to 525°F, 2 min @ 390°F for steam, 6 min @ 500°F 100% humidity/low fan speed, 9 min @ 430°F/20% humidity/low fan speed)
The low net protein level made a big difference and I was able to fully develop the gluten before BF requiring no folds.
Shortened the BF to 2:30 (measured from when water hits flour) because of the high dough temp and to allow for some continued fermentation during the first part of retard.
Shaping was still not what I want even with the nutritional yeast it was fighting me. Maybe I need to let it rest longer after pre-shape (suggestions here welcome).
Chilled dough handled well on the way to the oven. Don't fully understand why the bottoms are not as brown as prior batches run with the same oven program.
In a good way.
I had to look up aliquot, thanks to you. I more often find myself hitting the auto-dictionary button when I read Op-Ed pieces, and not baking blogs or comments, but always willing to try and add new vocabulary.
I'm surprised that with so much NY you had difficulty getting extensibility, especially with a gentle pre-shape.
But these look really good, and we'll both have to work a little harder on a consistent barrel where both ends have the same diameter. Otherwise a fine bake and lovely open crumb with a thin walled crust - something that you stated was less likely with a levain formula.
Recently our beloved Danni resurfaced and commented on my bake elsewhere, and this is what I wrote back:
And I think that is true. If the collective wisdom from our collaborative experiences could be harnessed into a tome, it would be close to a definitive book on the art of baguette baking.
As the recently departed and great man John R. Lewis said "Get in good trouble". Which is what is going on around here
10.7% protein, all white flour, and 67% hydration. PLUS 0.5% NY. And still not extensible. Have you used Freedom’s Choice before? Bread baking is scientific, but every bit as much art.
Last bake I tried an overnight cold autolyse, and the results were promising. Up until the dough was chilled it was way too extensible. But when it was removed the fridge for shaping it felt right and was well behaved.
Trevor Wilson will sometimes do an overnight autolyse cold, but he includes the salt when he does that. Did you include the salt in yours? Saltolyse.
A resting period after the flour has been saturated with water probably does not qualify as an autolyse if there is salt in the mix because the salt slows down the amylase enzyme activity that converts broken starch into maltose. On the other hand if you wait long enough you will still get the effect even with the inhibitor acting. In the past a baker we all know has preached that autolyse was about protease enzymes breaking down gluten, and I spent many months trying to track down any science that supported his hypothesis and came up empty. I know that many baking schools still teach it, but it just ain't so. Native protease enzymes in wheat are inactive at pH >4 and wet flour has a pH of about 6 so even though there are some, they are not active until way late in a sourdough maturation process, and even then most dough never reaches a pH of less than 4 before it is baked (a levain will but not dough). In fact I think that is probably what is going on when your old starter gets very thin after you leave it out (covered) on a warm counter for 24 hrs. The pH gets down below 3.8 (often 3.6 or slightly below) where the protease enzymes become quite active and chop up the gluten. You can stimulate it by adding a little citric or malic acid to a flour/water paste. It doesn't take very long for it to turn to goo.
So no, I don't add the salt until after the flour and water have been combined, but I do toss it on top of the combined ingredients so that I don't forget it when I mix. I do include the levain because I find no reason not to and it gets all of the liquid available to hydrate the flour which is what Professor Calvel said was important about autolyse.
thanks for this comment as it reinforces what I have learned over many years. I have to make sure I measure the salt and leave it next to the mixer while waiting for the autolyse. I note that Hamelman instructs to include a liquid levain (100 - 125% hydration) into the autolyse, but he holds off including a stiff levain (60% hydration) until after the autolyse. I suspect it for the reasons you have identified. The liquid levain contains a fair bit of water from the overall formula.
Good to know that the proteases only work when the pH is < 4, I didn’t know that. Thanks Doc. I’ve only added salt to my saltolyse one time, I otherwise do try to follow proper autolyse with only flour and water.
Doc, be careful what you say and how you say it.
For the record I don't agree that there is no observable dough degradation above pH 4. I mean have you ever worked with semola rimacinata?
@Michael - perhaps I missed something in the literature. I would really like to find a test that I could run that would exhibit a degradation that can be attributed too native protease enzymes and run it over a range of naturally occuring pH values to find the boundary. Would greatly appreciate any pointers you can provide.
Rheological testing could be used to highlight degradation over time. And testing for free amino acids is at least one way to measure any proteolytic action.
There is a paper I recall which might be useful and when I track it down I will link it...
Regarding semola rimacinata, on my thread here, I have included a snippet of a paper which shows alveograph data for this flour at 28 minutes and at 2 hours. In that short amount of time its performance has degraded significantly.
The specific piece of information that came to mind.
From: Proteolysis in sourdough fermentations: mechanisms and potential for improved bread quality
Interesting paper Michael. The proteases of the LAB are intracellular in nature. So they wouldn’t have an effect on gluten degradation at all. The LAB rely on the proteases in the grain to break the proteins down to amino acids and polypeptides which can then be transported across the cell membrane of the bacteria. Then the intracellular proteases break the peptides down to amino acids for the bacteria’s metabolic processes. The LAB are said not to have any extracellular proteases and therefore cannot affect gluten directly.
I never realized that it was the grain’s proteases that led to gluten breakdown. It is interesting also that these proteases really aren’t active until a pH of 4 or less is attained..
Another interesting point was the chart about glutathione which the nutritional yeast is rich in. It seems that high glutathione levels lead to gluten depolymerization, increase gluten solubility and increases the gluten’s susceptibility to proteolysis. This would explain why adding nutritional yeast increases extensibility in our doughs.
Also of interest to me as a physician is the fact that the proteolytic enzymes in grain are able to break down the gluten to a level theoretically low enough to reduce their effects on patients with Celiac disease. Of course they wouldn’t have any effect in commercially yeasts breads since they do not reach a pH level < 4 so commercial breads would be worse for Celiac patients. However, we do know that even sourdough bread isn’t safe for patients with true Celiac disease and not just gluten intolerance. If all the gluten was broken down then the bread might be safe, but then the bread wouldn’t be bread without the gluten.
Thanks Benny, I have read this paper a number of times previously and so I have a good grasp of the details. I might point out that as a student of oenology I have studied yeast and LAB processes at length and so I understand the distinction between intracellular and extracellular.
However, perhaps more pertinent is the table I copied in which details several native cereal enzymes including those from germinated wheat. The pH ranges for most operate above 4 and are said to display activity against gluten proteins.
Also it should be noted that the gluten matrix is considerably complex and there may be small but influential effects from other native proteases that help to create extensibility without completely degrading the gluten. This is the point I have been attempting to make. On a related note one can invoke proteolysis (specifically glutenin depolymerisation) with shear forces alone, as this is what happens when dough is mechanically overmixed.
If a starter culture never dips below 4 then LAB wouldn't be able to utilise gluten proteins which would beg the question from where would LAB attain a source of Nitrogen?
The more one looks, the more complex the answers become!
Michael, I didn’t mean to suggest the points I brought up as things you didn’t know but instead things I didn’t know and found interesting, sorry if I implied otherwise.
It is all very fascinating to me and as you said, very complex much more so than I had previously thought. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and the research that is the basis of it.
Benny
No salt, just flour and water.
Wow, they look great Doc. Thin crisp crust with sourdough only, isn’t that nirvana?
@Benny - I suspect that the key bit that made for a crisp crust was the low protein flour. This is the first time I have gone below 11% and fully developed the gluten. In the past I have been stopping the mix early to prevent full development of the gluten in 12+% flour and this time I went the other route and used a low protein flour and mixed it all the way until there were very few gluten balls on the surface of the dough. It was very extensible when I put into retard and not so extensible when it came out.
I am going to try a batch where divide and shape the room temperature dough and then proof it, and retard at the end to get it stiff enough to handle when it goes into the oven.
The flavor was great (in four parts by my analysis): the crumb tastes of the wheat, and the crust contributes flavor from each shade of brown (toast/char bitter from the darkest brown, Maillard products from the lightest shade of brown and caramelization products from the intermediate brown). The crackling crispness is the sound of really fresh bread and the aroma of the acids and fermentation products that comes with the soft crumb is just intoxicating.
I took three loaves to our Friday evening happy hour block party (socially distanced on the sidewalk and only ten at a time), and gave one to a plastic surgeon/neighbor who missed out yesterday because she had a surgery that went long and didn't respond before I had given it to somebody else.
I am still on the lookout for lower protein flour and hope to find something appropriate soonish. First I will try again with the current 12% with more NY.
Try one of the commercial AP flours that is not labled with a protein level. Gold Medal, Pillsbury, or a super market house brand should be candidates. You may be able to find out what the protein level is but the manufacturer does not make a big deal of it. For the typical customer it is "flour".
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17045/protein-content-flour#comment-261314
Being in Canada we have different flour than you guys have in the US. I saw an AP flour the other day organic that was around 10-10.5%. That seemed like it might be ideal.
I just got back from doing a grocery run and grocery stores are finally getting their shelves restocked with flour. I had a look at all the all purpose flours on the shelves. All the Canadian all purpose in stock were 13.3% protein. To get a Canadian flour around 10% you have to buy cake and pastry flour but what they had was bromated.
I did find one bag of all purpose that is unbromated and 10% protein, it is actually a Canadian brand but I noted that the flour was American. They described it as really finely ground and sifted. This might be a decent flour for baguettes.
Benny, check your local asian markets you may find some good quality Korean flour. Beksul is a big brand. they are intended for making noodles and have around 10% protein. I've made some good bread with it. there was one that was particularly light. let me see if i can find the packaging for that.
This one. package says 3g protein out of 30g service size. i think it's a finer grind.
Despite my being Asian, I never thought to check out the Korean grocery around the block from my house for flour. Great idea James, thanks.
I had a look at the Korean shop near me and unfortunately they did not have any soft wheat flour. There are others in the city that I will have to check out. I’m hoping that the new flour I am working with today for the first time will give a good result with only 10% protein.
Congratulations on the thin and crackly crust with SD. I was somewhat astonished to see 110 degree water used. I was under the impression that water temperature at those levels would harm if not kill SD culture. Is speeding up the process part of the plan to create the texture you are after. The lower protein flour is the key to thin and light as you stated. The crumb is really nice considering the lower hydration. Do you find the crust baked to golden brown instead of a mahogany russet color to be a factor in the crackly crust?
Duplicate
I have never had a problem with using warm water to get the dough temperature up to 90°F, and 110°F won't kill off either the yeast or the LAB. It might slow them down for the few seconds it takes for everything to come to equilibrium but it won't kill them. Of course every yeast and every LAB has its favorite growth temperature, but usually the LAB prefers it warm and will continue to replicate at temperatures above what the yeast will tolerate. That is actually one way to adjust the relative activity during BF and proof. I seem to remember that the Laraburu process called for a 105°F proof which (so far as I know) nobody every got to work for them.
I think that the lower protein flour probably is a significant contributor to the thin crust. And I am not so sure that the physical thickness is so thin since that is controlled by the depth to which the temperature gets up to where Maillard reactions can do their magic, but it is very crackly and behaves more like the baguettes I remember in Europe (easy to bite).
As for color, I like to have three colors of brown on a loaf because I associate each color with a different flavor. Very dark brown is on the edge of bitter and tastes of well toasted bread. Intermediate brown is where the caramelization of sugars may be the driver of flavor. And the lightest brown colored crust seems to be dominated by Maillard products and has a more complex flavor profile. Somebody should write an article on how to taste bread. I like to try to take it apart as the various components of flavor are solublized and come to both the tongue and the nose (from behind). It takes 45 sec to a full minute to find all of the pieces (if they are there).
We all seem to be heading off on different tangents or retreating to our corners when it comes to baguettes. Our quest has led us to different personal goasl of what defines the ideal. I guess having a choice is why they make so many different flavors of ice cream. Baguettes are a labor of love to make that comes with some heartbreak and ecstasy. I make them because they look so cool and I enjoy eating them. The three main reasons for me are breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Keep up the good work and enjoy the rewards.
This was a repeat of yesterday except that I did not fully chill the dough before divide and shape. Because I had something come up when I would otherwise have been doing divide/shape I stuck it in the retarder but at 65°F and not at 38°F, so I figure that it was equivalent to a 3:30 BF with a dough temperature of 67°F (vs 40°F) when it was time to divide. The desired result was achieved in that the warmer dough was more extensible and easier to pre-shape and shape. And instead of trying to fight it for final shaping I did it in two steps with a 10 min rest in between. Another small thing was to roll the dough in only one direction when stretching it (away from me) rather than comressing it in both directions. These small changes appear to have made a significant difference in the uniformity of the barrel diameter. When I got done shaping I was somewhat concerned that all of what appeared to be surface bubbles would make for malformed loaves. But as they proofed (for 1:00 on the counter and then retarded at 50°F for three hours while I was off doing something else) the irregularities disappeared. They were easy to load, easy to slash and baked up with the same crust coloration as yesterday (a slightly lighter bottom crust than I had seen prior to yesterday, and excellent coloration on top) and with nice ears and I think somewhat better crumb than yesterday. So all round a pleasing day.
The fermentolyse today was 20 minutes (vs 50 min) and I saw no difference in outcome which adds weight to the claim that 20 min is enough time to get the benefit of autolyse (no salt). The diastatic malt was also added along with the salt just to see if there was any noticeable difference and I observed none.
Tomorrow I am going to take the last step in dropping the protein content by using 100% 10.5% protein AP flour in both the levain and in the final dough.
After tomorrow I have a number of single parameter changes that I want to search through to see what the partial derivatives are in those dimensions: oven fan speed, loaf weight, slash variations, water temperature, BF duration, PFF, and mix duration/speed. And by that time my new Famag mixer should be here and the conversion from Assistent to Famag needs to be done with a stable baseline.
And here are "tomorrow" baguettes in a place where it is easier to compare with "yesterday" baguettes.
The difference is that the levain was made with the same AP flour that was used for the dough (as opposed to using a 12% protein bread flour).
The thing that I had not thought about until after these were shaped was that the bread flour that made up 20% of yesterday's batch contained ascorbic acid and the AP flour contains none. So how much of an impact can that have? At the moment I am not sure, but this batch (using 0.5% nutritional yeast and flour containing no ascorbic acid) was almost plastic and were gently pre-shaped, rested for 30 min then shaped in one stage. So my hypothesis is that there was insufficient oxidizer in the dough to cancel out the effects of the glutathione that was introduced with the nutritional yeast and thus the dough remained compliant all the way to the oven. I think the crumb is slightly more open, but not significantly so. The flavor is good, crumb texture is good. Color is good, and without the need for a 3 hr retard they were out of the oven quite a bit sooner than yesterday. I did retard them for a couple of extra hours @ 50°F while I did a Zoom chat but that was just to hold them until I could bake them rather than an essential process step. So they could have been done in six hours from flour hits water including 45 min retard prior to oven entry (plus 10 hrs to build the levain).
How do you roll them in only one direction? Do you roll them out and then pick up the dough and re-position?
They look good in all aspects...
I hope, once you get these tweaked to your satisfaction, that you splurge for French Flour. The flavor and texture is not possible (according to many bakers who have tried) with American flours. You and your wife deserve the best...
The stretch is done by moving your hands outward as you roll, at about a 15° angle I guess. But adapted to the willingness of the dough to be deformed. I use my thumbs to roll the part between my hands. I found that I needed just the right friction on the bench to get what I wanted. The rolling action allows the dough to stretch itself without you putting too much pressure on it. Adjust the direction and pressure as required. The part that is new for me is trying to do it only when I push since my thumbs are more effective in that direction. I may make a video clip if I can get organized.
And I have done the French flour thing but it was a few years ago, and I was not making baguettes. Your description of the problems you experienced mirror my experience quite accurately. As Michael points out, it may be a P/L difference.
Really beautiful baguettes Doc, I’m really impressed with the how incredibly consistent the three of them are, really impressive.
I mean Doc Consistent. They look nice and have a very precise look to them as you crank them out. Nothing beats practice and the process of elimination. Why are you passing on the mixer that I wanted and getting the one I could only dream about. I will be looking forward to your impression of the spiral and giving my Bosch the stink eye although we have learned to get along.
I got my Assistent N28 in Feb of 2011 as an upgrade from a 1974 Kitchenaid K4a (then made by Hobart, with a mechanical governor/speed control) which I have overhauled once and still have (and use). I had acquired a KA Pro 600 which I hate for a number of reasons explained elsewhere, but which I still have and use only once a year to make Liege waffles (while wearing my shooting muffs to attenuate the sound level). But while I like the N28 and can make batches of 1800g using the roller and scraper without too much trouble, I have not had good luck using the dough hook for larger batch sizes. When the Famag became available I looked at it and decided that it was too big for my available space but would be something to continue to think about. Then Danny ordered one and I decided to wait to see what his experience was. My objective is to be able to make enough dough to fill up my combi oven. With two 400g (large baguettes/small batards) per rack x 6 racks I need something that can mix 5Kg of dough. The Famag will do that. The IM-8 would be a better match but it really is too heavy to handle; the IM-5 at 66 lb is big enough (and small enough that I don't have to get the engine hoist into the pantry every time I need to move it), and I found a place where it will fit next to the oven near light and water and power and it does not need to be moved. So it went from unsuitable to promising, to wish list, to planned purchase, and now should ship in the next week or so.
I put a photo of today's batch of baguettes into the post above just so it would be close to the one from yesterday, and now that you point it out, there is really not much difference between them, so it really is about process consistency to get product consistency. Not perfect yet but that is why we keep at it, for the pure joy of making gress (hopefully pro-, but always mixed in with some di-, and some re-).
My Ank barely handles 5K. BuT even though I haven’t mixed large doughs in the Famag, I think will handle the dough much better. This is expected due to the dough moving around the ANK in a “ring” versus the rotating spiral hook and rotating bowl which will knead the dough into a tight and uniform “pumpkin shape”. You will find the Kneading process to be very thorough and gentle on the dough. The gluten development will amaze you!
These mixers are not for everyone. As stated they are super heavy. Over 4 times the weight of an ANK. The foot print, not to mention the height is not compact by any means. I broke down and pulled the trigger once it was decided that the mixer would live on a compact SS cart.
Doc, if you are often moving this manually from one place to another, you are definitely in better shape than me.
A few years ago now, i posted whatever baguette I was making at the time and stated that consistency from bake to bake was one of the most important aspects of the entire baking realm for me. To be able to do that from one bake to the next is one benchmark of quality and care.
So it's nice to see a couple of other old duffers on board here. Add to that Benny and Dan, who are both showing serious consistency from bake to bake, and we have enough to start a basketball squad with plenty of other bench help here on this thread.
Don, the Ankarsrum is a fine mixer, that should last a lifetime. There is nothing “light duty” on the machine. It’s light enough to move around at will and can sit on a home counter without hogging too much space. Mine is stored in the bottom of a cabinet in another room. Moving it to the kitchen counter is a breeze.
The Famag is so rugged it uses a chain drive instead of a belt. Think Harley Davidson...
I am working too much for an old man who would rather not be, so I have to cram all my bread baking into a weekend. In some ways it's nice having three separate doughs to focus on nearly uninterrupted rather than having all that down time waiting on a single dough. Sometimes it all goes smoothly and the breads hit the oven on schedule and then there are days like today where they came out okay but missed the mark for a variety of reasons.
Pain Au Levain, Approachable cinnamon raisin, French flour Bouabsa
I finally had one of those baguette doughs that was too elastic to shape and work with that you guys are using NY to combat. In my case the bulk ferment went too far. I should have folded it again in the fridge last night. The dough was quite strong for weak french flour and not pleasant to roll out. They weren't a disaster but not what I was hoping for except of course the flavor and texture and the crust that is in a league of it's own. I tried to use shorter slashes and do an extra cut to keep the crust shackles from bursting and tidy up things a bit. It almost worked and might work better next time with a better shape and proof.
Mashed a couple of ends and wrestled too much with them and was surprised to see any crumb intact.
A work in progress I wish I wasn't
I fished some of my pedestrian 2 year old T65 French flour from the pantry for this run. Relied on input from Dan and MT's experiences, albeit with a much higher grade of flour on their part.
Notes:
Overall, I was pleased with this bake, especially understanding that this was probably the most basic T65 flour anywhere in France. Just remembered that the flour does not have any malted barley and didn't think of adding any diastatic malt powder.
Concerns:
Alan, my guess would be that the flour is stronger than what we’ve been using. I say that because the lack of extensibility and also the strong “bridges”between the scores and the well defined ears (typical alfanso). It would be great to find that your are able to produce your typical baguettes using high quality french flour. It would surely give me something to shoot for. The baked loaves look great to me.
How would you describe the bite, crumb texture, and flavor?
The flavor is nothing particularly noteworthy. Tasty, nothing wrong with it, but doesn't carry the "sparkle" that the typical Bouabsa bread does, and certainly not in the same universe as what you L'Epiciere folks report. The crust is as anticipated. Quite thin and very crunchy, both positives, and the crumb is soft and not chewy at all.
It was a delightful dough to handle at every stage, and by the time that they came off the couche and onto the oven peel, they had already pulled back in length, probably exacerbated a little more by the bake. I wonder if this dough could benefit from even half the 0.25% N.Y.
I have enough of this flour left for a few more bakes, but not necessarily next up. Have something else in mind.
thanks, alan
I went from trying to under-mix a strong flour to fully mixing a weaker flour and I like the results better. Just my opinion, but it seems that the fully proofed baguette made with (just barely) fully developed but weak flour is less resistant to the pressure of expanding CO2 and I get a better ear, a larger diameter and a more open crumb as well as a more crisp crust and a less chewy crumb. But I don't have any quantitative data on that.
Tomorrow is a batch with a shorter BF and a little longer final proof and I am trying to hold everything else constant.
That makes sense Doc. I have been doing very little to develop gluten in the past several bakes, not doing French folds and instead doing Rubaud kneading to ensure that the salt is well incorporated and the crumb has been good. Now these have been with relatively high protein flours. I have the levain fermenting now for my first time using this 10% protein flour and it will be interesting to see how this one bakes up. This potentially maybe the first time baking baguettes with low protein flour.
Where all our baguettes look like how we make them no matter the recipe. I could match the photo of the baguette to the baker without a doubt. There is an individual expression to batons unlike any other bread. Boules and batards they all kind of look the same but baguettes are a form of hand writing not easy to change or forge.
The only advise I could offer to open up the crumb would be a little more proof, a little more water and about 195 fewer FF's My french flour like my american flour develops quickly after a short mix and a couple of folds before retarding. In hot weather like now a fold in the fridge has become necessary to keep the dough from blowing up. The long time in the fridge will develop gluten on it's own without a lot of kneading that can make the dough too tight and elastic and cause it to retract.
You really should try the Kendalm flour. The shipping cost from RI would be minimal compared to moving to France like I am contemplating.
For those desiring very open crumb in a baguette, there is much to be learned from Don’s post above. If you take the time to search out his bakes it becomes obvious that not only are his baguettes uniquely his, but the crumb is consistently open, and the cell structure is evenly dispersed. Many of us are attaining open crumb, but few are consistently producing even distribution.
The 2 most important takeaways
And really a third, Don has consistently mentioned this throughout the CB. “Increase the hydration”.
My thoughts and response to each.
The above are my current thoughts. But like all other current thoughts, these are subject to change whenever more convincing ideas come to light. Please share your thoughts so that together we can improve our baguettes skills...
Danny
My personal challenge is to attain a consistently open and uniform crumb as Don’s, BUT at the same time produce gorgeous and pronounced ears similar to Alan. This will be no small feat. And, I’m not sure both can be produced simultaneously. That explanation would require a separate post.
“2. Fermentation, a catch 22. If we BF too thoroughly, it gasses up the dough, making the difficult job of shaping much more difficult. Since the shaping process of baguettes are more hands on than other shapes, preserving the cell structure and fermentation gas are challenging. With that in mind, is it better to limit the BF? Then handle the dough during division, pre-shape and shaping with the idea that the Final Proof is where the cell structure and gas are produced with the possibility of leaving most of it intact?”
So, how do we score these warm and fully proofed dough? I envision warm, slack, relaxed narrow and long baguettes daring me to touch them in any way. Knowing that as soon as the blade is pulled across the skin it is going to wrinkle, stick, and resist in every way possible.
I say cheat! Put the shaped and couched dough Back into the fridge or freezer until it firms up. I’ve done it. It works...
I think ears and an open crumb are not mutually exclusive. You can have both and that is my goal as well. As far as hydration goes all other things being equal otherwise the higher hydration will have a more open crumb. It's a balance point just like the fermentation is. The french term of la pointage for the bulk is a perfect description of the point in the curve when the dough is right for the bread you are making. With yeasted dough that is a sharper point than with SD.
I don't consider my crumb to be that much more open than some of the other CB bakers except for what the slightly higher hydration I use provides. The real masters like Kristen from Fullproof ( it would be interesting to see her tackle baguettes someday) or the Tartine bakers use an even higher percentage of water. An open crumb has to be the goal going in to succeed at it. It rarely just happens. Unless your name is Benito ;-)
Scoring a chilled dough is not cheating in any way. I just don't have the room for it in our fridge. I worry that the crust could be affected by the chilling or drying so I just gash and hope. I do shoot for a less than full proof with baguettes. When I see faint gray bubbles inside the dough that is when they hit the oven.
I have been under developing the dough, only using some Rubaud kneading to ensure that the salt is fully incorporated then doing just the two coil folds.
Regarding bulk fermentation I have been bulk fermenting to 30% rise in the aliquot jar and given that there are only two coil folds, this should correlate quite well with the rise in the main dough. I do have a dough in cold retard now that I will bake later today that I allowed to bulk further to 35-40% rise to see if that has any effect.
In regards to hydration, when I have tried hydrations over 70% for baguettes I seemed to have more issues with shaping because of stickiness. Then overflouring the bench/dough to resolve the stickiness and having the dough slide on the bench. As a result for now I will stick to hydrations closer to 68% until I have more experience shaping with more confidence.
I’m still hoping that with good fermentation, good shaping building tension and then good scoring I too can attain good ears and open crumb together.
Too much to digest on the screen, so I just printed out this piece of the thread to review, cross reference and highlight.
And this, damas y caballeros, is what TFL renders. Where else, okay maybe somewhere else, on the internet can we find a detailed discussion and problem solving session dedicated uniquely to baguettes?, although the implications are further-reaching*.
We seem to have whittled ourselves down the the last remaining bastion on this long-playing focus, although I'm certain that others are still peeking in from time to time. The "hard-core" tenacious few. There likely isn't a book in print that delves so deeply into this one aspect of baking, and books certainly don't afford an interactive discussion on the merits and downfalls of run after run. And I doubt that an in-person training session or class would bother to be so baguette oriented run after run after run. Bravo to us!
Thanks all - you know who you are. alan
*farther vs. further. Had to get the distinction clear and this is what I found. But will I remember it?...
"People use both further and farther to mean “more distant.” However, American English speakers favor farther for physical distances and further for figurative distances."
AP flour 10% protein (PC brand)
No NY used, 1% diastatic malt, IDY and levain all dissolved in water. Then mixed the flour. 67% hydration approximately. Rubaud and bowl kneading done x 5 mins. Two sets of coil folds done at 50 mins intervals good windowpane after second set.
Aliquot jar rise to 35-40% then into fridge for cold retard overnight.
This flour without the NY is quite extensible. Next time pre-shape as a loose boule instead of loose roll.
After shaping left 20 mins room temperature rest in the couche.
My final shaping is much more successful when I pre-shape as a boule. With this low protein flour I think I can get away with it and still get the baguettes long enough without needing to pre-shape as a roll.
Looking forward to your gorgeous open crumb!
OK here’s the crumb. Fortunately despite the meh shaping the crumb is good. This flour is pretty good all around. Nice clean wheat flavour with a thin crisp brittle crust, I’m pretty happy with this. I’ll keep my eyes out for good and proper T55 or T65 but I’ve been looking and not finding.
One thing I’d love to see one of you guys do, is see you do your pre-shape in a roll. The way I’m doing it is causing problems with shaping such that the only times I happy with the shaping is when I pre-shape as a boule. For this flour being quite extensible I think will work out fine, but less extensible flours my pre-shaping leads to fat ends and thin mid sections. I did bulk fermentation this time in my square shallow Pyrex dish which I use for my usual sourdough because it is ideal for coil folding. The idea being that I would divide them quite evenly in three rectangles which then could be rolled. So how would you go about turning these into a loose roll as the pre-shape. I’ve been folding the ends into the middle and then rolling, I don’t think this is working because when I go to shape and stretch it out a bit the overlapping ends open apart leaving my with less dough in the midsection leading to the fat ends in then final baguettes.
Even though the images don’t have enough resolution to examine the cell structure after zooming in, it looks like your crumb is once again outstanding. You and Doc have made great strides In that area. Don has produced very nice crumb for quite some time. But to be honest, your crumb is my goal. And IMO, your ears are the nicest in combination for the excellent crumb. You are producing something that I want to emulate.
Please go into extreme detail as to how you think this crumb is produced. I’m going to have to break out the aliquot jar again...
I think a few factors go into getting the crumb based on what everyone has contributed in this massive CB. The basics I believe are lower protein flour and less dough development and then in final shaping iron fist in a velvet glove. With Abel’s formula and Alan’s instructions, I dissolve the levain, IDY and diastatic malt in the water then add the flour. I mix the flour until it just comes together, I don’t do any kneading of any kind. After a 20 mins rest, sprinkle salt on and add some water to dimple and squeeze the dough until the salt is added, then Rubaud kneading gently for about 3-4 mins and until I cannot feel any salt. I remove a small portion of the dough at this point for the aliquot jar which then sits next to the Pyrex dish the dough is then placed in to rest 50 mins. Then two sets of coil folds 50 mins apart. That’s it for dough handling. Then I wait until the aliquot jar this time reached 35-40% rise, up to now I left it until 30% rise but I wanted to see what the dough handling would be like going further and also see if the crumb would be more open. Then cold retard.
Because of work schedule, the dough was left in the fridge set to 2ºC for about 24 hours. I set the oven to 500ºF and then take the dough out of the fridge and divide. This is where I run into problems with pre-shaping. I think I’ve done best for final shaping when pre-shaping a boule but this time with the dough in a square Pyrex I decided I’d try to do a loose roll. Flipping the dough out onto a floured counter I divided into three equal rectangles weighed and portioned to be about 280 g each. I then do a letter fold with the ends to the middle and then rolled loosely. Left to sit on the counter in my warming kitchen for 20 mins. Each pre-shaped dough is flipped stretched trying to achieve a rectangle and then shaped fairly firmly attempting to get a bit of tension on the shaping. For two of the doughs unfortunately the ends were much fatter than the centers in shaping so I had a bit of the dumbbell shape happening. The third one seeing this was happening I letter folded each end in to try to get it more even before shaping. This extra manipulation ultimately degassed that one baguette a bit too much and one of the finished baguettes was flattish on one end.
Each was placed in the lightly floured couche and left to bench rest for an additional 20 minutes at which time I was going to place them in the fridge until the oven was up to temperature but the oven was ready within 10 mins of the bench rest starting. They were flipped out onto the transfer board and placed onto parchment. Flour was brushed off and they were scored. At this point I had intended to brush water on to get a bit of a shine but I forgot. They were loaded onto the usual baking steel setup with the steaming gear on the upper rack. Baked for 13 mins at 500ºF then steaming removed, temperature dropped to 480ºF and convection turned on to ensure steam released fully. After 5 mins turned and switched places on the steel, doing this again after another 5 mins. Temperature dropped to 350ºF and finished baking after another 3 mins.
I’m not sure what it is that I am doing that is different, but that is what I did with this bake. The crumb is a bit better than the last couple and perhaps pushing the bulk a bit was helpful for that along with the longer bench time after pre-shape and shape.
Wow! What crumb. I'm thinking of jailbreaking, coming to Toronto, and holding you hostage (I travel with my own masks!) until I can learn the secrets of your crumb. And regardless of what you say, the overall look of the baguettes is fabulous and the crumb is consistently the equal or superior to just about anyone else's - anywhere.
You've achieved in making a pan de cristal with a way lower hydration.
Boy, talk about fast trackers.
Alan, I’ve witnessed this very same metamorphosis with Benny’s batards. One day he is struggling with the rest of us and then, what seems like all of a sudden he is producing superb results.
He seems like an “overnight wonder”. It just took him a year or so of persistence to get there... :-)
Benny, talk about the degree of Final Proof. you are clear about the 30 and 35-40% increase as observed in the aliquot jar.
You have produced uniform and open crumb with various flours, so it seems that either your shaping and/or your Final Proof is the key. Please elaborate.
One other thing. And quit possibly the most important. You have consistently mentioned that you are very conscientious of not over developing the gluten. As a matter of fact is appears closer to no-knead than anything else. It is possible that the lack of gluten development is allowing cell expansion during the bake.
Give us the scoop, Doc!
”inquiring minds want to know”...
So final proof after the cold retard, which I suspect the length of which doesn’t do anything specific, at least I don’t think so. I’m thinking, without any scientific evidence, that the warmth of my kitchen during the bench time of dividing, pre-shape and then shaping and resting in the couche could be allowing the yeast sometime to get active again and create more gases to raise the bread and create the openness.
I wonder about the gluten development and was thinking that developing the gluten less might allow more open crumb for baguettes. However, I did do windowpane tests after each of the two coil folds and the first almost pulled a decent windowpane and then the second one I was able to get a good windowpane. So despite doing so little to the dough, it still had good gluten development.
I’ve mentioned before that whenever I feed my starter only white flour that it rises much more slowly than when I feed it anything else. So with this bake I added a tiny amount of rye to get the levain to rise better. Even with that and the tiny 0.07% IDY the dough takes its time to get to 35-40% in the aliquot jar. I didn’t time it, but I know that my other sourdough breads with more whole grain in it take less time to get to 40% rise in the aliquot jar than these baguette doughs. So I don’t know if that contributes anything, but the bulk fermentation is a bit on the slow side, compared to what I think most others would see using this formula.
Not sure what else to tell you, I’m really happy with how far I’ve come along, but sometimes I think I’m an imposter/pretender and that you guys will figure out soon that I really don’t know what I’m doing.
Is that the rye from your starter I see in the crumb? Or is my screen that dirty? The crumb looks more like SD than a yeasted bread. The long retard must help to aerate the crumb is my guess. You are definitely creeping into ciabatta territory. Nice work they look like the definition of open crumb.
Don you have a good eye, my starter is 100% whole red fife and I did spike 5 g of whole rye into the levain build for this bake so although your screen may be dirty you did spy some rye in the crumb.
@ Benny - your crumb is beyond compare. I am working to emulate your results.
Here is today's run. Better shaping and a little more open crumb (chasing Benny). The upper two were baked on the baseline oven program while the bottom two were run on high convection fan speed for the first 8 minutes and they were in the oven for only 10 min of the baseline 17 min profile (which means they did not get the last 7 minutes @ 430°F/low fan speed). They were getting too brown so I pulled them to cut my losses.
The dough was still quite soft and somewhat difficult to handle, there was no preshaping to speak of, just fold them over and let them sit for 20 min so that they were fully stuck together at the fold, then tighten them up and roll them out. Two of the four needed a short rest and a second stage of lenthening to reach 20", but a one minute rest was enough and once they got to 20" they did not rebound.
Note that the slash did not open well on the two that were baked at high fan speed. I think that the surface may have been so well cooked by the time the heat got in deep and the oven spring started to expand strongly that it could not break open at the slash. So this might be a case of too much early heat and might suggest that a lower start temperature or fan off in a convection oven might produce a better result (let oven spring get started before increasing the heat transfer to the crust).
Doc your shaping looks great, I’m amazed that you achieved that nice even cylindrical shaping with so little manipulation in shaping and essentially very little pre-shaping.
Very interesting that you baked them two different ways and the resulting differences in the final baguettes. I didn’t think that you could maintain enough steam in the oven if you had the convection setting on, is that not correct?
The oven is German and sealed so once there is steam in the oven it does not leave until a valve or the door gets opened. And once the steam generator is up to temperature it makes lots of steam (15KW). The convection fan is a~15" diameter 1/6 HP squirrel cage blower with four modes: high speed, low speed, and intermittent with either speed. Box humidity and temperature are independent variables except that there is not enough power to run both the box heaters and the boiler at full power simultaneously so I have come up with some programming tricks to do what I want.
For your shaping, I was where you are a few weeks ago. Cutting off a narrow rectangle made for a loaf that was too long without folding it over. The best solution I found (before I abandon that approach) was to cut off a strip and fold it in half lengthwise, then fold it in half the short way and let it rest for a while. Then tighten it up and roll it out.
Eventually I decided that cutting the dough into quarters and pre-shaping like a batard yielded a better final shape. But it depends on the hydration and how far you push the BF. The long cold BF was not doing much for me so I switched to a long (but less long) warm BF then a retard to improve handling qualities then pre-shape cold and then final shape while still quite cool. But the cold dough was fighting me and did not want to stretch even with 0.5% NY. Then I decided to try doing pre-shape and shape while warm and then proof and then retard to make it easier to transfer to the oven. That is where I am now. But I have a big set of experiments to run to make sure I am close to optimized before my new mixer arrives and I begin to transition.
I think there is a way to thread the needle and do BF at a lower temperature, then pre-shape and shape at mid 60°s but the process time will be longer which doesn't fit my schedule well. So I may need to completely rework the timeline but not before I get the new Famag.
The oven cycle may benefit from some further optimization as well, but that is something that I could do by running four different cycles on a single batch of dough. Maybe start at 350°F/(low speed - intermittent fan) and a lot of steam for time T1 (a few minutes) and after the slash begins to rip, turn up the temperature to 500°F and crank up the fan to high for an additional time T2, then vent the steam and finish browning.
Doc your crumb advancements have been remarkable as of late. I have actually browsed images through all 4 pages of the CB, 1195 replies at this time. The improvements by participating bakers have been nothing short of phenomenal! Maybe once you are satisfied with your crumb goal, you can try baking them in your home oven or remove the bells and whistles from your Rational. If the same open crumb is achievable, it would be great to have you document the process. Your Rational oven is way out of our baking capabilities so our results may be quite different from yours.
It seems that as we refine our baguette goals that 2, maybe 3 goals surface.
Flavor seems easily achievable by choosing SD and/or CY. And it seems that flour is of outmost importance. It appears the flavor is more easily attained than the top 3 points.
I am thinking about trying it in my other oven once I get the design optimized for a new steam generator. I need to test it as it would be used. At the moment I am looking for cheap metal trays of usable size and shape. I think I have a scaleable mechanism that will put a fixed amount of water onto your lava rock a delayed time after you shut the oven door. It is another one of those round tuits.
Doc, be sure to notify me when you figure out the delayed water for the Lava Rocks. A big problem with the Lava Rocks is losing huge amounts of steam to the atmosphere when pouring water in.
Even on the bottom baguette, the clean scoring is evident. My personal leanings are toward a darker bake, but one can't quibble with what these look like.
alan
I too like a darker bake, but have not yet figured out the right approach to keep the bottom from burning (using12x 20" Teflon-coated perforated aluminum sheets). Have tried putting a piece of foil under the dough but that is too much and it sticks to the crust even if lightly oiled. Have not tried a polished aluminum perforated 1/2-sheet or a jellyroll pan with quarry tile lining. There is a way to control the timing of the heat, I just have not figured it out yet.
On the other hand it is pretty good as it is, so my motivation is weak.
I virtually never burn the bottoms. But I max out between 460-480, as experience has taught me to steer clear of kendalm's 550 and even Dan's 500. I have a convection feature in my oven, and I've yet to figure out how to use it. But, hey, it's only been about 4 years now.
Since the first half of the bake is on parchment, removed when I release the steam, I'm certain that it acts as an insulator, which likely helps avoid that burned underside.
I find the whole venture pretty darned exciting, with a few folks like you and Michael Wilson taking the studious scientific approach, Dan taking the "OCD" perfectionist approach, Benny bringing his stethoscope to the game, and MT turning out superior quality baguettes like clockwork. And then on the low end, there's me, who pays close attention and work a step or three above the seat-of-the-pants approach. But I am super anal about scaling of ingredients and paying attention to detail.
And when I began baking at home sometime in mid 2014, I decided to concentrate on baguettes, for two reasons. I love the crust to crumb ratio, and I wanted the challenge. And now you folks are infected as well!
likewise mine never burn at 550. but to fair thr oven temp is probably 500 or a tad under by the time the loaves go in. i also throttle down ealy (while going through the max dynamic pressure <- space shuttle reference). im just looking for pop and also tend to underproof by a tad. so yeah, stones dont burn bread like a metal sheet does ;)
You’ll recall I was having problems early on with burnt bottom crusts, even at 480ºF. Then Doc suggested adding aluminum foil to my setup. So now with crumpled aluminum foil in the broiling rack and the baking steel on top of that, the bottom crusts never burn even at 500ºF and the broiling rack set up on the lowest oven rack. I am a bit surprised at how well those sheets of crumpled aluminum foil work to further shield the bottom crusts. Now I just keep the whole broiling rack set up in the oven and when I bake my batards, the dutch oven goes on top of the broiling rack as well and again the bottom crusts get a good shade of brown without burning.
I just looked up the thermal diffusivities for aluminum and granite/brick
So your granite slab may hold a lot of heat but it doesn't give it up quickly, while the aluminum holds less but absorbs it quickly and gives it up quickly too - like from one side through to the other.
So I should be looking for my stack of 1/4" quarry tiles
Further reduced bulk fermentation to 2:00 with a dough temperature starting at 84.8°F and finishing at 81°F. Slightly shorter mix time today (3:30 vs 4:00 yesterday) and I may have paid a price for that slight undermixing, though it had pulled itself off the sides and bottom of the bowl before I quit. Dough was on the sticky side of workable but with minimal flour I was able to divide and preshape, and after a 20 min rest (which it probably didn't need) I was able to tighten it up and roll out a decent baguette. A 2:00 room temperature final proof and a 2:00 retard for timing made them ready to bake when I was ready. Two oven cycles today, one was the baseline time and temperature but with the pan containing the baguettes sitting on a layer of 3/8" quarry tile that was sitting on an oven rack (I could not find my 1/4" stack of 6"x6" quarry tile so these were 3/8" x 4" x 8" on a 13" x 21" rack. The fan speed for the first batch was low and high for the second batch. The result was a lighter bottom crust for both batches (but too light to get full flavor out of the final bread). So the current baseline is still the best option (until I find something better). The high fan speed was not invoked until after the slashes had started to open (successful strategy) but the ears were not great for either batch so I may decrease the hydration a couple of percent and see what that does. The crumb is not as uniform as it was yesterday and I suspect that is due to insufficient mixing and probably more difficult handling at final shaping. The dough is quite soft when dividing so that would benefit from a little cooler dough temperature which would mean a longer bulk fermentation.
I pulled a 32g sample after completing the mix and weighed it at multiple points during the last 1:30 of BF. It lost 100mg of CO2 which is about 0.44% of the weight of the flour (0.26% of dough weight) which should be accurate enough to use as a monitor for a slower/lower temperature bulk ferment. If this technique is successful it will offer a definitive way to achieve the same bulk fermentation end point without using time and texture to decide when it is done. The fermentation seems to be quite rapid and for a 28g sample to lose 100mg in 90 min the resolution is about 1% which seems incredibly precise to me. And the sample size could be as large as 110g so the accuracy might be increased by a factor of 4 if that turns out to be important.
Next batch will be a little lower hydration and a slightly different oven cycle.
This CB has come a long way, and all ideas put in practice could actually be the most complete compendium on baguette baking available online. I have made a simple post in the beginning, and then stepped back and enjoyed the discussions. So today I wanted to share some pictures of the baking I just finished using yeast water levain. The recipe is the same as described in the beginning of this CB (except that I used equal amounts of WW and rye), but instead of sourdough levain I used yeast water made of fresh crushed grapes. Overall, it was a pretty good bake with nice crumb, crisp crust and mild taste that traces back to grapes. Apparently I have not made progress on shaping these hybrid crossing between batards and baguettes.
I don't see a single thing wrong with them. And you've just introduced a brand new aspect to the conversation by using YW. Yeah, the conversations around here have been quite involved, a lot of valuable navel-gazing. And I see you agreeing that this is potentially the world's finest in depth baguette learning adventure in the history of mankind, if not the universe since before man existed.
Although Mr. Hamelman had no Idea when he published this formula as a pan au levain boule/batard, it does seem to be just about an ideal combination for taking the simple but elegant baguette de tradition to another level entirely.
Thanks for keeping the flame lit!
Peter, you have achieved excellent ears on those baguettes, the shaping is quite even, I’m impressed. However, much more impressive is the open crumb and the fact that you’ve made the first yeast water baguettes that I’ve seen. The crumb really is great.
Do you fully develop the gluten or not? I ask because I’m wondering if fully developed gluten (intense machine mixing, or many slap & folds, etc) might strengthen the gluten too the point where even and open cell structure is more difficult to attain.
Thanks Alfonso and Benny, I have seen great in-depth analysis in the comments. I agree with Alfonso 100% that this is the most valuable collection of know-how on the matter in the universe. It is also the first time I use YW for baguettes. I am very surprised with the crumb, needless to say it is the best I ever achieved.
Dan, I have not developed gluten at all. Autolysed for one hour, mixed levain, and waited another 20 min to add salt. Did some quick kneading to make sure salt was integrated. After that I applied two sets of stretch and fold in 40 min intervals, and that was it. I had to put the dough in the fridge for two hours during bulk fermentation because I had to do something outside. I pre-shaped and bench rested for 20 minutes, de-gassed quite a bit during final shaping, but still got a nice crumb.
Nice looking loaves. Introducing a new leavening idea to this CB is like a breath of fresh air. How was the taste? How was the crust? The crumb looks great.
Thanks MT for the comments. The taste was quite mild without sourness due to the YW. There was a subtle sweetness note to the crumb which I attribute to the fresh grapes used to make the YW. I think the crust was thinner than my first trial using sourdough, but it was at the same time quite crispy and crackling.
Good morning, friends.
A little twist on Silvia's towel. The only down side, I can only bake two baguettes at a time due to the height. If this actually works, I will cut the lip off one of the pans so it can slip inside of the bottom pan. Smile. #Necessityisthemotherofinvention
Very Ingenious, Will!
That is a great idea. You may need to elevate the baguette apparatus to keep from having moisture from the towel.
Do you have any of those black paper clips for securing the top and bottom?
I hope there is enough resident heat to make steam and at the same time not rob the heat from the dough. Look forward to seeing your results...
As it happens the baguette pan is hits the slopped ends of the pan and is supporter about an inch off the bottom. Yes I have the clips your talking about. I am curious to see the results also. The one pan two baguette bake will be directly of the superheated pizza steel I am thinking I will pre-heat the bottom pan, with the towel then drop the baguette pan in, add 8 oz. boiling water cover and bake
In another thread, Ciabatta had purchased a large steaming tray, the type restaurants use, that he was going to use to trap steam over 3-4 loaves baking on a baking stone. The steaming tray like your aluminum trays was shiny. He ran into problems with the loaves being unable to brown. In the end it was discovered that the shiny tray was too reflective and in fact the temperature inside the upside down tray enclosing the baking dough didn’t reach a high enough temperature. Ciabatta (James) purchase a temperature probe and was able to measure that the outside temperature of the oven was significantly higher than that inside the tray.
I hope your set up doesn’t run into the same issues that James ran into. Thread here - Whole Oven Cloche
I thought about this, and determined that it is going to be very difficult to reconcile, both a very high heat at the beginning of the bake, and a fully enclosed repository, to trap steam. What I have decided is two fold.
1. look to baguette skin tension, shaping and slashing as the main stumbling block
2. Use a simpler method to help trap some extra steam directly on the baguettes.
My solution or the steaming apparatus is simple indeed. I will use only one pre-heated over turned tray a top the baguette pan. The pan will sit directly on a 16" round pizza steel. This will leave the underside some what open. On the rack directly below will be the steam source. At this point I am thinking #1 is the main issue. If I can correct/ improve that area, my baguettes will improve too. Once I can honestly say I am doing the best I can with the challenges in #1, then and only then will I look elsewhere. (Now that I have the pan, I will give one pan a whirl)
It is definitely worth a try to see if it works, maybe because your aluminum trays are thinner than what James used the heat will still penetrate your set up. I just wanted to bring it to your attention since I saw the trouble he had with it in case it was applicable to you, I didn’t mean to discourage your ingenuity.
From home baking ace Steve B. at breadcetera.com . His method for steaming. Basically a hotel pan with a hole drilled into it. He uses a small hand help steamer's nozzle inserted into the hole.
If the seal is good you may not even need the towel. Just a little water in the bottom might do it. When do we find out how it worked?
The flour is at the tail end of a two hour Autolyse, the sour biga is at the ready (8hr second build ferment)
I am smack in the middle of a fairly large out door project. Pouring 20 yards of concrete and building a 12x24’ covered work area.
I’ll be back...
when I do it will be with a keen focus on Benny’s crumb. My first idea is to do as close to no-knead as possible. Maybe it is the less developed gluten that is allowing the cell expansion.
Both you and Benny are not developing the gluten up front. And both of you are producing excellent crumb. I am sitting at my computer preparing a new spreadsheet as I write this. Next baguette bake will have the gluten developed along the lines of you and Benny.
If you decide to crawl down this bunny hole in search of the perfect baguette, we welcome you with open arms. It looks like this CB has a life of it's own.
I have been working towards a more tidy scoring pattern that doesn't tear apart the strip of crust that holds the grigne in the elliptical shape. I don't know what it's called but it is like the open crumb is being shackled by this thin strip of crust. That is my dilemma. I prefer the open crumb but still want the neat appearance of the slashes not bursting the baton open. I keep meaning to do one long score down the length to see what happens to the crumb. My plan was to use shorter cuts in a 19 inch stick I got 7 slashes but some bursting still occurred. Perhaps it's a shaping issue or they are under proofed.
This weekend I used the divine french flour again and the Bouabsa recipe with similar results. The bulk was left on the counter too long by mistake and the dough needed a couple more folds in the fridge to degas it and get it chilled. The shaping went well and the super duper peel is working well and the edge helps to straighten them out on the stone. I an also trying to achieve the graceful taper. Which is a challenge on another level that my left hand doesn't get.
I pushed the hydration to 74% which is about the limit for me with this flour. The flavor of this flour is incredible even the burnt ends have a special taste and the crust is like no other.
Excellent crumb and beautiful crust color. Your shaping has been quite consistent throughout bakes.
These are up to your usual high standards for baguettes but just in long form Don. Crumb is also nice and open, great job at the longer baguette.
I’ve done some good, done some ugly, but this one was definitely bad :-(
I wanted to try Benny’s baguettes, so Able’s Baguette au Levain was the choice. A new french flour (T80) was used. Benny’s method was followed closely. But T80 at that hydration was a mess. Shaping was terrible. The baguette crumb looked bad and tasted worse. I have grown extremely fond of a thin crust and soft chew. SD doesn’t give me that.
Either the dough will require more gluten development or the hydration will need to be lowered. It was confirmed that I am not a fan of sourdough baguettes, even at small amounts of pre-fermented flour. Unless I learn something new, baguettes that suit me utilize commercial yeast with no hint of SD.
To the connoisseur, the baguettes are not eatable. But the birds will love them.
Benny has mastered that formula, but the french flour didn’t work out for me. So back to Bouabsa or Louis L’mour’s Baguette au Tradition Francaise.
I also learned that the T80 is not a good choice for levain. After it had fully matured the levain was soupy and the gluten was broken down. Note to self, “use American flour for starters and levains”.
Update - after giving this some thought, the levain may have over-fermented since the T80 contains a large amount of bran. I don’t think that was the case, though. From what I’ve learned thus far, it seems that french flour is not the best choice for long fermentation and levains or starters that mix high ratios like 1:5:5. The ~12 hr fermentation breaks down the gluten.
I hope they like it if they can jackhammer through that crust. Maybe a herron or a woodpecker could open it up for the smaller birds to enjoy. The deer around here have come to expect my failures and stale heels. That dough might have made a nice boule or batard. Which reminds me how did the big pour of concrete go? I am imagining a bake shop with a wood fired oven and a large store room for hoarded french flour and razor blades. I was thinking of using Evian bottled water to take the Moulin Auguste to the next level.
I have been messing around with local Italian spring water these last two bakes. Here are the anecdotal results. The first bake was 100% aqua di Fiuggi. The second bake, when I opened the bottle, to my dismay, I realized I picked up the sparkling variety by mistake. I used about a 1/3 of the final dough water from the first uncarbonated bottle and the rest NYC tap water. I noticed no difference in the end result.
Now here is a question. If one was to use naturally carbonated water in a dough , would artificially infusing co2 improve the dough? Is this a thing? Alternatively would it kill the dough or possibly have no effect at all? Did I just invent a radical new technique?
Smile...
Infusing Co2 using carbonated water
Don, you made a statement early on in this CB that made me think. Basically, “sourdough makes a thicker crusted, tougher chewing crumb”. After more than 20 consecutive baguettes bakes during this CB, it is crystal clear how true that statement is. I love SD flavor. If baguettes turned out with the same thin crust and chew using SD, it could well be my preference. For baguettes, commercial yeast is my resounding choice. But for 99% of my other breads, its long fermented sourdough all the way.
The T80 levain turned to soup at maturity. The best and worst characteristic of french flour is that it is very delicate. But nothing I know of produces a baguette of comparable quality. It has spoiled me for anything else when it comes to baguettes.
Today’s forecast is sunny for today, so cement pour first things this morning...
Hey Dan, what do you think contributed to the result? You used T80 flour, do you think this led to the baguettes having more of a whole grain flavour and thus more sourdough like flavour which I agree I wouldn’t like either. The best results for flavour with Abel’s formula have been when using fully white flour, the set I made recently with flour erroneously label led T55 but which had a lot of bran in it definitely weren’t my favourite.
I’m disappointed for you, I was hoping that you’d like Abel’s formula as I have. For me, it has just a bit more complexity without having a strong sourdough flavour.
Yep, the T80 is a radically different flour from T65. There is no comparison between the 2. Of course the Le Moulin d'Auguste brand is what I’ve used for comparison. I assume that not all T65 and T80 french flour is the same.
I keep trying SD baguettes and after tasting the CY only baguettes they all disappoint. Taste are highly subjective, but that’s my preference.
Because I like SD so much, I keep going back to try another version.
Dan I can’t help but thinking that it was the flour you chose to use with this formula. I love sourdough but don’t love sourdough flavour in my baguettes and I get none of that really with this, only the greater complexity of sourdough. But as you say, everyone has their own tastes so you have to do what makes you happy.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65286/spiral-baguette
Interview and work of Mahmoud M'seddi, the young baker who won the competition in 2018.
His technique is unlike what we generally think of. Not a poolish dough. A 3 hour autolyse and a what seems like a long 1st speed mix with bassinage before switching to 2nd. Then rests the dough in the mixer for 1 hour, before pulling it out of the mixing bowl. An immediate S&F in the tub, and maybe another, and it is eventually placed into retard until the following day. Baked at 515dF for 19 minutes. No formula given.
Is this pre Raymond Calvel , or post Raymond Calvel? Boy oh boy, you give this "kid" a little information he really runs with it! LOL. I kill me! Okay no more posting today I am a bit tipsy! (Vacation)
That's my method! (Almost) Stolen from the Generations of Sothern Italian bakers for sure! Shame on the French! Tisk, tisk!
It is interesting that he describes the ideal crust as being thick, I wouldn’t want a thick crust on my baguette. The crust he shows doesn’t look thick though.
I wonder what the mechanism is that spits out perfectly round slender batons. Something like a cigarette rolling apparatus? The robots are going to replace us and leave us nothing to do but eat what they make. I do like his idea of what the crumb should look like.
It will be interesting to try the “light test”.
I bet he mis-spoke about the “thick crust”. Thin and crispy seems a better descriptor.
Yeah you're probably right, he likely misspoke.
The Maltese summer time, breakfast, lunch, brunch or dinner. Rats, I ran out of anchovies!