This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
The wife and I have not been on a nice drive/daytrip in ages. Sounds like a plan! Fyi, seems his diastatic malt has sucrose, I'll stick with my friend Mr. Ginsburg, over at the NY Baker, for that ingredient. thanks guys, I guess I best stick with the regular, I don't want to shock my system with to much natural stuff! Smile...
never purchased the organic mostly because i so satisfied with the regular. side note i have a small bag of canadian T55 which im really excited to try. if theres one other place on planet earth where you can get amazing baguettes its in canada and more specifically montreal now that i have a new dedicated bread oven will hopefully have some flour reviews on the way.
I’ll be very interested in your review Geremy since I live in Canada and should have access to these flours. The first T55 flour i did use and haven’t been able to get again was Canadian it turns out and not French.
hust waiting for a rofco steam tray to arrive then will give it a shot. outside of france wiuld have to say Canada has some amazing baguettes particularly in monteal. i think you are in toronto right ?
Yes I am in Toronto Geremy. Funny back in the day, it has been some years, when I was in Montreal last, the only bread I had was bagels. Montreal is really known for their amazing fire oven bagels, I didn’t know and have never heard that they were known for their baguettes.
its of course a known that montreal bagels are incredible. theres a place in plateau called monsieur pinchot that used to have amazing baguettes but recently got new managment and not so great anymore. last time inwas there in november i went hunting and discovered several other places. off the baking topic though schwartz's smoked meat - incredible !
Schwartz’s is so well known for their Montreal Smoked Meat on Rye sandwiches, yumm.
I decided to bake another set of baguettes using a new AP flour I found that is a bit lower in protein listed as 12%. In the end the T55 which probably was mislabeled had a bit too much of a whole grain flavour for baguettes for me.
i followed Abel’s formula again this time with 67% hydration. I dissolved the 0.25% NY, 0.5% diastatic malt, 0.07% IDY and Levain 9% PFF in the water rye mixed the flour. 20 mins later adding salt and mixed for 5 minutes with Rubaud. Then two sets of coil folds at 50 minute intervals and ended BF when 30% rise. Cold retard en bulk until next day. Preheated oven 500ºF and divided and preshaped dough in a loose boule. Rested 10 minutes then shaped. Shaping went well except that they did contract and shorten so aren’t as long as I had hoped, seems to be the way with my baguettes either too long or too short. Next time with this flour I would shape as a loose roll instead. I left them to bench rest 20 minutes in the couche then put them in the fridge. Once the oven was ready they were scored and baked at 500ºF with steam for 13 minutes then steam vented and convection turned on leaving the temperature at 500ºF. Baked another 13 minutes.
Not the best crumb I’ve had that would have been with the T55 flour but overall steps forward with shaping I think. I’m doing better with the right amount of flour on the bench now. Scoring was ok could have been more consistently deep will need more practice but scoring quickly seems best. I like the small blisters from brushing water on the dough.
So is the crumb, the shaping, the coloration. Just the darker tips. People would kill for a a crumb like that. I understand that we are often our own harshest critics, but what more could you be looking for, especially if you think back a mere ten bakes ago. Don't undersell your skillset at this point, these are beautiful.
A suggestion on the pre-shape. You may try pre-shaping gently but with a longer barrel. That way you already have a head start for extensibility. I'm really surprised that you didn't achieve a more extensible dough length with the NY.
Thank you Alan, I know I focus on the negatives or what I perceive as the negatives on my bakes. It is true, I have come a long long way. Because I was expecting these to be pretty loose and extensible, I decided to shape into loose boules. It turns out that even though I did so little to develop the dough, and despite the NY, it was still a bit more elastic than I was expecting. I will repeat this with the same flour and pre-shape as a longer barrel so will have less stretching to do. I will say that I think that my shaping has improved gradually and I am feeling a bit more confident with it now.
They look pretty good to me Benny. How would you describe the taste?
Cheers,
Gavin
They do taste good, but not great like the ones I made with the Canadian T55 flour, they were the best I’ve made so far in flavour. I hope I can get my hands on that flour again sometime in the future.
It seems most baguette bakers that are looking for the classic baguette bite and chew favor weaker flours. It is there that the French flours excel, IMO.
Benny, 12% may be a little high in protein for the french style baguettes. Hamelman would consider that Bread Flour.
If you use that flour again I have 2 thoughts for your consideration.
I did both of the above last night and for KA AP (11.7%) it was too much, I think. Haven’t shaped them yet. NOTE - if the dough is super extensible at shaping, I plan to stretch the left and right sides of the dough and fold back into the middle, then continue as usual. Hopefully this will add some elasticity during elongation. A number of bakers not on TFL are into overnight retarded autolyse. Next time I may leave out the NY and try the cold autolyse only. The dough was mixed at 68% (used Hamelman’s Pain au Levain in the original post as is), and it was completely different (extensibility wise) from previous bakes and very manageable. It seemed 4 or 5% wetter than it actually was.
It is amazing how sensitive gluten characteristics are to slight changes.
There’s something about the torpedo shape that I like so I’ll keep trying to shape as torpedos.
Increasing the NY to 0.5% is a good idea Dan I think I may do that next time. I’m not sure about the extended cold autolyse. I’ve been doing fermentolyse dissolving the IDY, diastatic malt and NY in water then mixing the flour. Salt added 20 mins later. I’m hoping that the loose roll pre-shaping and increased NY will help with extensibility.
Good suggestion that if the dough is too extensible to fold the ends in to shorten and then continue shaping. So long as there isn’t too much flour on the dough that shouldn’t be a problem and should work.
Have you tried something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/Onwon-Powder-Sugar-Shaker-Lid/dp/B07L72F1FZ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Powder+Shaker&qid=1596154798&s=home-garden&sr=1-3
The little shakers put down a light dusting with an even coat. Very little flour is on the counter, but because it is so evenly dispersed it works very well.
I use a small sieve to lightly flour the bench now and when shaping the baguettes, I don’t flour the bench. I’ve been keeping a small amount of flour that I will briefly place the dough onto to lightly flour it instead of flouring the bench. This has been working better than flouring the bench when shaping.
I've had a brain fart! I don't know what NY means.
Nutritional yeast.
Thanks Benny. Other than nutritional value, what effect do you expect to have on bread dough?
The group has found that the addition of small amounts of NY helps with extensibility of the dough. However, at higher percentages some have found they didn’t like the flavour it contributed.
Thanks, I couldn't find the answer. Cheers.
while on the topic of canada - seems all the baguettes ive had in canada are torpedos. go figure. yours look great !
My favourite local bakery Black Bird does a wonderful sesame coated sourdough baguette which they shape as torpedos, I’m sure that they are the reason I’ve been trying to do a torpedo shape. Ironic that the baguettes you’ve seen in Canada Geremy are torpedos considering the fact that we as a country probably have very few actual torpedos.
You have really taken to the challenge and making some great looking baggies. I like the graceful shape and your usual excellent crumb with a bold bake thrown in to boot. They are always a work in progress but the flaws disappear with the first bite and chew. I think water does a more predictable job of adding extensibility with less impact on the flavor than NY.
Thank you Don. You’re right when I went with higher hydration the dough was more extensible, but it was also more difficult to shape. With more practice I might deal better with higher hydration just as I’ve been able to do somewhat better with it for my hearth loaves.
Just read an article published by the San Francisco Baking Institute (SFBI.com). It makes the case for liquid levains when extensibilty (baguettes) are desired.
“When a sourdough process is used to make the final product, the dough automatically develops more strength, due to the higher level of acidity produced by these preferments (because of the activity of the bacteria present in the culture). This increase in strength can be an advantage for the baker who decides to retard some dough (stronger dough will retard better).
As explained previously, liquid sourdough promotes dough with better extensibility. Its use in the production of “long-shaped” breads like baguettes is recommended.”
Since we are adapting Hamelman’s Pain au Levain for baguettes (which was not his intention), it seems a 100% hydrated levain would be best.
For those that would like to read the article in it’s entirety-
Dough Strength: Evaluation and Techniques
So based on that then firmer starter increases LAB activity compared with more liquid starter? Are they implying that having less acid is better for extensibility, this would make sense since acid tightens up the gluten.
Acid’s affect on SD has been somewhat confusing to me.
I think -
So, too much of a good thing can be bad...
Yes it is confusing. I wonder if it is that proteolysis increases with increasing acidity and that is what causes the gluten to breakdown?
Here’s a comment about nutritional yeast in that newsletter.
” To improve dough extensibility without using an autolyse, deactivated yeast can also be used. It will increase dough extensibility, improving dough and bread characteristics. Because deactivated yeast is a natural product (therefore maintaining a “clean” label) it is used more often in laminated dough and formulas of “long-shaped” breads like baguettes. It is important to remember that this type of yeast won’t generate any fermentation activity.”
Went back to basics. Baked the formula in the original post (Hamelman’s Pain au Levain). No deviation except 0.5% Nutritional Yeast. After mixing the dough, even at 68% hydration, it was a dream to handle. Slap and folds were a joy, very unlike earlier attempts without NY. I did an overnight autolyse in the fridge using only water and flour. Before retarding I was concerned that the dough was too extensible. But after removing from the bulk retard to shape, the dough handled quite nicely. There was no CY added, only raised with SD.
I love the loaf on the bottom. Would be thrilled to consistently produce loaves like that. The scoring was varied on each loaf. Still looking for the perfect slash!
Your persistence and practice has really paid off Dan. Your baguettes are really looking so perfect now. Great ears, grigné and beautiful even shaping, really stunning.
That bottom baguette is a dream. All you need to do is get that same consistency of scoring and Eric Keyser will be knocking on your door.
The others are no slouches either!
Appearance wise those are real beauties. Are you on to the next phase? Having previously captured taste and texture with the french flour and IDY. Is appearance the next trophy? I wonder if a taxidermist could preserve the bottom one to be hung above the mantle.
Don, just wanted to go back to my start. They look good but the eating is no where near French Flour.
For those seeking Instagram, don’t use French Flour. Save that for eating :-)
Is so much better now than in days past. Whatever your doing now seems to be working. So what are you doing differently? I set mine to 480 and leave it be. Doc is playing his like the Delorean time machine. Kendalm is withholding his bread until the oven is proper. Stone, steel and steaming, It's funny the different ways we cope with our ovens and how important they are to having the final say on how our bread turns out.
Don, truth be told, I’m not a fan of dark bakes. Sometimes they are pushed for neighbors and/or visual appeal. Dark has never been a problem for me. My baguette bakes start @ 550F. All baguettes bakes run between 16 - 19 minutes.
Since they are baked with huge amounts of steam, browning is also enhanced. My problem is blisters. And I have no idea why they are so difficult for me. I have the ability to throw as much steam as I wish and for as long as needed. There is something else that is hindering blisters in my case.
This is a first for me. A batch of all sourdough baguettes with a decent open crumb, distinct ears, balanced coloration top and bottom, acceptable shaping, and a nice thin crackly crust.
Image
Process capture:
388 levain (28 starter + 186 H2O + 186 BF) ; 406 H2O + 50 w/ 5g NY; 777 AP + 10g DM; 19.4 NaCl
1655g total dough weight
67% hydration, 20% pre-fermented flour
0.5% NY (5g),
1% DM (10g),
2% salt,
dissolve NY in 50g water
Add 388g levain [built with 12% protein bread flour], water, NY, DM, flour (777g Freedom’s Choice AP with 10.5% protein) (average protein 10.7% including protein in levain flour)
50 min fermentolyse w/ 110°F water (500ml; microwave 45 sec)
5 min mix, Dough temp 83°F (might get by with 4 min after the 50 min autolyse)
2:30 hr BF (from combine) w/1 fold after mixing
2 hr retard @ 40°F (to a core temperature of ~45°F)
divide into 4 x 409g aliquots
pre-shape gently
rest 30 min
Shape - not easy to roll out, lumpy and resistant to stretching
proof 1:45 at room temp
retard >45 min (1:30 this time)
transfer to pans, brush with water, sprinkle with kosher salt (1g/baguette)
bake (preheat to 525°F, 2 min @ 390°F for steam, 6 min @ 500°F 100% humidity/low fan speed, 9 min @ 430°F/20% humidity/low fan speed)
The low net protein level made a big difference and I was able to fully develop the gluten before BF requiring no folds.
Shortened the BF to 2:30 (measured from when water hits flour) because of the high dough temp and to allow for some continued fermentation during the first part of retard.
Shaping was still not what I want even with the nutritional yeast it was fighting me. Maybe I need to let it rest longer after pre-shape (suggestions here welcome).
Chilled dough handled well on the way to the oven. Don't fully understand why the bottoms are not as brown as prior batches run with the same oven program.
In a good way.
I had to look up aliquot, thanks to you. I more often find myself hitting the auto-dictionary button when I read Op-Ed pieces, and not baking blogs or comments, but always willing to try and add new vocabulary.
I'm surprised that with so much NY you had difficulty getting extensibility, especially with a gentle pre-shape.
But these look really good, and we'll both have to work a little harder on a consistent barrel where both ends have the same diameter. Otherwise a fine bake and lovely open crumb with a thin walled crust - something that you stated was less likely with a levain formula.
Recently our beloved Danni resurfaced and commented on my bake elsewhere, and this is what I wrote back:
And I think that is true. If the collective wisdom from our collaborative experiences could be harnessed into a tome, it would be close to a definitive book on the art of baguette baking.
As the recently departed and great man John R. Lewis said "Get in good trouble". Which is what is going on around here
10.7% protein, all white flour, and 67% hydration. PLUS 0.5% NY. And still not extensible. Have you used Freedom’s Choice before? Bread baking is scientific, but every bit as much art.
Last bake I tried an overnight cold autolyse, and the results were promising. Up until the dough was chilled it was way too extensible. But when it was removed the fridge for shaping it felt right and was well behaved.
Trevor Wilson will sometimes do an overnight autolyse cold, but he includes the salt when he does that. Did you include the salt in yours? Saltolyse.
A resting period after the flour has been saturated with water probably does not qualify as an autolyse if there is salt in the mix because the salt slows down the amylase enzyme activity that converts broken starch into maltose. On the other hand if you wait long enough you will still get the effect even with the inhibitor acting. In the past a baker we all know has preached that autolyse was about protease enzymes breaking down gluten, and I spent many months trying to track down any science that supported his hypothesis and came up empty. I know that many baking schools still teach it, but it just ain't so. Native protease enzymes in wheat are inactive at pH >4 and wet flour has a pH of about 6 so even though there are some, they are not active until way late in a sourdough maturation process, and even then most dough never reaches a pH of less than 4 before it is baked (a levain will but not dough). In fact I think that is probably what is going on when your old starter gets very thin after you leave it out (covered) on a warm counter for 24 hrs. The pH gets down below 3.8 (often 3.6 or slightly below) where the protease enzymes become quite active and chop up the gluten. You can stimulate it by adding a little citric or malic acid to a flour/water paste. It doesn't take very long for it to turn to goo.
So no, I don't add the salt until after the flour and water have been combined, but I do toss it on top of the combined ingredients so that I don't forget it when I mix. I do include the levain because I find no reason not to and it gets all of the liquid available to hydrate the flour which is what Professor Calvel said was important about autolyse.
thanks for this comment as it reinforces what I have learned over many years. I have to make sure I measure the salt and leave it next to the mixer while waiting for the autolyse. I note that Hamelman instructs to include a liquid levain (100 - 125% hydration) into the autolyse, but he holds off including a stiff levain (60% hydration) until after the autolyse. I suspect it for the reasons you have identified. The liquid levain contains a fair bit of water from the overall formula.
Good to know that the proteases only work when the pH is < 4, I didn’t know that. Thanks Doc. I’ve only added salt to my saltolyse one time, I otherwise do try to follow proper autolyse with only flour and water.
Doc, be careful what you say and how you say it.
For the record I don't agree that there is no observable dough degradation above pH 4. I mean have you ever worked with semola rimacinata?
@Michael - perhaps I missed something in the literature. I would really like to find a test that I could run that would exhibit a degradation that can be attributed too native protease enzymes and run it over a range of naturally occuring pH values to find the boundary. Would greatly appreciate any pointers you can provide.
Rheological testing could be used to highlight degradation over time. And testing for free amino acids is at least one way to measure any proteolytic action.
There is a paper I recall which might be useful and when I track it down I will link it...
Regarding semola rimacinata, on my thread here, I have included a snippet of a paper which shows alveograph data for this flour at 28 minutes and at 2 hours. In that short amount of time its performance has degraded significantly.
The specific piece of information that came to mind.
From: Proteolysis in sourdough fermentations: mechanisms and potential for improved bread quality
Interesting paper Michael. The proteases of the LAB are intracellular in nature. So they wouldn’t have an effect on gluten degradation at all. The LAB rely on the proteases in the grain to break the proteins down to amino acids and polypeptides which can then be transported across the cell membrane of the bacteria. Then the intracellular proteases break the peptides down to amino acids for the bacteria’s metabolic processes. The LAB are said not to have any extracellular proteases and therefore cannot affect gluten directly.
I never realized that it was the grain’s proteases that led to gluten breakdown. It is interesting also that these proteases really aren’t active until a pH of 4 or less is attained..
Another interesting point was the chart about glutathione which the nutritional yeast is rich in. It seems that high glutathione levels lead to gluten depolymerization, increase gluten solubility and increases the gluten’s susceptibility to proteolysis. This would explain why adding nutritional yeast increases extensibility in our doughs.
Also of interest to me as a physician is the fact that the proteolytic enzymes in grain are able to break down the gluten to a level theoretically low enough to reduce their effects on patients with Celiac disease. Of course they wouldn’t have any effect in commercially yeasts breads since they do not reach a pH level < 4 so commercial breads would be worse for Celiac patients. However, we do know that even sourdough bread isn’t safe for patients with true Celiac disease and not just gluten intolerance. If all the gluten was broken down then the bread might be safe, but then the bread wouldn’t be bread without the gluten.
Thanks Benny, I have read this paper a number of times previously and so I have a good grasp of the details. I might point out that as a student of oenology I have studied yeast and LAB processes at length and so I understand the distinction between intracellular and extracellular.
However, perhaps more pertinent is the table I copied in which details several native cereal enzymes including those from germinated wheat. The pH ranges for most operate above 4 and are said to display activity against gluten proteins.
Also it should be noted that the gluten matrix is considerably complex and there may be small but influential effects from other native proteases that help to create extensibility without completely degrading the gluten. This is the point I have been attempting to make. On a related note one can invoke proteolysis (specifically glutenin depolymerisation) with shear forces alone, as this is what happens when dough is mechanically overmixed.
If a starter culture never dips below 4 then LAB wouldn't be able to utilise gluten proteins which would beg the question from where would LAB attain a source of Nitrogen?
The more one looks, the more complex the answers become!
Michael, I didn’t mean to suggest the points I brought up as things you didn’t know but instead things I didn’t know and found interesting, sorry if I implied otherwise.
It is all very fascinating to me and as you said, very complex much more so than I had previously thought. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and the research that is the basis of it.
Benny
No salt, just flour and water.
Wow, they look great Doc. Thin crisp crust with sourdough only, isn’t that nirvana?
@Benny - I suspect that the key bit that made for a crisp crust was the low protein flour. This is the first time I have gone below 11% and fully developed the gluten. In the past I have been stopping the mix early to prevent full development of the gluten in 12+% flour and this time I went the other route and used a low protein flour and mixed it all the way until there were very few gluten balls on the surface of the dough. It was very extensible when I put into retard and not so extensible when it came out.
I am going to try a batch where divide and shape the room temperature dough and then proof it, and retard at the end to get it stiff enough to handle when it goes into the oven.
The flavor was great (in four parts by my analysis): the crumb tastes of the wheat, and the crust contributes flavor from each shade of brown (toast/char bitter from the darkest brown, Maillard products from the lightest shade of brown and caramelization products from the intermediate brown). The crackling crispness is the sound of really fresh bread and the aroma of the acids and fermentation products that comes with the soft crumb is just intoxicating.
I took three loaves to our Friday evening happy hour block party (socially distanced on the sidewalk and only ten at a time), and gave one to a plastic surgeon/neighbor who missed out yesterday because she had a surgery that went long and didn't respond before I had given it to somebody else.
I am still on the lookout for lower protein flour and hope to find something appropriate soonish. First I will try again with the current 12% with more NY.
Try one of the commercial AP flours that is not labled with a protein level. Gold Medal, Pillsbury, or a super market house brand should be candidates. You may be able to find out what the protein level is but the manufacturer does not make a big deal of it. For the typical customer it is "flour".
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17045/protein-content-flour#comment-261314
Being in Canada we have different flour than you guys have in the US. I saw an AP flour the other day organic that was around 10-10.5%. That seemed like it might be ideal.
I just got back from doing a grocery run and grocery stores are finally getting their shelves restocked with flour. I had a look at all the all purpose flours on the shelves. All the Canadian all purpose in stock were 13.3% protein. To get a Canadian flour around 10% you have to buy cake and pastry flour but what they had was bromated.
I did find one bag of all purpose that is unbromated and 10% protein, it is actually a Canadian brand but I noted that the flour was American. They described it as really finely ground and sifted. This might be a decent flour for baguettes.
Benny, check your local asian markets you may find some good quality Korean flour. Beksul is a big brand. they are intended for making noodles and have around 10% protein. I've made some good bread with it. there was one that was particularly light. let me see if i can find the packaging for that.
This one. package says 3g protein out of 30g service size. i think it's a finer grind.
Despite my being Asian, I never thought to check out the Korean grocery around the block from my house for flour. Great idea James, thanks.
I had a look at the Korean shop near me and unfortunately they did not have any soft wheat flour. There are others in the city that I will have to check out. I’m hoping that the new flour I am working with today for the first time will give a good result with only 10% protein.
Congratulations on the thin and crackly crust with SD. I was somewhat astonished to see 110 degree water used. I was under the impression that water temperature at those levels would harm if not kill SD culture. Is speeding up the process part of the plan to create the texture you are after. The lower protein flour is the key to thin and light as you stated. The crumb is really nice considering the lower hydration. Do you find the crust baked to golden brown instead of a mahogany russet color to be a factor in the crackly crust?
Duplicate
I have never had a problem with using warm water to get the dough temperature up to 90°F, and 110°F won't kill off either the yeast or the LAB. It might slow them down for the few seconds it takes for everything to come to equilibrium but it won't kill them. Of course every yeast and every LAB has its favorite growth temperature, but usually the LAB prefers it warm and will continue to replicate at temperatures above what the yeast will tolerate. That is actually one way to adjust the relative activity during BF and proof. I seem to remember that the Laraburu process called for a 105°F proof which (so far as I know) nobody every got to work for them.
I think that the lower protein flour probably is a significant contributor to the thin crust. And I am not so sure that the physical thickness is so thin since that is controlled by the depth to which the temperature gets up to where Maillard reactions can do their magic, but it is very crackly and behaves more like the baguettes I remember in Europe (easy to bite).
As for color, I like to have three colors of brown on a loaf because I associate each color with a different flavor. Very dark brown is on the edge of bitter and tastes of well toasted bread. Intermediate brown is where the caramelization of sugars may be the driver of flavor. And the lightest brown colored crust seems to be dominated by Maillard products and has a more complex flavor profile. Somebody should write an article on how to taste bread. I like to try to take it apart as the various components of flavor are solublized and come to both the tongue and the nose (from behind). It takes 45 sec to a full minute to find all of the pieces (if they are there).
We all seem to be heading off on different tangents or retreating to our corners when it comes to baguettes. Our quest has led us to different personal goasl of what defines the ideal. I guess having a choice is why they make so many different flavors of ice cream. Baguettes are a labor of love to make that comes with some heartbreak and ecstasy. I make them because they look so cool and I enjoy eating them. The three main reasons for me are breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Keep up the good work and enjoy the rewards.
This was a repeat of yesterday except that I did not fully chill the dough before divide and shape. Because I had something come up when I would otherwise have been doing divide/shape I stuck it in the retarder but at 65°F and not at 38°F, so I figure that it was equivalent to a 3:30 BF with a dough temperature of 67°F (vs 40°F) when it was time to divide. The desired result was achieved in that the warmer dough was more extensible and easier to pre-shape and shape. And instead of trying to fight it for final shaping I did it in two steps with a 10 min rest in between. Another small thing was to roll the dough in only one direction when stretching it (away from me) rather than comressing it in both directions. These small changes appear to have made a significant difference in the uniformity of the barrel diameter. When I got done shaping I was somewhat concerned that all of what appeared to be surface bubbles would make for malformed loaves. But as they proofed (for 1:00 on the counter and then retarded at 50°F for three hours while I was off doing something else) the irregularities disappeared. They were easy to load, easy to slash and baked up with the same crust coloration as yesterday (a slightly lighter bottom crust than I had seen prior to yesterday, and excellent coloration on top) and with nice ears and I think somewhat better crumb than yesterday. So all round a pleasing day.
The fermentolyse today was 20 minutes (vs 50 min) and I saw no difference in outcome which adds weight to the claim that 20 min is enough time to get the benefit of autolyse (no salt). The diastatic malt was also added along with the salt just to see if there was any noticeable difference and I observed none.
Tomorrow I am going to take the last step in dropping the protein content by using 100% 10.5% protein AP flour in both the levain and in the final dough.
After tomorrow I have a number of single parameter changes that I want to search through to see what the partial derivatives are in those dimensions: oven fan speed, loaf weight, slash variations, water temperature, BF duration, PFF, and mix duration/speed. And by that time my new Famag mixer should be here and the conversion from Assistent to Famag needs to be done with a stable baseline.
And here are "tomorrow" baguettes in a place where it is easier to compare with "yesterday" baguettes.
The difference is that the levain was made with the same AP flour that was used for the dough (as opposed to using a 12% protein bread flour).
The thing that I had not thought about until after these were shaped was that the bread flour that made up 20% of yesterday's batch contained ascorbic acid and the AP flour contains none. So how much of an impact can that have? At the moment I am not sure, but this batch (using 0.5% nutritional yeast and flour containing no ascorbic acid) was almost plastic and were gently pre-shaped, rested for 30 min then shaped in one stage. So my hypothesis is that there was insufficient oxidizer in the dough to cancel out the effects of the glutathione that was introduced with the nutritional yeast and thus the dough remained compliant all the way to the oven. I think the crumb is slightly more open, but not significantly so. The flavor is good, crumb texture is good. Color is good, and without the need for a 3 hr retard they were out of the oven quite a bit sooner than yesterday. I did retard them for a couple of extra hours @ 50°F while I did a Zoom chat but that was just to hold them until I could bake them rather than an essential process step. So they could have been done in six hours from flour hits water including 45 min retard prior to oven entry (plus 10 hrs to build the levain).
How do you roll them in only one direction? Do you roll them out and then pick up the dough and re-position?
They look good in all aspects...
I hope, once you get these tweaked to your satisfaction, that you splurge for French Flour. The flavor and texture is not possible (according to many bakers who have tried) with American flours. You and your wife deserve the best...
The stretch is done by moving your hands outward as you roll, at about a 15° angle I guess. But adapted to the willingness of the dough to be deformed. I use my thumbs to roll the part between my hands. I found that I needed just the right friction on the bench to get what I wanted. The rolling action allows the dough to stretch itself without you putting too much pressure on it. Adjust the direction and pressure as required. The part that is new for me is trying to do it only when I push since my thumbs are more effective in that direction. I may make a video clip if I can get organized.
And I have done the French flour thing but it was a few years ago, and I was not making baguettes. Your description of the problems you experienced mirror my experience quite accurately. As Michael points out, it may be a P/L difference.
Really beautiful baguettes Doc, I’m really impressed with the how incredibly consistent the three of them are, really impressive.
I mean Doc Consistent. They look nice and have a very precise look to them as you crank them out. Nothing beats practice and the process of elimination. Why are you passing on the mixer that I wanted and getting the one I could only dream about. I will be looking forward to your impression of the spiral and giving my Bosch the stink eye although we have learned to get along.
I got my Assistent N28 in Feb of 2011 as an upgrade from a 1974 Kitchenaid K4a (then made by Hobart, with a mechanical governor/speed control) which I have overhauled once and still have (and use). I had acquired a KA Pro 600 which I hate for a number of reasons explained elsewhere, but which I still have and use only once a year to make Liege waffles (while wearing my shooting muffs to attenuate the sound level). But while I like the N28 and can make batches of 1800g using the roller and scraper without too much trouble, I have not had good luck using the dough hook for larger batch sizes. When the Famag became available I looked at it and decided that it was too big for my available space but would be something to continue to think about. Then Danny ordered one and I decided to wait to see what his experience was. My objective is to be able to make enough dough to fill up my combi oven. With two 400g (large baguettes/small batards) per rack x 6 racks I need something that can mix 5Kg of dough. The Famag will do that. The IM-8 would be a better match but it really is too heavy to handle; the IM-5 at 66 lb is big enough (and small enough that I don't have to get the engine hoist into the pantry every time I need to move it), and I found a place where it will fit next to the oven near light and water and power and it does not need to be moved. So it went from unsuitable to promising, to wish list, to planned purchase, and now should ship in the next week or so.
I put a photo of today's batch of baguettes into the post above just so it would be close to the one from yesterday, and now that you point it out, there is really not much difference between them, so it really is about process consistency to get product consistency. Not perfect yet but that is why we keep at it, for the pure joy of making gress (hopefully pro-, but always mixed in with some di-, and some re-).
My Ank barely handles 5K. BuT even though I haven’t mixed large doughs in the Famag, I think will handle the dough much better. This is expected due to the dough moving around the ANK in a “ring” versus the rotating spiral hook and rotating bowl which will knead the dough into a tight and uniform “pumpkin shape”. You will find the Kneading process to be very thorough and gentle on the dough. The gluten development will amaze you!
These mixers are not for everyone. As stated they are super heavy. Over 4 times the weight of an ANK. The foot print, not to mention the height is not compact by any means. I broke down and pulled the trigger once it was decided that the mixer would live on a compact SS cart.
Doc, if you are often moving this manually from one place to another, you are definitely in better shape than me.
A few years ago now, i posted whatever baguette I was making at the time and stated that consistency from bake to bake was one of the most important aspects of the entire baking realm for me. To be able to do that from one bake to the next is one benchmark of quality and care.
So it's nice to see a couple of other old duffers on board here. Add to that Benny and Dan, who are both showing serious consistency from bake to bake, and we have enough to start a basketball squad with plenty of other bench help here on this thread.
Don, the Ankarsrum is a fine mixer, that should last a lifetime. There is nothing “light duty” on the machine. It’s light enough to move around at will and can sit on a home counter without hogging too much space. Mine is stored in the bottom of a cabinet in another room. Moving it to the kitchen counter is a breeze.
The Famag is so rugged it uses a chain drive instead of a belt. Think Harley Davidson...
I am working too much for an old man who would rather not be, so I have to cram all my bread baking into a weekend. In some ways it's nice having three separate doughs to focus on nearly uninterrupted rather than having all that down time waiting on a single dough. Sometimes it all goes smoothly and the breads hit the oven on schedule and then there are days like today where they came out okay but missed the mark for a variety of reasons.
Pain Au Levain, Approachable cinnamon raisin, French flour Bouabsa
I finally had one of those baguette doughs that was too elastic to shape and work with that you guys are using NY to combat. In my case the bulk ferment went too far. I should have folded it again in the fridge last night. The dough was quite strong for weak french flour and not pleasant to roll out. They weren't a disaster but not what I was hoping for except of course the flavor and texture and the crust that is in a league of it's own. I tried to use shorter slashes and do an extra cut to keep the crust shackles from bursting and tidy up things a bit. It almost worked and might work better next time with a better shape and proof.
Mashed a couple of ends and wrestled too much with them and was surprised to see any crumb intact.
A work in progress I wish I wasn't
I fished some of my pedestrian 2 year old T65 French flour from the pantry for this run. Relied on input from Dan and MT's experiences, albeit with a much higher grade of flour on their part.
Notes:
Overall, I was pleased with this bake, especially understanding that this was probably the most basic T65 flour anywhere in France. Just remembered that the flour does not have any malted barley and didn't think of adding any diastatic malt powder.
Concerns:
Alan, my guess would be that the flour is stronger than what we’ve been using. I say that because the lack of extensibility and also the strong “bridges”between the scores and the well defined ears (typical alfanso). It would be great to find that your are able to produce your typical baguettes using high quality french flour. It would surely give me something to shoot for. The baked loaves look great to me.
How would you describe the bite, crumb texture, and flavor?
The flavor is nothing particularly noteworthy. Tasty, nothing wrong with it, but doesn't carry the "sparkle" that the typical Bouabsa bread does, and certainly not in the same universe as what you L'Epiciere folks report. The crust is as anticipated. Quite thin and very crunchy, both positives, and the crumb is soft and not chewy at all.
It was a delightful dough to handle at every stage, and by the time that they came off the couche and onto the oven peel, they had already pulled back in length, probably exacerbated a little more by the bake. I wonder if this dough could benefit from even half the 0.25% N.Y.
I have enough of this flour left for a few more bakes, but not necessarily next up. Have something else in mind.
thanks, alan
I went from trying to under-mix a strong flour to fully mixing a weaker flour and I like the results better. Just my opinion, but it seems that the fully proofed baguette made with (just barely) fully developed but weak flour is less resistant to the pressure of expanding CO2 and I get a better ear, a larger diameter and a more open crumb as well as a more crisp crust and a less chewy crumb. But I don't have any quantitative data on that.
Tomorrow is a batch with a shorter BF and a little longer final proof and I am trying to hold everything else constant.
That makes sense Doc. I have been doing very little to develop gluten in the past several bakes, not doing French folds and instead doing Rubaud kneading to ensure that the salt is well incorporated and the crumb has been good. Now these have been with relatively high protein flours. I have the levain fermenting now for my first time using this 10% protein flour and it will be interesting to see how this one bakes up. This potentially maybe the first time baking baguettes with low protein flour.
Where all our baguettes look like how we make them no matter the recipe. I could match the photo of the baguette to the baker without a doubt. There is an individual expression to batons unlike any other bread. Boules and batards they all kind of look the same but baguettes are a form of hand writing not easy to change or forge.
The only advise I could offer to open up the crumb would be a little more proof, a little more water and about 195 fewer FF's My french flour like my american flour develops quickly after a short mix and a couple of folds before retarding. In hot weather like now a fold in the fridge has become necessary to keep the dough from blowing up. The long time in the fridge will develop gluten on it's own without a lot of kneading that can make the dough too tight and elastic and cause it to retract.
You really should try the Kendalm flour. The shipping cost from RI would be minimal compared to moving to France like I am contemplating.
For those desiring very open crumb in a baguette, there is much to be learned from Don’s post above. If you take the time to search out his bakes it becomes obvious that not only are his baguettes uniquely his, but the crumb is consistently open, and the cell structure is evenly dispersed. Many of us are attaining open crumb, but few are consistently producing even distribution.
The 2 most important takeaways
And really a third, Don has consistently mentioned this throughout the CB. “Increase the hydration”.
My thoughts and response to each.
The above are my current thoughts. But like all other current thoughts, these are subject to change whenever more convincing ideas come to light. Please share your thoughts so that together we can improve our baguettes skills...
Danny
My personal challenge is to attain a consistently open and uniform crumb as Don’s, BUT at the same time produce gorgeous and pronounced ears similar to Alan. This will be no small feat. And, I’m not sure both can be produced simultaneously. That explanation would require a separate post.
“2. Fermentation, a catch 22. If we BF too thoroughly, it gasses up the dough, making the difficult job of shaping much more difficult. Since the shaping process of baguettes are more hands on than other shapes, preserving the cell structure and fermentation gas are challenging. With that in mind, is it better to limit the BF? Then handle the dough during division, pre-shape and shaping with the idea that the Final Proof is where the cell structure and gas are produced with the possibility of leaving most of it intact?”
So, how do we score these warm and fully proofed dough? I envision warm, slack, relaxed narrow and long baguettes daring me to touch them in any way. Knowing that as soon as the blade is pulled across the skin it is going to wrinkle, stick, and resist in every way possible.
I say cheat! Put the shaped and couched dough Back into the fridge or freezer until it firms up. I’ve done it. It works...
I think ears and an open crumb are not mutually exclusive. You can have both and that is my goal as well. As far as hydration goes all other things being equal otherwise the higher hydration will have a more open crumb. It's a balance point just like the fermentation is. The french term of la pointage for the bulk is a perfect description of the point in the curve when the dough is right for the bread you are making. With yeasted dough that is a sharper point than with SD.
I don't consider my crumb to be that much more open than some of the other CB bakers except for what the slightly higher hydration I use provides. The real masters like Kristen from Fullproof ( it would be interesting to see her tackle baguettes someday) or the Tartine bakers use an even higher percentage of water. An open crumb has to be the goal going in to succeed at it. It rarely just happens. Unless your name is Benito ;-)
Scoring a chilled dough is not cheating in any way. I just don't have the room for it in our fridge. I worry that the crust could be affected by the chilling or drying so I just gash and hope. I do shoot for a less than full proof with baguettes. When I see faint gray bubbles inside the dough that is when they hit the oven.
I have been under developing the dough, only using some Rubaud kneading to ensure that the salt is fully incorporated then doing just the two coil folds.
Regarding bulk fermentation I have been bulk fermenting to 30% rise in the aliquot jar and given that there are only two coil folds, this should correlate quite well with the rise in the main dough. I do have a dough in cold retard now that I will bake later today that I allowed to bulk further to 35-40% rise to see if that has any effect.
In regards to hydration, when I have tried hydrations over 70% for baguettes I seemed to have more issues with shaping because of stickiness. Then overflouring the bench/dough to resolve the stickiness and having the dough slide on the bench. As a result for now I will stick to hydrations closer to 68% until I have more experience shaping with more confidence.
I’m still hoping that with good fermentation, good shaping building tension and then good scoring I too can attain good ears and open crumb together.
Too much to digest on the screen, so I just printed out this piece of the thread to review, cross reference and highlight.
And this, damas y caballeros, is what TFL renders. Where else, okay maybe somewhere else, on the internet can we find a detailed discussion and problem solving session dedicated uniquely to baguettes?, although the implications are further-reaching*.
We seem to have whittled ourselves down the the last remaining bastion on this long-playing focus, although I'm certain that others are still peeking in from time to time. The "hard-core" tenacious few. There likely isn't a book in print that delves so deeply into this one aspect of baking, and books certainly don't afford an interactive discussion on the merits and downfalls of run after run. And I doubt that an in-person training session or class would bother to be so baguette oriented run after run after run. Bravo to us!
Thanks all - you know who you are. alan
*farther vs. further. Had to get the distinction clear and this is what I found. But will I remember it?...
"People use both further and farther to mean “more distant.” However, American English speakers favor farther for physical distances and further for figurative distances."
AP flour 10% protein (PC brand)
No NY used, 1% diastatic malt, IDY and levain all dissolved in water. Then mixed the flour. 67% hydration approximately. Rubaud and bowl kneading done x 5 mins. Two sets of coil folds done at 50 mins intervals good windowpane after second set.
Aliquot jar rise to 35-40% then into fridge for cold retard overnight.
This flour without the NY is quite extensible. Next time pre-shape as a loose boule instead of loose roll.
After shaping left 20 mins room temperature rest in the couche.
My final shaping is much more successful when I pre-shape as a boule. With this low protein flour I think I can get away with it and still get the baguettes long enough without needing to pre-shape as a roll.
Looking forward to your gorgeous open crumb!
OK here’s the crumb. Fortunately despite the meh shaping the crumb is good. This flour is pretty good all around. Nice clean wheat flavour with a thin crisp brittle crust, I’m pretty happy with this. I’ll keep my eyes out for good and proper T55 or T65 but I’ve been looking and not finding.
One thing I’d love to see one of you guys do, is see you do your pre-shape in a roll. The way I’m doing it is causing problems with shaping such that the only times I happy with the shaping is when I pre-shape as a boule. For this flour being quite extensible I think will work out fine, but less extensible flours my pre-shaping leads to fat ends and thin mid sections. I did bulk fermentation this time in my square shallow Pyrex dish which I use for my usual sourdough because it is ideal for coil folding. The idea being that I would divide them quite evenly in three rectangles which then could be rolled. So how would you go about turning these into a loose roll as the pre-shape. I’ve been folding the ends into the middle and then rolling, I don’t think this is working because when I go to shape and stretch it out a bit the overlapping ends open apart leaving my with less dough in the midsection leading to the fat ends in then final baguettes.
Even though the images don’t have enough resolution to examine the cell structure after zooming in, it looks like your crumb is once again outstanding. You and Doc have made great strides In that area. Don has produced very nice crumb for quite some time. But to be honest, your crumb is my goal. And IMO, your ears are the nicest in combination for the excellent crumb. You are producing something that I want to emulate.
Please go into extreme detail as to how you think this crumb is produced. I’m going to have to break out the aliquot jar again...
I think a few factors go into getting the crumb based on what everyone has contributed in this massive CB. The basics I believe are lower protein flour and less dough development and then in final shaping iron fist in a velvet glove. With Abel’s formula and Alan’s instructions, I dissolve the levain, IDY and diastatic malt in the water then add the flour. I mix the flour until it just comes together, I don’t do any kneading of any kind. After a 20 mins rest, sprinkle salt on and add some water to dimple and squeeze the dough until the salt is added, then Rubaud kneading gently for about 3-4 mins and until I cannot feel any salt. I remove a small portion of the dough at this point for the aliquot jar which then sits next to the Pyrex dish the dough is then placed in to rest 50 mins. Then two sets of coil folds 50 mins apart. That’s it for dough handling. Then I wait until the aliquot jar this time reached 35-40% rise, up to now I left it until 30% rise but I wanted to see what the dough handling would be like going further and also see if the crumb would be more open. Then cold retard.
Because of work schedule, the dough was left in the fridge set to 2ºC for about 24 hours. I set the oven to 500ºF and then take the dough out of the fridge and divide. This is where I run into problems with pre-shaping. I think I’ve done best for final shaping when pre-shaping a boule but this time with the dough in a square Pyrex I decided I’d try to do a loose roll. Flipping the dough out onto a floured counter I divided into three equal rectangles weighed and portioned to be about 280 g each. I then do a letter fold with the ends to the middle and then rolled loosely. Left to sit on the counter in my warming kitchen for 20 mins. Each pre-shaped dough is flipped stretched trying to achieve a rectangle and then shaped fairly firmly attempting to get a bit of tension on the shaping. For two of the doughs unfortunately the ends were much fatter than the centers in shaping so I had a bit of the dumbbell shape happening. The third one seeing this was happening I letter folded each end in to try to get it more even before shaping. This extra manipulation ultimately degassed that one baguette a bit too much and one of the finished baguettes was flattish on one end.
Each was placed in the lightly floured couche and left to bench rest for an additional 20 minutes at which time I was going to place them in the fridge until the oven was up to temperature but the oven was ready within 10 mins of the bench rest starting. They were flipped out onto the transfer board and placed onto parchment. Flour was brushed off and they were scored. At this point I had intended to brush water on to get a bit of a shine but I forgot. They were loaded onto the usual baking steel setup with the steaming gear on the upper rack. Baked for 13 mins at 500ºF then steaming removed, temperature dropped to 480ºF and convection turned on to ensure steam released fully. After 5 mins turned and switched places on the steel, doing this again after another 5 mins. Temperature dropped to 350ºF and finished baking after another 3 mins.
I’m not sure what it is that I am doing that is different, but that is what I did with this bake. The crumb is a bit better than the last couple and perhaps pushing the bulk a bit was helpful for that along with the longer bench time after pre-shape and shape.
Wow! What crumb. I'm thinking of jailbreaking, coming to Toronto, and holding you hostage (I travel with my own masks!) until I can learn the secrets of your crumb. And regardless of what you say, the overall look of the baguettes is fabulous and the crumb is consistently the equal or superior to just about anyone else's - anywhere.
You've achieved in making a pan de cristal with a way lower hydration.
Boy, talk about fast trackers.
Alan, I’ve witnessed this very same metamorphosis with Benny’s batards. One day he is struggling with the rest of us and then, what seems like all of a sudden he is producing superb results.
He seems like an “overnight wonder”. It just took him a year or so of persistence to get there... :-)
Benny, talk about the degree of Final Proof. you are clear about the 30 and 35-40% increase as observed in the aliquot jar.
You have produced uniform and open crumb with various flours, so it seems that either your shaping and/or your Final Proof is the key. Please elaborate.
One other thing. And quit possibly the most important. You have consistently mentioned that you are very conscientious of not over developing the gluten. As a matter of fact is appears closer to no-knead than anything else. It is possible that the lack of gluten development is allowing cell expansion during the bake.
Give us the scoop, Doc!
”inquiring minds want to know”...
So final proof after the cold retard, which I suspect the length of which doesn’t do anything specific, at least I don’t think so. I’m thinking, without any scientific evidence, that the warmth of my kitchen during the bench time of dividing, pre-shape and then shaping and resting in the couche could be allowing the yeast sometime to get active again and create more gases to raise the bread and create the openness.
I wonder about the gluten development and was thinking that developing the gluten less might allow more open crumb for baguettes. However, I did do windowpane tests after each of the two coil folds and the first almost pulled a decent windowpane and then the second one I was able to get a good windowpane. So despite doing so little to the dough, it still had good gluten development.
I’ve mentioned before that whenever I feed my starter only white flour that it rises much more slowly than when I feed it anything else. So with this bake I added a tiny amount of rye to get the levain to rise better. Even with that and the tiny 0.07% IDY the dough takes its time to get to 35-40% in the aliquot jar. I didn’t time it, but I know that my other sourdough breads with more whole grain in it take less time to get to 40% rise in the aliquot jar than these baguette doughs. So I don’t know if that contributes anything, but the bulk fermentation is a bit on the slow side, compared to what I think most others would see using this formula.
Not sure what else to tell you, I’m really happy with how far I’ve come along, but sometimes I think I’m an imposter/pretender and that you guys will figure out soon that I really don’t know what I’m doing.
Is that the rye from your starter I see in the crumb? Or is my screen that dirty? The crumb looks more like SD than a yeasted bread. The long retard must help to aerate the crumb is my guess. You are definitely creeping into ciabatta territory. Nice work they look like the definition of open crumb.
Don you have a good eye, my starter is 100% whole red fife and I did spike 5 g of whole rye into the levain build for this bake so although your screen may be dirty you did spy some rye in the crumb.
@ Benny - your crumb is beyond compare. I am working to emulate your results.
Here is today's run. Better shaping and a little more open crumb (chasing Benny). The upper two were baked on the baseline oven program while the bottom two were run on high convection fan speed for the first 8 minutes and they were in the oven for only 10 min of the baseline 17 min profile (which means they did not get the last 7 minutes @ 430°F/low fan speed). They were getting too brown so I pulled them to cut my losses.
The dough was still quite soft and somewhat difficult to handle, there was no preshaping to speak of, just fold them over and let them sit for 20 min so that they were fully stuck together at the fold, then tighten them up and roll them out. Two of the four needed a short rest and a second stage of lenthening to reach 20", but a one minute rest was enough and once they got to 20" they did not rebound.
Note that the slash did not open well on the two that were baked at high fan speed. I think that the surface may have been so well cooked by the time the heat got in deep and the oven spring started to expand strongly that it could not break open at the slash. So this might be a case of too much early heat and might suggest that a lower start temperature or fan off in a convection oven might produce a better result (let oven spring get started before increasing the heat transfer to the crust).