This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
There are a lot of talented bakers on TFL, many with their own specialties. And so it is with our cadre of baguette bakers here. Fewer in number than other baking crafts, but a group of standout bakers nonetheless. And we are always looking to recruit more to our battalion.
Dan asked me if I'd like participate and be a focus, and sure, why not. If we can interest some of you folks, newcomers as well as coax some long in the tooth TFL participants to attempt baguettes and nurture another skill for your personal baking handbook.
A reminder that this isn't a competition, but a way to learn and help others learn. Hopefully it will be a fulfilling experience and perhaps get a number of you to try your hand and see how you can also bake another fine product and shape.
Mr. Hamelman didn't create this formula/recipe specifically for baguettes, and does not mention that term anywhere within his write-up, actually referring to the shaping as round or oblong. However, I'm here to testify that pretty much any formula for levain and IDY breads can be turned into baguettes, sometimes with a little tweak here or there. My blog pages are chock-full of baguette bakes that were seemingly never intended to be baked in that shape.
A final note here, and an important one. The spreadsheet and method presented above is just a framework for you to either follow faithfully or to build upon.
So, c'mon and join the Community Bake!
Thank you Alan and Dan for all your efforts. I am a newcomer trying to educate myself from you experts. I realize there are several spreadsheet downloads that have been shared. I was wondering if the spreadsheet posted in Dan's original post is available somewhere for shared download? I am happy to provide my email if that works? Just getting started and would greatly appreciate it.
First - there are no "experts". Almost to a person, we are home bakers who share a similar passion with varying degrees of skills developed over time. Occasionally we get the input or encouraging word from a true expert. And as you can see, the entire purpose of the Community Bake, as CB founder Dan states, is to bring together folks in a "cyber-kitchen" where we can all learn from each other while concentrating on a singular focus.
As an aside, a person doing her doctoral thesis concentrated on this very CB for the basis of her work, having observed the interaction over the course of approximately 3 months. She began her paper writing -
And, as you can imagine, we are quite proud of that, and have TFL founder Floyd to thank for creating this vibrant community.
As far as the spreadsheet, the format does not belong to any one of us. It is the creation of the Bread Bakers Guild of America (BBGA as you may see on TFL from time to time). Although a subscription membership organization, anyone can access the publication which explains in detail the formatting of the spereadsheet. It is a clear, detailed and explanatory reference. https://www.bbga.org/files/2009FormulaFormattingSINGLES.pdf .
If you wish, you can create your own working template from the BBGA bulletin which will help you better understand the relationships between the spreadsheet components, or send me a DM in "Messages" and I'll email you a working .XLS or .Numbers as in the original posting. You'll find maintaining a copy of the bulletin a valuable reference going forward.
Wow almost perfect timing, I will definitely join. I was going to have a third go at the Bouabsa baguettes and see what improvements I could make in my technique with that recipe but since a sourdough version is what this CB is about, I guess I’ll change my schedule and do this.
Thank you to Danny and Alan for organizing another fun CB. I hope to learn a lot from this bake.
Benny
Thanks Danny, Thanks Alan. I'm up for some baguettes.
Alan, I don't normally slap my dough around so I went looking online and found this guy working up a sweat! Do you find your dough to be as wet/slack as in the video before you start your slapping? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0
Also I'm not sure if I'm going get my hands on some rye. But if I do are you using dark or light?
Bulk - what rise are you looking for? Kitchen temps are all different (and I use a proofer) so what percent rise are you looking for at the end of that stage?
Retard in couche - room temp or in the fridge? And I assume as it's in the couche you're not placing it in a plastic bag or covering it to maintain moisture?
Finally :) while I've read your steaming technique in the past it's been a while. I don't have lava rocks as I normally just use a combo cooker or DO. How aggressive are you on the humidity? What are you recommending.
Ok one more while we're at it. I have a thick baking stone I can use. For some reason I think you use some granite or the like. Any thoughts or advice on using the stone?
That's all from me. I'm sure you'll get a few more questions. Thanks for doing this. Best, frank!
Edit: I just watched the vidoes - great choices and they answered my oven steam and stone questions. Thanks!
Slack dough? First starting out and trying to figure out how to do it I found videos by him, Babette and Mr. Bertinet for understanding French Folds.
I'm not going to dispute what any professional baker teaches, it's not my place. Simon states that he does French Folds for 10 minutes. My experience is that with practice I can do my 300 French Folds in 6 minutes, which seem like enough for my needs, and about the same time as a mixer, or less. Here are two short videos, 1 & 2, of me performing French Folds on the Bouabsa dough, which is a 75% hydration all AP flour dough. It's going to be goopy, at least as goopy as what Simon is working on.
The Hamelman P au L w/WW is a 68% hydration dough with 25% whole grains, and will be a much "drier" dough to work with, but plenty supple. I use Hodgson Mills dark stone ground rye, but I don't really imagine that it matters all that much if you swap out that 5% for an additional 5% of Whole Wheat or use finer grind white rye, etc.
Kitchen temps. My kitchen is a reliable 78-80dF all year with a constant humidity of ~70%. Which seems high, but it infrequently feel damp or humid inside. I understand that most kitchens have fluctuating temps, both higher (dabrownman) and lower (Mr. Forkish) during the year than mine. And to be fair, this is the only baking environment I know.
Bulk Ferment, rise and timing. What I say next is in almost universal opposition to the vast majority of TFL aficionados. I have not true idea of how much to expect my BF to rise. None. I'll take a SWAG at 30% only because you are asking, but between paying no attention to that and considering the punch downs (I hate that term) via Letter Folds, it really is hard to tell.
What I do pay attention to is the (gasp) clock. When my timer goes off at 50 and 100 minutes, it is time for Letter Folds #s 1 & 2 with a final 20 minute rest before divide - for this dough. Because my kitchen environment is stable, I don't find any value to eyeballing the dough's rise. From handling the dough during the Letter Folds, the tactile feel of the dough is informing me of how it is progressing anyway. **
Couche and retard. I do use a couche, as can be seen in the videos in the main post. The couche sits inside of a jelly roll pan, the remaining linen draping over the shaped dough, and then that is placed into a plastic bag to maintain moisture and keep refrigerator odors out. Generally I retard the dough from ~12-6 hours with few exceptions.
My long term M.O. was to retard the dough in bulk, wait a few hours and then pull it for divide pre-shape and shape, and then return it to finish out the total retard time. However I've recently changed to divide immediately at the termination of BF and really liking it now.
Steaming. I'm pretty aggressive about steaming, employing both a pan with a Sylvia Steaming Towel and also the lava rocks. Something dabrownman refers to as "mega steam". I'll steam for 12-13 minutes before venting the steam and rotating the dough on the baking deck. Wise contributors like Doc Dough are proponents of steaming for only the initial 5-6 minutes, but I find that I'm comfortable delaying the gelatinization of the crust longer.
Baking Deck. I do use a 3/4 inch thick piece of granite cut to size. But prior to that I used those thin baked clay Saltillo tiles and they worked just fine. It's only because they started to crack nonstop that I decided to replace them. I really like my baking deck. It takes longer to heat up, but it is a beast at retaining temperature over time.
I think that I've covered all of your questions. Please join in.
alan
**Of course this would never be any of us in a home baking environment, but consider a bakery that runs on tight schedule. One mix comes out of the mixer, and the next must go in. One set of dough has to be shaped after another so the workbench has to be cleared from the prior dough's shaping. the same holds for oven usage. The bakers have to have reliable and repeatable timing for each phase of the dough's development from mix to bake, else they will surely be running late and that would only snowball. If the oven isn't yet available, or if the delivery truck needs to go out at, let's say, 11 AM, the baker can't be telling the driver to hold on for another half hour, the dough isn't ready to bake yet.
Not trying to be pedantic here, but they must know their baking environment, figure out how to make their schedule work and how to compensate to stay on schedule based on a clock. At home, I'm comfortable with the clock as my guide.
Hi Al - at the risk of geeking out too much I have a question. Do you know that target protein content of flour used for french baguettes? I don't have rye but do have some whole spelt and thought i'd blend AP, WW and WS to dial in the chewiness of the crust. I'm also thinking of making two baguettes with 10 minutes of S&F and the other two with 20 minutes to compare. Thanks!
Gluten (protein) content: ~ 10%
He's quite particular and I'm pretty sure that kendalm sources his French baguette flour from this site. https://www.lepicerie.com/pastry-ingredients/ingredients/french-flours-traditional-and-organic/le-moulin-dauguste-organic-wheat-flour-t65/
That’s the flour and his current source. I am waiting on 10 kilos right now.
Like every other flour shipped in, the shipping is costly. But at my place in life, why not shoot for the moon.
Will have to try and find something like it. But for today 75% AP and 25% WW works out to 12% on a weighted basis. Unfortunately I miscalculated and just made 195g of levain. But I figure it's not going to change much. I might extend retard by two hours - thoughts?
Also - at the end of retard to you let them come up to room temp again or bake them cold?
Frank, I bake the dough cold straight out the fridge.
Why not just add 30 water and 30 flour to the levain or the final dough, if the levain is finished and you are ready to mix?
Frank, it seems there are 2 distinct camps when it comes to gluten development for baguettes. Heck, for anything bread there are always opposing opinions. AND the thing is both sides produce outstanding products. “Whatever Works”...
This is a subject of great interest to me. I think the fully developed gluten concept is looking for a dough with high gas retention and strong hoop strength. Possibly the slight gluten development bakers are focusing on taste and extensibilty.
Does anyone have other thoughts?
Danny
Hi Dan,
Q1. Has the challenge started yet? I was going to give this a go in the next few days.
Q2. Is it ok to stick with the original Hamelman's formula? I already have it on my spreadsheet in a format similar to his book.
Q3. Is it necessary to retard for final proof? I don't usually and Hamelman gives it as an option. If there is an advantage in retarding other than extra sour, I'm happy to give it a go.
Q4. Where do we post our results, comments or queries along the way?
I'm looking forward to trying this out as I've never considered doing this as baguettes. Kudos to Alan for a great idea.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Gavin, the CB is good to go. I also have a spreadsheet and mixed the Levain @ 60%. Retard or not, it’s up to the baker. Bakes should be posted here, including all documentation and images.
All bakers are free to make their breads as they choose.
“power to the people”
My main learning focus is picking Alan’s brain for shaping and scoring. I watched the shaping video with Martin Philip and his son and found it very helpful.
Danny
Q1. Folks have contributed to Dan's CBs as late as a year or more after posting.
Q2. The old Burger King fast food chain jingle "have it your way" applies here. If you have it in you to add cinnamon or nuts or rusty nails ;-) , have a go. The spreadsheet and method are just a framework, as is the number and weight of each baguette.
I'll go back to what lifelong friend Janet's mom told her when she was a little girl learning crocheting or whatever at her mom's knee. Whatever you make, just change one thing even if it is a little thing, and make it your own. Guiding words.
Q2. Refer to Q2. Also, my levain produces a mostly sweet almost never sour note regardless of how long it or the dough remains cooped up in the refrigerator. To me, the advantage of retarding is to give the bacteria in the levain a chance to eke more flavor out of the dough while keeping the yeast's growth at bay.
This was all Dan's idea, and he had to draw me semi-reluctantly out of my den to be a part of it. I presented Dan with 9 differing options, from cinnamon raisin to potato to olive... And we settled on this one.
Thanks, Danny and Alan for your quick replies. I wasn't expecting any so soon as I'm on the other side of the world :).
I'm planning on baking this in the next few days. I'm tempted to take your advice on retarding the final proof; I'm usually cautious, but I take your point about eking out more flavour from the dough.
Cheers,
Gavin
Alan, you and I are on a similar wave length! First the Bouabsa baggies and now this. I used this same recipe last weekend to make bread including a 2 stage levain and even trying a baguette type scoring. I didn't occur to me to elongate them though.
I like the idea of a basic framework for this CB with room for personal tweaks and exploration. I hope many others will decide to roll with it.
Still plugging away and here is an example of today's run:
The formula comes for the BBGA and is listed as Team USA. The baguettes are formulated and baked in the French tradition and therefore long and lean. My customers absolutely love the flavors generated by a combination of levain and poolish. The yeast content is very low and therefore the rise and grigne are not as pronounced, but I am counseled to not change the flavor in favor of the looks.
Hello to everyone and I hope you all are well.
Jim
Hey Jim! Great to hear from you. I hope all is well in your part of the world.
Would you mind posting the method/process? I’d like to give those beauties a try... The formula is interesting when you consider the 43.4% of the total flour is pre-fermented. I’m thinking, loads of flavor and maximum extensibilty.
While I’ve got your ear, an image of the dough immediately after scoring would be helpful. Like Alan, your baguettes have a very “signature look”.
Danny
Update - I followed Alan’s lead and found this formula and method. Is this the bread? What are the mixing speeds and timing for an Ankarsrum?
I was hoping that the super baguette bakers like you, maurizio and bikeprof would show up here and contribute. And to be another inspiration to those who might want to take the plunge.
Of course we'd love to also see txfarmer, shiao-ping and a few others oldtimers show up here too.
If I recall this is the formula by Solveig Tofte.
alan
The three musketeers who bless us on rare occasions only to disappear off again like dr bombay from bewitched. I am sure they can be found in exotic locations scaling annapurna and navigating the Congo. If only we could summon them by nose twitch and head nod :)
I am going to attempt these soon. They look great! I was hoping you could post a picture of a "definitive" crumb shot. I want to adjust the hydration for my dry location and the flour I am using. I was wondering if the dough should be firm or on the loose side. Would 70% water still be manageable?
The Tweaked formula I use is also based on Hamelman. Developed with lots of help from Alan (Alfonso) It can be found in the video description.
Note:
My method is the one given by Alan above, as to, autolyze, bulk and retard. For the mixing I use the Bosch Universal. I still use the bulk retard for 2 hours, divide shape and cold retard some more. I may try Alans newer method of shaping right after the room temperature bulk.
My gratitude, to Alan and Dan for getting this off the ground!
(Step 2 of part 1)
06/17/2020
10:00 AM:
After 12 hours at room temperature (72F) levian builds, stage 1 are ripe.
Keeping the levians at 125% hydration, I built them up to 370G each. This allows for 10G of bowl residue. For the stage 2 ferment, I moved the levians into my light turned on oven, to ferment at 80-85F. I hope to accelerate the process, to be ready at a reasonable hour. This will accomplish two goals...
1. Keep my wife from having a canary, if I turn on the Bosch at 10:00 PM
2. Have the retarded baguettes ready for an early morning bake.
P.S. The second levian will be refrigerated for a second bake, in a couple of days.
06/17/2020, 2:00 PM
(Step 1 Part2) Autolyze/Fermentolyse
The higher "proofing box" temperature accelerated the stage two ferment to four hours.
The final dough, flours, water, and 360 grams of ripe 125% hydration levian are mixed and set to rest, covered (1 hour) in the Bosch mixer bowl.
After the autolyze is complete, the salt is mixer into the dough, (One minute on #1) Now, the Bosch is cranked up to 2, and the dough takes a five minute ride, then a five minute rest, followed by another five minute ride.
The dough is dropped into the fermenting container, and stretched folded in at the four corners.
The dough ball is already showing nice gluten development
The dough is allowed to ferment at room temperature, for one hour, with in container, stretch and folds at 30 & 60 minutes.
The dough is noticeably more elastic at this point.
The dough is set to ferment untouched, for an additional one hour. I think we may be ready to move on to divide and shape at that time. (We will see)
The dough was divided & scaled to 402 grams. Then the pre-shape and rest.
The shaping
Good night sweetheart, good night...
Wakeup little Suzy, Wakeup!
Good morning, sunshine!
After a quick check on the progress, back into the cooler. As preparations for the final phase begin!
Let's get ready to rumble!
The oven is pre-heating to 450F. Silvia's towel is soaking and the lame is fit with a fresh blade. Shooting for a 6:30 AM -ish bake.
The end game!
Another fun Community bake, bake in the bank. That being said, I am not done with this. I have the levian and can go at the drop of a hat!.
Here is the rub. I am trying to replicate the Italian bread of my youth. I am happy enough with the pale golden color. My mine gripe is, I think I should be getting more over spring at 400 G.? Over and over I keep getting (at best) these results. If only these were a little more, (okay a lot more) chubby, I would be a happy baker.
The bake stats,
Bake temperature - 400F
Steam for first ten Minutes. I was planing to purge the oven at 6 minutes, however, the baguettes were not opened up at all. Never opening the oven I added 4 minutes. (So glad I did) Had I not this might have been a fail.
At ten minutes I purged the oven and rotated the loaves.
After 20, they were still quite pale. I rotated again and 3 more min. I think I did three minutes 2 or three more times.
Besides the obligatory crumb shot, I always like to end with the final product. Enjoy.
I’ve never thought to get two levain ready and then place one in the fridge for a later bake, great idea.
Benny
Alan, mentions in some of his baguette posts, that if the levian is ready, and he is not, he refrigerates it till he is. I took that and ran with it! Smile...
I come from an IT background. The time in service taught me that small mistakes are magnified further down the pipe and ever more difficult to correct.
And I feel that the same mistakes in levain build, BF, Pre-Shape... every one of these has a downstream effect. Can we correct the problems downstream? That depends, and the later the error is isolated and attempted to fix, the more costly/difficult it is. Of course in this exercise the cost is not financial or a QA time sink and push back.
Don't take this to mean that I'm the know-it-all on the hilltop. Naw, I've been there. Many times. So I can speak from personal experience in my former work life as well as in baking.
And I'm not calling out anything on Will's journey here. But seeing his pictorial phases did remind me to mention this. A reminder if anyone needs a reminder. Good pre-shaping can lead to better final shaping. And so. on. Practice makes perfect.
Will, your photographic documentation is excellent. Thanks for taking the time to produce this. I know it will benefit others.
How did they turn out? You've given me the inspiration to get a larger stone than my pizza stone. I'd love to extend my baking to four baguettes or two loaves at a time.
Cheers.
However, I am still having the same issue. I will be posting up the photos and question soon. Unless, I can isolate the root cause of my issue, I will continue on and on getting the same results. Don't get me wrong, these are some of my better baguettes. In order to grow we must question our method and techniques. More later...
P.S. I am leaning in the direction of poor shaping as the underlying culprit.
If you aren't going to supplement a Sylvia Towel with a secondary source - pan w or w/o ex. lava rocks, double up on the towels. You are likely not getting sufficient steam.
400dF is too low. The recommended bake temp is 460 after the oven is heated to 480. kendalm is a great believer in the "heat blast" method for his baguettes, and baking the devils at 500dF or higher. I find 500 in my oven on my deck to be scorchingly too hot.
Shaping is good, scoring is kinda okay but certainly within acceptable parameters in terms of keeping in lanes and overlaps. But your score lines are craggy which could be from blade drag or insufficient surface tension.
Hi, Alan.
I do supplement with boiling water poured into the standard broiler pan. I am pretty sure steam is not the issue. Unless the gas fired oven is venting that fast. On opening the oven I am greeted by a blast of steam. I realized I set my temperature too low too late. That is an easy fix. I can only wish that is the issue. Yes the scoring was poor at best, fail to be quite honest. Allan, do you agree that 400 grams should be giving me the chubby baguettes I am looking for?
But considering your length of 15 inches, there should be some fair girth with good oven spring. The scoring isn't poor. Poor would be starting 1/3 down the baton instead of tip to toe. Or making sausage cuts, or no overlap. It just needs some TLC. I think that you may be a bit hesitant and need to use a quicker and more resolute stroke with the blade. Of course not seeing it and the process in person, it is a bit hard to diagnose further, if I have this right anyway.
I'd mentioned before and as you probably well know it is certainly true for bread baking - it's a two steps forward, one step back process for most of us.
Regardless, it looks like a killer sandwich.
Ah, I felt like I was reliving scoring that bread as you described my hesitation waltz! I As for length, I was shooting for 16" however these are closer to at least 17" Next bake for sure I can fix the temperature. lets hope some other issue does not arise. LOL. Baguettes are truly and art form!
I only say that based on my own experience and equipment so I'm sure it differs with each person's individual equipment and technique. Also having worked with industrial ovens you come to respect a big machine that can handle alot of dough without budging on temps much. The thing I try to emphasize really is that the more dough that gets loaded I think will really begin to stress little home units. It's really more about knowing the dough limit. For me with my old oven it was roughly a kilo of dough at 500f. That 3 loaves. 4 loaves - forget about it. I could also two reliably bake 2 at 450 f. Also Alan your stone is a massive heat sink being as thick as it is. All this comes into factor and often times upstaged by other details (all important of course as we know ever step matters). So hoping to get a dedicated 220 electric soon and get back in the baggie game !
Will, did you notice any difference between the bread baked n the steel and the others that weren’t?
For my taste, the golden brown color you got taste best. Too much browning makes the crust too bitter for me. Personal taste...
I I was pretty happy with the consistency of doneness in the four loafs. I want to run out before my vacation week is over and get a disposable turkey roasting pan, to cover the loafs during the first 10 minutes.
Will they look great.
I have a couple of suggestions to try if you are interested. I have seen a similarity with the previous sticks you have posted and sense your frustration that they are not on the level with your pies which by the way are superb. I think your oven setup and coping with gas is most of the problem because the rest of your process looks solid. A rectangular stone with the pan/cover may be your best option. The other suggestion I would consider is way less mixing. I have a Bosch like yours but I never use it for baguettes and prefer to hand mix so as not to over develop the dough. 10 minutes of speed 2 is what I use for pan loaves to get to window pane. Does the dough feel tight when you are finished mixing? That can lead to less expansion because of too much elasticity and even over oxidizing which can cause the crust to brown less. Try a short mix 3 minutes max and rely on gentle folding.MTCW
MTL, I am going to try your advice. Prior baguette bakes were focused on high gluten development.
For this present bake, I used an hour autolyse, rested 30 min incorporated levain, rest 20 min mixed in salt. Finished off with 2 min Rubaud, light Stretch and Fold.
Additional light Stretch and Fold after an hr, then complete BF. Divide, shape, and retard.
NOTE - Doc taught me to watch for the small gluten bubbles and veins in the dough. When the dough is completely smooth dough is highly developed. I stopped manipulating while the dough showed slight signs of gluten bubbles and veins. The idea is to allow the gluten to continue developing during the BF.
Interested to observe the results...
Danny
My kids and grandkids are coming over tomorrow for fathers day, I have not seen the newest little guy at all, (once for 5 min.) perfect opportunity to bust out that ready to go levian build and have fresh bread for a take home for the kidos. Plus the 5 year old can watch the end game of a baguette being born! Anyhow, I am going to experiment a bit too.
1. Hit Kmart for a disposable roasting pan.
2. I already added .1% (1Gram) of IDY to the flour. By the way I am now in Fermentolyse. Keep your shirts on purists! IDY, is just another tool in the tool kit. Smile... Oh, unless your female, then feel free to take your tops off! Can one still make risque jokes in the 2001 century? Ah, lets not even go there. I am so sick of what goes on in this world!
3. I am going to keep a sharp eye and stop the mechanical mixing when I see that brain like look. (Thanks Dan.)
That's about it. besides take my time and not over thing the scoring. I know the scientific method would be to change only one variable at a time. But hey, who has the time for that! Smile... I may take a photo or two, if I see something I feel I want you guys to see. Thanks again fellas!
Kind regards,
Will F.
I'm female, and the take your shirts off comment made me giggle. - no offense here. I've been known to put SALT in my autolyse (on the top because otherwise I often forget to add it)
and the scientific method comment...I have a family full of scientists - and I'm the oddball creative type. Yes I understand the science, but sometimes time or ? make it so that you just have to trust your gut.
I can't take anything to serous, just not my style. I bet I make lots of folks roll their eyes. But hey it's all in fun!
I can't take anything to serous, just not my style. I bet I make lots of folks roll their eyes. But hey it's all in fun!
I think this just might be a break though bake! I After the same two hour bulk ferment and so far three hours of retardation, I have to say these guys look epic! I don't think they will make it to twelve hr. The poke test if I am correct says they are almost there. I am going to check/ poke them again at 6:30 PM. Going to play this one by ear. Stray tuned!
P.S. They already look better than yesterdays 12 retardation!
That you got those in the oven right away. They look puffy and ready to go into the fire. I hope you are having fun with the grandkids anyway.
No, I disregarded what my brain was telling me. I over proofed, and screwed the pooch! In that photo the dough not only puffy it was tight and would have been a dream to slash! By the time I took them back out the skin was loose as a old mans face! However, as Dan says, we learn as much or more from our mistakes. I was a bit embarrassed but here it goes. It is a shame that I did not get to see them proofed properly, I still say it would have been epic!
I miss those quarantine days of having a dough rising all the time. The yeasted window is a narrow one that opens and closes much quicker than the hour or two here and of a levained version. Retarding the final proof is risky. I think Benito and I went with .01 IDY and you moved a couple of decimal points more to the right of that If I read it correctly. Hey live and learn. I know there will be much joy when you nail the next one. Those still look pretty good. Was the crumb better than expected anyway?
For a total of 1 gram for the 1,600 grams of total dough! I kind of knew they should have been baked ASAP. But I could not wrap my head around them being ready in three hours. In hind site I think my pure sourdough bake loafs, were also over proofed. I think my twice refreshed starter is quite strong! As to the crumb, It is about the same as the first batch, and I was pretty happy with it. What I expect from 67% hydration.
I love the scores opening they way they did - looks great. Also how the heck do you spell pareallellogram ?
I have a question for you all who have bake more baguettes than I have. The two things I’ve had problems with were my dough sticking to my not flax linen couche and shaping when the dough was warm. The 2nd set of baguettes that I made which were more successful, I shaped with cold dough, used some rice flour on my cotton couche and the shaped dough didn’t sit in the couche a long time because they were shaped after the completion of cold retard.
Do you think this shaping after the completion of cold retard would work for this recipe? Is there any reason to think that I need to shape earlier and have the shaped dough complete cold retard in the couche? I’m concerned about the shaped dough sticking again as they did in my first attempt so thought if they sat in the couche for a shorter period that would reduce the likelihood that sticking would happen.
My leaving is fermenting as we speak. I’m working from home today so able to squeeze in the first steps of this bake. Oh yes, I also decided to try the stiff levain 60% from the spreadsheet that Dan kindly sent me, I’ve never tried a stiff levain before.
Benny
Without a real flax linen, you can do exactly what Martin Philip does here before the dough is couched. That will give it a bit of a protective coating of raw flour. Also make sure that you flour the couche well. If you retard with seam side down, any additional flour that gets picked up from the couche will mostly be on the underside of the dough.
OTOH this particular dough at 68% hydration generally requires very little flour for a well seasoned couche. The couche will wick away a surprising amount of moisture during retard, but the baguette should come off it with little trouble.
I've never shaped after completion of retard, almost always somewhere before the midway point and now immediately after BF completes. You could try to shape and return to the couche for a final hour or two, and that should work. This would give the dough time enough to relax in its new shape, as the dough might not "feel comfortable" immediately going from final shaping to scoring and baking . I imagine the late in the process scheme with return to retard would work out well.
alan
Thank you Alan for the excellent suggestions, I will take them under advisement.
I thought I’d share an idea that Danny shared with me in a private message. I am following the 60% levain, I’ve never made a firm levain, and he suggested using a hand blender to mix the levain with the dough water. I would never have thought to do that if he hadn’t shared it with me. Since I do not own a hand blender, I may throw the dough water and levain into a blender to achieve the same final result. Thank you Dan.
Benny
Some bakers couche their baguettes seam side up and others seam side down.
Can you discuss the pros and cons of each?
Thanks...
Best of luck getting to the bottom of this one. I've historically couched seam side down with the idea that the seam stays sealed better if it isn't facing up with no pressure to keep it closed. Anyway that's my personal reasoning.
But let's look farther afield to folks with a world more gravitas and experience than me. The experts:
Martin Philip has this too say...
Jeffrey Hamelman has this to say...
Ciril Hitz has this to say...
Abel Sierra has this to say..."Then shape baguettes as usual and put over flour dusted linen cloth, with the seam up again. This makes a better expansion of the dough and as a result you get a more open crumb, from my point of view."
I could go on, but my keyboard might start to smoke, or at least want to go out for a smoke break ;-)
So I think it is about as clear as mud.
Corgi? I want to hear his story. A purebred? Yes, pun intended. My wife has always wanted one. A Dachshund would be a more appropriate baguette dog for you. My baguettes are more like a Basset Hound.
Thanks for running the herd on this CB. I hope we can bring baguettes to the forefront like you have been hoping for.
She was a mixed breed, basenji and lab. Picked her up from Petsmart adoption days for US$45 total back in 2003. Still in puppyhood here...
A Heinz 57. Cute pup if only our baguettes had ears like that. I saw this on a T-shirt once "The more people I meet the more I love my dogs!" Says a lot about me.
Seam me up Scotty. They expand better and score easier and that goes for the pre shape too.
Your doing great, Alan! Fielding the questions with the skill and agility of Reggie Jackson!
I didn't read what the pros have to say. In my mind, Dan, this is really pretty simple and straight forward.
The Brooklyn Maltese method
1. Seam down in the couch
2. Seam is now up on the flipping board
3. Seam is back down on the peal/baguette pan.
Am I missing something?
Will, I brought up the question because some very skilled bakers, Martin Philip and Able included, couche baguettes seam side up. It sounded counter intuitive, but being inquisitive...
”inquiring minds want to know”
Just as you say, the baguette is top down on the hand peel, but gets easily dropped onto the seam side on the oven peel.
I may have learned why some commercial bakers couche seam side up.
While watching a video the baker couched seam side up. Once the tray of shaped dough filled he placed the uncovered dough into a rolling rack to later be retarded once the rack was filled. He mentioned that if a slight skin was formed it is better on the bottom of the dough rather than the top.
Thus seam side up...
For home bakers, at least for me, it is seam side down for obvious reasons.
that I've seen use these. Zippers on the front. I'm not too sure that any commercial baker would risk compromising the couched dough by chancing it drying out regardless of top or bottom being exposed to the air for too long.
Your idea is interesting nonetheless
It looked like the dough cart would be rolled into a humidified retarder, so the bottoms wouldn’t be exposed to unconditioned air for long.
I was under the impression that the part of the dough that rested against the couche would have some of it’s moisture wicked away. But according to the baker I just watched he wouldn’t agree.
Bread dough, the precise ratio of ingredients, the precision handling, and a bunch of other little things are necessary for consistently excellent bread. I think these difficulties are what draws a lot of analytical and super precise people to baking. The challenge to excel is definitely a big draw for me.
Dan,
Sounds like a fun thing to test!
I'll do a test run tomorrow with two of my loaves and post the results.
I started down this train of thought today and that was a progression for tomorrow. Alan suggested that my dough could be drying out before I get good oven spring. I've also noticed that the tops (non-seam side) of the dough is a bit dried out compared to the bottom/seam side. When I bake from a banneton, I haven't noticed the same thing. The top side seems moister.
I baked side by side baguettes and brushed just a tad of water over the surface of one and let it sit for about a minute before baking. The other I left as is. The top that I brushed down had a more even color. The drier surface was much darker and potentially more on the seared versus caramelized color side of things. This would go along with the video you watched.
Jen
Baguettes done well is an expert endeavor. The signature length, coupled with the relatively small diameter of the dough presents unique challenges for every baker attempting to perfect the style. Open and airy crumb (ideally a crackly crust), uniform shape, and those gorgeous ears make this bread one that is admired by expert bakers and connoisseur alike.
Because of the perceived difficulty of mastering this bread, I chose to focus on shaping and attaining nice, uniform ears. For my initial challenge this is more than enough...
The first baguette bake was shaped as Demi Baguettes and used Alan’s Commercial Yeast formula. Small (150g) breads were chosen. It seemed the small size would ease handling, simplify scoring, and besides they are so darn good looking.
As an early bake I was happy with the shape and ears, but should have BF and possibly proofed longer. I think the crumb was under fermented. Notice the dense crumb around the perimeter of the loaf.
One of the things that would seem to be a challenge in itself is to figure out the length of the baguette when rolling it out. In Martin Philip's video, he employs a piece of parchment paper as his guide, ensuring that the length of the rolled baguette doesn't exceed either the width of the couche or the depth of the oven*.
As with other physical endeavors in life, muscle memory in getting the correct rolled out length comes into play. One should be able to quickly train the movement of the hands and arms. And to roll out a baguette to within an inch of the desired length on a regular basis. Without the need for a guide. But it does take some practice. I doubt that Mr. Philip ever uses a guide in his real work.
*Some folks, like kendalm, may wish to roll out a full length baguette and then load the baguette into the oven across its width rather than head in. For beginners, I would recommend against this.
Early last century the baguette was developed as a way to provide bread early in the day. A new french law limited the hours bakers could bake which forced bread deliveries to late in the day, and meant no fresh bread in the morning. The baguette was more of a long bread stick than a loaf of bread, and it could be built and baked in a short block of time. Soon thereafter creative bakers started augmenting the baguette in many ways, and with many different ingredients, so once again the French legal system stepped in and regulated what one could actually refer to and sell as a "baguette".
The baguette, translated to stick or baton, would have to be created only from wheat flour, water, salt and a leavening agent. The leavening could include a sourdough starter but only in a small, regulated amount. The balance would have to be yeast. The baguette could weigh a maximum of 300 grams and be between 55 and 65 centimeters (22 - 26 inches). Imagine for a moment taking 300 g of dough and forming it into a 65 cm tube. "Stick" or "baton" would be an apt comparison.
Most of us don't have an oven that can bake something 22 - 26 inches long so we compromise. Additionally Americans like to stack things inside a baguette where, in France, this would be uncommon. Here in the US our baguettes have gotten wider and heavier (much like our population) to accommodate our food preferences.
I think Martin would agree that after you have shaped tens of thousands of baguettes, you really don't need a measuring device anymore. With that said, if you want to truly make baguettes in the French tradition, scale everything down to match the requirements noted above.
Happy baking to everyone.
Based on the diagram in M. Calvel's The Taste of Bread, what I bake, and now most of what TFLers bake qualify as Long Batards. Matching in length, weight and number of scores. I began to refer to my bakings in most posts as both after reading that description two years or so ago.
The too small to read text at the bottom describes a long batard as 350g unbaked weight, 4 scores and length of 13 3/4 to 15 3/4 inches.
For the M. Calvel record, what I bake is a long batard, but given the constraints of the home oven I'm comfortable settling on both terms.
You nailed the shape and ear Dan! Are you happy with the flavour and texture?
The flavor on the CY baguettes were fair at best. It didn’t utilize a poolish, but if it did it would taste much more complex.
They seemed to be under-fermented, so the texture was not what it should have been.
An opinion -
Baguettes, like other breads are judged visually by those on the Internet. What other choice do we have? An Instagram loaf, for example, can have killer looks and taste like a dud. My initial goal is cosmetic, but after that is achieved flavor and texture will be given priority. Jim, aka Jimbtv mentioned above that his present commercial baguettes are not the best looking but his customer insist on it’s flavor.
Great bread looks phenomenal and taste even better...
Bake #2, below, has good texture, pleasant chew, looks decent. All aspects need improvement, but the bones are there for success.
These look great and speak to my regular rant about physics and how small loaves respond well in the oven. This reminds me of docdoughs timelapse on bloom formation. I think every home baker should do little minis like this at least once to really appreciate how volume and surface are work ;)
These baguettes were baked using Alan’s SD formula and method above. Up until this baguette, I thought Commercial Yeast made the best tasting baguettes. These are very good eating. The crust and crumb are substantial but in no way hard to chew. Will SD baguettes have a much better shelf Life than CY? CY baguettes are good for about 24 hr. After that they go down hill quickly, IMO.
Each of the 4 loaves below were baked separately with different oven temps and steam settings.
Bake #1
500F - Steam for first 3 min - 1 min steam after 4 min - 1 min steam after 8 min - Used parchment paper - oven rack 1 level higher than the middle - Backed 20 min
Bake #2
485F - No steam - Heavy spritz after initial load - Additional spritz after 5 min - No parchment - Middle rack - Baked 20 min
Bake #3
485F - Pre-steamed 1 1/2 min - Steamed 2 1/2 min after loading dough - Rack in middle position - No parchment - Left the dough our of fridge and on counter for 30 min - Baked 18 min
Bake #4
485F - Pre-steamed 1 1/2 min - Steamed 2 1/2 min after loading dough - Rack in middle position - No parchment - Left the dough our of fridge and on counter for 60 min - Baked 16 min
For those that are not aware, I use an External Steam Generator. This is how the steam timing is handled. The appliance is nice to have, but is definitely not necessary for great bread. Almost no bakers on the forum use a device like this.
I welcome suggestions and instructions for improvement. I’m wide open to learn...
Danny
Good looking baguettes Dan, you’ve obviously done these before.
Benny
#s 3&4 are superb!
Thanks Alan.
I may have learned something valuable today. I read in Jim's post that he instructs to pre-steam the oven prior to loading the dough. In the past I was of the opinion that pre-steaming was a waste because the heat of the oven would completely dissipate the humidity before the dough was loaded.
You know me. I’ll give most anything a try. The result can be seen in Bakes 3 & 4 of the second bake. As of now, I am a pre-steamer.
Dan
The fourth spot cleared the bases. You guys are going to bat around before I get a chance to come to the plate. Really nice crumb with the whole grain version. I would have thought the extreme steam generator would have made the crust more thin and crispy. Is it possible to have too much steam? I want to try this recipe also but I am intrigued by the USA BBGA that I have had my eye on for a while. I never fully explored the poolish baguette or low hydration and they look appealing.
I don’t ever remember baking a bread with a thin crackly crust, so I have no experience there. But I sure would love to...
Wished I wouldn’t have blown the BBGA Team USA Baggy. The formula is intriguing. I haven’t gotten to taste them yet, but will post when I do.
Glad to hear you are joining in.
Danny
I used Jim’s favorite formula from the Team USA 2008 Baguette Competition. I was intrigued with the fact that it uses 2 pre-ferments (SD & poolish) totaling 43.3% PPF. Haven’t tasted them yet but expect intense flavor from these.
This turned out to be the Bake from Hell!
They were baked 2 at a time with various oven and steam settings. I went longer lengths on 3 of them this time. The dough was loaded side ways on an improved 22” board. The loading process went off without a hitch. I foresee long baguettes in my future. 22” would be a “legit” baguette.
NOTE - All breads were baked 2 at a time. Bake #1 & 2, followed by Bake #3 & 4. The following setting were used for all 4 breads. 485F, pre-steamed oven for 1 1/2 min - on the middle rack, and used no parchment. Variations are listed below.
Bake #1 & #2
Steamed 3 min after loading dough (NOTE - after 3 min the oven spring was very noticeable) - the dough were loaded side ways on a custom cut stone to facilitate the long length - Baked 16 min - Internal temp 208F
*** All Crumb Shots will be posted after the breads are sliced. The neighbors are getting "happy feet".
Bake #3 & #4
Steamed 2 min after loading dough - Baked 14 min - Internal temp 207F
I got to taste this one. Keep in mind many things were very wrong with this bread. I liked this one less than the first and second bakes. All three bakes used different formulas. So far, Alan’s SD formula (posted in the original post) takes the taste honors.
After all of the problems with this batch, I am thrilled they came out at all. The diastatic malt is a great aide for crust browning. A little goes a long way.
Danny
This challenge lived up to its name as I had never baked baguettes using a sourdough before nor had I ever used a stiff levain.
My approach was to be true to the Hamelman formula, however, DanAyo recommended from experience, an increase in hydration from 68% to 72% for people who mill their own whole-wheat and whole-rye flour. This was a good suggestion that I adopted. The bread flour I used for this bake is 11.5% protein, and I milled the whole rye and whole wheat ingredients.
My regular liquid levain is based on white flour at 125% hydration. However, this formula calls for a stiff levain of 60% hydration. So out with Excel spreadsheet and calculated the conversion; a liquid levain to a stiff levain. I let the stiff levain mature at room temperature, about 21°C for 12 hours.
To convert my liquid levain (125% hydration) to a stiff levain (60% hydration)
Liquid levain
225g
Bread flour
108g
Water
0
Total
333g
That was far too much for my immediate use. Next time I will halve the amount. I guess that is the price of entry into this experiment.
The second build of the levain is at 60% hydration with 20% culture seed from my new stiff levain. I let this mature at room temperature for 12 hours. We are in winter where I live and our house temperature drops to around 17°C/63°F overnight, so I let it go an extra 2 ½ hours after the heater was turned on.
I calculated the final dough weight for 680 grams so I could bake two 340 gram baguettes as that’s the size limit of my oven and pizza stone.
Bulk fermentation for 2 ½ hrs at 24°C/75°F with two letter folds at 50-minute intervals. Then scale and pre-shape, bench rest for 20 minutes. Shape into baguettes and place into folded baker’s linen seam side up. Proofed at 24°C/75°F for 2 ½ hrs. I didn’t retard in the refrigerator.
I inverted the baguettes onto a wooden peel and loaded then into a pre-steamed oven. Baked at 238°C/460°F for 15 minutes, then lowered to 215°C/420°F for the last 10 minutes.
Tasting: My wife is the harshest of adjudicators, and her comment was “Wow! Best Baguette ever. Full of flavour with the wheat taking centre stage”. I guess it won’t be the last I bake these.
Thanks for the opportunity to extend my skills.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Wow Gavin, those are amazing! You even got good ears on them too.
Benny
Thanks, Benny. I even amazed myself :)
I held my breath at every step not knowing what to expect.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Another one hit out of the park!
Shaping, scoring and browning was great. The shaped dough looks like even cylindrical columns...
How would you describe the handling of the dough while final shaping, considering you went with 72%?
The dough was wetter than I've experienced from the time it came out of the mixer. But it was noticeably getting stronger during the bulk each time I folded. By the time I pre-shaped and rested and shaped them into the baguettes, the dough was easy to manipulate while holding their integrity but much softer than I had previously experienced. I could sense that they were going to respond during the final fermentation. I was excited when I took the lid off my proofing box at the end of the final fermentation to see the baguettes had developed very nicely. The oven spring was great. Thanks for your guidance.
Cheers,
Gavin.
to pick up your diploma when your name is called.
Gavin
An honour from you. Cheers.
I'm just another goofball in the crowd that got good from a lot of practice and attention to detail.
Now, had you mentioned the above because my guidance helped you to organize your sock drawer better, well, that would be another thing!
Those are some gorgeous ears!
Mine weren’t very successful. I think they maybe overproofed, but unsure how they possibly could have. They didn’t get much in the way of oven spring and the crust just wouldn’t colour, so I’m thinking over proofing is the culprit. I bulk fermented at around 80ºF and didn’t see practically any rise in volume. I haven’t cut them yet, but they don’t look promising.
Maybe a small amount of diastatic malt would help. I know it would fix the coloring. When I think about it, my dough didn’t rise much at all either, but they grew quickly in the oven. What formula did you use?
Many bakers are aware, but it bares repeating. “Because of the unique length to girth ratio, baguettes are a beast to perfect”. On one hand you want a very tight shaped circumference to produce ears, but that same tight shape is apt to restrict open crumb, unless there is relatively huge oven spring to fracture the crust and cause ears and allow space for cell expansion.
It may help us all to consider this. Baguettes are handled very differently from most other shapes. When shaping other shapes of SD we are super cautious when handling the dough. Heavy degassing is out of the question. Preserving the gas, especially when pursuing open crumb is an absolute. BUT, consider the baguette. The dough is patted down aggressively during pre-shape and shaping. Then we take the little critter and roll in around the bench, using some degree of hand pressure to make the high spots conform to desired circumference. Baguettes are unique! I have a long way to go, but the journey is exciting.
It may be that baguettes are more challenging in every way. Think about it. Gluten development, dough characteristics, handling, shaping, scoring, and (as KendalM) is quick to point out the actual baking process with steam. And who knows what else I failed to mention.
Others may have very different opinions. But for me, oven spring is king. “Without oven spring, great bread is not possible.”
Hopefully others will share their opinions. Most avid bakers are perpetually seeking to perfect their skill.
I used the Hamelman recipe reduced to 880 g total dough with the single stage levain at 60% hydration. I certainly got minimal oven spring. My second ever baguettes and only successful baguettes which were IDY had good oven spring and that was a major difference between these and those. I agree without oven spring, great bread is not possible.
I’ve just cut one open eventhough it is slightly warm to the touch and the crumb is gummy and closed and some huge holes at the top, totally underproofed. What I’ve been noticing lately is that when I’m using white flour my levain is much slower to rise. I thought it was the water for a while, but my partner tested it at work and the chlorine levels are really low.
When I make these again, I’m going to have to proof for longer. I will consider adding some diastatic malt to the dough.
Opinions and suggestions? I’d appreciate all comments. Thanks.
Benny, how did the levain ferment go? How much did it grow in height?
Benny, did you mill your whole grain in home? If so, what hydration did you use?
I don’t home mill, but I stuck with the 68% hydration as per the recipe.
It grew about 80% when it started to level off and lose its dome.
review this post please http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59105/1-post-2-builds-3-levains
One sentence summary - don't expect all levains to react the same during builds or refreshes.
Benny, I think 80% levain rise may be your problem. Like you , my 60% levain was done in a single build. Since it was refreshed a day or 2 prior, the levain was built (1:3:3) straight out of the fridge for an overnight ferment @ ~73F.
This is important. A dry (60% hydrated) starter should rise more than a wet one. In my case the levain more than tripled, maybe quadrupled. It was strong and very domed at maturity. It resembled a ~66-68% bread dough.
It is possible the levain was under-proofed, and because of that brought a diminished number of microbes to the game.
I should have expected the stiffer levain to be able to rise more than the 100% hydration levain that I am used to using. Despite what I originally thought about the appearance of the crumb and lack oven spring meaning over proof, the crumb obviously says that it was grossly under proofed. I will have to do this again and do an overnight longer cooler fermentation for the levain.
A question for you guys, what sort of rise did you see with your doughs at the end of bulk fermentation when you called it?
Thanks for the help guys.