This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
I think I used KA AP for the Team USA batch. BUT I can’t imagine it wouldn’t taste better with the french stuff... :-)
Geremy has evangelized me! I am converted...
Truth be told - I took the baguettes baked with American flour out of the freezer and fed the birds. Like I said, don’t try champagne if the only thing you can get is kool aid.
Danny has come around - now I can collect my commission from the republique of france !
Geremy, your commission is well deserved...
I was getting ready to shape and couche some Bouabsa. I must have stored the couche damp. It has a little mildew. It is baking in my oven at the lowest temp (170F). I plan to kill the creatures. I read that a couche should never be washed. Has anyone washed there’s. Mine is flax linen.
I always have to cringe when I hear sourdough converts whinge about CY. There is some truth to the fact that bread especially here in usa taste so mediocre with CY and I believe its because the flour is generally mediocre. Like many food products here, the high level of processing is just a fact of life. Americans demand it because processing makes food visually appealing. Take for example store bought tomatoes - until I came to the usa as a teen I had never ever seen so much picture perfect looking produce in a supermarket - looks great but generally lacking in flavor that is to the genetic engineering that produces visual but tasteless produce. I was accustomed to helping my mother sort out fruit and veggies from the supermarket finding many blemished items and now we just grab any apple, tomato or whatever and that's that, until soon you're missing all that flavor you were once accustomed to enjoying. Now on the topic if bread, butter and cheese - this was an absolute shocker quickly discovering the difficulties finding good bread, butter and cheese. White loaves in bags here are awful. Cheese is much like plastic and butter, well it's supposed to be yellow not white. Not saying that you cant get good stuff here (if you hunt for it) but the point is that the run-of-the mill items are just energy ... not food (at least as I know it). The result of this processed food culture is the belief that sourdough is so bloody superior to regular bread. Well sure when you compare it (home baked sourdough) to regular white bread from the supermarket or even many fancy bakeries. But in reality, really good white bread made from FSWY is incredible ! In short I'm just really happy for dan right now !
the final proofing should be 60-90 minutes on the counter at 76dF. I immediately placed the baguettes into the refrigerator and they stayed there for 3 hours without any further bench time. That should have easily been the equivalent of the bench rest.
Perhaps I mistakenly changed out a poke test, which likely has minimal value for a refrigerated dough, with another Hamelman technique. He said to caress the dough with cupped fingers and hand as one would do to a loved one's arm" to get a reading on the dough's readiness. So I did, and it felt "right". On the plus side, the dough didn't slap my face when I did it!
My pre-shaping was about as gentle as could be, but you stated that you think your dough's strength came from a tight pre-shape.
Tomorrow's another day!
“ Hamelman technique. He said to caress the dough with cupped fingers and hand as one would do to a loved one's arm" to get a reading on the dough's readiness”
Not right -
He used that analogy to describe the way to handle the dough during shaping. Listen for the first 15 seconds.
True, but this is a more recent description and I probably combined the two.
https://youtu.be/eCgFlLhNbq4?t=1746
It could have been something to do with the small amount of NY and perhaps it also had an effect on the flavor. Maybe the reduced elasticity got your ears to do a very un-Alfanso thing. I would still try the seam up non retarded proof to see how it works with the poolish and lose the NY.
The shaping looks spot on as yours always are and now you’re doing the longer baguettes. It is strange that you didn’t get the usual ears and grigne that you always do. Maybe the NY works against those features by reducing surface tension by increasing extensibility and reduce elasticity too much.
Had a nice first run. The loading went smoothly and no parchment was burned in the making of this picture. I made the BBGA USA again because every new recipe deserves a second chance. Maybe it was from all the practice lately or the 70% hydration but this dough was a pleasure to work with and as easy as any I have had yet. The extra tension in the pre shape really helped to roll them out. I am still getting the bursting oven spring but the crumb is nice and open when that happens.
This made for a nice tuna salad sandwhich.Everyones baguettes are improving so much. We will have this thing down pat in a few years.
Don, like Alan you produce signature baguettes! You don’t have to read who baked them to know where they originated. A high compliment in my book.
super nice...
It is a funny thing that it doesn't seem to mater much which formula we bake they almost always have that same look. And to me, as well as to you, consistency is an essential feature for judging our own skillset.
Very beautiful baguettes Don. The crumb is nice and open and they now have signature look but longer and still gorgeous.
It's a nice recipe. A hybrid version that relies more on yeast than Abel's and the dough was nice to work with. I think with baguettes it's best to pick a recipe you like and just work with it rather than changing up all the time like with SD bread. It's been a fun CB and it got me back into the swing of making batons on a more than regular basis. I have about run out of things I can post about but I hope you and others will continue the quest and I will be cheering you on and helping where I can.
Thanks for your participation, Don! Your post and images have added great value to the CB.
Danny
It has been a fun CB owing much to your relentless enthusiasm and the captivating nature of baguettes. I hope others in the future are inspired by the circuitous road map we put down here and continue to post and contribute to The King of Breads.
Keep up the good work and Happy Baking
Don
Well, the jig is up. After all these years, it turns out that I was posting ShutterStock photos of bread all along. Or at least it seems that way...
Two steps forward, two steps back. Maybe no steps in either direction. After yesterday's sad entry, where there were at least a few positives, emphasis on few, I decided to abide by MTloaf's suggestions to correct things. Hence:
Additional changes:
Results:
Overall a disheartening experience due to a 2nd run with changed parameters applied. And one that I'll put behind me by baking something more reliable next time.
I don't recognize the signature. You know I never had that much luck with his recipe either. The color photos of baguettes in his book are clean and tidy and ready for the judging table. The courone made with baguette dough is pretty spectacular though but they don't look anything like the ones from his videos. We all seem to be going for wands with the ear and grigne pronounced and an open crumb. We both are going to end up right where we started this trek. The Babouabsa magnifique. Cheers Friend it has been great baking with you on this baguette odyssey.
now that you've really started to. As you likely know, I'll take pretty much anything, any formula that piques my interest and try it out as a baguette. Maybe I can hook you into doing the same too.
It's bakes like these past two that keep my feel grounded, I suppose. When I went looking around at images posted on TFL and elsewhere of this same baguette, very few were worth writing home about. So I guess I'm in the middle of all that company.
And agreed, that for my money also, the Bouabsa is still king of the hill.
That is so true, both Alan and Danni have been the absolute most consistent bakers on this site since I’ve been around. It would be amazing one day to have that kind of consistency.
Like in the fun house, there's really only one boule but the reflections make it look like eight.
as I have been there so often in the last few months that I thought I had totally lost the ability to make decent bread. A chance change of flour and it was if a magic dust had been sprinkled. I still struggle with baguettes and will put that aside for now, but I made the Hamelman baguette with poolish often in the past (as boule or batard) and could never get the really open crumb or ear I wanted. my experience matched yours. Your usual baguettes are amazing and something to aspire too.
this CB is incredible even if my own efforts weren’t - I have learnt such a lot
bake happy Alan
Leslie
I've mentioned to Dan, off posts, that it would make a great learning tool and manual for someone (not really me!) to piecemeal all the "lessons" that have transpired here on this CB. Not just for baguettes, but for baking in general. So much exchange of learned experiences here.
Yeah, when I'm used to getting it "right", even if I hadn't done it before, it comes out of left field (is that a kiwi expression too?) to be stymied. And be unable to diagnose it makes for double-trouble because I can't point back to any event or step where I violated some procedure that muck the results up. Oh well, back to some reinforcement - meaning things I've done that are not this formula!
Thanks for commiserating! alan
I’ve been reading up on TFL and found an interesting post by dmsnyder responding to Janedo about scoring and his observations.
” 1. The lame blade should be held at a 45 degree angle to the surface of the loaf.
2. The depth of the cuts does not have to be super deep. 1/4 - 1/2 inch.
3. The cuts should not be too long. About 5-7 cm seems right.
4. The cuts should angle only slightly from the long axis of the loaf.
5. The cuts should overlap about 1/4 of their length.”
”I downloaded most of the videos of Prof. Calvel's lessons from the CIA (Culinary Institute of America.) I watched him scoring baguettes over and over. He uses a French lame with a curved blade. His strokes are very fast and firm. He holds the lame with the concavity toward him. With each stroke, he does a little wrist turn which lifts the cut flap up from the surface of the loaf a bit, I think. I suspect that's the way to get an ear and good grigne. That's the next refinement of technique I want to shoot for.“
Based on his observations I am still scoring too shallowly and too parallel to the dough surface. I will have to aim for the goals above and hope I get good oven spring to support getting ears and grigne.
in terms of handling the scoring aspect. David Snyder was one of the earliest proponents and displayers of great scoring skills on TFL.
Bouabsa, T65, 66% hydration. This particular T65 develops gluten with little to no effort. It is a weak flour but at 66% hydration it was slightly elastic and could have used more extensibility. 2% more water and this dough changes dramatically. Future bakes with this flour will progressively increase the hydration and receive very little machine and/or hand development. Again, these are the lightest, crackly, crunchy baguettes. Unlike those made with any other flour.
I followed Maurizio’s advice to proof the dough a great deal in order to produce open crumb. So the BF went ~1.5 hours at 78F then retarded ~16 hours (DT 39F), then shaped couched and proofed ~1 hour at 74F. The dough felt somewhat airy, but not overly so. Slashing went well, probably due to 66% hydration.
The Demi on the top left was parbaked. (First 12 minutes). It was wrapped in foil and frozen. It will be re-baked at 350F for ~7 minutes as a test.
Considering 66% hydration, the crumb turned out very nice. Next time a little more water, though.
I met a baker on Face Time from China, Chen Sen. I was intrigued with his shaping, and asked for his help. I have a lot of work to do, but hopefully (with practice) I can learn to shape something similar.
He was kind enough to send this thumbnails. They are 350 grams and ~20.5 inches in length.
I have to say that I like the shape of Cheng Sen’s baguettes. If I can eventually figure out the right amount of flour for the counter along with getting the dough to be the just right extensible, I’d love to make those smoothly pointy baguettes.
Benny, Have you tried shaping on a silicone baking mat? Doc mentioned the mat recently. I gave it a try and really like shaping on it. Spritz a little water on the bottom of the mat and lay it on your counter. It is marvelous!
I think shaping has a lot to do with the characteristics of the baguette dough. With the proper fermentation (not too airy) and the right extensibility, we have a great chance for success. It’s only a theory at this time, but I am focused on finding out if this is correct. Proper hydration is vital, I think...
Yes I used the Silpat silicone mat the last two times that I shaped, I’m not convinced that it made it easier for me to shape, on the other hand, it did give me a guideline for how long to roll the baguettes to. Hopefully I’ll figure this eventually I think I just still need more practice.
You are in the groove Dan. There was a baguette baker in you that was trying to get out and you have released the beast. I really like how you are baking them now. You have figured out your oven an it is working well for you. Your scoring is exemplary and now pointy ends for a new point on the compass to follow. I have found the 73 DT to work well with the IDY and it does help with extensibility.
I did do some Bouabsas with ADY used like IDY today. The dough had risen too much in the fridge so I folded it and put it back in until this afternoon and they worked out really well so if that happens sometime just degas and delay. Then out of the fridge and into the oven in less than an hour.
I wanted to use the natural light from the window for a change. Someone please stop me. I can't find the off switch.
Did you notice that he does his bulk ferment with the dough flat so that divide produces a long piece of dough and preshape/shape does not have to do much stretching to get to final length? So you use the retard to fully relax the dough, then cut a strip off the edge that is almost as long as your final baguette. That should provide a large amount of flexibility.
It's hard to tell how long your baguettes are in your picture. The tapering and scoring is first class. For a guy who wouldn't sniff in the direction of anything without pure sour baked into it, you've done a 180 and come around to the fabulous pleasures fo the Bouabsa. With a nice consistent hole structure to the crumb. You're hooked, brother! The simplest formula and at the same time best IDY dough out there.
If you want to try a dough that has an even crunchier and cracklier thin crust, then one day look into the pan de cristal - glass bread. An issue is that it is so unmanageably wet that it resists anything but the most rudimentary shaping. Basically gently pulling it into shape and then leaving it alone. But a really open crumb and crust as described above.
Don,
the red circle in the image below shows one of my major shaping goals. That is perfect! If only I can do the consistently on both ends. It seems that almost all bakers suffer the left hand - right hand problem, causing un-symmetrical shaping at both ends. I have go so far as to rotate the dough 180 degrees trying to solve my issue. Not a great fix.
Doc,
“Did you notice that he does his bulk ferment with the dough flat so that divide produces a long piece of dough and preshape/shape does not have to do much stretching to get to final length? Don, does something similar that I have adopted. Used to Bulk Retard in a round Cambro, but now use a rectangular vessel instead. This way when the dough is removed to the counter it is more easily divided and shaped into elongated pieces. This has become a great benefit. It also cools faster, since the dough isnot piled as high.
Alan,
Both Abe and I tried Pain de Cristal. We both failed miserably. BUT, check out the formula and instructions. That guy is a phenom!
It seems the full evangelization and conversion to baguettes has finally run it’s course. Yesterday, THIS ORDER was placed :-)
although at a meager 95% hydration! As you probably know, I'm not a fan of putting anything but the bare minimum of raw flour, if that, anywhere near my dough once it has been mixed. Here's my most recent bake from last year. I think mine is in the running with Fueled's video version.
It's hard as heck to get a much better shaping without using some type of baking support "cradle".
Look cool but they take up precious oven space. I have been so focused on getting an even barrel that the ends were not emphasized. I usually end up with sticky dough ends before rolling and it makes it harder to work but the last couple of bakes the dough was so nice to work with that I could give the pointy ends a go. The graceful taper is the most attractive and yet another level to attain. Keeping the base of the palms and the fingertips on the bench as Hammelman says in the shaping video has helped me lately.
Dan,
Where are you getting the T65 flour? Is it European or domestic?
This is my only real source in the states. KendalM (TFL user) is a baguette baker, extraordinaire. He told me about them. It is imported from France and the flour is milled from French grown wheat. A lot of french flour is milled from American and Canadian wheat, which would cause it to have different characteristics.
https://www.lepicerie.com/pastry-ingredients/ingredients/french-flours-traditional-and-organic/le-moulin-dauguste-organic-wheat-flour-t65/
Please consider joining the bake, Phil...
When we last saw the Pie King, a an epiphany reveled a revaluation. I had been over proofing my baguettes! Lets see if we can cure this malfunction! 3 levian builds will equal 3 @ four baguette bakes in the near future!
The very active mother culture
Three stage #1 levian builds
Moving right along. The ripe Stage two levian
Final dough, Salt and .93 Gram commercial yeast kick starter.
Zero of 120 Minutes
120 of 120 Minutes
Irregularly shaped/sizes baguettes to proof.
I love the sounds/smell of baguettes in the morning!
Not to disappointed, While these will not win any awards, they will make some tasty heroes!
Will, So glad to see you “back on the horse” again! GettieYup...
Will. I think a concensus has been formed. The bulk ferment and followup bulk retard should not be very airy. If doing a Final Proof at room temp, that can go a little farther, but be mindful of slashing.
We almost corralled the stampede but the herd is off and running again. They left a trail for you to follow. Ride'em cowboy
or as full as my oven will allow. No lucky rabbit's foot, but I think that I located my mojo this last bake, going back to more comfortable territory while still trying to learn the secrets of the longer baguette.
The details:
Yikes! I gave the wrong Letter Fold timing. I was mixing a batch of rye dough at the same time. That's the 20,40,60.80 min. folds. This bread gets folds at 50 & 100 min. in my warm kitchen.
The takeaway:
The halfway point and starting to look good
a little thin, alla a ficelle
turned up noses
What it's all about
\
330g x 3 baguettes (baked weight 247)
Alan, that overhead shot is gorgeous! They a really beautiful.
How much WW did you use?
That sandwich looks goood.
the remainder is just as written at the top of the whole shebang. 20% WW, 5% rye.
Between the tiny bit of NY and my getting familiar with the longer shaping, I'm certainly feeling the facility of shaping coming together. For my "training wheels", just by good fortune, my hand peel is 21 1/4" long, so I lay that on the countertop closest to me and roll immediately above that.
The turned up noses that MT(?) first mentioned was an unanticipated bonus, I suppose.
Simple and just the right amount of meat and cheese for lunch. However it kills my usual desire to have a yogurt or cottage cheese, as they get pushed to the back of the food line ;-).
One other thing. Now that I'm not shooting the photos under the incandescent, the breads are looking too yellowish. The mini-sandwich picture is the more realistic color. Maybe for color saturation I just can't win.
thanks.
Alan, you’ll need to get either a camera with a ultra wide lens, longer arms, or a ladder to take photos of your new long and slender baguettes to fit them into a photo. They are a marvel and really great looking. Your new signature look.
He mentioned that he "ape-long" arms, hopefully it isn't in his gene pool ;-) .
I thought that with the countertop rest of 40 minutes, they would have shown a bit more expansion in the oven rather than maintaining their super slender shape. After the two previous bakes, the toast was actually quite good from that 2nd bake, I was quite pleased that I was back to game-on. And this was definitely my best shaping of the longer batons. Looking toward making a Vermont SD like this to see what it does.
Thanks.
The long skinny baguettes just have that special look. Soo french...
Now that's a good look for a French sandwich. Skinny crusty bread, and some, but not too much, meat and cheese. I don't do butter on my meat sandwiches (or any sandwich), so I can't claim any real French-ness to it. Dark deli mustard is my go-to schmear.
I'm looking forward to an almost all white bake, so I can see what's what with shaping and scoring. And I think that the smidgeon of NY was the ticket. Made the job easy. In no way am I abandoning the long batards, and I don't imagine needing to mix the NY into those batches, but these are 50% longer so I'll stick to plan on the longer batons.
Have you ever had this Polish mustard. If not you must try it! kosciusko mustard. The sticks/stilts, look amazing!
across the bridge from LIC into Greenpoint two summers ago and stopped at a traditional pub for a light dinner at the bar. Can't recall. But I grew up on Gulden's Spicy Brown mustard. That typical pale yellow stuff is vapid.
Gulden's Spicy Brown mustard is my favorite too so there is another thing we have in common. Nice looking samich.
that i know. I cant believe you got burst with them being so thin, but then again of course I
Ftr wingspan is almost 8 inches longer than body. Now do you believe me ?
Awesome lunch Will.
The only thing missing, for my taste, is the sesame semolina bread. But yours will do just fine!
Your bake came out pretty nicely. As I can see, at least from these photos, the three score baggie was the weak link and least impressive of them all, but good shaping and otherwise pretty good scoring. On the right track, you are!
alan
I don’t feel that I’m progressing and improving lately. This time I tried a different flour, it wa labelled as T55, but when I opened the package it had a fair amount of bran left in the flour. I decided to use it anyways since I purchased it. It wasn’t as dark as a whole red fife, but nowhere near as pale as AP or bread flour.
I used the same formula with some minor changes including going back up to 1% diastatic malt and increasing the hydration to 73%. I did no slap and folds mixing the salt in with Rubaud kneading. I did two sets of coil folds and the dough had developed a good windowpane after the 2nd set. I did a bulk cold retard, this time it lasted 25 hours.
This dough was crazy extensible even without any NY. Unfortunately I had decided to roll it when I realized how extensible it was. I should have pre-shaped the 2nd and 3rd ones as boules to tighten them up, but of course I only thought of it after I had rolled all three. After a short bench rest, not wanting them to relax too much I shaped them. Again they were already quite long before I had a chance to even try to roll them, so in the end they were too long and I had to squeeze them onto the couche. I’m sure I lost any surface tension in the skin that I may have developed during shaping because of this.
Baked with the steaming gear above the baguettes which I think is the way to go for my oven. Baked @ 500*F for 13 mins with steam then an additional 13 mins rotating them. They got a bit too much colour this time. Oh I side loaded them this time.
I’ll cross my fingers that the crumb is fine, but I have my doubt considering the problems with them being too long and my having to shorten them on the couche.
Image
Image
Benny, that doesn’t sound anywhere near T55. Don’t forget, you can lop off the length if they stretch out too long.
You might consider a little tape on the counter to show the desired length.
It is disappointing when you get the sticks dialed in and then the next few bakes you find yourself going backwards. But if you can learn something while headed in reverse it will be valuable. Bakers MUST be persistent...
The degree of failure, is in direct relationship to the ecstasy of success!
No it doesn’t sound like T55 at all. The store I purchased from both this time and the last usually sells this flour in bulk that you scoop out yourself. But because of the pandemic they are bagging it up and labeling it. Unfortunately it was in a brown bag and not a clear plastic one so I didn’t know what I bought until I opened it up at home. Such is life. Anyhow I baked it up and it will be interesting to see what the crumb looks like.
I keep forgetting to lop off some of it when it gets too long, duh, now that is twice you’ve told me, you’d think I’d learn.
Next time I will bake with the 12% AP flour and see what happens, at least I know it is a white flour.
I haven’t given up, I’ll keep at it until I get some level of success and eventually consistency.
I may actually use this flour again and take into account its extensibility. I may decrease the hydration down to 70% and pre-shape tighter and in a boule. That’ll give me more room to roll and stretch during final shaping.
Image
Looks good to me. How would you describe the crust, crunch, and texture? IMO, those qualities are extremely important for baguettes. Your flour sounds a lot like Geremy described his T85.
I could see that this flour could be T85, it certainly has some bran in it that I wouldn’t have expected T55 to have.
In any event, the crust was once again crisp and thin, shatters when you bite into it. The crumb was nice and soft. In fact, we enjoyed the flavour of this set of baguettes. My partner says they are the best so far for flavour LOL.
I’ve started another overnight 100% levain and will get the dough going again tomorrow using the same flour, whatever it might actually be. I’ll hopefully deal with the pre-shaping and shaping better now knowing how extensible it is.
I wonder though, was my dough so extensible because in part the levain was past peak? Being past peak having fallen about 0.5 cm it would have had quite the high acid load, this acid load being transferred to the final dough may have partially resulted in some of the extensibility, what do you think?
Don’t know, Benny. I have no experience lately with SD for baguettes.Bouabsa with CY only is the present pursuit. If the higher ash French flour produces the same crunch, crisp, and texture as T65 I would be interested. Im getting a sample of T85 next Monday. Excited to give it a try.
Here is a close up shot of the flour. It is nowhere near whole red fife for bran, but it is far from AP for lack thereof.
Looks more like a T75 than T55
Having had only one experience with flour with a T rating, all I can say is that this wasn’t the T55 I had before that was amazing. T75 it could be as well. Either way, I will bake with it again as it actually tasted good. I was worried that it would have a very whole wheat flavour which I don’t love in baguettes but it did not.
Equally doubtful but still could be T55.
There are plenty of tiny bran flecks in all the 00 flours I use.
?♂️
I suppose it could be, my only experience with T55 flour before purchased sight seen didn’t have any bran in it. It was lily white. But good to know that 00 flours have bran in them. Thanks Michael.
one would ever know that there was trouble above deck. The crumb looks mighty fine. And even the baguettes themselves look like they came out better than okay except for the fella that took the right turn at the end.
It's okay to beat ourselves up a little rather than be complacent. A bad bake, which this one definitely is not, is a world of difference than coming home empty pocketed after a poker game with a card sharp. Keep things in perspective.
And yes, a brown sealed bag of flour is like a box of chocolates...
Great Warriors are measured by the greatness of their foe. One of the many great lines from Jeremiah Johnson mountain man movie.
I have had that almost to long to roll shaping happen more than a ew times. I now pre shape to more of a tight little round ball! Oulala that last sentence gave me chills!
Yes now that I know what to expect with this flour, I too will pre-shape to a tighter boule and then hopefully shaping will be better next time. Will, I’ve had the too long to fit on the deck a couple of times now, you’d have to go back a couple of pages to see.
What I learned from over stretching then compressing into the Couche is, the dough can withstand a decent amount of abuse, and still turn out okay. As in respectable but not show quality.
Benny - I have run three samples to assure that it is repeatable, but I found that I see no benefit in terms of openness of crumb from a retard that lasts longer than it takes to get the dough to a target temperature of 40°F. Leaving it longer does not seem to add anything to the bread (except for the possibility that I am getting a little more acidity). But I have not run a TTA test on the final bread to measure how much acidity difference there is or see if it is just my imagination.
Have you tried that and have you observed any differences?
Doc, the cold retard went so long for convenience. Since I’m working I have to fit the baking around my schedule. What is a TTA test? I’m not familiar with that acronym, sorry. I may be that the higher acidity of the resulting dough from the long cold retard is contributing to the extensibility though, what do you think?
In terms of how it tastes, I haven’t noticed much of a difference in how sour the bread has tasted from the shorter vs. longer cold retard with these baguettes.
I was wondering if the bulk fermentation is going too long and that is why you are not getting the ears but still a nice open crumb. Abel uses an 8 to 12 hour bulk retard in his method. I think the ears have as much to do with fermentation more so than scoring technique.
I have another batch with a long cold retard that I will bake this afternoon. I've dropped the hydration and I'll pre-shape tighter and I guess we'll see. I've been trying to fit these bakes in during the work week so that is the reason for the long cold retard.
Alan - When do you start timing your BF? When flour hits water or when mixing is completed or when autolyse is finished or something else?
My M.O. is autolyse, final ingredient incorporation if called for, then mixing - almost always the French Folds on the workbench. And then the BF clock starts ticking once the dough is redeposited into the mixing bowl.
These days, and for the past 2-3 years or so, I include the levain into the autolyse thanks to Mr Hamelman's 125% hydration regimen. Just very recently - since watching the Martin Philip Isolation videos, I also include the salt. So it may not be the pure autolyse to the letter of the law. My take is the primary function is to begin the saturation of the raw flours and the release of the starches and their conversion to sugar before final mixing is initiated. If the levain goes along for the ride, I'm all on board.
Timings in my kitchen are quite skewed from, say, Mr. Forkish's, where "everyone" now knows that his BF times are way too long due to his cool kitchen environment. Mine is the opposite to most non-tropical region folks where my kitchen is almost always 78-80 even with the A/C on.
Ahh, last night I saw your post and didn't know the Q was directed at me due to the indent position. Now I know ;-)
BTW it seems like I may have struck gold by whisking the minuscule amount of NY into the water before anything else. It dissolves pretty darned rapidly meaning no under-hydrated flakes or flecks.
alan
Tried it today and it seems more effective than just grinding it up fine and mixing it into the dry flour. Thanks for sharing.
Also, I shaped as soon as the dough was cold, and this time with the NY in the mix, even though I was cutting off an 8" piece of dough, I had to double it over before finishing the pre-shape because it was so extensible. Then a 30 min rest and rolled it out to 20". No rebound at all (w/ 0.25% NY). Very nice to handle.
Alan - Two references of interest for autolyse:
Sugars in flour
Autolyse in a commercial bakery process
The other piece that I do not have a quantitative reference for yet is the sensitivity of native amylase enzymes to osmotic strength (salt concentration). Industrial enzymes have been developed that have much better salt tolerance than what we find in commercial flour but I don't know how much of a rate penalty you pay in conversion of starch to maltose when you add 2% salt to the mix. The fact that the industrial application of autolyse does not include the salt in the early phases of the enzymatic starch degradation is significant. And what Martin Philips says is that yeast is not affected by salt. That is not the same as saying that amylase enzymes are not affected by salt. In fact it may be that for small values of pre-fermented flour where the yeast numerical density is low at the outset, there is no real loss of performance because there is a small amount of available sugar in raw flour which may be sufficient to feed the yeast until the native amylase enzymes have had time to produce maltose even in the presence of the added salt. At higher PFF values, I suspect that this is not the case and sugar availability is a limiting factor in bulk fermentation for those formulas. But this is speculation on my part until I get some quantitative sensitivity numbers for the native amylase enzymes.
The other function of autolyse is to give the flour time to become fully hydrated and 20 minutes is adequate (for finely milled flour - which excludes home-milled and stone ground and many whole meal flours) if there is sufficient initial mixing to eliminate even microscopic zones of water deficiency.
Doc
The popular consensus concerning the speed at which the autolyse is mixed is slow. But according to the linked article, that was not originally so. Why is this so?
” The mixing of the flour and water only on fast speed on the spiral mixer. It is recommended
that the hydration of the flour is achieved as quickly as possible during this stage, hence
mixing on fast speed, and mixing is complete with the gluten is fully hydrated and a clear
dough is obtained. {"clear dough" seems to refer to a dough that clears the side of the
mixing bowl, i.e. pulls itself off the side.}”
In the absence of any analytical rationale or test results showing that slow mixing is better, faster mixing better fits the industrial timeline and capital equipment capabilties. The chemistry happens at nanosecond speeds, the physical process of hydration happens with minute-level time constants, and the biological process of amylase enzymes cleaving starch into maltose is in the 10's of minutes at reasonable temperatures (and generally warmer is better so a high intensity mix perhaps contributes).
Certainly hand mixing is slow relative to mechanical mixing, but the important factor is the complete wetting of the flour so that absorbtion of the water and hydration of the starch can happen quickly. It is for this reason that including the levain or poolish in the mix prior to autolyse is totally consistent with the objective of the autolyse process. When using commercial yeast, it is unncessary to include the yeast but it is not precluded. The caution that goes with including the yeast is that the hydration and temperature profile that the yeast sees as part of autolyse has to be considered when designing the production process and the controllability of a separate addition of a yeast slurry at the end of autolyse and prior to final mix may drive a commercial bakery to do it that way.
I read something similar on the pizza making forum. That the advantage of using a mixer was the initial rapid hydration of the flour and not so much the mechanical kneading.
The baguette in the photo below is one of four in a batch that was split in half. Two baguettes were baked as described in the image and two were put back into the retarder and the temperature set to average 44°F overnight (up from 38°F for the previous extended retard batch). Those will be baked tomorrow after about 18 hrs of additional cold time.
The interesting thing in this batch is the relatively tight crumb on the left end of the loaf and the open crumb in the rest of it.
The prior batch of four had one baguette that was only pre-shaped and not rolled out because it was already a little over-length, while the other three were folded in half and cinched for a preshape then rolled to 21" during final shaping. The one loaf that was not rolled had a tight crumb and the other three had reasonably open crumb.
For this batch all four were folded and cinched for preshape then rolled out to 21" for final shaping. This one (of the first two baked) had a big end and the rest of it was fairly cylindrical. After cutting it open it became clear what happened. The fat end has a more dense crumb.
There are two more that will be baked tomorrow and we will see if there is any visible difference between the short retard and the long retard as manifested in the openness of the crumb. In the recent past I have not seen any significant difference between the crumb of a loaf that was retarded to 40°F core temperature (~3 hrs) and a loaf that was retarded for 16 hrs. So I don't expect any difference this time either but this trial has two baguettes in each batch and no difference between them so while not statistically significant in a strict sense it is a strong test for consistency.
Really nice pair Doc. Looking forward the the final 2. Yeah, it is bit of a letdown when the crumb looks so darned good thought the length of the baton for a 67% hydration dough only to wind up being pinched in the middle or compressed at the end, as you're is here.
Curious how you feel about a 90dF post mix dough temp. I never temp my dough at any point but I doubt that it ever gets above ambient temperature in the kitchen, if that. But 90 seems higher than I've ever seen a dough get to. Was that the plan?
The shaping down the barrel is quite good and consistent with one little flare and the big end is really not easily noticeable except to the harshest critic - the baker himself! Good scoring and grigne. Is your flour already malted and the additional 1% the boost, or is it unmalted?
Overall, these two seem pretty successful from my side of the laptop screen.
For the past couple of weeks I have felt like I was throwing stones in the pond and watching them splash rather than really hitting anything. Collecting data so to speak with nothing to show for it. But listening carefully to those who have been baking nice baguettes and trying to analyse the common threads of success then validate them with my own experiments (I think of them as component tests) has helped me build a tool-kit and some design principles to follow. The technique part still needs work (scoring and shaping) but the foundation feels firm. Today was a batch that was really designed and only a couple of things changed: BF was shorter than I had planned because the dough was getting soft and puffy and I really wanted it to be relatively firm when it came time to shape so I went to retard 30 min ahead of the plan; then the post shaping counter proof was allotted 90 min and was very poofy after 60 so they went back into the cooler to get ready for the oven. Could they have gone longer? Probably. I am always more afraid of overproofing than underproofing. Because the dough temperature is so high I may take another 30 min off of BF next time and recover it in final proof, or what I really want to do is to find a retard temperature vs time chart that will give a more sour baguette without damaging the crumb and allow me to specify in advance when they will be ready to bake. I now know that if they get down to 40°F then I can hold them there almost indefinitely. Tonight I am playing with a +4°F higher retard temperature and will see in the AM if there is any significant difference. At some point I will get to the place where the yeast continues to make CO2 and it all goes into solution in the liquid phase of the dough then explodes in the oven when it comes out of solution - making for nice oven spring and tons of surface blisters. But that requires incremental testing rather than Monte Carlo.
The 90°F dough temperature is my starting point since everything comes out of the gate running hard. I have run a few experiments at 100°F and they work just fine from a microbiology perspective but the physical properties are not what I want them to be (the higher temperature should work even better with instant yeast, but I am sticking with levain until I get as good as I think I can). Even a 67% hydration dough behaves like it wants to be made into ciabatta. But the dough temperature quickly comes down into the high 80's even in my kitchen which like yours sits at around 78°F in the summer. I have run some tests in the winter at dough temperatures in the mid 60's but it takes a whole day to do what otherwise can be done in 5 hrs and I don't really see a significant difference.
Yes, the flour is malted and has ascorbic acid as well so I don't need to add any to counteract the nutritional yeast. And I do it to get adequate browning without requiring too much extra oven time. I would like to find a way to reduce the bottom crust browning, but that is graduate work and I don't want to change more than one thing at a time since we are trying to do science as well as art.
The fact that to get the very open crumb requires that the cell structure receive some significant manipulation during final shaping is a new concept for me. So I am trying to understand how rolling serves to collapse and consolidate alveoli. I need to sleep on it and roll it in my mind while watching the cell walls contact each other and see how they merge then figure out what defines the boundary of the successor cell. It seems most likely that the process is driven by surface tension but what allows it to be so uniform and what is the range of conditions that allows it to happen without totally collapsing the loaf (which it obvioiusly can if you make an error).
Then I want to step up the hydration a tick or two after I get this process to be predictably repeatable. And there are a few points on the flour protein scale to be investigated. The ~12% that I am currently using is higher than the ~11% that others are suggesting so I am compensating by under-mixing which in this case worked well.
Doc, how do you account for the tighter crumb n the bulbous end? You’d think that the less compacted (bulbous) area would have the most open crumb.
The crumb of a baguette is clocked in some mystery, at least for me.
I think that you have to compress the dough enough to disrupt the cell structure and cause some of them to collapse making larger cells in the process. If you don't manipulate it hard enough or the dough is too strong (perhaps because the cells are too small) then you don't get the cell consolidation and it looks like the crumb in the fat end. If you damage it enough to get it to partially collapse then you are left with an open crumb. If the dough is too flabby when you shape it, and work it too hard, it collapses completely and you have to start all over.
Put this in the category of speculation for now. What I know is that it has been repeatable with N=2 and I have not gone back into the image history file to look for previous occurences that were not recognized at the time.
I just love the prefabricated levain method I invented! (That's quite enough beating my own drum)
Todays bake will be a one day affair. For this bake the major change will be the changing out the 8% rye four for 8% Italian semolina. Other than that, the procedure will be mostly the same. That being said since it's a daytime bake, I will be able to keep a closer eye on the cold proof. No need to photograph each step. I will see you all at the slashing stage. Peace out, thanks for reading.
First impression. while mixing the dough I notcied that the 65% hydration mixture looked much drier, that the 8% rye dough. I slowly added in 30 ml (g) of additional water. bringing the total hydration to 68%.
Photo #2 After three hours o cold proof. I don't know why at 41.5F, the loafs are proofing so fast? In any event I am planning a 5PM bake.
Photo #2 (Three hours cold proof)
In the process of searching the Internet for information about French Baguettes (in this case with poolish), it became the obvious that many of the bakers that have participated in the Baguette Community Bake are, in actuality producing products that are in the very top percentile of even experience bakers.
Take a look at THESE IMAGES.
Our’s are really exceptional when compared to those throughout the world. And, we are still eager to improve...
but way more are on the horrific scale. Now I'm not making fun of them - because I'm really not. There's a lot of wiggle room between not so bad to okay and then to pretty decent. And that's okay, folks are free to show off their wares.
However, if someone is going to demo or instruct someone else how to do something, then they need to bring the guns and ammo with them. And there is where I don't respect a lot of what's posted on those pages.
It's so prevalent on some FB bread groups that I have stopped commenting and giving advice. I'm no expert but I have been a home baker for about 30 years and am very careful to make sure my advice is in accord with a recognised expert, eg. Jeffrey Hamelman. However, my comments are swamped by people who disagree and have other advice inconsistent with what I've experienced. While sometimes there is more than one way to "skin a cat", obvious bad advice overtakes the good and leads to confusion. Frustrating.
Cheers,
Gavin.
For this 10th set of baguettes I used Abel’s formula with these changes from previous. Used the T? flour again that definitely has a small amount of bran in it. No NY used, 1% diastatic malt dissolved in the water. Hydration dropped to 68%, Rubaud after salt added followed by 2 sets of coil folds until aliquot jar had risen 30%. Cold Retard for 25 hours to work around my work schedule.
Pre-shaping done in a tightish boule started with the pre-heat of the oven. Rested and shaped. With the lower hydration these had more elasticity. Shaping went much better, I think I have to stay with hydration in this area. Scoring using the lame around 45-60* from horizontal and using quick strokes. I tried to go for the pointy ended shape and was more of less successful. They are probably a bit too fat, I will work on my shaping and hopefully improve if I can keep the dough consistent with the same flour and hydration from bake to bake. Changing flours so often leaves me with too many changing variables and with my nascent skills it too hard to deal with.
Preheated the oven 525ºF Silvia towel in for preheating. Dropped temperature to 500ºF when baguettes side loaded x 13 mins. Then removed steam equipment and dropped temperature to 480ºF and baked until browned.
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Benny, some definite improvements! Like the pointed ends. I can see where you are working your way towards some sweet shaping. The crust looks thick. Is that the case? Nice ears, for sure.
I am learning more and more how very delicate french flour really is. 66% hydration and the dough is definitely too dry. But 68% and the dough is very, very wet. Even after 300 slap & folds the 68% remained very slack. It seems closer to Ciabatta than baguette dough. My conclusion, this french flour is super intolerant of variances in hydration. Have no experience with American pastry flour, but I can say for sure it is much weaker than KA AP by a lot!
So, if the 68% is in fact too wet, then 67% must be the sweet spot...
I’m just happy to have improved a bit this time from last. It is easy to get down about your baguettes skills with the level of difficulty. I had my ruler out and they were stretched out to 16”, but then they contracted in the couche while back in the fridge. Oh I didn’t mention that I left them on the counter in the warm kitchen for 15 mins after shaping before putting them into the fridge. I wanted to give them a chance to puff up a bit but then cool down for scoring. I think I wasn’t getting any tension on the skin the last few times especially when you over stretch and then squash them to fit. This time I felt that there was some tension in the skin. The skin took to the scoring better. I don’t have as much angle on the blade and I’m scoring more deeply. I wonder if that is making the crust look thicker or if in fact it is thicker. We’ll know at dinner time when I cut one open.
It looks like you are on the correct road as far as scoring goes and figured out the angle. Vast improvements on most everything. I like like the pointy tips, reminds me of the late 1950's Chevrolets front bumpers! https://www.classicdigest.com/cars/cadillac/eldorado/155906.
Perhaps a bit too thick a crust, but beautiful coloration and dark bake, just my style. What is the weight of these babies?
I hope the crust isn’t too thick, they might turn out to be and that would be a pity, another step back because I had been pretty steady with the thin crisp crusts.
I like the pointy ends, but I wasn’t actually going for only slightly elongated footballs which is what I achieved. I’ll get there eventually, but it is nice to see some ears now. It think the issue was lack of tension on the skin, angle of the lame and depth of scoring, at least that is what I’m thinking, I may not be correct.
Edit:
Sorry I didn’t answer Alan’s question about dough weight, they were about 285 g each.
I’ve done some thinking about crust thickness on baguettes. It seems the ‘French Style” baguettes have very thin and crispy crust, and I believe it to be a result of weak french flours. If we study the true french baguette, most images will show a crust that is thin, very light and crackly, but the ears are not nearly as prominent as our objective goals are. alan has spoiled us for large prominent ears. Both styles of baguettes are to be considered complete successes, IMO.
Geremy proved that nice ears are possible with french flour but they are not the norm. The image below was accomplished with all french flour (I think T65). That loaf is truly phenomenal! So, even though prominent ears are almost impossible with weaker french flours they are a possibility. Were it not for this image, I could rest with the better results of my present breads. But... if it can be done, and the image below shows that it can, I sure would like to produce it. That darn Geremy!!!
Geremy’s baguettes are incredible and something to strive for, but I won’t be too hard on myself if I never achieve it.
My baguettes didn’t have a thick crust, maybe slightly thicker but not much. Still far far thinner than any sourdough batard’s crust that I have ever baked.
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As you can see in the crumb there is bran, not a ton, but it is there. So this isn’t T55 or T65, maybe it is T75 as someone has surmised above.
Benny, the thin crust report is good news. The bridges between the scores are so nice and prominent. To what do you attribute that to?
What angle and how deep did you score?