This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Pioneers get the arrows and the settlers get the land.
Beautiful work Don! I will conquer the baguette eventually. I will keep trying, after another Einkorn sourdough batard though because I’ve recently found that Einkorn is delicious! Then back to baguettes.
Return and conquer them. Your getting great crumb consistently and the other part will happen with practice. I never experienced Einkorn but I here it is delicate stuff. Maybe you will show us how it rolls.
Don - I am interested in your observation that the yellowish pigmentation shows up now and then. I assume you are baking with unbleached flour. And that you are hand mixing. And that you did not add anything that would act as an oxidizer (additional ascorbic acid, or fava bean flour). Is that correct?
Doc
Other than whats in Wheat MT AP which I saw somewhere that it is slightly less protein than KAFAP. It's grown and milled just over the hill and it may have something to do with how fresh it is. My other theory is it comes from an autolyse a very short mix and no S&F therefore no oxidation.
Later in the day the yellow bleaches out to white but cut at the moment you can't wait any longer it has a slight yellow color.
Really great loaves. Btw the ends will always lift up. Most baguettes are curved - I wouldn't obsess of reducing the curve ;)
happening anymore. Thanks for the heads up;-)
Has seriously devolved ! So I will confess ... I did think about that particular ailment and wondered if I should tone it down. I guess it was only a matter of time. It had to be said ;)
I know the community bakes are about testing and perfecting technique, but let’s not forget why we learn these tricks in the first place...
5 baguettes pruned to ‘epi format. Waiting for the friends...
Phil
Very nice Phil. Funny thing last weekend I was thinking that I was going to make one of my baguettes into an epi and then I forgot today. Darn, one of these days. I got into the groove of scoring and it totally slipped my mind.
...epis come out beautifully every time. Can’t say that slashes are as predictable...for me anyway
Of the Gosselin and a perfect use for them. Where is the happy little tire swing?
...in the Sierra Nevada. Not far from Carson Pass.
Nice to see a couple of red wine glasses amongst the others, as the baguettes and cheese demand it.
Cheers,
Gavin
I’ve got the French Flour Blues. For Baguette excellence this French T65 flour will require some work to perfect on my part. But for me, it is well worth the effort. One bite into this ridiculously crunchy crust that is quickly followed up by the incredible softness of the creamy crumb is plenty enough to goad me on... This flour is special.
Baked Bouabsa again. Went with 70% hydration and 2% Fava Beans. I had hoped that the Fava Beans will give adequate strength for a beginner like me to handle it with more ease. I was wrong. The dough was removed from the fridge ~12 hours later to shape, couche, and retard again. Shaping the cold dough was difficult. The dough was entirely too extensible for my present skills. It stretched out way beyond the 22” length that my home oven will allow. So, I decided to cut 1/3 off the length and make a couple of Ficelles. Managed to salvage that. But the shaping was nuttin’ nice. NOW, let’s discuss scoring! Even with a super frigid dough the skins are extremely delicate. In the past with other flours a very low angle (filleting) score produced super results, but that was not to be the case with these babies. Next time the dough will be scored at ~45-60 degrees, a deeper angle. The more shallow angle caused the blade to skip across the surface of the dough on a couple of slashes.
But, I say again. The eating is absolutely exquisite!
Here’s a little lagniappe!
I know most of y’all are to experienced to use “training wheel”, but I need all the help I can get. :-)
The flipping board is laid on the side of the baguettes and used as a reference while scoring.
Danny
I too found that scoring my most recent baguettes made with what I believe is T55 flour was similar. The skin on the cold shaped dough (at the end of the cold retard not part way through) was very very delicate. I still think that the flap of dough fell back down on the scored dough and closed somewhat. I think with this delicate dough made from this flour that I need to make a less parallel to the surface of the dough score at least with the 72% hydration that I made last time. I will certainly lower the hydration and alter my scoring next time and see what difference that might make to the next set. I do have to agree with the flavour and texture comments though, the flavour is clean wheat, the crumb is soft and the crust thin and crisp just what I want from a baguette so it is worthwhile working on the T55 while I still have some left. I am running out and not sure if I can get more anytime soon so hopefully the next set of baguettes will work better.
I know you strive for perfection but to most of us these look pretty darn good and you are consistently putting out great products. There is something about baguettes that makes us all think we can do better. I wish I could taste these. Your neighbors are very lucky people. You should try doing it without retarding the shaped wands to see if scoring is different. Am I the only one scoring with a straight blade instead of a curved lame?
We may be on the same wave length. I just setup this formula in my spreadsheet earlier this morning for my next bake. The hydration was adjusted down to 66% from 76. If need be it can be adjusted up during the mix.
has created a telepathic link and we are all riding the same wave. I was thinking the retarded shaped method may have relaxed the skin too much even though it should be firmer from the chill. It will be interesting to see how it scores. I may try a SD/yeast Bouabsa for bake #6 because I have a lot of catching up to do and to keep this thing going so Kendalm can put down his markers.
Was going about to say they look like ficelles - then I read the post. And still you got great loaves. I should have told you that adding fava really necessary and also that you'd probably notice its gets weaker not stronger. Thing to do is just start lower hydration and work up. Interesting thing to me is that its throwing you for such a curve with the extensibility. Once you get comfortable with the extreme silky qualities I think you'll find that going back to shaping your usual flour is quite frustrating having to wrestle with the dough; I think I'll mix some up tonight and let you know where this lot sits with respect to the average extensibility. Maybe I'll bake some up tomorrow.
I've been keeping it to myself until I have more documentation, but have you considered a very heavy handling of ones of those loaves for a side-by-side comparison? Perhaps in a future bake?
I have been working with a 75% hydration 100% AP sourdough baguette trying for a very open crumb. I have manhandled heavily half the dough on preshape and shape. The crumb on those loaves was more open than the gently handled ones. The first experiment was inconclusive. The second was definitive. The additional handling added structure back to the dough and the loaves were easier to score, as well.
I've been trying hard to resist ordering some fancy flour in. Your pics and description mean that I think I've lost the war. Very very nice.
My best of the bunch last time was the one I stretched and letter folded long ways and then patted it out and it shaped with much better tension and it required force to elongate. It was the crumb in the photo in my last post. The videos of the pro's is always more forceful than what I normally use but I am going to try and replicate that next time.
Jen & Don, I am final proofing 3 now. Believe me, these were not babied. Must be the telepathic thing, because the shaping was completed before I read your post. Geremy told me not to baby the dough, much like what both of you are saying.
The hydration of the T65 was lowered to 66%. It is now much more easy to handle. The sweet spot for this flour is somewhere north of 66%, though. More experimentation necessary...
I've been holding this back for 3 more bakes today but it seems to relate at the moment. I'm working on a sourdough baguette with a very open crumb. As part of that, I've been looking at the handling on shape and preshape of the dough on a higher hydration dough.
Bake 1- A Heavy Handed Accident
This was back during the fava/NY run. I had some scraps that I kneaded together lightly and then formed a baguette. Baked to see what happened.
Bake 2- Intentional
75% hydration with some wheat/rye. One half of the dough was lightly stretched and gently rolled as preshape. Shape essentially was a light stretch of the dough- but it was so extensible it did it itself. The other half was pounded flat, folded over on itself, rolled tightly as preshape. Shape was pounded flat again, rolled tightly while compressing, lengthened by pressing on the dough.
There appears to be some negative effect on the crumb but would need to be repeated to be certain no other factors were involved.
Bake 3
75% Hydration, all all-purpose. Same handling procedure as bake 2. Appears to be a strong correlation between handling and crumb structure.
Between bakes 2 and 3, 2 had a less extensible dough and some negative effect with greater handling. Bake 3 was more extensible and had a definitive benefit from additional handling.
I have 3 more bakes that I plan to do today on 75% hydration dough and will be testing the handling again. I've dabbled a bit at 60% and 68% At this point, I theorize that as the extensibility increases, the amount of handling needed for an open crumb increases, as well.
I don't feel this is confirmed yet. I'll post when I have completed the other 3 bakes.
I'm very open to input and ideas on this line of thought.
Even though the results of your experiment seems to contradict common rationale, it is what it is. It is amazing to watch experienced bakers shape baguettes so agressively.
keep the results of your experimentation coming...
Thanks,
danny
Danny,
This is actually right along with conventional thinking, it just doesn't appear so on the surface. I included links to two videos. I had dismissed them because baguettes seem like their own world. I'm starting to think that it is all the same world just from a different angle. The rules exist but are applied differently.
The videos are lengthy but it shows the entire process.
Effects of Preshaping
Effects of Shaping
Tom Cucuzza of Sourdough Journey (from the videos) heavily references Open Crumb Mastery by Trevor Wilson. I assume the why's and how's are explained in that book. (And I need to stop baking long enough to read it.)
I'm thinking of it like constructing a building. If the building was made with proper support, adding more supports gets in the way and closes it off. If there was little support, adding it actually opens the space up. When we shape/pre-shape, we are essentially deciding what amount of structure is needed for the desired rise. At least...that's what I think today. Haha.
I merely applied a small portion of what was presented in the videos to baguettes and it held true.
Jen
Jen, although extremely long, the pre-shaping video was eye opening. The Sourdough Journey is worthy of a YouTube subscription, IMO. The length of the video served to document the process which is a good thing. It would have been nice if he would have included links in the comments that would enable the viewer to jump to various sections. Tip - to shorten the time use the speed settings to 2X, that way you can see the entire video in half the time.
The meat of the pre-shaping experiment starts HERE.
The results of this experiment is not what any baker would think. It is worth the time to view.
Thanks for posting...
The gist of his experiment with shaping starts HERE.
This guy’s work is very informative. I’m going to invite him to join our forum. We need all the experimental bakers we can get.
Danny
related to yeast versus sourdough. Yeasted bread seems to require and rebound from a more assertive handling than sourdough at least that has been what I have found to be the case but I never really degassed a sourdough loaf intentionally. Maybe I missed it but the guy in the video was talking about crumb but never mentioned volume which seemed to be greater with more shaping.
Was there any noticeable difference in the crust or did both have the same bite. The level of proof looks spot on with the glisten to the crumb.
These were the same dough and so the crust was identical. In each case, they were baked side-by-side.
That is an interesting conjecture. But designing an experiment around it seems prone to error. However you know what you did so you can repeat it. The question is can you do a video or at least some intra-process imagery so we can imagine the dynamics? Then we can look at the crumb pics for confirmation.
Doc,
Effects of Preshaping- Tom Cucuzza
Effects of Final Shaping- Tom Cucuzza
Your point is right on- and why I've been hesitant to share because of it. There are a lot of variables. In this case, I applied the ideas presented in the videos to baguettes directly and they held true. I try a lot of things to give myself an idea of a direction. I need to start planning with an idea of how to present it to others.
Jen
Never have I ever baked so many breads for any other CB before. The challenges of this bread coupled with the progressive success drives me forward. This bake used Hamelman’s Baguette de Tradition, which calls for no retardation. It started around 10AM and came out of the oven mid-afternoon. The hydration was reduced to 66% which was a little low, but french flour is a learning experience for Americans. The flavor was not as good (but still excellent) as the Bouabsa, but the crunch and texture was even better, if you can believe that. Prior to this week, I was thoroughly convinced that bread with this type of bite and chew was completely impossible with a home oven. Thrilled to find out I was dead wrong. Still have lots of work ahead before this flour is dialed in. But the journey will produce lots of great eating...
OH! The higher angle slashing made scoring a good deal easier, although the low hydration should have also affected that. The dough was scored after proofing an hour at room temp.
Love the middle picture. Glad you found the eating pleasure so enjoyable. It's a nice change of pace from the whole grain flavor. I still make an Approachable Loaf every week to have as toast in the morning but for just eating bread alone the white flour baguettes are in a league of their own. What makes them fun to make is the precision and focus required to execute them well.
I finally got around to the BBGA baguettes and will be rolling them up this morning.
Don, you are the perfect candidate for T65 French! I don’t think it is possible to use American flour to bake a loaf with the characteristics of fine french flour.
Geremy sent me an image of his perfect loaf using T65. This takes special skills. He earned his ranking into the “Special Forces” with that one! Miracles are possible. I have a visual goal to pursue.
I am wondering if using all or some portion of American pastry flour might not get us in the ball park.
Looking forward to the BBGA bake. I assume they are the Team USA baguettes.
Wow that looks like baguette perfection to me.
I have a set of baguettes almost done bulk fermentation, still using Abel’s formula with a hybrid of sourdough levain and a tiny % of IDY. Unfortunately I have run out of T55 flour so only about ⅓ of it will be that flour the rest of it will be AP. I was amazed that after 100 slap and fold, 50 mins of time and one coil fold I was able to pull a good windowpane. Our Canadian AP must be pretty high in protein.
The dough will cold retard en bulk until tomorrow morning before work I’ll then pre-shape, shape and bake.
I don't know if they were bred for that, but perhaps so. And the climate perhaps plays a role as well. I understand that European flours tend to run on the other end of the spectrum, but I have no clue why, maybe that is what will grow there.
I just looked up the protein on my AP flour and it is a staggering 13.3%. I may need to buy Canadian pastry flour to try to get a lower protein content closer to 10%.
At these levels I don’t need bread flour, I should just have the AP for my bread and buy pastry/cake flour for other baked good and maybe a blend of the pastry flour with some AP for baguettes.
at some point. In a perfect world we would have ready access to it. I haven't even seen KAF AP in the stores again. I would like to hear more from KD on what makes this particular flour the one to use. I would hate to get hooked on the good stuff and then not be satisfied with anything else.
The Costco near me, for some inexplicable but good reason, suddenly started stocking KA AP in 25 lb. bags. For the first time ever. About US $13. We know that what they stock can be regional and you are on the opposite side of the Great Divide from me. You may wish to check and see whether they are carrying it near you.
I was dumbstruck when I noticed it a month ago and picked up a bag. If it weren't for me already having stockpiled about 150 or more lbs. of various flours recently, I would have grabbed a second bag. Next time there I likely will.
A few problems, but no missteps. The formula is as easy as it gets and I've baked it probably 15 times in the past after I had first figured it out way back. So let's look at the balance sheet.
I was considering dividing and shaping the dough before retard but very quickly abandoned that because there was no way it would be compliant in any way. Into the retarder it went.
I pulled the dough about halfway through retard for shaping before I went to sleep last night. The dough felt typical Bouabsa good in my hands, the pre-shaping was a dream and for the most part rolled out okay - at about 21 inches long. However, and I can't recall this from before, the dough exhibited elasticity and sprung back on the couche to 19 inches where it remained though the bake.
The dough was slightly sticky to final shape, and the shaping was better than last bake but still needs cleanup. Still getting accustomed to rolling out these longer thinner batons.
Pulled from retard about 45 minutes before bake, which is not my standard M.O., and they released from the couche fairly easily. But the top was sticky and adhered to the hand peel, and had to be gently eased off it. I lightly floured the tops of the other two and they released from the hand peel easily.
Scoring was also a surprisingly sticky affair, but with swifter scores became less problematic. Maybe I just forgot what this dough feels like, or I'm unused to scoring dough that had final bench top proof. No problem loading or baking - 480dF - 13 minutes with steam, 10 minutes after rotating and 3 minutes of venting.
I love the dark color and incredible snap of the crust, but it was thicker than anticipated. The scores are disappointing, inconsistent, and tell me that there's more learning (as if learning ever ends) to do on these longer batons than I'm used to.
Crumb is creamy colored and fairly open and delicate and has that classic sweet Bouabsa flavor.
I'm wondering whether the darker vs. thicker crust is a tradeoff. I'm not disappointed in the bake as a whole, but I had hoped for a better experience and not all that happy with the scoring.
The Brooklyn, now Los Angeles, Dodgers had a saying at the end of losing seasons - "wait till next year". Well I won't wait that long before my next bake. That's for sure.
I was halfway though a baguette when I remembered to slice one open for the crumb shot. These are addictive little puppies!
325gx3 baguettes
Alan, the crumb looks great. Also, the signature color is exceptional.
Did you go the full 75% hydration?
What type of flour did you use?
You wrote, “ I'm wondering whether the darker vs. thicker crust is a tradeoff.” Are you saying that the darker the color, the thicker the crust? There seems to be a correlation.
with bassinage. The mix and BF all went smoothly, as usual.
I suppose that the thinnest crust is with the least coloration, the darker and the oven het bakes through to a further depth. So while I love the color, it may well have contributed to the thicker crust. But that snap and crunch! That made it worth it!
thanks, alan
Eveything looks great. Our signatures are written in the score. You should have close up photo of those batons made into a belt to wear around. I love the pattern.
a COVIDiot-proof mask with this pattern...
But I'll need to carry a butter knife around with me in case I run into a pat.
My wife is making and selling fish themed masks so maybe a bread head is next. I still like the idea of a snakeskin belt from a single. Maybe slice the top off and treat it with something to keep the dogs from following you.
Can somebody explain to me the rationale for picking a retard time longer than what it takes for the dough to stabilize at the target temperature? Other than for scheduling the oven.
Doc, I hope we can resolve this question. As you know, most bakers believe that retarding commercially yeasted dough will increase the flavor. Your assertion that it is not so surprises me. I am intent on getting to the bottom of this one.
I sent an email to Lesaffre Yeast (makers of SAF Red) requesting the answer to that question. A phone call may be necessary.j
Called Lesaffre Yeast Company and spoke with Martin. He told me that CY will continue to ferment at 37F and above, although it will be slowed down. Flavor will be enhanced over time during both warm and cold conditions.
If I remember what Andrew at King Arthur Flour told me to check out Bob’s Red Mill site. The information was thorough and very informative.
*** begin Bob’s Red Mill ***
Rough Temperature Recommendations
The guide below will give you a rough idea of ideal water temperatures for proving your yeast.
Of course, these tentative estimations can be higher or lower depending on the type of yeast you are using, and whether it is active dry yeast, live yeast, or rapid rise yeast. The bottom line is that yeast thrives in warm water, sleep in cold water, and die in hot water. So, like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it’s important to get the temperatures “just right” for your yeast to thrive and your bread to obtain the best rise and flavors possible.
*** end Bob’s Red Mill ***
For more information concerning Commercial Yeast see THIS LINK.
I believe that he uses a minuscule enough amount of IDY (or perhaps fresh yeast in his bakery) to figure out what the maturation of the dough would be to match his bakery's scheduling requirements. I've been in his lab and there isn't a lot of room in there for leverage. In this case, he likely made a decision as to how best to fit in what he has to in order to meet the mixing/retarding and baking demands. He may have decided to bulk ferment as it takes up less space than having speed racks filled with shaped dough in his retarder.
As I recall, this is his one mixer (that I saw).
of one of his baguettes that you took before it disappeared.
Coil folding in a bowl. I assume the bowl turns a little at the same time. The gentlest kneading machine of them all is what I understand. Somebody needs to make a home version of that thing besides the one attached to my shoulders.
I see his baguette cracks at the shackles too. A man after my own heart.
The starches being broken down into sugar (flavor) and the yeast has something to eat when they wake up. That's how Reinhart explains the Gosselin technique.
I have been wanting to try this recipe posted way back in the beginning on page one detailed here USA baguettes I upped the hydration to 70 to allow for local dry conditions. I scaled them to 290 grams per to keep the same ratio in a 17 or 18 inch 45cm length. I have decided that is a better length for my stone and oven. In trout fishing catching a 20 incher is the line to cross to be considered a trophy. I caught one and liked it but the shorter length just suits me better.
The dough handled fairly well but I am still struggling with the Goldilocks just right amount of tension in the pre-shape. I decide to load these sans parchment and slithered them off the peel one at a time and it took too long to straighten and arrange them. I think the delay caused them not to be steamed quite right. I see a home made super peel in my future.
I keep trying to score more down the center to create that nice pattern but my batons seem to break their shackles and burst out of their shirt like The Hulk when he gets angry. I still like the eggshell thin crust though.
Overall it's a nice recipe and you get a lot of strength immediately from the 40% poolish but that had almost dissipated by shaping time. I added 25 gr of stiff starter to the mix but hard to say what the effect was. The flavor was good, I was happy with the crumb but the crust was a little stronger yet still had a nice crunch.
I enjoyed trying different recipes in this CB but I will probably go back to where I started with the Bouabsa as my preferred baguette recipe.
Don, what is your perfect amount of rise for the Bouabsa BF?
I’ve been doing 30%, but wondering if more might be better.
20% tops but a few small bubbles on top and signs of the yeast being active. I think what happens after they are divided is more important. You want to see some movement again before shaping. I am thinking divide, rest for a bit, pre-shape. Then decide when to shape and how long the proof needs to be.
Don, since your crumb is consistently great, it would be nice if you photo-documented your entire bake. I think others (now and in the future) would benefit and I know I would. Give us the blow by blow so we can duplicate your process and formula exactly.
as written by the author. The only difference using the BBGA USA was that I hand mixed and upped the hydration to slightly above 70%. I follow almost exactly the recipe for the Bouabsa baggies down to the 21 hour retard more or less. I have probably made them a hundred times in the past mostly during my pre sourdough days. The main difference in my approach from what others are doing is the short mix with no slap and folds or significant gluten development and I am using more water to get an open crumb which changes the handling characteristics. I suppose it would be easier to reduce the hydration and work with a more forgivable dough but that only makes the process slightly easier at the risk of a tighter crumb. It is rare for me to have smooth sailing and a dough that isn't difficult to shape in someway and it was so frustrating in the beginning and even now it is. I think that is why most people give up on the idea after a few attempts. Us knuckleheads persevere! My timing of the steps is based on the room temps and fermenting progress on that given day. I don't see my crumb as that much different from what you and others are posting. The main difference I see is in the scoring. For some reason my crust seems tear rather than constrain the oven spring so maybe that is how I get the holes. I was frankly surprised that the crumb was so open the last time with the BBGA USA and I generally don't have a clue as to how it will be until I slice it.
I will try to remember to photograph the stages next time. I am putting the finishing touches on my scrap plywood extra wide super peel that I hope is going to be a game changer for this side loader.
You mentioned that you don’t develop the gluten much. I haven’t been either for the latest sets of bakes. The fact that you don’t highly develop the gluten may be a key to your successfully thin crust, beautiful crumb, and at the same time your dissapointing ears. I have consistently noticed that the gluten “skin” of your loaves appear thin. I think mine is super thin because of the french flour and lack of gluten development. I bet yours is because of your gluten development.
If your scores weren’t opening well, the crumb should be tighter.
I wonder if we need to score thin skinned dough with more of an downward angle. I’ve watched Alan’s bouabsa video and also Martin Philip’s scoring in slo-mo and they are definitely not using a shallow angle on the videos I observed. The thought is - a 45 degree or greater score will leave more dough on the ear side of the dough. And a thick ear may be needed on a thin skin.
What do you think?
I think you’re on to something Dan, I agree with you, but I’ll have to test it out next time I bake baguettes. I didn’t change my angle of scoring this time and kept the same formula for the dough except the change in flour. So again I kept a pretty shallow (almost filleting) score and again I didn’t get much in the way of ears. Now the only time I did get reasonable ears when was second bake of sourdough only baguettes I posted ages ago. They have a thicker skin and scoring them similarly resulted in some ears.
I will have to make sure I score maybe 45-60* next time and keep the same formula except increase the hydration and see how they turn out. I really like the thin crust so don’t want to go back to the sourdough only formulas that have thicker crusts.
been getting on my bread. My wife says the ones on my head are useless. I think my crust looks much thinner than other bakers and the ears are thin like a potato chip. The bloom seems to split at the narrow crust between scores and looks less defined because of that. It might be from a higher hydration or a less strong gluten but I wouldn't want to trade thin crust for robust ears. I use a straight razor and not the curved blade so that may have something to do with it. As a general rule stiffer doughs are scored deeper than softer ones. I would say my angle is about 30 degrees from vertical. After all these bakes and different recipes my style seem set in stone as is most everyone else's.
The crumb you are always able to achieve is so beautiful Don.
It's nice when a plan comes together. Some of my cuts sealed without an ear but that doesn't seem to affect the crumb. I think scaling the weight of the pieces to suit the length desired is something that helped me and that you should consider. 330 for the full length 20 plus incher (55 cm) and adjusted from there to keep in ratio to the length.
I have trouble getting a nice open ear if I don't pay close attention to three things: loaf perimeter growth during oven spring and how fast it increases (influenced by oven temp, convection setting, amount of steam), dough tensile strength (how much tension is required to break it, and dough elasticity (strain at rupture).
If the loaf is too small, it doesn't expand enough to break.
If it is too strong it won't break at all.
If it is too elastic it will stretch without breaking.
The challenge with baguettes (for me) is that at 330g and 20" long it is too small. Over development of the gluten makes it too strong. Proofing too long makes it too elastic (or at least that is my current theory).
So it makes sense to uses a little weaker flour (10-10.5% protein), don't mix too long or fold too many times (stop when you can pull a smooth window pane), and shape very close to oven time or shape and immediately retard then bake directly from the retarder.
Thus I am interested in what should determine retard duration.
At some point as far as flavor and gluten development and the dough just aging out at and becoming more ciabatta like and not capable of holding much of a shape. I am talking about bulk fermentation here and not as shaped sticks. I only see myself doing that and not putting the shaped loaves away for hours. I think the BBGA recipe with the high percentage poolish has a pretty narrow window for optimum results.
If I side load my baguettes tomorrow the max length will be 14 inches, I’ve allotted about 280-290 g per baguette. Maybe I need to make them smaller to achieve slimmer baguettes.
Benny
Benny, maybe consider Ficelles or like Alan, the long batards. He posted this informative image earlier.
Yes I think mine will end up as long batards given the constraints of my set up and the amount of dough I’m retarding.
It will be I guess. Then mine would be called a fat ficelle or gros ficelle by definition. Are you limited by oven size or baking stone length?
Baking steel isn’t long enough to bake baguettes of great length. That being said, the set I have in the oven now I could have made longer than they are. These are definitely more long batard than baguettes. Next time I will use training wheels and use some sort of guide to ensure that I maximize the length for my steel.
This is the first Bouabsa attempt that I'm willing to show. The real first time I read the directions too quickly and did 3 sets of 300 SF and couldn't figure why everyone said it was so easy. There was cursing involved. And the crumb was ummm...best forgotten.
So this time...100 Slap and Folds. Fold and stretched every 20 minutes for an hour, 20 times in container. Retard for 36 hours. Preshape and 45 minute rest, shape and additional rise of 1 hour for 1 loaf, the rest 90+ minutes in the fridge. I don't trust baking more than one at a time right now.
Overall, I'm not unhappy with this. I'm using Morbread so the crumb might be better with KAAP but I'm going through 25ish lbs of flour a week and morbread is a good price point. Next run with KAAP or 00. I've been resisting breaking into it.
My first real ears on a baguette and it was on the last one when I scored faster and lighter. Also I recently realized my lame wasn't bent enough...such a silly little thing but what a big difference right away. The crust is thin and the crumb is light. And they coloured nicely. Nice flavor...but my heart is in getting to the same consistency with sourdough.
Beautiful crumb, your best yet. 36 hours is a long retard but it seems to work well. We are going to change the name of this CB to OCBD which stands of Obsessive Compulsive Baguette Disorder for all of us who can't stop trying to make a better baguette. Getting the same results with SD will be a tall order. You may want to change your moniker to Sisyphus Pants. Rolling a baguette up a hill.
I would admit that 36 hours was just a life thing...got away from me.
I'm beginning to think that Alan and Danny are secretly running a Bates motel for baguette bakers...one you check in, you can never check out.
aren't hiding away and collaborating together? The two of you have been producing such extraordinary crumb on the past few bakes each. This doesn't happen by accident, and even if you aren't quite sure of what it is that you do, keep doing it.
300x3 sets of French Folds! Well, I guess you didn't have to hit the gym that day! However, I bet you are more adept at it now than before.
Really outstanding work and the pieces have quickly fallen in line for you. And you've probably baked about 10-15 times more bread than I have these past three weeks!
Great progress indeed!
I will say it is rather eerie that every question I'm about to ask Benny puts out about an hour later. Quite handy. Thanks Benny!
And many thanks to you. It feels like a smidge of a cheat to go to a higher hydration and all AP flour because it is an entirely different creature. But the allure was too hard to resist.
If we were the Paul Hollywood Baking Show, and the constraints were specific, then going outside the lines is cheating. Anything else is "within the rules". The entire idea of the CB was to try and encourage the baguette-timid crowd as well as some seasoned hands to at least try the dang thang. And we attracted a few who came and went, nothing wrong with that, as they participated. And then there are the folks like you and Benny who we can't seem to get rid of.
The idea was to interest folks in baguettes, not "my" baguettes, so it really doesn't matter what kind. And the more the merrier because it only enriches the overall experience for both the diehards as well as the gawkers and the one-and-done crowd.
Janet Leigh, Jamie Leigh Curtis' mother, said that she couldn't take a shower for years without wigging out. Quick backstory - Hitchcock got wind of the soon-to-be published book Psycho, and sent a "nobody" ( to hide Hitchcock's identity) to offer to buy the rights to the book, which he did for something like $9,000. The author could then publish it, but only after the movie was in circulation for some period of time.
My idea of cheating for myself is more like this...I'm given recipe A. And I really like recipe A but I want a more open crumb. Well sure I can go to proven recipe B that creates an open crumb with a completely different list of ingredients. But my goal is to learn to manipulate the ingredients in recipe A into what I want it to be. Using recipe B doesn't really help me achieve that goal. I'm getting the result without the work.
That said, if I know what the expected result is on recipe B then making it correctly shows me where I'm at in technique overall.
And well...my people need a break from recipe A for a moment.
My pleasure Jen, you must be practicing mind control LOL.
I say go for it and go higher hydration all AP flour, that will be my next set of baguettes, but also hybrid again with both levain and IDY.
Jen, I still can’t believe that you’re a relatively new baker, you’re making the rest of us look bad. There is no way I would have been putting out the quality of baguettes that you are now a year ago myself. So impressive. Really great crumb.
I agree with you, the fast quick scores are definitely the most effective, all except the one in which I gave my left baby finger a good deep gash with this morning.
Again using Abel’s formula, 9% pre-fermented flour of which only 1.1% of the total dough was whole red fife. ⅓ of the flour was T55 (no more left now) and ⅔ was my 13.3% protein all purpose Canadian. IDY was used 0.07% and the hydration was 72% again. Now that I know that my all purpose is really high protein I might increase the hydration next time to 75%.
I fermentolysed the levain, flour, water, yeast and diastatic malt which I increased to 1% in the hopes of getting a better browning of the crust. Salt was added along with some water and mixed thoroughly with 100 slap and folds. The bulk fermentation took under 3 hours at 79ºF and I did two sets of coil folds. The dough was cold retarded en bulk for 21 hours because of scheduling issues. It was divided and pre-shaped into loose rolls, rested 10 mins then shaped into long batards. Here is where I could/should have rolled out longer than I did since once on the steel I noticed that I could have stretched them another 2-3 inches longer since I side loaded them this time. Baked with Silvia towel and cast iron skillet for 13 mins at 500ºF then removed steaming gear turned the oven to 480ºF convection hoping that I would get better browning. Baked a further total 12 mins oven on turning a few times and finally moved off the baking steel onto rack and left for a further 2 mins with the oven off and door ajar.
I’m really loving the flavour and texture, both of the thin crisp crust and soft crumb with good chew, of this formula. The crumb looks good to me, but I have work to do on getting a more extensible dough that is less elastic. These baguettes shortened from their initial length while in the couche a short time.
Because my all purpose is such high gluten, I‘ll try to increase the hydration to 75% and use far fewer slap and folds to build less gluten. I still need to adjust my scoring I think to get better ears, I did have a couple of ears on these but nothing to write home about.
I’m not sure why the browning of the crust is so uneven, could it be the spritzing of the dough I do after loading them in the oven?
Benny, the “Crumb Master”!
Killer crumb , Benny. You and MTLoaf are onto something.
I can see another phone call is in order...
Also in the same league is Jen, who gets another gold star for open crumb . Your baggies's crust also looks wonderful. Now just figuring out how to get the ear to do a "lift and take-off".
It wouldn't matter how long you've been baking these, the results make it look like you've been doing this forever.
This CB sure keeps you on your toes, if you want to run with the big dogs.
...and that’s a great thing!
CIP - Continual Improvement Process
First off...smashing crumb! It looks so lovely. That you are able to create the texture with such a high protein flour is remarkable.
As far as the uneven bake, I'm running into the same problem but primarily on the all white flour doughs. Is that a trick of the eye because the color difference of the dough itself? Or a mistake in handling?
Jen, I don’t know about others, but most often I consider the oven for problems with uneven browning. I have seen large air bubbles at the surface that darken prematurely. But most often I’m thinking oven heat.
Are younrotating your loaves at some point during the bake?
I'm baking in a two part oven. I complete the bake in the upper oven with a rotation. I think the problem is the oven- very temperamental in positioning. I can't even bake two baguettes at the same time and expect even browning.
I may shorten the loaves and stop side-loading. Try a rotation front to back.
I think it is very interesting that Benny is running into the same issue at this time, too. Ovens are the chaos factor, it seems.
This time I side loaded, last few times I end loaded. I’m not seeing that much of a difference with the browning for my oven, it isn’t even either way. After the steaming component of the bake I actually rotate them quite a few times, I may have to drop the temperature farther and bake longer to get more even coloring.
One thing I have to thank Doc for is his idea of using crumpled aluminum foil to prevent over baking of the bottom crust. My solution which I used this time is that I stuffed the broiling rack with crumpled aluminum and then placed my baking steel (only 3 mm thickness of carbon steel) on top of the broiling rack. I’ve only had burning one time, but up until this bake, I found that they bottoms were more baked than I would prefer. This time with the addition of the crumpled aluminum in the broiling rack there was no over baking of the bottom crust.
So another issue with my set up figured out. I think I like the top steaming set up and now the baking steel with broiling rack stuffed with aluminum foil.
Benny, How does putting crumpled foil on the broiling rack that is located above the bread help the bottoms from burning?
I may not have explained myself well. But the broiling rack, stuffed with crumpled aluminum is under the baking steel so it is buffering the baking steel from the direct heat of the bottom elements. It has surprisingly made a difference to the
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baking steel on the broiling rack without the aluminum.
Thanks everyone for the comments on the crumb. Other than a dense area as seen in the photo above along the wall of the cut baguette, I’m quite pleased with the crumb. I do wonder if I’m putting the baguettes in the couche with too much pressure between them compressing the crumb along the side walls, could that be the cause.
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Compression requires forces from two sides (plus top and bottom) so if it did crush the crumb structure you should find it in both loaves that were in contact (and you don't).
I haven’t cut another baguette yet, I’ve frozen them to reheat tomorrow with dinner. I’ll post a photo of either of the other two once they’re cut if they show any of that compression as well. It was a long shot, but I was trying to figure out why it would have that compressed area.
Was it on the outside of the dough ball before it was divided and wound up on the outside of a loaf? I am thinking about where there might be dough that is a little under-fermented - a cold spot, a spot that got special mistreatment at some point, a spot that got dry or ripped when you divided or rubbed instead of rolled during shaping. It wouldn't take much to produce a small "bruise" in the process.
The only other thing that happened, but of course I cannot recall if it was to that exact baguette was after pre-shaping. I had the three dough rolls sitting a bit to close together, so with relaxation of the dough warming up, two became a bit stuck together then I used the bench scraper to cut them to separate them. However, in doing so I missed the natural line between them and took a sliver of one with it. So that sliver was compressed down to the countertop and added to the other dough. Maybe that is the compressed bit on that baguette?
I think you have found the culprit!
Now I’m not sure. By the way, these baguettes freeze whole super well and crisp up almost to a freshly baked state, we just had a rebaked one with dinner and it was almost as good as yesterday.
Now, here is the crumb showing compression on both sides, this may have been the baguette in the middle of the three perhaps getting compressed from either side. Tomorrow I will cut another to have with dinner and it will be interesting to see if it has this artifact and defect as well.
If that is the culprit for a minor defect then the fix should be easy the next time to give them more room. I would say scale them down and make them thinner might help in the same way.
I have another batch using the same formula except all AP 13.3% protein flour with 0.25% nutritional yeast added in cold retard now. I didn't do any slap and folds, only used Rubaud after bassinage to add the salt. Increased hydration slightly to 73%. I also only did one coil fold because I got a decent window pane after that coil fold.
I will attempt to get a slimmer profile baguette this time and give each a bit more room in the couche tomorrow.