This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
But I do feel that the overly ginger Letter Folds yielded a dough that had more image of growth that It might otherwise have had. So, yes, maybe shoot for 30-35% BF.
I'm now down to 40 FFs (from 300!). At least with a dough this malleable and hydrated.
I can’t believe how much you’ve cut back on your French Folds. So comparing your results now with fewer FF vs your earlier results with much more FF, what would you say is the difference if any between fewer or more FFs?
I can only guess that there is less of a well-mixed dough going into BF and the gluten develops during the BF.
Looking back, I had made a similar run at the Bouabsa's at the end of August.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64622/community-bake-baguettes-alfanso?page=5#comment-467902
I'm not sure that I can truly ID differences yet, although I'll stick with a more robust FF mix for doughs that are fairly drier.
Wow remarkable crumb, so open and airy, very very nice Alan.
except for the ciabatta types of bread, but as long as that is the flavor of the day, I might as well work at getting that under my belt too. Now going to get another slice under my belt...
Well you certainly got the open crumb whether you were trying or not with these Bouabsas.
By jove! I do believe you have got it. Nice looking crumb your holiness. Tell Benny to step aside;-) I recognize the stringy, webby grigne as a good sign of whats inside. That's some explosive bloom on those babies! On one of these pages I think I posted the method I have been using and it is pretty much as you stated minus the cold retard in the couche and no slap in folds. I went through a period of a tight crumb a few years ago from the joy of slapping and folding too much. I still do it for sourdough but less and less. The short mix is the way to go for this recipe. If it is too elastic you should shorten the RT bulk or maybe develop less gluten. I have also found too much tension in the pre-shape will also inhibit elongation.
Scoring @RT is a challenge and can lead to a jagged ear but I think it makes for a thinner crust. Did you proof seam up? I never liked the powdered donut look but a little flour on the couche does help with scoring room temp batons. Mine always deflate after scoring but they do bounce back.
I suppose a little Nutella would be off the diet menu.
“ Mine always deflate after scoring but they do bounce back.”
That statement paints an excellent picture. That really helps...
Can you paint another picture describing your shaped dough at the end of the Final Proof and just before scoring?
I jumped on the Bouabsa wagon and it is BF now. Mixed it at 71.23% hydration. Will try a retarded BF and plan to score warm.
When I take it out of the fridge I divide it and pre-shape and rest them seam up. After 15 or 20 minutes I shape them and proof them for 40 minutes seam up. They do respond to the poke test and grow slightly while proofing. I can see grey bubbles inside the dough is the cue I look for but they always end up in the oven in just under an hour after removing from the fridge. Mine are still round before I score them but flatten out as they are loaded. I bake them at 480 for 24 minutes with steam pan on the top rack for 10 minutes. I would recommend you forgo the 550 this one time and see what happens.
If they are real elastic you can force them because they are very resilient for me YRMV I can't wait to see them but I will be fishing tomorrow. So I will look in when I get home.
Don, take a look at this. The opinion of others are also welcomed.
I decided to blindly follow your method of a stretch and fold after the dough (Bouabsa) retarded for an hour. Here is what the dough looked like after 1 hr in bulk retard and just before a light stretch and fold was performed.
Am I on the right track? You can see the indentation where the Aliquot Jar is placed. The dough, according to the aliquot had risen slightly since refrigerating.
By the way, I copied your instructions above about handling of the dough once the bulk retard is complete. I plan to try that tomorrow. Thanks...
Is all you need to know that the yeast is already active. I have been doing a fold after it has been in the fridge for an hour. It helps to tuck it in for bed it adds some strength and avoids the big gas bubble in the morning.
I know from the first score line and even before, when I touch the dough with my hand while bringing the blade down, whether I'll have trouble or not.
No, still the wayward prodigal son and couching seam side down. I'm not too certain that I could have pre-shaped these with any more TLFC and gentle touch, so that will remain a bit of a head scratcher for the immediate future. I'd rather not resort to adding Nutritional Yeast if I can avoid it, but this mix's elasticity surely would have prospered from it.
Thanks for the moral support! alan
When they have gone too far along in the bulk is when they are strong and elastic. I have had to shape them very aggressively at times and over elongate them to allow for the snap back, they seem to come out of it just fine. I pat down and shape gently but I roll them out with some force. The topside down in the couche will dry the skin out for easier scoring.
The moral of the story is: If it was easy anyone could do it and if I can do it anyone can.
Alan, do you think it would benefit to skip the pre-shape and go directly to shaping in an effort to have a more extensible dough?
you could get away with it. Might well be worth a try.
Next time through, I'll abide by the shorter BF, and longer pre-shape barrel. And couche, upside down, dang it!
It makes sense that couching seam side up would help with scoring. If part of the purpose is to dry the skin and have a skin form, the having the couche contact the area of the dough that will be scored it logical. Maybe this is the reason many couche seam side up.
I couche with the seam up, but I don’t like the way the dough doesn’t sit flat on the peel once it is inverted. The seam side is curved instead of being flat. Not a big deal, though.
Reduced hydration to 66%, 12% PFF, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 35 min rest, 4 x 425g baguettes
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch weight
12.0% 100% 66.0% 2.0% 1738
248 levain from (28 + 114 + 114) 553 H2O + (6g in 5 liter Cambro) 900g HGW + 10g DM + 1.0g IDY 20.7g salt
Process:
Combine the 900g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.0g IDY and 553g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight. (Yielded 1455g net autolysed dough)
In the AM add the 248g levain to the autolysed flour/water and mix for 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during this interval at speed 0.
Temperature vs mixing time:
57.3° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
60.7° @2 min on speed 4
64.4° @4 min on speed 4
67.8° @6 min on speed 4
71.9° @8 min on speed 4
Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark
Ferment to ~120% of original volume ( water level rises to the 48 ml mark on aliquot jar)(~2:00 from start of mixing)[don’t wait for the water to reach 48ml, be ready for it and divide dough as soon as it gets there)
Divide into 4 parts (8 x 425g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest covered for 35min, final shape (7 min).
Counter proof for 0:45
Aliquot jar = 60ml
Retard 2:00 @50°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
425g at pre-shape; 335g when cooled. 8-9" in circumfrence, 21" long on the pan and 19" long when cool
Analysis:
This is my new baseline formulation for baguettes made with levain and high gluten flour.
The flour and water were combined at 60% hydration and cold autolysed for 10 hrs. Then in the morning the levain and the cold autolysed dough were combined, salt added, followed by gluten development at 66% hydration. This might be reversed with gluten development occurring at 60% followed by mixing in the levain and then the salt. The dough was easy to handle and needed no additional folding during bulk fermentation.
When they started to expand in the oven, I wondered if I was going to have a few loaves that all looked like a fat snake that had swallowed a family of rats (there was a bulge for every slash along the length of the loaf) but after they had fully baked, most of the irregularity had evened itself out and they are pretty straight.
Dividing and pre-shaping were straight forward without any sense that the dough was over fermented. These rolled out a little short of the desired 21", but the pre-shaped dough pieces were a little longer than I usually make them, so I will try to make them about another inch longer to begin with and see how that works out.
Some wrinkles when slashing, but nice texture and not over-proofed. I continue to want to make slashes that migrate from one side of the loaf to the other but keep forgetting after I pick up the lame. You can see the way the slashes cause the loaf to twist during baking - the objective would be to position the slashes to prevent, compensate for, or undo that twist.
Great color, nice crumb, excellent flavor.
Is it possible the first slash was started before the very end of the loaf? The un-scored dough at the very tip could cause the loaf to pull downward (in this case). Then each consecutive slash would pull less and less unti the last slash (right side) is the most relaxed.
The rotation is caused by the local displacement of the surface as each slash opens and the dough expands perpendicular to the slash. The total rotation is the sum of the individual contributions. I will try making adjustments and observe what happens.
Again Doc beautiful crumb, you have things dialed in just perfectly now.
Design:
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch size
12.0% 100% 66.0% 2.0% 1738
248 levain from (28 + 114 + 114) 553 H2O + (6g in 5 liter Cambro) 900g HGW + 10g DM + 1.0g IDY 20.7g salt
Make 248g levain (100%)
Process:
Combine the 900g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.0g IDY and 553g warm (115°F) water and mix for 8 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth (91.5°F) and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight. (Yielded 1455g net autolysed dough)
In the AM add the 252g levain on top of the (40°F) autolysed dough and mix for 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporated the salt during this period of mixing. Dough temperature was a little warmer than yesterday, perhaps because of the 115°F water that I used for wetting the flour last night. The dough rose about 5/8” overnight in the bowl and was 40°F when removed from the refrigerator instead of 38° as it has been previously.
Temperature vs mixing time:
57.5° after 5 min @speed 0 (which was not much different from yesterday)
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.2° @2 min on speed 4
64.5° @4 min on speed 4
67.9° @6 min on speed 4
72.2° @8 min on speed 4
(1.83°/min) This batch mixed quite a bit faster than yesterday for reasons I do not fully understand (faster temperature increase and less total mix time). Up to the beginning of the speed 4 mixing, the only difference was one extra minute of mixing prior to the autolyse and the very warm (115°F) water used to wet the flour. That may have been enough to get the gluten development off to a rapid start so that the dough developed some strength overnight during the cool down and long autolyse. In any event, during the last 2 minutes of mixing, the temperature increase was significantly greater than during the earlier 2-min increments and that was the interval during which the dough smoothed out and at the end of which I was able to pull a very nice window pane.
Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark
Ferment to <120% of original volume (~47 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:15 from start of mixing). The dough was divided a little earlier than yesterday and handled nicely. It was pre-shaped by rolling into puffy long cylinders and sealing them and rolling them in some flour to keep them from sticking to the Silpat. After the 30 min rest, final shapig ad rolling to length was easy with very good extensibility and no post-shaping snap-back.
The dough was divided into 4 parts by cutting off strips from the long dimension of the BF container (8 x 425g) and pre-shaping into long cylinders (5 min), rest 30min, final shape (6 min).
Counter proof for 0:45
Aliquot jar = 60ml at end of proof.
Retrospectively, they should have probably proofed for another 15 - 30 minutes since they were shaped a little early. The proofed dough was still somewhat supple and not soft or flabby. Since I was going to retard at 50°F I thought that in cooling somewhat more slowly, they might proof a little more but that was not obvious when they were pulled from the retarder to go to the oven.
Retard 1:30 @50°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Next time rotate BF container 90° when turning out the dough onto the silicone mat so that the strips that are cut wind up being shorter
Dough was easy to handle and probably should have bench proofed a while longer. It was very easy to both pre-shape and shape so that the dough was handled very gently. I wonder if this negatively impacts the final crumb character.
Two of the loaves (top two in the photo) were scored such that the cuts progressed from the middle of the top of the baguette around the loaf in a counter-clockwise direction which did tend to compensate for the tendency of the loaf to twist as the slashes opened. The top loaf was scored slowly, about 2 minutes prior to oven entry, was scored straight down, and both the starting and ending points of each successive score advanced to the left as I worked down the baguette. The second from the top had a similar placement for the scores but the slashes were intentionally made deeper and the scores slightly longer. The last two were done hurriedly and it shows.
The overproofing is solved I’d say now, yet the crumb still looks great, maybe just a touch less open but not significantly so. It is very remarkable how evenly open the crumb is everywhere on your sliced baguette though, very very nice.
Running low on T65, so KA AP flour was used to mix a Bouabsa. For me 75% and AP flour seems awfully slack. So I mixed all ingredients at once using 65% hydration. After a brief mix the dough was rested 20 min. While waiting I weighed 10% hydration of water in a bowl. After the rest the dough was mixed using Rubaud and the mixing hand was lightly dipped in the bowl of water to up the hydration and also stop the dough from sticking to my hands. This process continued for about 5 minutes until the dough felt right to me. The remaining water in the bowl was weighed and i5 was determined that the final hydration of the dough was 71.23%.
2 sets of coil folds were performed every 30 minutes. An Aliquot jar was used and the Room temp BF was complete once it rose 30%. The dough was placed in the fridge @ 38F. After an hour of refrigeration, the dough was lightly folded one more time. Total retardation was 22 hr.
Don’s following instructions were closely followed.
” When I take it out of the fridge I divide it and pre-shape and rest them seam up. After 15 or 20 minutes I shape them and proof them for 40 minutes seam up. They do respond to the poke test and grow slightly while proofing. I can see grey bubbles inside the dough is the cue I look for but they always end up in the oven in just under an hour after removing from the fridge. Mine are still round before I score them but flatten out as they are loaded. I bake them at 480 for 24 minutes with steam pan on the top rack for 10 minutes. I would recommend you forgo the 550 this one time and see what happens.
If they are real elastic you can force them because they are very resilient for me.”
The only steam used was Sylvia’s Steam Towels. They were baked at 480F for 20 min total time. The only deviation from the instructions above is I forgot to shape one of the pre-shaped doughs (shown below on the bottom loaf) and this was negatively affected the final produce.
The texture and chew was super, but the flavor (KAAP) was basically bland. T65 has a way of making a “flour snob” out of a baguette Connoisseur.
I learned something... The actual colors of the bread are very close and accurate when shot against a white background. Both the color of the crust and crumb are extremely representative of the bread. Not so much with other backgrounds.
For best viewing of video below use THIS LINK
The ears are a project for another day. I am confident this can be dialed in. I am very pleased with the bite and chew. The flavor should be easily rectified with the French T65.
Thanks for your help, Don. This bake has been a leap in my learning process.
The holes and the glossy shine look great and the fermentation was spot on. It really is an easy recipe to get nice results. I should add that I do a short mix and rest for 10 minutes and mix again ala Trevor Wilson. How was the shaping and scoring? Your oven has too much top heat. When is the Rofco being delivered?:-) I'd say with your success this time you could dip into the T65 for next time but be prepared for nirvana.
Don, shaping was moderately difficult. Nothing any of us couldn’t do, because we’ve all gained a lot of experience through this CB. The dough was slack and slightly sticky. The roll out to length (~21”) was a breeze. No pull back or shrinkage.
Because the mixing was light the crumb was a yellowish/amber. Not sure why this crumb was so glossy. I’ve over mixed before and produced a tougher, bright white and tasteless crumb. I am certain that more intense mixing will allow more water and ears.
Where this dough differed from others was the size and amount of air pockets during shaping. It was evident that open crumb was soon to manifest. Even though the dough was airy, shaping went well.
I am presently pondering the explanation and reason for the open crumb. At this time I have no answer, butbwe know it works, whatever “it” is. Maybe RT final proof?
As for the over head heat. Next bake I’ll try to remember to place an aluminum foil shield on a top shelf under the heating element to deflect the radiation from the upper element. This has worked well in the past.
The glossy crumb comes from the long ferment. It looks like the hydration was enough to open up the crumb and still allow for easy shaping and handling. I am not certain that more intensive mixing will make for more pronounced ears but it would lead to a tighter crumb. I would look towards a shorter proof or more tension in the shaping for more ears. If your dough is not expanding in the fridge, the last fold of the cooling dough may not be necessary. I forgot to mention that I shoot for a 74 degree dough temperature when mixing. What was the weight of the divided dough? Mine end up around 290 grams per baton when I start with 500 grams of flour.
A sheet pan on the top rack for steaming should shield them from the top heat. I Can't wait to see how the T65 works for you with this recipe.
Don, “ The glossy crumb comes from the long ferment.” I’ve done countless long ferments that failed to produced shiny crumb. Do you always get shiny crumb from your Bouabsa?
” intensive mixing will make for more pronounced ears but it would lead to a tighter crumb.” A couple of weeks ago, I was definitely in your camp. BUT, Doc blew that conception out of the window. Look at his crumb! I know what a spiral mixer does to dough and he is highly developing the gluten.
” A sheet pan on the top rack for steaming should shield them from the top heat.” I can place a full size sheet pan on the second highest rack and place a couple of towels soaked in very hot water for steam. Or a Steam Curtain could also be setup there.
The dough shows no sign of rise in the fridge. Please check the temp of a glass of water, located where the bread dough is placed, that was left in your fridge for 6 hours.
For this batch I chose to mimic Doc. Each dough was ~400g and 21” long.
I estimate the DT during the RT BF @ ~76F.
This is a very long conversation to follow but I wish to chime in on two points. Glossy crumb and shrink back.
I'm forming ideas on glossy crumb (i'm not sure if you see it as an advantage of not) but I think there are 3 things at play here. Firstly the strength of the flour. Higher gluten content will result in a more glossy crumb. This will be exasperated by the next two points which are the autolyse and long ferment time. If you wish to avoid the glossy crumb but use very strong flour and an extended ferment time then drop the autolyse. Or use a less strong flour, minimal autolyse and aim for less ferment time. Or some combination of these ideas.
Second point is shrinkage. Are you talking about pre or post bake of the baguettes? If it's post bake then don't take the baguettes out of the oven once baked. Crack the oven door open and leave to cool slowly. This will help prevent the baked baguettes from shrinking.
Do you see much additional volume growth during 22 hrs of retard at 38°F? You note that you did fold lightly once, I am wondering if that was driven by a desire to build some more strength or keep it from getting too big.
Doc, neither the actual dough or the Aliquot jar showed any rise during the retard.
The only reason I folded the cold dough was blind faith in Don’s instructions. Actually, I hated doing it :-)
But, I will fold again. The results were too promising not too.
Beautiful crumb Dan, I think this is the type of crumb you have been working towards. I think the Bouasba is an awesome formula and it really works to give a wonderful crumb doesn’t it? You must be so happy.
right on the stick after we texted. Good shaping, opened scores, and nice open crumb. Ears on the grigne are another skill on this bread to be learned still.
But two things perplex me. How was it that you had complete extensibility when Don and I find the dough to be elastic? My curiosity at executing some simple changes mentioned elsewhere recently, led me to another mix yesterday, and when I shaped this morning it was again fairly elastic.
As Bouabsa was my first successful baguette I've baked it enough times, though intermittently, and never found the crust to be anything but extremely crisp and crunchy. Yet your version squeezes like Wonder bread. I know you like the softer crust, but I didn't think that it was possible with this formula.
Alan, the question about extensibilty. I don’t know. I used KAAP @ 71.23% hydration.
Could it be that all ingredients were lightly mixed by hand at 65% and rested 20 min. Then a bowl filled with 10% of the flour weight in water was added in tiny amounts with slightly wet hands to gradually increase hydration and prevent dough from sticking to my hands?
The resulting relaxed gluten may account for the extensibility and also the inability of the straps to stretch and not break.
The dough was slack and easily extended during the pre-shape and shape. When moving the shaped dough to the couche I had to be careful to not stretch it longer. There was no shrink back that I remember.
Tip - for those that don't know, handling wet dough with latex gloves prevents a lot of sticking problems. Any stuck dough comes off the glove(s) easily. I wash mine and reuse them a few times. I got the idea from one of Alan’s YouTube videos.
This was a bit of a disaster, ok maybe that is a bit dramatic, but because of a really boneheaded mistake of mine, it didn’t turn out as well as it might have. What would be a critical thing to miss doing related to the start of baking your baguettes? Steaming, no I remembered that and it was all set up, boiling water poured into the cast iron skillet. Let’s see I loaded the baguettes and they’re in there on the hot baking steel steam doing its thing. Maybe 1.5 minutes into steaming, OMG I didn’t score the baguettes!!!!! Have you ever wondered what baguettes would look like it you forgot to score them, then took them out, scored them as they were just starting to rise? Now the dough is warm instead of cold after having had them in the fridge for 60 minutes to firm up to score. Opening the oven of course lets the built up steam out. OK I’m sure I was reading your minds and did this just to educate you about this so you wouldn’t make this mistake ever.
I don’t think even the magic of Alan’s copyrighted camera angles can save these.
I won’t go into what I did with fermentation and the aliquot jar.
I forgot to give credit to David Snyder for his formula.
They still look pretty good!
OK Dan you’re right they’re not all that bad, the crumb somehow turned out quite well despite my boneheaded move that did compromise the oven spring as they are flatter than normal. These had 6% whole red fife and 5% whole rye.
The crumb is excellent per usual for you no matter the recipe. Well done! In the spirit of DMSnyder they should be called Toronto Sourdough Baguettes. How was the flavor and texture with the whole grain and SD only. What was the hydration? Forgetting to score is a lame excuse;-}
The flavour is fine, they aren’t my favourite flavour wise, the sesame semolina are hard to beat for that now. The texture well, the crust is somewhat thicker than other baguettes I’ve made, I wonder if that is because these spent a bit longer in the couche than others. I guess I’m not as scared of scoring a room temperature baguette now considering I’ve just scored albeit poorly very very warm baguettes. Because I don’t have a good excuse all I have is this lame one. Thanks Don.
How do you do it benny ???
Apparently you need to load unscored dough into the steamed oven then pull them after 1.5-2 minutes releasing the steam and dropping the temperature of your oven. Score the rising dough deflating them and then load them back in the oven. LOL
Perhaps it is related to my not manipulating the dough much during bulk and giving the dough a good pat down before shaping? I’m also still not where I’d like to be with shaping so in the end they don’t get a proper rolling, this probably leaves the cells round. I really don’t know Geremy.
More impressive actually was the dazzling array of local bakery sourced breads on offer at the City Market/Onion River Coop, a grocery up in Burlington. On the order of ten area bakehouses supply bread for their shelves, most of which look stunning. The winner for our dollars was Red Hen's 100% ww SD. The best 100% whole wheat hearth bread we've ever had. Cakey soft open crumb under a sturdy crust. Superb adorned with local cultured VT butter.
Happy Fall, bakers,
Tom
When you proof the baguettes in the couche is it seam side up or seam side down?
Not sure who you were asking Abe, but since I’m on the site right now I’ll answer first. I proof seam side up. I like to be able to see the seam so I know for sure where it is so I can ensure it ends of on the bottom when baking. And if the idea of the couche is partly to slightly dry out the skin which helps create the ear then it makes sense to have that side in full contact with the couche to me.
Benny
Appreciate your answer Benny. Your way makes sense to me. While watching a few videos on baguette baking often they seem (oops pun there) to proof seam side down, then flip over onto a board (so seam side up) then flip it back over to seam side down. However there is benefit from flipping the dough over, to bake, after proofing. Helps with he crumb etc. So it makes sense to me to proof seam side up then bake seam side down. You must flip it twice then?
No I flip only once from the couche to the transfer board. I give the proofed baguettes a gentle hop off the board seam side down to seam side down to the parchment lined peel in my case a cookie sheet.
So proof seam side up, flip over onto the seam then hop/slide onto the stone. I think this is the better way rather than proofing and baking seam side down.
Thanks Benny.
I find that the top (side without the seam) is more uniform when proofed in contact with the couche. I use a pair of double-weight corrugated cardboard peels to make the transfer. One peel is used to roll the baguette over on the couche so that it is seam down, then I roll it again to put it on the other peel (seam up), then roll it over again onto the pan (Rational Teflon-coated perforated 1/2-sheet) with the seam down again. Then they get painted with water using a 1" nylon-bristle paint brush, topped with kosher salt (averaging ~1.1g/baguette), then slashed (usually when the oven signals that it has reached the target temperature/humidity).
I think proofing and baking this way makes sense. Flipping a dough to bake would make a better crumb. This is why I was asking after seeing videos where they proof and bake seam side down.
Thanks for confirming this Doc Dough. Right now I can't bake baguettes due to my set-up but i'm prepping for when I can.
For lo those many centuries that I've been baking baguettes, I never couched seam side up more than 4-5 times. Most recently the past week - once. Outside of the inevitable occasional dud, I doubt there are many who would say that I can't get a good grigne with regularity. The couche is also covering, and in contact with the "anti-seam" side.
And I find it infinitely easier to flip the dough onto the hand peel from the couche, and then onto the oven peel. My few videos out there demonstrate that - and the subsequent grigne.
Swimming against the tide here...
Well that is certainly a very good argument for the other side. You proof seam side down and still produce baguettes that I envy (in a good envy way)!
The reason why I ask is because it makes sense to me (and apparently flipping a dough on its head after proofing is considered important when making ciabatta for this reason) when it comes to the crumb. The dough has been resting with weight and gravity producing a closer crumb at the bottom and a more open crumb in top and flipping the dough helps even it out. So I just thought the same would apply to all doughs. However there is the theory and there is the practice with results to show and your results say otherwise.
I don't understand the theory that suggests that ciabatta will have a more evenly distributed porosity if inverted at oven entry.
Of course bubbles don't move but flipping ensures larger bubbles aren't on top and allows for a more even expansion. When proofing the larger bubbles tend to be more on top because of less resistance. Hasn't got the weight of the dough to push up. This will encourage larger bubbles on top and smaller bubbles at the bottom of the dough. Flipping allows the smaller bubbles to expand more during oven spring for a more even crumb. Well that's the theory anyway.
I guess flipping also acts like a pat on the dough so some of the smaller bubbles might coalesce into larger ones and some of the larger ones could split into smaller ones thus evening out the crumb again like patting down the dough during shaping. I’ve been thinking that the relatively aggressive patting down of the dough during shaping, taking the preshaped dough stretching it out and patting it down is doing this as well but more aggressively.
Sounds very plausible. I've also noticed if there are any irregular large bubbles making an appearance during proofing then on course it happens on top. Flipping kind of evens everything out.
I follow the Cyril Hitz method, sometimes combined with the Scott MeGee method of ciabatta handling.
When the dough is gently inverted onto the well floured workbench from the BF tub, the first step is to double the dough over onto itself. This traps the "facing up" side of the dough in the center. After divide, when following my now preferred MeGee method, I gently roll the dough into a cylinder for proofing.
Hitz: https://youtu.be/LFja1ShZFsA?t=454
MeGee: https://youtu.be/xxr4oedBRIE?t=287
It works for me: www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62077/scott-megees-ciabatta-sans-olive-oil
For the life of me I'll never understand how Mr. MeGee gets such a compliant and cohesive dough, as evidenced earlier in the video.With no shaping whatsoever. I like this idea (I wonder why). Just turning the dough out onto the worktop and gently coaxing it into a rectangle then using the scraper cut it up into smaller rectangles. Then flip, load and bake. I'm wondering if a baguette can work this way but in a very large rectangle and rounding off the edges. Might be effective but wouldn't be scorable I imagine.
Thanks for the other idea Alan and the videos for a visual.
Gosselin Baguettes are done essentially as you suggest Abe. I haven’t made these, but I think I it was Don who directed me to that formula before this CB started.
This has definitely sparked my interest!
Thanks Benny.
of the Gosselin baguettes. It has some mighty oven spring... http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30650/sourdough-baguettes-my-version-gosselins-baguettes-tradition
Looks more rustic but nonetheless a nice result with a good crumb. So no shaping and no final proof. It's getting better!
This bake taught me a few things.
To what do I attribute the new found open crumb?
Aliquot Jar - accurate termination of BF
Bulk Retard as opposed to shaped and couched dough that is retarded.
NOTE - I can see and feel the air bubbles in the dough where they weren’t as obvious before
Once again this bake was mixed by hand. All ingredients were mixed @68% hydration until the flour was wet and left to rest 20 min. The extra 7% of hydration water was put into a bowl. The water was used to wet my hands and very slowly increase the hydration until the dough felt right. A deviation from past bakes was the “ frissage”. It is a french method of kneading dough. One hand holds the back of the down against the counter while the dominant hand pushes the dough forward and away against the counter. (An article claimed that this method was used to eliminate any dry flour lumps that remained after the fermentolyse.) there were no large lumps, but I tried the technique anyway. The frissage allowed the dough to progressively absorb the added water. I kept this up, adding water as the dough took it until all of the water (75% hydration) was absorbed. The dough was not moderately slack, but not extremely so. Next, because of the slack dough Slap & Folds were performed. Didn’t count them (~80-120) but continued until the dough “came together” and showed signs of strength. Set aside in a bowl to BF, with 30g in Aliquot jar. Once relaxed the dough was coil folded 4 times at about 20 min intervals. The last CF had the dough strengthened. The BF @ 73F got away from me (you’ve got to watch closely towards the end, as things really speed up) and the jar showed a 34% increase in height. Bulk retarded the dough @ 38F for 23 hr. Divided rested 15min, preshaped in to light balls rested 25min, and shaped rather aggressively to build hoop strength. 4 total folds during the shape. Proofed in couche (seam side up) for 30min. I think they were a little overproofed but the sprang very well in the oven.
Baked these differently. Pre-heat to 475F, moved stone lose to top. Pre-heated a cast iron pan with about a half inch of crushed lava rocks in the bottom. Took an opened tin can and put a small hole in the bottom that would allow 1 cup of water to drain out in ~5 min. The can with water was placed on top the hot cast iron pan and set on the floor of the oven. The loaves were also spritzed with spray water. The effects of the spray will be shown below.
The side of the bread that rec’d the sprayed water was shiny. The back side that didn’t receive any water was dull. I plan to pull out the shelf holding the stone so the water can be spritzed from directly above so as to wet all exposed sides of the baguette.
After closely following your method, my baguettes are resembling yours. Have you solved the broken strap issue yet if so, what is the fix?
I think the weaker flour and higher hydration has a tendency to bake up super thin and delicate crust. Because of this, the straps to break during the expansion of the large oven spring.
What say you?
Are a feature not a bug. It means your getting a thin crust and good oven spring anyway. I find that if I do shorter scores they hold together better. I see 4 on yours and I have been using 6 or 7 with some sucess. I have a batch of T65 in the fridge to bake in the morning so we shall see. Your getting a nicer crumb now with proper hydration and it will open up even more if you stop slapping and flogging it around. Go easy on the delicate french flower. I was thinking of other ways to enjoy the the T65 and although it borders on blasphemy, I imagine it would make a mean biscuits and gravy.
Rather than spritzing with water Dan why don’t you quickly brush water on, it will be much more even a coating?
I have been “painting” water on my loaves for the last few bakes. No noticeable difference.
Sometimes things don't go swimmingly and the little errors start to cause defects that keeps the bake from optimal results. My wife says I am too critical of my efforts and she is probably right. I married Miss Right and I found out later her first name is Always. This batch is another T65 at 73% again. I didn't do the last fold after it had been in the fridge and this morning the rise was too much with a big gas bubble in the top. It was not a strong dough but very sticky and I should have put more tension in the pre-shape. The shaping was not pleasurable and the steaming experiment with the wet towel on a sheet pan with boiling water added did not generate the initial blast of steam I get from having no towel. The oven spring was underwhelming and the crust was a little dull. The beauty of the T65 Auguste is the flavor and texture will not be denied and the overall results were better than anticipated.
I like the results better with the curved bladed lame and the straps were not obliterated by oven spring.
The crumb was not my best work and the flavor and texture were not as good as other bakes but still enjoyable.
Someday, everything is gonna be smooth like a rhapsody,
When I paint my masterpiece. B Dylan
They look much better than you give credit for. Really nice long even shaping.
You are always so kind. I had high hopes going in of putting it all together but baguettes can be a cruel mistress. This CB has helped me focus more on shaping since appearance has becomes the criteria for success but flavor still rules at home.
Yeah, I still haven’t been able to get everything right on a bake. My shaping still isn’t really good. I don’t feel like I’ve made much progress in that respect. However, you are 100% right Don, flavour and I would add texture really are most important.
a bad baguette even with your hands tied behind your back! Maybe not up to your own personal standard, but there's world of baguette bakers out there that would kill to be able to get a bake like this one. Personally, I might maim, but wouldn't actually kill for this bake.
Accidentally, yesterday Danni referred to my baguettes as braguettes! I think that we stragglers on this CB can all adopt that term for our own work!
And when the bake going into the oven isn't what you expected coming out, it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Thanks Alan. "Braguettes" thats priceless. Is it just us or is it the baguette that causes us to have fits of OCD. Open crumb does not lead to an open mind.
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a bleeding
Just out of the oven and not quite ready to slice. Some more info here -
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65940/au-canada
Looks like baguettes straight out of an oven in a French bakery. Looking forward not a crumb shot.
A makeshift couche using a towel lined with parchment paper. Towel underneath and parchment paper on top. Proof the baguette seam side up (you can use books or the like to keep the sides from collapsing) then when ready flatten out the couche, roll the baguette by tipping the side of the parchment paper and transfer to the oven. No boards, no handling of the dough after shaping... just pick up the parchment paper and onto the tray or pizza stone.
Getting frustrated with the longer Bouabsa form, I tried to incorporate some Don changes. Ultimately found a hybrid method to use which i think will work with more practice and changes going forward.
The shaggiest of masses for the yeasted Autolyse - 20 min. Bassinage with salted water - incorporate, rest 5 min. covered, 20 French Folds, rest 5 min covered, 20 FFs. Into container for 60 min BF with soft letter folds at 20,40,60 min. Retard. Divide ~15 hrs later, I returned to a more aggressive but still soft pre-shape. 20 min rest, shape, couche seam side down. Bake at 480dF.
In order to get a more extensible dough, I added 0.25% or 1.5g of NY along with the IDY just after water hit the mixing bowl. The dough was neither more nor less extensible and in fact ran the gamut of lengths - from 16-19 inches, as two of the three receded in length, creating a Mutt & Jeff look post-shaping. Dang.
Scoring showed some improvement, but still lacking consistency. The NY administered a loss of the crisp sweet flavor of the bread even at this small dosage. A most serious downside. The one bright spot is that the crumb is starting to catch up a little to the others around these parts.
Next go-round the NY will be gone and I'll drop the 75% hydration a few clicks. It's hard to fathom that 0.25% of NY would effect the flavor so much, and still yield no perceivable help on extensibility. A solution may be to create a longer preshape.
350g x 3 baguettes
In think you're trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing. Looks great to me.
Btw what's NY?
Nutritional Yeast = NY. You probably know that it is high in glutathione and increases the extensibility of the dough.
Thanks Benny. The only things I use are the the flours and trying to get the best out them. I don't add in anything other than for flavour.
My inconsistent shaping is magnified on the longer batons. To all that remain steadfast on this CB, we are never as close to "perfection" as we wish to be. Continuous improvement is a worthy goal.
Really nice crumb Alan, two thumbs up.
have started to come around with the more open Benito Crumb. Some tweaks here and there, and then seeking while geeking, tweaking the tweak, so to speak.
Whether I can maintain that consistency remains to be seen.
alan
I found that changing from an 8" cylinder to an 11" cylinder as the pre-shape made a lot of difference in how easily it rolled out to 21". Also started by cutting 9" long strips of dough off the BF mass - that eliminated some of the minor manipulations required to get things to pre-shape the way I wanted. And I rest a full 30-35 minutes before final shaping. But I am not using your delicate French T65 and I am not running the hydration up to 70+% either.
I've been beseeched by the cognoscenti on this CB to take the plunge and invest in the "wonderdust", as Don so elegantly put it. And always resisted. Partly because I'm a recalcitrant, partly because I have something like 200 lbs. of various flours bursting out of every nook in our apartment here. And in fairness, although not really being fair to myself, I can't quite pull the trigger on forking over that much for flour.
OTOH, I mentioned to my wife, related to Don's by name ;-) , that I just passed 70 years of toil on this earth last week, and perhaps she could spring for a bag as a BD present. I'm not sure whether she already forgot, so I'll give her a gentle nudge with my cattle prod later today.
I'm with you Doc on the length of the pre-shape. Although I like the Abel pre-shape method, I find that I can get more tension in it and may go back to my old way, which I did for this bake. I'll make the effort to extend the length of the baton at that point, as well as take your suggestion of a longer rest between pre-shape and final shape.
Happy Belated Birthday Alan. You’ll need to text her a reminder of your birthday wish.
Alan, what flour did you use? Surprising that 75% hydration and lightly worked dough would be elastic and not extensible. And NY on top of it all!
what is your new found “hybrid” method?
Don's contribution; minimal mixing, gentler BF folds, tighter pre-shape.
I forever "over mixed" the initial pre-autolyse components. For these past few bakes, stopping at gingerly ensuring that the flour will hydrate and nothing more. The true "shaggy mass" approach. So far I like the change.
Then the severe cutting back on French Folds and letting the BF develop the gluten structure.
With an extensible dough like this during the BF folds, I historically would look to get a maximum stretch, rather than now being kinder to the dough. But I stuck with my 3 Letter Fold, 60 min. BF before retard.
And returned to couching seam side down, having seen no evidence of an advantage otherwise. The downside to me was the additional manipulation of the couched dough between linen and baking peel. My couche is long enough that it complete encircles the dough and remains in contact with the full circumference of the batons.
The lack of extensibility was really surprising, considering the addition of the NY. However, even if this trend continues, the NY at even this minuscule level imparts an off-taste stealing away the magnificent clean flavor of the Bouabsa bread. And likely won't see further action in future bakes.
Your signature is on the top side. I am somewhat surprised they look so much like your other batons. Amazing blisters on the crust. Would the hybrid method involve a cold proof like your other bakes? Seam down says old habits are tough to break. Is it our ovens that is producing a different look to everyones attempt at the same recipe? Everyones crumbs looks nearly the same but the outside is another matter entirely.
I have found that keeping the dough temp near 74 has helped me with extensibility as Abel stated in his recipe. Just say no to the nutritional yeast
unique exterior to our bakes. I think that it was Mr. Hamelman who said that he could ID the bread's baker by the scoring alone.
I explained the hybrid style to Dan above, but kept to my old cold proofing tricks - pulling the dough out a few hours before the bake to divide and shape it and then back to retard. I pull the dough out only about 15 minutes prior to loading onto the oven peel.
After a few bakes, if the pattern holds and I continue employing these similar steps, the hybridization of my methodology will cease and it will become biznez as usual.
We should never be too good as to deny that there might be a better way.
"Just say no to the nutritional yeast" - wasn't that a Nancy Reagan slogan?
The intruduction of 50% Canadian T55 reuslted in a less extensible dough but the Canadian loaf burst much better. Go figure ! Could have been just shaping of the Canadian loaf. Regarding your shaping on the long loaves. I am not sure if you are still rocking these longies but if you rolling, one thing I learned was that it's much easier to avoid kinks (which I think I'm seeing on your longies) is to spread your fingers and roll while avoiding your palms. ie, stop rolling when the loaf his the area under your knuckles. Also, I try to push downwards only and let the loaf extend itself as opposed to forcing outwards. I find that if you use your palms and force both down and outwards you will almost always kink the loaf and that translates to funky final shapes. As with slinging pizzas, its hard to get a good pie if you never focused on perfect round pie. So in keeping with that mantra and yours btw (the amplification rule), gotsta go for a perfect cylinder ;)
I thought most Canadian flour was ~14% protein and French flour was substantially less. I would think that would dominate any comparison between them.
Doc most of the Canadian flour I’ve seen on our selves is about 13.3% protein, of course who knows how accurate this is the packages usually state 4 G protein per 30 g serving. I’ve been able to track down a 10% protein all purpose flour that is from Quebec Canada, but it is not widely available and only found thus far is specialty food markets.
These are my first go at an all white flour 10% protein, in this case from Quebec, that is sourdough and no commercial yeast. After the good results I had with the sesame semolina sourdough baguettes without commercial yeast I decided I needed to give it a go again but with the Quebec white flour. These are essentially Abel’s baguettes au levain without the commercial yeast and hydration increased to 70% during bassinage and finally encrusted with poppy seeds. So I’ll just call them Yorkville Baguettes since that is the neighborhood that I live in ?
These were done in my now usual fashion with very little intervention, so only Rubaud mixing when adding the salt to ensure that it is well mixed. There were no slap and folds done. I did my usual two coil folds, in between telemedicine appointments (don’t tell my patients) so not quite at the usual 50 mins intervals. Bulk fermentation was monitored with an aliquot jar once again ending when the jar showed a 20% rise. The dough was put into a 2ºC fridge for bulk cold retard and stayed there for a bit more than 24 hours.
The following day I did a pre-shape into loose cylinders followed by a 25 mins bench remembering that the last time I used this flour it was extremely extensible. Shaping when pretty well for me and these were each then dampened on a wet towel and “rolled” on a cookie tray with poppy seeds. They were transferred to my floured couche seam side up thinking that the weight of the dough would help press the poppy seeds firmly into the dough to help attach them. They were given a 40 min bench rest. With 10 mins left to the bench rest the oven was turned on to pre-heat at 500ºF. At the 40 min mark the baguettes were put back into the fridge to firm up and stayed there for 40 mins.
Finally they were baked as usual with steam at 480ºF for 13 minutes and then 10 mins at 480ºF rotating them at the halfway mark then the temperature was dropped to 450ºF and the baguettes were given another 3 minutes and then they were done.
I’m super happy with how these turned out. I think these are my best baguettes to date and the ones I’m most proud of, there isn’t too much I’m disappointed with, not to say that they are perfect, but I’m really pleased. The shaping was probably my most successful, the crust is thin, crisp and really delicious with the poppy seeds.
“ They were given a 40 min bench rest. With 10 mins left to the bench rest the oven was turned on to pre-heat at 500ºF. At the 40 min mark the baguettes were put back into the fridge to firm up and stayed there for 40 mins.”
40 min rest then put into fridge for 40 min.
were the baguettes well fermented before putting in fridge? I ask because the dough at 2C should continue to ferment.
The ears are beautiful. And at 70% hydration and 10% protein!
so, 20% would be your preferred increase at this time?
I will be baking tomorrow. May try the seeded loaves. Yours look so nice.
Thanks Dan, I am so happy with this bake, it is one of the few that I won’t complain too much about any faults.
I actually had the aliquot jar stay with the dough throughout bulk and into cold retard and out on the counter whenever the dough was on the counter and back in the fridge when the dough was back in the fridge. At the end of cold retard en bulk, the aliquot jar was back down to the starting point, this is the exact thing I’ve seen in the past. By the time the shaped baguettes were at the end of their 40 mins bench rest, the aliquot jar was back up to 20’ish percent rise. I know this isn’t really representative of the degree of bulk, but this is more or less what I’ve seen in the past when I’ve done this, mostly out of curiosity. The baguettes at that point were puffier but didn’t look anywhere near a puffy as I used to have them when I used to bulk rise to 35%. So I’m not sure that they were well fermented, they certainly didn’t look like the 35% rise baguettes in the past, definitely less proofed looking than those. Yes I counted on them continuing to proof as they chilled out in the fridge.
I all about the seeded crusts now on baguettes. I’m also totally happy that an all sourdough raised baguette that I can make can still have that thin crisp crust that I want in a baguette. For the longest time I thought wrongly that I needed to use commercial yeast to get a thin crust baguette, that is not the case at all.
A few slices of that and you won't be able to pass your drug test.
Thanks Doc I’ll try to avoid drug tests this week as we eat these opiate covered baggies.
Benny, talk us through your process for rolling the torpedoes. How do you get the even reduction in circumference towards the ends? I imagine the dough was extensible and slack?
Yes you’re right the dough was very extensible, I have to say that I’m quite pleased with how this Quebec flour handles and tastes. I’m sure that I haven’t had the pleasure of working with French T55 or T65 but I’m happy enough with this flour that I’m not looking anymore. I posted videos of what I did with this bake. I didn’t post them to this tread instead posting them in my blog. I didn’t think you guys would be interested in my videos. As you may know I’ve been using Abel’s shaping methods and do find that they work for me. They are less complex than what I used to do. I’m not sure I could explain well, I’ll post the videos below. I’m almost embarrassed to post them for you guys to critique, but here they are.
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