This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
These are incredible - maybr we need to start a site called thefeeshbagette.com amd these bless the homepage. I love your crumb !
Thanks Geremy that is nice of you to say. I am very happy with the crumb, more open than my first attempt so pleased that I have a better understanding of what variables to change when making baguettes to produce a better baguette.
Benny and Doc, please give us the girth (at the widest part) of your baked baguettes.
I wonder if a larger girth contributes to more open crumb.
Doc is shaping typical baguettes, but uses a larger dough. Benny and Maurizio are shaping torpedos, although the very ends are still exhibiting very open crumb.
Just wondering...
Ya know, you may be thinking success is way off in the distance, when it could happen your next attempt.
At the widest 3”. But Doc is getting fabulous crumb and his must be narrower than 3”.
Benny, measure the circumference. Today’s bake is 7”.
OK sorry, the diameter at the widest point is 8.25”, so girthier than the ones you folks are making.
The only think that doesn’t line up with the train the thought is your narrow ends are also open with evenly distributed cell structure.
I’m going to dial this end, just don’t know how bakes it’ll take :-)
All of a sudden have the urge to bake a pie!
It will be the pie itself multiplied by the number of rasberries squared !
calculator to figure out the number of raspberries that fit into I M Pei's Louvre pyramid...
Lives under there Alan. Didn't you watch 'The Edge of Tomorrow' - thank our lucky stars for Tommy Cruise for getting that !
Just an hour ago in a previous post I wrote, “Ya know, you may be thinking success is way off in the distance, when it could happen your next attempt.”
Could it possibly be, my time has come?
This bake used Louis Lamore’s Traditional French Baguette formula with T65. The hydration was upped to 70% and minimal hand mixing was utilized. I did not want to develop a strong gluten. The goal was a 25% rise (Aliquot), but it got away from me and ended up at 34%. After so many bakes, I sincerely hope I am getting close to dialing in This crumb thing. But it’ll take consistently to confirm...
Starting to gets ears with the T65 and higher hydration.
NOTE - the crumb on both of these loaves was a very nice pale yellow, much like semolina. I attribute this to the flour and also the way the dough was gently worked and not over oxidized. A very recent bake used T65 and was thoroughly mixed in the mixer. The result was a bright white crumb and the taste was so bad, the bread was fed to the birds. But for this bake the flavor was good and the texture was great. Still wondering if the flour isn’t staling prematurely. But because my home is lite up like a surgical room (6000K, super high lumen LED) the true color gets washed away. I do like bright light... But guess what, Patsy must have some bat genes in her DNA because she is ALWAYS dimming things down :-)
Dan the crumb on these is excellent, you must be pleased. What do you contribute this to, higher hydration, less dough manipulation?
I think, less dough handling, but not sure. Also less BF.
Hope this can be duplicated. This is a major advancement for me.
What are you BF to lately?
once BF is complete do you shape and go straight to retard?
Are you baking straight out of the fridge?
Memory is bad and there is SO MUCH data in the CB. Sorry for any repetitive questions.
This most recent bake is the first time I adjusted BF down to 20% and I will need to repeat what I did to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. At 20% rise I then bulk retard the dough in the fridge overnight not yet shaped or divided.
Next day usually after 20-24 hours because of my work schedule, I divide and then rest 20-30 mins. I then shape, roll on wet towel and roll or place on the seeds. I have found I cannot roll on the seeds because in fact the seeds just slide around. The place in the couche. Oven is turned on to 500ºF. The shaped baguettes are left in the couche at room temperature for 30 mins, poke test showing that they aren’t yet overproofed and appear to be appropriately proofed. Then they are placed back in the fridge to stiffen up a bit to make scoring easier. By the time the oven has reached temperature the 30 mins or fridge time has ended so I transfer each for scoring and bake cold dropping the temperature to 480ºF for 13 mins with steam and then 480ºF with convection without steam for 10 mins rotating them halfway and then final 3 mins oven turned off.
Really great crumb. Since you're talking flavor recently - for this formula I think its a great path yo minimize thr mixing but also if you can swing 18+ hours cold retart yiu should get rewarded with some great flavor. Louis recimmends a min of 6 hours but I like to push it to 12, 18 even 24 hours.
On a side note and being nit-picky - your crust looks a bit dry. Got enough steam ? Another note - looks like you are going thin and long. Look out for thin kinks - I find that you have to be very mindful of the shaping leading to a thin spot that is hard to recover from. Not to be hyper-critical but you are at that level danno !
Geremy, I checked my notes and the shaped and couched dough retarded for 22hr @ 38F.
Thin sections in the shaping process is a beast, especially with very slack dough. Nit-pik me, I want to learn and improve :-) No Problem.
Dry and dull crust -
I must have an oven problem. Dry and dull are the norm. No matter how much steam is supplied. I don’t find major leaks in the oven and I’m able to drown the oven’s cavity with steam. I’ve tried all of the following and even combinations of these.
And combos of the above.
I am getting ready to setup Tom’s Steam Curtain to give that a try.
Any Ideas? I’m wide open...
I’m sure you’ve experimented with brushing water on your dough Dan did it help at all?
Not really, Benny. I’ve been painting the last 3 or so batches with water with little results. This problem has plagued me for years. No big blisters, no sheen.
I suspected the oven was too hot (550F), reduced heat, same thing.
Just the right amount is all it takes. Last week in my oven thread when I started doubting things I went ahead and baked a loaf in my new replacement domestic gas oven and totally botched the steam - ie I let it escape. The loaf still rose and burst but came out dull and you can see that in the pics. since you are using the same flour as I do I can only think that the environment is too dry. Did you try the top rack ? I always got much better results up top. Also are you really trapping the steam ? For example with lava rocks you'll get a burst and then simmer. Its that initial burst and that matters (it seems) and shutting the door asap to trap it. In my experience if miss trapping that cloud, the simmering steam is kind of useless. Also with a domestic oven pumped up to over 500F a little less than 1/2 cup of water seemed the ticket. btw heres what Im looking for in terms of timing and throttling. First 5 mins - the spring and takes it final shape. next 8-10 minutes - not much color change. the last 5-7 minutes its starts to darken to final color. I evacuate around 10 minutes and throttle the temps down and kind of play it by ear to try and achieve the color I want by 19 or 20 mins. Oh yeah I also mist the loaves and I find that helps a bit. I am torn wondering about this because I know your steam commitment with devices and a lot of experiments - even still I feel like it escaping by the photos. Is any of the above worth anything considering your setup and regimen ?
OK this is interesting, as you know I’ve been baking my baguettes on a baking steel on a roasting rack stuffed with crumpled aluminum foil. This set up is on the lowest level of my oven because my oven isn’t that tall. Geremy are you saying that you would reverse my setup and place the rack high in the oven and the steaming gear below?
I was just telling it like is and what worked for me. One thing that wad highlighted in my 'new oven' thread is just how different of an experience gping feom a domestic gas oven to a commercial electric oven. With my gas oven with its laege cavity the hottest area was up top. Lava rocks at the base and eventually nice looking loaves appeared with the top rack configuration. Since you are producing such beautiful reaults I think changing it may or may not make any difference and it might actually get worse results. I guess if you tried this it may just turn out to be an academic exercise only. So no, Im suggesting as a rule of thumb but merely throwing user experiences at Danny - if it aint broke why fx it ?
Yeah, I’ll probably leave it as it is unless I reach a point that I just want to fiddle with things, but I haven’t reached that yet. Thanks Geremy.
My lava rock pan is 13x9 and filled to the brim with the rocks. I pour 2 full cups of near boiling water into them just after loading the dough. Then close the door immediately., and force the oven to refire to bring the temp up from let's say 435 back to 480 again, which happens pretty quickly. But the thick baking stone ensures that the dough is not cheated out of direct or immediate ambient heat.
So there's a lot of steam going on from all that water and the burst of steam continues for quite a while. The amount of water ensures that the steam is invisibly billowing inside the oven box. Here's a very short video I made of what the vent looks like with steam coming out. This was probably a few minutes into the bake too!
One more thing - I've never painted or sprayed the dough on the way into the oven nor anytime during the bake. They all bake au natural!
I’ve never seen steam like that come out of my oven, that is impressive. I no longer brush water on my baguettes, but I do like the effect on the larger batards and boules.
Many have seen my steam capabilities, but for those that haven’t see video below. I don’t know the answer to my problem but I do know that I can inject large volumes of steam at will. I’ve never been able to get consistent blisters are glossy crust. DARN IT...
That is such impressive steam, I can’t imagine that your crusts aren’t getting enough steam Dan.
that the pressure cooker systen is not providing enough steam. Seen that video before and was really impressed. Yeah thats a mystery as to why you are not getting a shinier crust. Then alan goes on to say that he uses 2 full cups of water. Even bigger mystery ! I guess I would try toggling things and see what happens. I think the first toggle I would try is raising that deck a notch or two and I say that watching the steam from the hose coming in from the top. Are you using a gas oven ? I should by now already know but if you are that whole slot where the hose is coming in - well isnt that a long width-wise vent ?
Geremy, “Also are you really trapping the steam ? For example with lava rocks you'll get a burst and then simmer. Its that initial burst and that matters (it seems) and shutting the door asap to trap it.”
I couldn’t agree more about the short flash of steam from lava rocks. Because of this the steam pan is filled with lava rocks, then a piece of very heavy duty aluminum foil is tightly fitted on the top. At the back of the pan the aluminum flares up and towards the back of the oven. This prevents the steam from escaping out of the door and the aluminum is also setup to prevent to rising steam from cooling the stone because it is directed by the foil away from it. Only a small hole is open in the front to allow the filling with water.
I am working on the steam towel at this time. Don’t know what else to do.
High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, NO IDY, 125% BF, 35 min rest
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch weight
11.8% 100% 66.7% 2.0% 1776g + 30g for aliquot jar
227 (29 seed + 115 H2O + 115 BF -8 losses) 566 H2O 932 AP + 10 diastatic malt 21.40 salt
Make 259g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration
Process:
combine the 932 AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight. (Yielded 1502g net autolysed dough)
In the AM add the 252g levain and no IDY and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.
56.8° after 6 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.0° @2 min on 4
66.0° @4 min on 4
Add 10g water [this little big of bassinaged liquid seemed to do a lot for the dough - making it smooth and stong and extensible]
70.3° @6 min on speed 4.
(2.25°F/min)
71.6° after transfer to BF container and removal of 30g for aliquot jar
Ferment in retarder for 3:30@66°F, then 1:30 at room temperature (~80°F) to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~5:00 from start of mixing). BF in retarder at 66°F average was intended to slow it down a little so that it would not over-ferment while I was off at a meeting. This was probably not essential since there was no IDY in the mix and it was bound to be slow in any case
Divide into 4 parts (~444g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).
Counter proof for 1:15 (until it was puffy and soft)
Retard 1:45 @40°F to make it easier to slash
Aliquot jar was at 70ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase) when it went to the oven, but the aliquot jar had been on the counter while the dough was in the retarder.
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Analysis:
Including the DM in with the long cold autolyse seems to provide a darker bottom crust than adding it to the mix in the morning when the levain and the autolysed flour are combined and mixed.
Since Bennie ran a batch that had beautiful crumb without any commercial yeast, I decided that I would make the same adjustment to my successful baseline (which uses 0.1% IDY) and observe the result. Other than taking a while longer, the results are quite good. Shaping was somewhat hurried (and it shows), but the crumb is as good or better than previous trials.
The somewhat darker bottom crust is an improvement for those who like a dark bake (count me in that group).
I see that you found the same result as I did when I accidentally left out the IDY, the crumb you achieve is wonderful, really really and open irregular just as a baguette should be. I think you’ve also adjusted your scoring a bit, the straps seem narrower and the scores a bit more longitudinal rather than cross sectional in angle. I like the darker colour myself as well.
Well done Doc.
Benny
If you had x-ray vision and you looked into the shaped dough just before loading in the oven, what would the cell structure look like?
I am trying to learn if the structure of the cells (size, uniformity, wall thickness) are starting to develop in the pre-baked dough or if the magic mostly takes place in the oven.
When scored is the dough airy or is it compact and easily scored.
Is the magic taking place during a huge oven spring? Should our focus be on oven spring? A dough that blows up in the oven.
Strange questions, I know. I am trying to determine a main focal point for upcoming bakes when perfect crumb is the goal. Because of the relatively small circumference it is difficult to judge the amount of oven spring.
Doc, IMO you have elevated the quality of your crumb to Master Baguette Meister, Benny. Well done...
This is only a guess because I really don’t know, but I would think that the structure is already there in the unbaked dough. As the heat causes the water to evaporate and the alveoli in the dough to rapidly expand you get the oven spring. If I didn’t refrigerate the dough before scoring, it was always delicate and airy. It is only in recent bakes that with chilling the dough that scoring has been less scary with firmer dough. But I think that the cell structure is there already there in the dough and is only amplified by baking.
What does everyone else think?
1) Early errors are magnified downstream. The earlier the error, the greater the magnification, and the harder to compensate and correct. Errors caught early in the process are mostly manageable and create the least negative effects downstream.
2) The bake is nothing more than the culmination of everything that preceded it, right through the scoring of the dough. The structure and integrity is set in place before the dough is ever loaded into the oven.
Can the bake make a difference - of course. Dan's steaming related problems clearly demonstrate this. Or my own quite recent bone-headed move of not ensuring that the oven door was completely closed until about 8 minutes into the bake and the oven temperature had dropped off 100 degrees. Oven temperature management, hot and cool spots, manhandling a half baked loaf, the bread not reaching internal temperature... You all know the routine.
But none of these are related to the two key points above.
The openness of the crumb is fully determined by things you do before it goes into the oven, and is largely determined by things that happen before you reach the end of bulk proof. You can also damage it anytime you handle the dough (divide, pre-shape, shape). And we have pretty good evidence that the specifics of the flour you choose are less important, That leaves mixing and hydration and temperature and time (and potentially the amount of salt) as the major residual variables.
Doc, “ is largely determined by things that happen before you reach the end of bulk proof”.
Is it correct to assume that bulk proof the same as bulk ferment?
If cells structure is determined at the end of BF, it is amazing that it takes place at ~25% increase. This subject is extremely interesting to me.
Yes - I suspect that from there on (and perhaps before then), you are getting cell count reduction through growth, diffusion, collapse and consolidation, so it is probably important that you don't incorporate ingredients or process steps that tend to stabilize the alveloi (which is one of the roles of fat).
Just like Joe Jackson said. Ehm no, that was 'stepping out' .... whatever - a song about enjoying stuff after some challenges. Seems fitting enough
A little defective crumb but thats ok - no me importa
this pic below is for Dan who asked for a snap right after scoring. Its a terrible photo sorry -
You can't get what you want, 'til you know what you want.
Looks like the old times all over again. What a beauty. Look forward to reading more about this bake in the Sunday Papers...
PS Don't ever hire yourself out as a wedding photographer.
Thanks, Geremy. From the looks of the raw scored dough, it is apparent that you rely on massive oven spring for success. The image is helpful.
Your image gives credence to your belief that scoring is not as important as most people believe. Do you still agree with that statement?
I think the proof is the 'new oven thread' as you can see that each bake was scored just the same way and it wasnt until the oven conditions were hitting just the right temps and humidity then presto. Although I will say that this time I scored on a shallow angle as opposed to 90 degrees down and the ears developed better. So my position is that good scoring gets better reaults but you need the spring first and I think people get all wrapped up in the blade angle etc before solving the oven situation. Yah, I fogot to mention the little change up on scores this time. From here I'm ready to start loading more loaves at a time - just happy to part of this mega thead and 'back on the chain gang'
Geremy, I have also noticed that a low angle seems to produce better ears in doughs that are difficult such as baguettes.
I think there is truth on both ends of the scoring spectrum. Scoring angles and techniques matter and at least equally so, the condition of the dough and the oven setup must be combined in order to succeed. AND no ear is more challenging than those that sit atop a baguette.
9/19/20: High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY, 125% BF, 35 min rest, 3 x 425g + 2 x 250g baguettes
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch size
11.8% 100% 66.1% 2.0% 1802 (includes 30g for aliquot jar)
227 (28 seed + 115 H2O + 115 BF -8 losses) 566 H2O 932 AP + 10 diastatic malt 21.40 salt
Make 259g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration
Process:
combine the 932 AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight.
In the AM add the 252g levain and 1.048g IDY and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.
58.2° after 6 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
62.6° @2 min on 4
66.6° @4 min on 4
Add 10g water and bassinage into the mix during the next 2 min @ speed 4
70.6° @6 min on speed 4. (still not fully developed so mix another minute)
72.9° @7 min on speed 4
(2.06°F/min)
Take 30g for aliquot jar.
Ferment to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~3:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 5 parts (3x ~424g + 2 x 250g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).
Counter proof for 1:00
Aliquot jar =70ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase)
Retard 1:15 @40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Assessment:
This batch was for a birthday party so I didn't want to go too far off the farm but because I only needed three loaves, I decided to make two 250g baguettes just to see what the ears and the crumb would look like.
The crumb looks good on both the large and the small loaves, but the ears on the small baguettes are not impressive. The dough felt like it was over-proofed when it was slashed and the ears on all of the loaves are sub-par.
Other than that, the timing was close to yesterday with a couple of small differences: the temperatures at the various stages of mixing were sightly different, and the bulk fermentation was perhaps a couple of percent above the planned 25% volume increase just because of the few extra minutes it took to get prepared to divide the dough. With the IDY in the mix, it starts slow but by the end of BF things are moving quite rapidly and can easily go further than intended.
You’re really consistent now on the amazing open crumb Doc, it doesn’t seem to matter too much what process you use or whether or not it has IDY in it.
Doc has joined the ranks with Benny. When it comes to baguettes, both bakers are definitely “dialed in”.
Your baguettes are consistent and would garner the respect of the very best professional bakers anywhere in the world.
Shall I say it?
WORLD CLASS!
@Benny - I think you are right in that the structure of the crumb does not depend on the use of commercial yeast, but adding a little IDY can accelerate the process so long as I stay below 0.1% yeast to keep it below the threshold where it affects the flavor. But it does take some time for that small amount of yeast to get going. So today I am trying something just a little bit different.
Last night when I mixed the flour and water (@60% hydration), I incorporated 0.1% IDY into the diastatic malt and mixed that with the flour. So the cold autolyse was a fermentolyse or yeastolyse if you like since the levain was built separately. This morning, the autolysed flour and water (really just a no-salt dough @ 60% hydration), exhibited some volume increase overnight. Enough that it was noticeable but not to the point where the dough was soft, maybe a few percent. Then I mixed in the 100% hydration levain, then the salt, then an additional 5% water to bring the dough up to 70% hydration.
It required a few additional minutes of high speed (4 on the Famag) mixing to get the gluten developed to the point I wanted. The dough is pretty slack, so I may add a fold or two to the BF and see how long it takes to get to 25% volume increase. Previously, with the IDY added to the levain then immediately combined with the cold autolysed dough, the BF time was ~3:30. On the occasion that I pre-mixed the IDY with a little water and a pinch of sugar, BF time was slightly less, so there is some acceleration if the yeast is dissolved first.
How cold is your fermentolyse (without levain) Doc, are we talking fridge overnight, or mixed cold put into the fridge a short while and left at room temperature overnight?
I mix with room temperature flour and water (though I did not check either the water temperature or the dough temperature after getting everything combined and before it went into the refrigerator). The dough ball is ~5.5" in diameter (1668g of dough) though it sits only about 3" thick in the bowl so it will take a few hours to chill down to 38°F.
The levain was 26g of seed starter + 133g each water and bread flour (~1:5:5) and fermented at a measured but uncontrolled 83.7°F overnight, losing 4g of CO2 (~3% of the weight of the added flour) in the process, so it was mature but not frothy when used.
The dough temperature after mixing was 74.4°F.
So the bit of fermentation during the overnight autolyse probably led to the baguettes being a little bit overfermented leading to the slightly poorer ears, would you agree Doc? The aliquot dough rise didn’t take into account any rise the dough experienced prior to the aliquot dough being removed after the levain was added. So your 25% increase may have been 30% or at least somewhere between 25-30%. Not to take anything away from the finial baguettes at all, but just looking at the one thing you weren’t happy with, the ears.
Doc, “The levain was 26g of seed starter + 133g each water and bread flour (~1:5:5) and fermented at a measured but uncontrolled 83.7°F overnight”.
How many hours did your levain ferment. 84F sounds hot for an overnight ferment.
At ~77 all I can get with 20% starter is 10 hr. As we discussed, I am using very high protein flour for me long fermented levains. It seems the gluten will be stronger when it mixes with the dough.
Doc, I’ll be baking your formula tomorrow. Glad I didn’t go 68% as originally planned. 65% with sd seems about right, although very slack.
I say “Mysterious” because -
There are opposing thoughts and techniques from bakers that are consistently producing Master Quality Baguettes.
After reading the above the un-initiated might think that baguettes are non-demanding and therefore a breeze to make. It does look that way. But, if you decided to give them a try with excellence as a goal, you are sure to have a change of mind. That is not to discourage anyone from such a unique bread. They are surely approachable by all. The key word, “excellence” is what makes them a supreme challenge for determined bakers.
I am amazed at the results of the baguettes made using very different formulas and even opposing methods. The varied results seem to contradict one another, but “the proof is in the pudding”.
Like so many things with baking there’s more than one way to arrive at the same end product, more or less. I think is what we’re really showing, that there really isn’t only one way to make a great baguette.
The flours used were many and varied and when handled well all made pretty nice baguettes, but that does not eliminate the possibility that for each flour there is an appropriate hydration and degree of gluten development.
I am looking for the elements that were common to all who had reasonable success. Please chime in if I mischaracterize anything:
There seemed to be rather less dough handling between end of mix and final shaping, with high hydration dough more likely to need at least some while stiffer dough does not.
Pre-shaping using as little flour as you can arrange and to a shape that is close to final shape was widely adopted
Nobody added any fat
While we initially saw people bulk fermenting to 150% of post-mix volume (or higher), everybody eventually found that something closer to 120-125% produced better results.
Chilling the dough to make it easier to slash seems to be another common success story, though I am not sure that we have a consensus on a metric for how far to let final proof go before baking (or retarding).
I don't think anybody is still adding nutritional yeast or fava bean flour to their dough, but there are a few, perhaps most (though I don't know about 'all'), who continue to add diastatic malt to improve browning.
but for some reason I was under the impression that baguettes are leavened with "old dough" types of preferments. Be it a yeasted biga, pate fermentee or stiff levain. Something about baguettes and flavour makes this ring true.
is made with wheat flour, water, salt yeast in the purest sense, although thee is some leeway for a fava bean type flour to be used as well. With or without a preferment - typically a poolish if one is to be used. And typically with cake yeast.
But there is nothing that stands in the way of, for example, a levain baguette ala the Monge Baguette of Eric Keyser.
As much as anything, the baguette is defined by the shape, just as with a batard or boule, without regard to what components are used.
(welcome back)
Baguettes were made daily and needed to be ready by very early morning I came to the conclusion that old dough style pre-ferment from the previous batch was used, traditionally. But I think this is an idea I dreamt up.
Nice to be back. I'd love to join in but my set-up isn't great for baking baguettes. I'll just have to admire from a far.
Raise hydration to 70%, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.1% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 25 min rest, 8 x 250g baguettes
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt dough batch size
11.8% 100% 70% 2.0% 2000 + 30 for aliquot jar
285 [28 + 132 +132 - 7] 623g H2O + 62g bassinage 1039g HGW + 12g DM 23.60g salt
Make 292g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 62% hydration
Process:
Combine the 1039g AP flour, 12g diastatic malt, + 1g IDY and 623g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight. (Yielded 1668g net autolysed dough)
In the AM add the 285g levain and continue mixing for another 6 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.
57.8° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.4° @2 min on 4
65.0° @4 min on 4
Add 62g water
67.8° @6 min on speed 4.
70.4° @8 min on speed 4
73.1° @10 min on speed 4
74.4° @11 min on speed 4
(1.51°F/min)
71.6° after transfer to BF container and removal of 30g for aliquot jar
Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 40ml mark
Ferment to ~120% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 8 parts (8 x 250g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 25min, final shape (7 min).
Counter proof for 1:05
Aliquot jar =70ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 30/30=100% dough volume increase)
[This 100% volume increase in the aliquot jar between the beginning of bulk fermentation and the end of counter proofing seems to be consistent from batch to batch]
Retard 2:30 @40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Analysis:
The crumb is more open than when mixing at 66.1% hydration, and adding 0.1% IDY in the diastatic malt and mixing it in with the flour before combining the water for the autolyse seems to have accelerated the bulk fermentation and shortened it by about an hour (3:30 to 2:30). There was a small amount of volume increase visible after the overnight cold autolyse (maybe a few percent). The last time I tried this with 0.065% IDY, there was no observable impact. The fact that this batch required more mixing to reach acceptable gluten development is curious. The temperature rise rate during mixing was also quite a bit less than last time, perhaps because of the added 62g of water and the resulting lower viscosity.
At 70% hydration, the dough was substantially harder to handle even when dividing and shaping at 20% bulk fermentation. The ears are hardly distinguishable - possibly because there were so many baguettes loaded at the same time that the rate of heating was inadequate to generate the required oven spring to open the slash. Try backing down to 68% hydration.
The baguettes on the next to the top rack of the oven (the three baguettes on the right in the photo) have a darker crust. Perhaps this is because there was nothing above them.
and there is nothing wrong with the look either. Yeah, the scores are weak in comparison to your past dozen or so bakes, but now you've entered into the hydration and packed like sardines issues. I'm going to throw my hat into the corner that says. that the hydration is the real culprit between the two, and that scoring lower hydration doughs has us working with a more compliant dough, hence more initial control over how they respond.
"At 70% hydration, the dough was substantially harder to handle..." Just as soon as we think we have it dialed in and are feeling our oats...Bam!, the dough reminds us of who is the boss!
I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of artisan baguettes sold in fine bakeries have a hydration that hovers around 67-68%.
My guess is that the optimum hydration for the typical domestic commercial bread flour (if there is such a thing) is in the mid 60's (maybe 65-67%) so a baker would almost always want to work at the upper edge of what the labor can handle just to maximize the dough yield. Probably lower in Europe and higher in Canada.
So my next run will be at 68%, with 0.1% IDY included in the autolyse, and I am going to drop back to the larger baguette size just because that is the baseline against which all of the comparisons should be made. I expect a crumb that is a little more open than last week and perhaps not quite as open as today's batch, but with better ears. Should know in 24 hrs.
Trying to calculate your mixing time. Was it 48 or 56 min?
I’ve never attempted anything like that, but imagine the gluten is mixed to the absolute maximum.
How is the flavor?
It would be interesting to have to evaluate and compare the flavors of a bread mixed as above and another that was lightly mixed by hand.
Your consistent and well documented bakes add real value to this CB.
Great crumb. These baguettes remind me of the ones I was baking when I was somewhat overproofing them. I’d have really open crumb but then the ears and grigne were lacking Doc. I wonder if adding the IDY to the autolyse is the culprit, any fermentation then would have your aliquot jar underestimating the degree of rise.
Benny - thank you! That is a factor I had not even considered. I will make an adjustment to account for it. Probably add 1g of water to the aliquot jar.
Doc, have you considered adding the CY to your levain just before you mix it in the dough?
Is there some other reason to incorporate the CY in the autolyse?
The only reason I started adding CY to the dough was to reduce the end to end time. I have tried sprinkling it on the levain before combining the levain with the autolysed dough, dissolving it in a small amount of water with a pinch of sugar and adding it to the dough during gluten development, and adding it to the flour before mixing with water and beginning the autolyse.
So far the best effect (in terms of speeding things up without introducing a detectable commercial yeast flavor to the resulting bread) has been to add it to the flour before beginning the autolyse.
Nice to see that you boys are still at it while I have been hard at work. Benny making jeweled slippers, Dan is doing Po'boys, Doc is stacking them up like cord wood and Geremy has finally laid down his markers. Alans CB will go on forever. I have a little break in the action to do some baking again so I mixed up some T65 wonderdust batons. This flour is not as robust as american AP but the flavor and texture is really incredible. The burnt ends taste nothing like other flours.
I was a little rusty from the layoff so the shaping, scoring and loading did not go as smoothly as before.
Tapers, blunts and a barbell. My hands wanted to do them all.
I wonder if the wetter dough leads to a thinner crust. These were 74% hydration which I am convinced helps to get a more open crumb.
The crumb did not suffer from the clumsy handling and scoring.
This flour does not seem to attain the volume and strength of US AP but it excels in the eating department.
The road goes on forever and the party never ends.
Don, the crumb is outstanding and the rustic look of your loaves are beautiful.
Today I baked Doc’s formula (without CY) using T65. I stopped at 65% hydration because the dough felt very slack. I have started mixing by hand and purposely not developing the gluten. When the T65 is fully developed it seems to handle much more water, but IMO the flavor is drastically compromised. I have gone as high as 72% in the past but that one used CY only and the gluten was highly developed. I wonder if the acid from sd only makes for a slacker dough at the same hydration?
Is your clientele back to normal? I assume you are back to fishing.
Is still being decided. People have been cooped up and are itching to get out. The fishing was good and so was the catching. The smoke from the fires provided some shade from the sun and may have also added a wood fired oven taste to the bread.
I find the T65 comes together quite quickly and will unknit if you work it too much. I mixed these less than a minute and stop when it tries to shred. I have had good results from doing the last fold an hour after being in the fridge. I have not used SD with the french flour so I don't know how it would respond.
Dan would there be much acid from the levain at the time of mixing? I’d say your dough felt slacker because of your relative humidity compared with Don’s.
Good question, Benny. The thought may be wrong.
Maybe developing the T65 allows higher hydration. So much to learn.
Wow great ears at a high hydration Don and also incredible open crumb too. That bake has it all.
Doc has enjoyed so much success with his baguettes, I decided to try his formula using sd only and T65 flour. I deviated in that the dough was mixed by hand and purposely did not highly develop the gluten. The idea was that hopefully a great tasting french flour textured bread would be produced. The bread was chewy and required a strong bite. The flavor produced by CY only is much more to my liking. I failed in both categories, but the experiment added to my repertoire of knowledge.
I used this bake to test Tom’s Steam Curtain. Those results were mixed. The crust was shiny and there were a few blisters (a great Improvement over my typical breads), but the bread baked extremely pale and required 26 min @ 550F. Normally baguettes are baked in 16-18 min @ 550F. I assume the conversion to steam zapped a lot of heat from the oven. There are many mysteries that I’ve yet to uncover.
The bottom loaf was too long for the smaller stone used for the steam curtain. I was glad to have saved it, but it won’t win any beauty contest.
Dan the close up shot of the one baguette, the crust almost looks wrinkled as if it collapsed a bit, is it possible that it over proofed a bit?
I think the dough was under-proofed. I say that because the dough was BF to exactly 25% increase using a precise aliquot measurement. And after BF the dough was shaped, then retarded without any RT proofing. It was baked cold. No CY was used. So, I can’t imagine it was over-fermented.
The shaped dough was not poofy at the time of slashing.
The ability to discern over-proofing from under-proofing is difficult to discern, IMO. Cases like this one lends credence to that. We don’t know what we don’t know :-)
Maybe what I’m seeing is the effect of the steaming and baking then. I agree, hard to imagine overproofing with your methods.
Benny, I may venture into Final Proofing at RT and throw care to the wind at scoring time. I think it may be worth a try. Most of us, including myself are intimidated when it comes to scoring warm baguettes.
I used to do it and was always scared that the dough would totally deflate, it is an awful sight to see the wrinkles as your score the skin of the dough. It was bad enough that, as you know, I’ve gone back to putting the dough back in the fridge. Now, I haven’t tried scoring warm dough since I’ve greatly reduce bulk fermentation. When I was scoring warm dough it was also the dough that was somewhat overproofed so I wonder now with reduced fermentation if it would be less scary. The pros score warm don’t they?
duplicate
This was supposed to be built at 68% hydration (down from 70%), but the way it got mixed, it turned into 69.6% and it behaved like it through the whole process, High gluten flour, cold overnight autolyse, 0.13% IDY in autolyse, 120% BF, 35 min rest, 4 x 425g baguettes
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch size
12.0% 100% 68.0% 2.0% 1700+30
247 levain from (28 + 112 + 112 - 5) 538 + 40 H2O 886g HGW + 10g DM + 1.3g IDY 20.35g salt
Make 252g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration (in the future plan 8g extra for mixer and bowl losses)
Process:
combine the 886g AP flour, 10g diastatic malt, + 1.3g IDY and 538g cold water and mix for 7 min at speed 0. Knead a few turns until it is fully smooth and cover bowl with StretchTite and refrigerate overnight. (Yielded 1427g net autolysed dough)
In the AM add the 252g levain and continue mixing for another 4 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min at speed 0.
Temperature vs mixing time:
58.2° after 5 min @speed 0
Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed
61.9° @2 min on 4
65.1° @4 min on 4
Add 40g water
67.3° @6 min on speed 4
69.0° @8 min on speed 4
70.7° @10 min on speed 4
72.4° @12 min on speed 4
74.3° @14 min on speed 4
76.4° @16 min on speed 4
77.6° @17 min on speed 4
78.6° @18 min on speed 4
Temp rise rate decreases over time as the dough viscosity goes down, then increases as gluten development makes the dough stronger
Take 30g for aliquot jar - add water up to 42ml mark
Ferment to ~120% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~2:00 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (8 x 425g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).
Counter proof for 1:00
Aliquot jar =60ml
Retard 4:00 @40°F for timing and to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Analysis:
At 69.6% hydration, the dough was not much easier to handle than at 70%.
The dough behaved differently today with the temperature rise during mixing starting out steep, declined somewhat as the dough warmed up, and then went up again as the gluten developed and made the dough more resistant. Eighteen minutes of high speed mixing seems excessive but until then the dough was not forming a good window pane and was not fully smooth.
On the final loaves, the ears were indistinct and the crumb was quite open. It still seemed to have been over-fermented even though I started to divide 30 min earlier and with about 2% less volume increase relative to the prior batch (at 70% hydration).
The pre-shaped baguettes rested for a full 35 minutes (10 min longer than yesterday) and bench proofed for only 60 min before being retarded. When it came time to slash, the dough handled well, but the scoring cut through a lot of air pockets that were just below the surface. The reduced extensibility is probably the source of the somewhat closed crumb at the ends of the cut baguette.
As Benny pointed out, the fact that the yeast is active during the autolyse means that there is already some dough volume increase prior to the end of mixing which I had not previously accounted for. And because I put in 1/4t of IDY rather than separately weighing exactly 1g, it had an extra 300mg in the batch which probably helped accelerate the bulk fermentation even further.
Hard to argue with the quality of the crumb Doc, slightly overproofed gives amazing crumb, but just compromises the other aspects of the baguette.
Today I made sure that everything was in place and ready to divide when the dough got to 20% volume increase. Working at a more accurate 66% hydration makes everything easier. And compensating for things like 8g of dough that’s sticks to the equipment, the 6g of water coating the fermentation container and 15g of flour accumulated from the mat and couche made the divided loaves all hit their target weight.
So I ordered this 18" long hardwood cutting board for shaping baguettes to an exact 18" length. Also, I feel the wood is much more conducive to a good outcome. I also added a couple of more measuring vessels. 1 liter S/S and 150 ml, Glass. I am not too concerned with the accuracy or the increments, as everything hits the scale. I do like to have everything weight out and ready. Oh, the glass cups are straight-sided, very nice.
Will, I use that exact glass for my Aliquot Jar. In that case the ml marks are very helpful. 1ml of volume is equal to 1g of water weight. That makes water calculations very east to convert volume displacement to water weight.
I used THIS SCRIBE to mark over the ml marks that are painted on the glass. After the marks are scribed a marks-a-lot is painted over the marks, the the excess ink is rubbed off with a paper towel. Doing that removes the concern about the painted marks coming off during washing down the road.
That's why I mentioned they are straight-sided! do you find them to be sturdy? Look at how they were shipped and they survived!
The glass is holding up well for me. Only have one, would hate to break it.
Bad image, but this is how the marks are permanently etched into the glass.
Hi Danny,
I bought the same jar on your recommendation. Thanks! One note: you've probably thought of this, but an unmarked jar (or marks between marks) can be scribed in the same way to the level of water by added weight. For example, 5 grams water = 5 ml water.
--Tom
Thanks Tom. Have you seen THIS LINK?
It is really nice that 1ml of water is equal to 1g. With water, milliliter volume equals water weight in grams.
Yes, that’s where I saw your jar. I was a little amused by your hypothetical measurements to 0.01 ml. That’s why I suggested you might want to scribe intermediate graduations. :) :)
I bookmarked that post and plan to follow it in my next bake. Thanks!
Tom, where did I mention “0.01 ml”. I’m pretty detailed but that takes the cake :-)
“From the above it is determined that the 30g dough displaces 27.52ml (or grams) of water.
For this example a 25% rise is targeted.
27.52*0.25=6.88
...
Once the water level in the Aliquot jar rises to 46.88ml the fermentation of the bread dough is complete.”
LOL, I’m usually not that specific but because I have my trusty syringe to add water I actually do the weights to 0.01 g accuracy, only because I can.
Most of the baguette bakers have said they eat their day old and older baguettes, toasted. Try taking your serrated knife and cutting a crosshatch pattern in the crumb, then toasting. The texture is interesting and the crevices are nice when spreading condiments.
Very interesting idea Dan, is that something common in Louisiana? I shall try that.
No, not really. Just tried it and liked the results.
You did a good job with the name.
one week old diet! I figure that I can cheat a little around the edges and still have some of my morning toast, but these beasts are going to test my will power!
I had to give Don's Bouabsa method a shot, except that I shaped and returned to retard for the few final hours before the bake.
The dough was extremely elastic, rolled out to 18 inches, but shrunk back to 16. I think that had I pre-shaped a longer cylinder I might not have had as much of an elasticity issue. Even after post-shape hibernation in retard, the dough was so incredibly soft that the blade left saw-toothed marks as it worked through the scoring. One of the more difficult executions of scoring for me in any recent time.
The blob-headed baguette was caused by one of the scores not going through the dough halfway down, hence the pinched waist and the fat head. Grr. However, the oven spring was explosive and the crumb is quite open. The one baguette that I was able to wrangle a good shape out of, definitely shows the capability of this formula and the bake.
If anyone's tracking circumferences, the handsome fella is 16 inches long and 6 inches around.
330g x 3 long batards
Alan, these are extremely interesting. Love the rustic look. Do you have a link for your formula? Wondering if Don may have tweaked it lately.
To what do you attribute such explosive oven spring?
Standard 75% hydration, 2% salt, 0.16% IDY. Autolyse w/IDY 20 min. Incorporate salt & bassinage. "mix a couple of minutes by hand, rest 10 minutes, mix again for a couple more minutes." BF 2 hrs, coil folds at 40 & 80. Retard 16 hrs., divide into 290g pieces, letter fold, rest 15-20 min., shape & proof 45 min. Bake 480dF w/steam 10 min, release steam rotate and 14 min more.
My version: IDY whisked into water, incorporate the water and flour the barest minimum prior to autolyse, 20 min. Bassinage with salted water in 2-3 consecutive additions, pinch and fold between each addition. Rest 5 min. 20 French Folds, rest 5 min., 20 FFs. BF 110 min. Letter Folds at 40 & 80, the gentlest possible. Retard overnight. Next day divide, pre-shape as gently as possible int short cylinders, rest 20 min., shape, couche back to retard for the final hours. Bake 480dF w/steam 13 min, release steam rotate and 10 min more, 2 min venting.
I think that the BF went too long and the dough was past the stage at which it should have been retarded. Even after return to retard the dough was way too flaccid to score well. Maybe I babied the shaping too much in an attempt at being extra-gentle in all phases, and the skin was not tight enough.
That oven spring IS the Bouabsa oven spring. Very typical for the bread to bake like that.
Alan, what flour are you using? I can’t pull off 75% with T65.
what would you estimate the percentage of BF rise
In the standard tupperware container I use, it started at the 32 oz. mark and after almost 2 hrs. topped out at the 48 oz. mark. I typical am more aggressive at eh Letter folds, so I know that the "normal" BF wouldn't take it that far. Next time, I think that I'll cut the BF at 90 min.
The regular formula that I'd always followed for the Bouabsa has folds at 20, 40 & 60 min, and retard after the 3rd fold.
I’ll start a Bouabsa with KAAP today!
According to you info you went with a 50% rise. when you consider that the dough rose during the folds, your rise according to Aliquot would be even more, I think.
Considering 30-35% of BF rise using an Aliquot jar?