Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso

This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.

We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form

Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.

For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.

Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.

Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.

Alan writes:

I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."

NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.

Additional Resources

Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.

Danny

A late addition -

In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.

I do the pre-shape and the proof seam up to allow the dough to relax more. I roll out seam down and don't make any full rotations until the very end of shaping. The seam is usually obvious because I hardly compress the barrel when rolling because it is already the right diameter after shaping. Mostly I just stretch and taper the ends trying not to put a spiral into the seam. I can always find the seam but lately it requires reading glasses. My favorite part of the whole exercise is the final welding of the seam.There is something so satisfying about pulling the final fold over and hearing it pop against the bench. I envy the pro bakers that get to roll out dozens at a time. After my usual three at a time I feel like I am just getting the hang of it and there is no more dough.

I just recently with my last bake, stretched and rolled with the seam down as I saw Abel doing and that did seem to work quite well for me. So Don you’ve been rolling seem side down as well. How about everyone else? Until recently I rolled seam side up.

Then was we have discussed, seam side up in the couche.

Doc, that crumb is very uniform and plenty open enough for me. I am super impressed with your persistence. It has definitely paid off...

It is evident that all of the bakers that seriously applied themselves to this CB eventually produced excellent baguettes. Every one of them.

Awesome sandwich Will.

Benny, is it possible that the shape of your baguettes are helping the crumb?

Are they larger in diameter than the skinny sticks that some of us are shaping?

I know Doc's baguettes are larger than typical.

That is certainly possible Dan, they are usually about 290 g of dough for each and I try to get them 14-16" in length sometimes more successfully than other times. But if the baguette is more open crumb then more volume of air then it might be greater diameter as well no?

So, assuming 15” long @ 290g.

Side loaded baguettes ~21” long.

15/21=71.4%

How would you determine the dough weight with a relative circumference if the shaped dough was 21” long?

So at 290 g for 15" that would give us 19.33 g/inch.

So for a 21" dough at the same 19.33 g/in 406 g.

Thanks, Benny. Simple math solution.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/192180211305257/?ref=share

It is a little tempting to go back to the formulas that produced stellar visual results for me, but the search for perfect taste and texture continues to dominate.

For this bake KAAP was used to bake Abel’s hybrid baguettes. The hydration, including the oil was 70.5%. 3% olive oil was added with the idea of softening the chew. It seems that was successful.

Notice the difference in the ears on both loaves. The top baguette was scored with a very low angle to the dough. Somewhat similar to filleting a fish. The bottom bread was scored in a more (but not totally) straight down angle.

Conclusion - oil does in fact tenderize the bread.

Good demonstration of the effect of blade angle and ears Dan. Did the 3% oil only soften the crumb, did it soften the crust too? I wouldn’t particularly want to soften the crust unless the intention was to use the baguettes for sandwiches. How prominent was the flavour of the olive oil at 3%?

Softened the crumb, but not the crust. I didn’t notice a taste difference, but it could have been slight. I did use a light olive oil, though. The light version doesn’t have a strong taste.

Here is my take on Alan’s Sesame Semolina Baguettes. I used his formula generally but made a few changes. I added 0.07% IDY and also did an overnight Saltolyse and levain build. I forgot how low hydration this was going to be so in the future I wouldn’t do the overnight saltolyse and would instead just mix the levain IDY water and flours in the morning then add salt 20 mins later. I ended bulk at 25% rise in the aliquot jar and placed the dough en bulk in the fridge until the next afternoon. 26 hours or so after the start of cold retard the dough was divided and pre-shaped and left to rest in loose rolls for 20 mins. Shaping was a bit of a mismash of different shaping techniques but I think I like shaping ala Abel the most and will try to stick to that in the future. These were very easy to roll out to 16” and in fact with the first one I had to cut one end because it rolled out to 18” way too long for my steel. It was a challenge to roll these on the wet towel and roll them in the sesame seeds, each time I felt like I was degassing them a bit and then stretching them as well. I wonder if the next time I was to make these again, if I should proof to 20% and then after shaping let them have a bench rest at warm room temperature to try to bounce back a bit from the shaping, wetting and sesame seed applications.

Having never baked anything with semolina to such a high percentage before I didn’t know what to expect, but the dough was nice and extensible. The flavour of this baguette though, for a sesame seed fanatic is just outstanding. I’m not sure what the Semola Rimacinata is contributing for flavour but this is my favourite tasting baguette I’ve ever made. I dare say that it tastes better than the sesame baguette I used to buy at my favourite local bakery Blackbird.

The crumb has a lovely yellow hue from the Semola and is nice and tender without too much chew. The crust is very crispy with that amazing sesame flavour.

I have a line of dense crumb near the center of the baguette that when I examine it closely, I can faintly see white flour. I suspect that the dense crumb section is because of raw flour that got into the middle of this baguette when pre-shaping or shaping. I’ll need to be a better job of brushing off the excess flour. If it wasn’t for the yellow hue of the semolina I would never have seen this line in the dense area. I wonder if this causes some of the density in baguette crumb we see?

Anyhow, these baguette taste so good I just downed one plain no butter or anything for dinner.

Along with very few others, these rank right up there for me too. You did a fantastic job on these. Great scoring with lovely dark coloration to the crust and a nice open crumb. I think you'll find that semola r. just doesn't adapt really well to a very open crumb, but these are just dandy.

It's funny that I've never had the degassing problem when rolling on the wet towel or in the seeds.

If they last as long as breakfast tomorrow, you'll find that the toast is every bit as good and maybe even better.

(I may have to start charging royalty fees for the "wave-form" photos)

Thanks for sharing your formulas with us Alan, this one I really LOVE. I didn’t know that I shouldn’t expect such an open crumb with the Semola R, that is good to know so I won’t be too disappointed when it isn’t as open as the other baguettes.

I do find that the dough feels very delicate so when picking it up to transfer to the wet towel, then a bit of a roll on that, then picking up to transfer to the cookie tray with the sesame seeds to try to get a good coating of them, then picking them up yet again to transfer them to the couche, I felt as if they were getting degassed.

I think when I make these again, and I definitely will because I REALLY like them, I will stop bulk at 20% and then after shaping give them some bench time to puff up a bit. That way they might recover from my manhandling.

I’d be happy to pay royalties for your stolen photo angles if I was somehow able to monetize my photography. I’ll let you know once I’m making $ off the photos.

Curious what the formula was that you used, aside from the IDY boost. 40/60 AP/Semola r. with 67% hydration? As simple as pie. What was the individual weight of these beauties?

I otherwise followed your formula with 60/40 Semola R/AP and the 67% hydration. Each baguette was about 325 g each or so. Have you tried it with higher hydration Alan? I wonder if we could get it to open up a bit more with more hydration?

www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60723/weekend-bakery-semolina-and-sesame-baguettes-alfanso-style

This has the reverse percentages of AP & semola r. but I used the T150 whole grain tritordeum instead of the semola. 72% hydration. I'll suppose that had I used true semola it would have opened up a little more.

It is going to be a while before I get around to trying that, but they are beautiful.

I might be tempted to retard the shaped loaves then coat them with sesame seeds just before baking since they should be stiff at that point if they are fully chilled.

I was thinking of that, but I would have to flour the dough/couche sufficiently to prevent them from sticking once shaped and in the couche and back in the fridge. I guess I’d need to brush off the excess flour, then wet the surface of the dough and then roll in the sesame seeds. Cold dough would definitely be easier to deal with though.

I think I also just need more practice as this is only the second time I’ve ever applied seeds to the outside of dough.

A Big Change!

This bake was a typical New Orleans Po Boy bread. It is the Cajun rendition of the Baguette. It is similar to the baguette in shape, but the chew, crumb, and texture is quite different. My wife likes these.

The formula can be SEEN HERE. A Frenchman might pass out! It calls for vegetable shortening and sugar... But it do make a mean shrimp PoBoy. I have the spreadsheet with ingredients in grams if anyone is interested. They can be made easily in a morning.

Hey Will, you might like this bread.

I suppose that they are meant to be soft and spongy and to exhibit a pale color and dense crumb.

This should further dispel the notion that IDY's get thin crusts and Levain based breads are doomed to thick crusts. Both your bake #3031 ;-) and Benny's bake just above this are Levain bakes with very thin crusts.

Yep, there are no rules that crusts must be crunchy and crumbs are destined to be open. As many variations of breads as there are regions of the world. As my father would say "that's what makes the world go 'round".

These might make a mean bahn mi as well Dan. Have you guys had banh mi before, so delicious. The crust is super thin and shatters. In fact, there are usually fractures in the crust.

Never had Bahn Mi before, but I understand there is an outstanding Vietnamese bakery southeast of New Orleans. They claim there is often a waiting line for their fresh bread.

Other than the fact that you didn't use lard, it sure looks like a Cuban bread recipe. Maybe it is a vegan Cuban bread. If I was going to open the crumb up, I would start by deleting the fat and maybe the sugar.

Doc, how does fat and sugar work to reduce open crumb?

Go read about it in "Bread Science". See the bottom of THIS LINK

This worked fine, but there are certainly better ways to get to this end point.

PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total batch weight
12.0% 77% 62.0% 2.0% 1755g
227 levain (28 seed + 88 H2O + 119 BF -8 losses) + 565 H2O + 932 AP + 10 diastatic malt + 21.40 salt
Make 235g stiff levain (77%) by including in the levain all excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration

Combine:
565g cold water (refrigerated)
932g AP flour
10g diastatic malt
21.3g salt after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes
Mix 7 minutes at speed 0
Refrigerate 2 hr then take out and let it autolyse 9 hr overnight at room temperature (72°F)

In the AM - Mix 10 min at speed 0 to incorporate:
autolysed flour, water, salt + 227g net levain
0.7 IDY

Then mix 10 min @ speed 4; DT=80°F

Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total

1 set of folds just after mix +
folds at 0:20, 1:00, 1:30
BF to ~125% of original volume (48ml on aliquot jar)(2:30 from start of mixing)
Very little gas lost during preshaping; dough handled easily

Divide into 4 parts (~430g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 30 min, final shape (6 min)

At the completion of shaping, the aliquot jar was at 55ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 15ml expansion so about 150% dough volume increase) and dough was not yet floating on the added water though within a few minutes it did break loose and float with the top of the dough above the meniscus).

Counter proof for ~0:45
Retard 2:00 @40°F to make it easier to slash - with significant volume increase during the retard.

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle.

The slashes were all at a shallow angle per Danny's demo and the ears are more pronounced than on some prior batches when the slash was more perpendicular to the surface of the dough. Also tried to score in a more narrow lane down the middle of the loaf to reduce the circumferential extent of the slash, and the most visible consequence seems to be that none of the straps are broken! I will attempt to confirm this result in a future bake.

Bulk ferment was to 125% of post-mix volume (according to the aliquot jar though the dough temperature was probably a little above that of the aliquot jar so perhaps the real end point was a little above 125%. In this case there was no obvious bubble popping or deflation during pre-shaping. The loaf that is sectioned below was the most resistant to extension at final shaping with some larger alveoli which I have come to expect when I can feel bubbles in the dough as it is rolled out.

Getting the 77% hydration levain and the 60% hydration autolysed flour/water/salt to combine required a substantially longer mix (10 min @ speed 4 vs 2 min @ speed 4) than I was planning, and as a result the dough temperature climbed to over 80*F before it was satisfactorily smooth - and it still took multiple folds over the first 90 minutes of BF before it felt right. But after that it behaved very well. I don't know if the need for additional folds was due to the warm dough not mixing completely because of the lower viscosity or because the salt was in the dough for the warm autolyse or for some other reason. This did not seem to be the case when the autolyse was done in the refrigerator without the salt. It may be better to mix the levain at 60% hydration then after it is mixed with the 60% hydration autolysed flour, bassinage in the additional 21ml of water needed to bring the dough hydration up to 62%.

PS - everybody who received one of these reported that it was one of the best ever (which was my assessment from a flavor and crust texture perspective). So both stable, and in a good place.

Doc, thanks for taking to time to post your thorough writeups!

” Counter proof for ~0:45
Retard 2:00 @40°F to make it easier to slash - with significant volume increase during the retard.”

Would you happen to know the DT after the 2 hour retard?

Also of interest. You mixed your dough a very long time in the Famag. Up until reading this post I assumed long mixes would make for uniform cell structure, but very small cells. You’ve shown that not to be the case.

Side Note -
Strange to say, but I have become very fond of the New Orleans PoBoy breads. I’ve been eating some killa’ Shrimp PoBoys. Can’t wait to try oysters... Even though the crumb is uniformly filled with small alveoli, the bread makes for some great eating. I wonder if this formula can be made with a more open crumb.

The dough is firm enough to slash after 45 min of cooling (because the circulating fan in the retarder is big and moves a lot of air), but in this case I left it for 2 hrs to make it come out of the oven at a specific time. I will make a note and try to measure it today. Timing will be similar.

Yesterday I was surprised that I had to mix as long as I did and when I got to the end the dough was too warm and still stringy so I had to fold a few times during BF to get the strength I wanted. While it worked out OK in the end, I was not happy with the unpredictability while it was going on. This morning I did not autolyse at all and mixed with 38°F water. It still took 8 minutes of mixing at speed 4 to get the gluten development I wanted and the dough temperature was still right at 80°F when it finished. But the dough was much more supple at the beginning of BF and I did not do any folds after doing one to get the dough organized at the beginning. I just got done with dividing and the dough handled beautifully. Will see how they shape in a few minutes.

Doc, Benny and Don have been very successful at producing very open crumb and both prescribe to the idea that upfront gluten development is not desirable for maximized open crumb. Alan has reduced his slap & folds with that same idea in mind. I have also delved into this idea, but haven’t had the degree of success they have enjoyed.

From your description it seems you are fully or near fully developing the gluten in the mixer. Is this the case?

It seems logical that fully developed gluten in the initial stage would make individual cell expansion more difficult because of the gluten strength. It also seems that if the cell walls were not as strong, that expansion (with the same amount of gas pressure) would grow larger than if the cell walls were stronger.

Please share your thoughts on this.

This makes sense and isn’t that one of the reasons we generally have been using lower protein flour too? Less gluten to reduce elasticity and increase open crumb and make the stretching of the shaping easier.

My mental model of gluten development is that when you begin, there are a lot of sticky elastic threads that are almost exclusively stuck to themselves, some short and some long but not connected until you add water. As the dough is mixed you stretch the individual threads (which are initially very tightly clumped together and do not present much external surface area) and in the process break some of the bonds that are holding them together. The broken bonds then are healed by local chemistry but attach to some new place that may again be on the same thread or on one that was close by and was brought close by the mixing process. In the early stages of mixing almost all of the re-bonding is with the original thread at a different location but occasionally there is a connection made to a different thread. As mixing continues, the fraction of the re-connections that occur with other threads increases and the effective length of the threads grows as they attach to each other. Coiled glutenin and gliadin molecules begin to stretch out and make not only longer threads, but also connect to each other with side chain bonds that eventually form into sheets. It is these sheets that collectively become the walls of the alveoli.

CO2 produced by fermentation mostly stays in solution until the local concentration becomes high enough that the local partial pressure exceeds what is needed for it to exist as a gas in equilibrium with what is dissolved in the liquid. And as the local conditions change, the CO2 goes into solution in one place and comes out of solution in a place where the partial pressure is high enough to demand that it become a gas again. Since CO2 is being created throughout the dough, it collects in the local pre-existing alveoli. Initially the alveoli are tiny (micron sized) and because the O2 has been consumed by biological activity contain almost exclusively N2 until the CO2 begins to show up (as it comes out of solution at the wall). Initially the partial pressure of CO2 in the alveoli is zero so there is nothing to prevent CO2 from adding to the N2 in the alveoli, and as CO2 collects the total pressure rises (remember from chemistry that total pressure is the sum of the paritial pressures of the constituent gasses) and to the extent that the physics and mechanics allow it the alveoli expand. As they expand the internal pressure goes down since they are held together by surface tension.

As fermentation continues more CO2 is created by the breakdown of glucose which locally supersaturates the liquid phase and drives more CO2 into the alveoli which makes them bigger. Alveoli grow both by accumulating CO2 and by merging with other alveoli when a connecting wall collapses. The stability of alveoli is affected by other things that you put into the dough (such as lipids/fats) and the results of adding fat at different percentages impacts the wall stability and thus gas retention of the dough.

Emily Buehler in Chapter 2 of her book "Bread Science" (currently $20 at www.twobluebooks.com) presents a more comprehensive and no doubt more comprehensible explanation, so I will suggest that those who are interested order a copy at the link provided above. It is a great piece of work and she has filled it with original drawings that convey the details very effectively. You can see some previews on her website.

duplicate

I have found that dough handles much better if you develop the gluten up front and only fold if needed. And the evidence seems to point to better crumb when there are no folds. I tried a lower protein AP flour to allow full gluten development without having a super stretch-resistant dough. I have in my planned test matrix an experiment to try a higher protein flour and increase the water to the point where the dough handles as well as the lower protein AP flour, then search along the hydration axis to see what produces the best crumb.

As for the gluten strength and the implications for alveoli expansion, I suspect but not yet have any personal experimental data to verify that if you add sufficient water, at some point the dough strength returns to a sufficiently cooperative value that there is no major issue. Think about making ciabatta with high gluten flour and the frequently reported 90+% hydrations that show up in the successful trials.

PFF       levain hydration      dough hydration    salt     total batch weight
12.0%             77%                       62.0%   2.0%          1755
227 (28 seed + 88 H2O + 119 BF -8 losses)    563 H2O    931 AP + 10 diastatic malt    21.30 salt
Make 235g stiff levain (77%) by putting excess water above what is needed to do the initial mixing of the flour and water at 60% hydration when incorporating the the levain.

Process -

Combine:
231g net levain (apparently the losses were only 4g)
0.7 IDY on top of the levain
563g cold water (refrigerated)
10g diastatic malt
931g AP flour
21.3g salt after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes
Mix 10 min at speed 0 to incorporate everything

Dough temp = 68.6°F @5 min on speed 0 (surprisingly high for using 38° water)
Dough temp = 70.6°F @ 10 min on speed 0.
Dough temp = 77.8°F @ 6 min on speed 4.
Dough temp = 80.2°F @ 8 min on speed 4.
Take 30g for aliquot jar.
[Massage dough into the corners of the aliquot jar with a wet finger to eliminate air bubbles then approximately level the dough surface by poking it down and then add + 10 g H2O to make ~40ml total in the jar]
2 sequential sets of folds just after mixing and no additional folds during bulk fermentation. The dough was checked for window pane formation and extensibility after each successive 2 minutes of mixing at speed 4; gluten seemed to be fully developed by the end of the mix cycle and the dough did not stick to the sides or bottom of the rectangular Cambro fermentation container when folded.
Dough is remarkably easier to handle today (without an autolyse).
BF to ~130% of original volume (meniscus at 50ml level on aliquot jar at ~3:00 from start of mixing)
Very little gas lost during preshaping; dough handled easily

Divide into 4 parts (~430g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 30 min, final shape (7 min). Not as extensible as the prior batch but made cooperative by using two stages for shaping. Next time perhaps extend rest period to 45 min.

Counter proof for ~2:00
(aliquot jar was at 70ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion so about 100% dough volume increase relative to end of mix)

Retard 1:45 @40°F to make it easier to slash. The aliquot jar level was up to ~90ml by the time the baguettes were baked.

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis-

Crumb is not quite as nice as some prior bakes so something was different. Maybe the lower BF extent.
Lack of an autolyse seemed to make the dough handle more easily, enough different today to make me wonder if I mis-measured something yesterday. Will try this again to verify the difference.

Next time, combine the flour and water and mix for 5 min at speed 0 as if it was going to autolyse, then add the levain and IDY and continue mixing for another 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine them before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten.

I tried a new trick with the aliquot jar by using a wet finger to massage the 30g dough sample down onto the bottom of the jar with no trapped air pockets. This seemed to allow the dough to expand further without detaching from the bottom and floating until very late in the process.

I noticed today that the baguettes seemed to be quite uniform in diameter when they were loaded, but one end emerged slightly larger than the other and it seems to be the end that was initially at the back of the oven that was larger (they get rotated about half way through the bake). I wonder if there is a non-uniform distribution of steam or hot air.

A low angle slash yielded nice ears in the cold dough, and again sticking to a more narrow lane down the middle of the loaf seemed to reduce the tendency of the straps to fracture/tear completely. May try to score two deep and two shallow next time and see how that impacts the appearance.

I have been using 700mg of IDY for a while and have never detected a commercial yeast taste - in fact these have been remarkably sour for such a rapid fermentation. I may increase the amount of IDY to 0.2% and see what difference that makes.

Doc, many bakers use AP flour to feed their starters and levains, but like you, I like to use stronger flour when fermenting starters and levains. The thought is, it brings stronger gluten into the dough. It makes sense.

”227 (28 seed + 88 H2O + 119 BF -8 losses)” then you used AP flour for the Final Dough.

I happen to keep bread flour in my bench flour container so it sits on the counter where it is handy. And since there is not much in the levain (~12% of the total) my rationale is that it does not contribute a lot to the final dough (from a protein perspective) and thus becomes a don't care unless I am running an experiment where it might make a difference.

But you make me wonder how the starter would do if fed on corn starch or tapioca starch. That might be an easy excursion to run and would generate some data - whether or not it results in any incremental knowledge.

I just saw this baker’s video shaping and seeding baguettes on Instagram. No folding just rolling. Then no setting of the dough to adhere the seeds. https://www.instagram.com/tv/CFDcO06jiXQ/?igshid=ver6sfo9ldeg
I’ve never seen anyone shaping without some folds.

We don't see the resulting crumb, and it looks to me like he is cinching the dough as he rolls it out. Very interesting technique. Watch his thumbs as he rolls the dough.

When it comes to handling dough, particularly proofed, the less handling of the dough, the better. He's shaping a dough that has already been pre-shaped, instead of just divided. And we can't see the true type of work that went into the pre-shape.

Here's a case, Benny, where he is able to get a poppy coating without the water coating on the dough. Pretty sure I picked up that hint from David Snyder.

From this angle it is a little hard to tell all of what his thumbs are doing. He certainly is using then to help guide the shape as he rolls them out. But is he also allowing his thumbs to drop to the bench and help with surface tension? Similar to the way that pinkies and thumbs are used to create that surface tension for a batard.

I will have to refine my shaping, I keep forgetting to think about what my thumbs are doing. I will need to turn off autopilot next time and concentrate to use my thumbs as I would in shaping other breads at the bench to create tension. I found a photo of his crumb.

Nothing wrong with his crumb.

I will try getting seeds on without water next time. I see that he allows the dough to rest on the seeds a while, maybe that also helps with adherence without water?

Well, looks like I have finally figured out my new electric oven so will just drop some pics here. Long and short of it is that in dealing with a gas domestic unit for so long I was only able to get decent loaves by jacking heat and using a lot of water (relatovely speaking). This Rofco-esque machine requires subtle setting on top and bottom elements and and splash of water and bob's yer uncle -

Full learning trials and tribulations here - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65316/new-oven-build-preliminary-results?page=1#comment-468816

That light golden color is the Italian/French bread hue of the bread I remember fondly from my youth in Brooklyn. Perfect!

In my opinion, Geremy nailed the baguette. Shape, ears, oven spring, and color are impressive...
As for eating, that is my perfect color. His crust is also super thin.

I like the look of our rustic darkened, large eared baguettes, but for eating these are my preferred.

Well done, Geremy!

So as it turns out Dan, I was for sure over steaming. The initial tests were suggesting that a lot of steam was just evacuating though the cheaply fabricated interior chamber. From here I siliconed up all the seams with BBQ smoker high temp sealer From here I cntinued to really douse the steam trays and remarked that my temps would plummet so from here tried jacking the heat. All of those over steamed bakes would end up softening with micro thin crust after cooling. Now that things are dialed in the crust is just right and staying firm. The bake progression looks normal now (every stage). I will do a summary write up on ther other thread. I think this really valuable complimenting thread to the master baguette thread here :)

Brooklyn ! Dont get me started on food in the NYC especially street kababs with white sauce. I will tell you one thing. I think we have better Delis in Los angeles :)

Great to see that you’ve figured your oven out. I guess it is so different from anything you’ve used before so it took longer than you expected it to. This bake is amazing in every way Geremy.

Now that things are making sense and predictable I'll start planning to use this stuff. Its an ancient gtain so olan is to 50% this with the T65 -

Omg this darn phone - with I could take a normal pic

That should be similar to the semola rimacinata right at least related.

I like the darker bake for both staring at as well as the crunch of the crust.

Doc - Geremy demonstrates here that he can achieve a really open grigne while keeping his score lines quite close together. From his past bakes, this is a constant with him from bake to bake.

I am speaking more to everyones signature style. I gotta throw that out there since the title here might look a bit petulant. Yeah so first thought that lingered in the back of my head beyond all the doubts about this purchase was that if I can even 'dial' this oven in, will my loaves look the same ? Amazingly they do - in every way including things not caught on my p.o s. camera such as they cooling cracks. Well, it just makes you wonder and marvel how Dan's look like Dan's, Benny's like Benny's, Doc's like Doc's...yours like yours. This list goes on - MTLoaf's like .... well, DMSnyders (what the !). You know Alan I will occassionally push the bake into your dark realm but I find the crust a little too challenging eating-wise in fact I prefer the darker color visually but eating purposes is really the impetus for going 'golden'.

I wonder if it is the scoring, the flour, or how well they are proofed, or something else. But shows that it is possible. Very nice work all around.

Did I stop and think 'why is doc scoring so far apart'. For the record I score almost 90 degrees down and do it just like the some of those magic magic marker tutorials. On a related note, I thought (just yesterday) maybe I ought to slice in on an angle like Alan preaches and then maybe I too will have a 'flap' that can really announce itself. And I just want to say this for the record "ALAN'S CRUSTS RULE" <- alan please send a PM to confirm you registered this.

Doc you use the Moulin T65 - a quaeter inch in between, 72% I find that the shape of the final score is almost always a rhombus whether or not it bursts and from there its all about that 5 minute period of expansion characteristics. And ! btw these are rather thin loaves prior to final (about 1.5 inch diameter)

I went through 20Kg of the T65 and can confirm that it was hard to deal with (as others have confirmed) but at the time I was not ready for it. Maybe I will try it again at some point.

Great to know that you found a way to get the small diameter sticks to open up. It sounds like it has something to do with the oven. But maybe also the leavening. The batch I am running today has 2g of IDY (vs 700mg previously) in addition to 12% PFF so I will see how much of a difference it makes. The behavior with the extra IDY is like using nitromethane as a pyro accelerant. But when I tasted a bit of dough left in the aliquot jar, the flavor was more commercial yeast than my levain. So I will wait for final judgement until the cooled baguette is sliced.

Used the same formula (Saveur’s) as Bake #32. Since Doc is getting nice crumb when dough that is fully developed up front, I gave that a try. 4 separate mixing sessions at speed #0 for 6 min (24 min total - ending DT = 77F) with a 20-30 min rest between. The dough was super supple and I think it had the “plastic” qualities that Michael mentioned in a post today.

In order to keep the dough cool I used 2/3 of the water weight in shaved ice. I used too much because the dough after the first mix was 33F. I think this slowed the heck out of the CY.

At any rate the bread produced was typical of the New Orleans PoBoy breads. Crumb was a little more open, but I have a long way to go towards producing a crumb similar to Doc’s. Next bake my be Bahn Mi!

Dan what surprises me about this bake is that so many of the straps broke, that isn’t usually what happens with your baguettes. What do you think caused this?

Could have lots of oven spring, or possibly the fully developed gluten wouldn’t relax enough to all ow the straps to expand.

Goo Question, though.

I may be handling the dough to heavy handed at shaping. I say that because the center of the loaf has decent crumb, but not the ends.

if so its none other I've seen before - really open crumb - good job !

If you want an open crumb, why not start with a baguette dough? First add some sugar and verify that it doesn't mess up the open crumb. Then add some fat. Maybe 1% at a time and watch the crumb behavior. Try adding liquid fat 1%, Then try solid fat 1% and see the difference.

Q: if this is the typical po' boy bread, but much nicer IMO, why would you want to change it to a more open crumb? If the idea is to get a bead that emulates that classic, it seems that you are already there. Wouldn't a more open crumb also "endanger" the sandwich structure, considering what gets put into it?

Alan - I would like the breads to be lighter, less calories. It’s in my nature to always try to improve, make better than the original. I often don’t succeed, but non the less, driven to that end.

PFF     levain hydration    dough hydration      salt     total batch size
12.0%          77%                      62.0%            2.0%      1755
227 (28 seed + 88 H2O + 119 BF -8 losses)    565 H2O    932 AP + 10 diastatic malt    21.40 salt
Make 235g stiff levain (77%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration

Process:
Combine the 932 AP flour, 10 diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mix for 5 min at speed 0 as if it was going to autolyse, then add 227g levain and 2.088g IDY and continue mixing for another 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine them before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the first 2 min.

Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed, checking temperature and gluten development after each step (adding salt during the first 2 minutes)
69.6°F @ 10 min on speed 0.
71.8° @2 min on speed 4
73.4° @4 min on speed 4
75.6° @6 min on speed 4.
78.3°F@ 8 min on speed 4.
80.6°F @ 10 min on speed 4 [ this progression is almost exactly 1.09°F/minute of mixing time]
Take 30g for aliquot jar. Massage into the corners of the jar with a wet finger to eliminate air bubbles then add + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total

BF to ~150% of original volume (to 55ml in aliquot jar at ~2:50 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (~430g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 25min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 0:45
Aliquot jar =75ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 35ml expansion so about 35/30=115% dough volume increase since end of mix)

Retard 2:00 @40°F to make it easier to slash

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Summary: Good but not great

While the additional IDY took some time off the total process by accellerating bulk fermentation, there was a cost in terms of flavor. Not so much that there was a dominant commercial yeast element, but because the normal complexity and acidity of the levain seems to be suppressed. On the other hand this batch seemed to be somewhat over fermented during BF which may have contributed to the off flavor profile. It handled very well for pre-shaping, but final shaping suffered from a lack of the easy extensibility of previous batches. I don't know whether this was related to not using an autolyse or to adding more IDY. The crumb seems compressed, though the center of this loaf (which I thought might have been crushed) turned out to be quite open.

I kept one uncut loaf which I will let stale overnight and plan to make bruschetta with it tomorrow. I will have a better sense of the hole distribution after I get all of the slices laid out tomorrow.

I will cut the IDY in half and do a repeat tomorrow using an overnight cold autolyse (and try to BF to 25-30% volume increase instead of 50%) before shaping.

Vietnamese Baguettes - Banh Mi

I followed the formula and process in THIS VIDEO. Bottom Line, the flavor was poor. I think there was too much yeast. Possible the dough was over oxidized.

The crumb was dense, there was too much dough in each bite. This didn’t work for me.

UpDate - after more thought I think I know why this bread lacked flavor and was blah. Salt 1.59% coupled with CY 1.79%. The dough fermented too quickly...

Dan that’s a pity, are you going to try a different recipe for Banh Mi?

I think the next bake will return to the New Orleans PoBoy breads with a few ideas gleaned from the Banh Mi baguettes. I like their shaping, slashing, and higher baking temps. I may give the T65 a shot with the NO PoBoys.

I checked and the Banh Mi formula used only 1.6% salt. The other formula considered also used a small percentage of salt. That may have negatively affected the flavor. The bread was sampled again, and it is not worth eating, IMO.

PFF       levain hydration    dough hydration    salt     total batch weight
12.0%           77%                      62.0%   2.0%          1755g
227 (28 seed + 88 H2O + 119 BF -8 losses)    565 H2O    932 AP + 10 diastatic malt    21.40 salt
Make 235g stiff levain (77%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration

Process:
Combined the 932 AP flour, 10 diastatic malt, and 566 cold water and mixed for 6 min at speed 0 (~100RPM spindle speed). Kneaded a few turns until it was fully smooth, placed in bowl and covered bowl with StretchTite, refrigerated overnight (10 hr). In the AM combined 229g levain and 1.01g IDY with the autolysed flour/water and continued to mix for 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine them before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporated the salt during the first 2 minutes at speed 0.

Mixed at speed 4 (~200 RPM spindle speed) in 2 minute increments for a total of 6 minutes (until fully developed)
Dough temperature:
55.0° after 5 min @speed 0
59.1° after 2 min @ 4
63.2° after 4 min @ 4
67.5° after 6 min @ 4 (very good extensibility)
(note temperature rose by 1.05°F/min while mixing at speed 4)

Take 30g for aliquot jar. Shape it into a somewhat long but narrow cylinder and lower it into the aliquot jar; spreading it out into the corners after contacting the bottom without trapping any air. Give it a few seconds to firmly attach to the sides then massage into the corners of the jar with a wet finger to eliminate any remaining air bubbles then add + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total

BF to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar)(~3:15 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (~430g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:15
Aliquot jar =70ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 30ml expansion, so about 100% dough volume increase when it went to the retarder)

Retard 1:45 @40°F to make it easier to slash

Score two loaves [two at the bottom of image] shallow (~5mm) and two loaves deep (~1 cm) [two at the top]

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis:

This seems to be right on the mark - dough took only 6 minutes at high speed (200 RPM spindle speed) to get to full gluten development with very good extensibility when shaped (perhaps aided by the cold autolyse and a 35min rest after pre-shaping); a uniformly open crumb, good ears, good color, crackley crust. I think I like the results of a deeper score (~1 cm in this case without much blade rotation so pretty much a straight down cut though with a curved lame blade).

The reduced extent of bulk fermentation (to 125% of post-mix volume instead of 150% yesterday) took longer because of the lower dough temperature but made shaping much easier, and the pre-shaped loaves were very extensible and thus amenable to stretching before final shaping and rolled out with almost no effort at all (after resting for a full 35 min during which they increased further in volume).

The reduction in IDY from 0.2% to 0.1% eliminated the flavor component that I associate with commercial yeast and again allowed the levain to again take center stage, so 0.1% will be the upper bound for future efforts.

These could probably have proofed a little longer before going to the retarder since they handled so nicely when they came out. [note to self: be patient]

Doc, your persistence has paid off! I plan to try your formula and process after I tire of the N.O. PoBoys.

Crumb is unique to you, and I’m liking it... alot!

I am going to have to change my lighting. The top-down view needs some side lights to really show off the crumb. With most of the light behind the camera all you see is white even when it is all nooks and crannies.

Plural for Rhombus. I like the scores !

I was trying to keep from cutting off my thumb and hold the angle and the slash length to stay in the middle of the lane. But there was so much oven spring I should have gone for 1/4" offset and tried to stay inside a narrower 1" lane. Maybe tomorrow when I am going to leap over to high gluten flour and jack up the hydration to 67% in an attempt to hold dough handling qualities close to what I had today. I don't expect it to be perfect but a step on the way. Maybe two or three tries to nail it down. I thought about adding some nutritional yeast but gave myself a dope slap for even considering a change to more than one thing at a time.

You're obligated to post the wound. I posted a nasty cut a month or two ago. No pain no game !

one bake from the next. To me that's a good thing. As mentioned before your scores are getting really consistent and the grignes are just dandy from one bake to the next. Of the three above, I'll place my vote on the bottom one, where the lines between the scores are the narrowest, even if the bottom one broke through. To me, those burst-throughs are part of the beauty, and not a defect. They give character to the visual quality of the bread. In competition, that would be the death-knell, but this isn't competition here.

To the chagrin of you all, I have yet to cut myself with the scoring lame. Now that the cat is out of the bag, I expect a visit to the ER real soon.

You maybe just jinxed it - I dunno ? Better keep some super glue handy now. Agree on the broken straps tho - a bit like the patina of rusty old buildings - a little character is nice.

Wonderful baguettes Doc. The crumb is spot on and the ears and grigne are amazing.

Funny now that our baguettes are looking better we are talking about better lighting for photography.

When the improvements are exhausted, some of us have to revert to better camera work and improved lighting :-)

I wish I was at that point, lol.

PFF      levain hydration   dough hydration      salt      total batch size
11.8%           100%                    66.1%            2.0%    1795 - 30 for aliquot jar
227g levain (28 seed + 115 H2O + 115 BF -8 losses) + 565 H2O   + 932 AP + 10 diastatic malt   + 21.40 salt
Make 258g levain (100%) by putting into the levain the excess water above what is needed to do the autolyse at 60% hydration

Process:
Combine the 932 high gluten white bread flour and 566 room temperature water and mix for 6 min at speed 0. Turn out on the counter and knead a few turns until it is fully smooth then put it in a bowl and cover with StretchTite; refrigerate overnight.

In the AM add 251g levain with 1.01g IDY sprinkled on top and 10g of diastatic malt to the autolysed flour and water; continue mixing for another 5 minutes at speed 0 to fully combine the ingredients before moving to speed 4 to develop the gluten. Incorporate the salt during the last 2 min at speed 0.

Mix at speed 4 in 2 minute increments until fully developed:
Dough temperature:
59.2° after 5 min @speed 0
64.0° @2 min on 4
68.7° @4 min on 4
Add 10g water since the dough seems to be a little stiff
72.7° @6 min on speed 4
[this temperature increase is 2.28°F/min of mix time so a BIG increase for using high gluten flour even at a higher hydration]
Dough looks like this at the end of the mix

Take 30g for aliquot jar and add 10g of water to bring it up to the 40ml mark

BF to ~125% of original volume (48 ml on aliquot jar; ~3:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (~430g) and pre-shape (5 min), rest 35min, final shape (7 min).

Counter proof for 1:15 (dough is soft but not poofy)

Retard 2:45 @40°F to make it easier to slash (next time try retarding at 50°F to see if
Score narrowly down the middle of the loaf with 1/4"- 3/8" offset

Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle

Analysis:

This is my new baseline!

This was a move from AP flour to high gluten flour, making an effort to add enough water (up to 66.1% hydration) to have approximately the same dough texture as I was getting with the AP flour at 62% hydration. I will probably go up 1% next time just to see when it gets too soft to handle.

The results are quite pleasing, with an even more open crumb (and without any lighting changes), easy to shape after a 35 minute rest (I used a two-stage final shaping protocol for two of the four loaves that were a little short after the first stage of rolling out).

The crust is explosively crunchy (as opposed to crispy), but the higher gluten (speculation) gives it a little more resistance; color is good, taste is excellent.

Scoring looks a little better this round, with the higher protein flour apparently providing enough strength to keep the straps from breaking even with more expansion during proof and more oven spring. I also note that the loaves are not as lumpy as some I have shaped and scored in the past.

I really like your crumb Doc. Very impressive with the use of high gluten flour, something most of us haven’t been using recently I believe. You did do something I have been thinking of doing more recently, that is bulk fermentation to a lower rise and a longer final proof and it seems to have helped with the crumb. I have a levain going for another go at the Semola Rimacinata baguettes and I was planning to end bulk earlier and have a longer final proof at room temperature after shaping before another period in the fridge to allow cold scoring. A lot of back and forth in and out of the fridge, but I’d like to see if I can get a more open crumb. Great job on your part.

Another great looking bake, Doc. Do you think your oven setup has a lot to do with your excellent crumb? The crust looks thin and dark, while the crust immediately near it is open.

What changes have you made to improve the even and open crumb that you now produce? Please summarize.

After a few small changes very early in the game, I have been using the same oven program for every bake, so I doubt that it has much to do with the improvement in the crumb.

Summary:

This was bake #29 by my count (there were a number of dead-end trials that were not worth wasting time too write up, but that is part of making progress). And I think that the results reflect the cumulative effects of following the data and making small, single parameter changes to understand the impact on the end product. The contributions of everybody who is posting and commenting have contributed a lot of value to the evolution.

Trevor's guidance to avoid screwing it up at each step is always in the front of my mind. Benny set the example of consistent open crumb, and he was the origin of the use of the aliquot jar for measuring BF volume increase. He also pointed to Abel's pre-shaping style which has been a key improvement. Alan and Geremy have coached on techniques that have proven to be valuable for improving consistency and appearance. The experiments with low hydration dough were very informative, and your observations about minimizing the use of flour on the bench and the dough were flashbulb events that got me to differentiate between tacky dough and sticky dough so my dough handling skills have improved a lot as a result.

I now add 1% diastatic malt where I previously did not. And I keep nutritional yeast as an option which I am not currently using. For a long time I avoided using commercial yeast, but when the experimental matrix was filled without it and I started adding under Benny's guidance 0.065% (and eventually 0.1%) things improved further. So it is a cummulative result based on data-driven experimentation and process consistency. Having gone to a very low protein flour to get good crumb, discovering the very clear relationship between hydration and protein level and their joint impact on optimum handling qualitiets, then exploiting that to go back to a high gluten flour while in the process taking advantage of the additional strength to increase the degree of proof and thus get even better crumb. Just incremental improvements while deriving the design principles.

I may have stumbled upon something while scoring today.

While attempting to score the baguettes at an extremely low angle (fillet style), it was discovered that starting the slash with a more straight down angle, then immediately after penetration laying the blade over to the desired low angle made the low angle score much easier to start. Often times starting out at a low angle makes it difficult to start the score. This also possibly reduced the dreaded drag. Will require more testing. The dough may have been nice for scoring. But the dough today was never retarded, so it wasn’t chilled. And the flour was T65!

It’s worth a try.

The bread above is Bake #35. Writeup when sliced.

Abandoned the Banh Mi and went back to the New Orleans PoyBoy. I suspected the tight crumb may have been due to over development of the gluten. So these were hand mixed. Still has a texture more like cake than open crumb bread.

Next attempt will use less sugar and/or fats. The dough baked only 16 minutes at 550F (my sweet spot for ears) but the crust was too dark and the bottoms were slightly darker (less sugar for sure).

The great news is this bake used T65 flour and produced very nice ears. The dough behaved very well, although I messed up the water and had to wind up adding more water and going by feel. Wished I hadn’t done that...

I did learn a trick for shallow scoring and it seemed to help a lot. See THIS LINK. Too bad the top bread came of the loading board crooked. Tried, to no avail, to straighten it.

The flavor of the T65 did not come through on these. Another disappointing bake as far as flavor is concerned. The flour tasted stale, which I don’t think was the case. I know the gluten was not over worked. Best guess is the dough with added sugar and fat didn’t like the high heat bake (550F). But, the ears did :-)

Ba+k to the drawing board...

Liquid or solid fat when it was mixed in? Vegetable or animal origin?

Vegetable shortening. The bread is so bad tasting, it will be thrown out.

I hope T65 doesn’t stale too fast. That is how the bread taste. The fats are fresh and what is called for. Last attempt with KAAP tasted great.

Back at the same sesame semolina sourdough baguettes but with some changes to try to improve the crumb. So I made some changes in the hopes of achieving a more open crumb. The first significant change I made was to delete the commercial yeast altogether, this change was made by accident and wasn’t planned as removing the commercial yeast wasn’t something that I thought would improve the crumb. In fact, I thought that the addition of commercial yeast was part of what was giving my an open crumb.

I increased the hydration from 67 to 71% and I also reduced bulk fermentation rise in the aliquot jar from 25 to 20%. My thinking there was increasing hydration is often one route to open crumb as long as you handle the dough well. The reduction in bulk rise was done to make dough handling easier. You see, when I had to transfer the shaped dough to a tray with a wet towel and roll it, then transfer it to the tray with the sesame seeds and roll it, I found that the dough felt like it was getting degassed and stretched out too long. So reducing bulk made the dough much easier to handle this much and once seeded and in the couche the dough was 16” long, the max for my baking steel. Finally to compensate for the reduced fermentation I added a 30 mins bench rest in the couche followed by my usual 30 minute chill in the fridge. The fridge time is intended to firm the dough up to make it easier to score.
I think my changes were very successful and I’m quite happy with the improvement in the crumb compared to my first set. Leaving out the commercial yeast didn’t have the negative effect that I expected in making the crust thicker nor did leaving it out make the crumb less open.

I’m not sure you could bake a bad baguette if you wanted to...

Awesome

Thank you Dan, everything I know about baguettes I learned in this thread. That is just crazy when you think about how far we have all come from our first times baking baguettes. I’m happy I was able to get the crumb a bit more open, at least it is showing me that I do have a better grasp of fermentation and developing dough than I did before baking baguettes.

Benny, please post images in the future of your shaped loaves. You are shaping some Very nice 16” baguettes.

Have you tried reversing the baguette around in an attempt to evenly shape both ends?

No I haven’t thought of flipping them around halfway through rolling, interesting idea though. My shaping really still is wonky and something that still needs some work for sure. Flipping them end to end is a good idea, hopefully I’ll remember to try that next time.

At what point in shaping do you want to see the dough? Immediately after shaping, after seeding, after final proofing before scoring?

Really nice work! Are you giving it any folds during bulk fermentation.

When I started adding a small amount of IDY to the dough I did not see much difference in bulk fermentation timing - maybe 15-20 min less time (out of 3:30 so <10%) than with levain only, but once it was divided, things seemed to speed up, which may be the continued exponential growth of the commercial yeast as it surpasses the yeast in the levain.

It reminds me that I should run the baseline formula without the IDY and see what the timing is and what happens to the flavor.

Doc, I am still doing the same two sets of coil folds during bulk fermentation. I’m still developing the dough very little up front with only Rubaud mixing after adding the salt and a bit of water to ensure that the salt is well mixed. So I’m still doing as little as possible during bulk.

The flavour of this had no apparent sourness I usually associate with sourdough leavened bread despite the fact that there was no IDY to raise it. I was expecting that the flavour would be of sourdough, but it wasn’t. I was also expecting that the crust would be thick, but it wasn’t, except for the sesame seeds of course, but really the crust was nice and thin. I was always thinking that it was the IDY that was contributing to my open crumb I’ve been getting, but I guess this bake goes against that theory. However, I think limiting bulk rise to only 20% which is the lowest I’ve gone and then “catching up” with the final proof on the bench seemed to open this up. I will have to repeat this to see if it is reproducible or just a fluke.

I have been using the aliquot with water on top. 20% increase is minuscule. Today I shot for 25% and it got away from me and ended up at 34%.

I am making the aliquot dough immediately after the dough is completely mixed. I assume that is what you and Doc are doing.

Who knows... this CB may be in it’s infants stage :-)
I am spurred on to work at this more.

I think the supreme challenge of the baguette is what drives us onward.

Benny & Doc -
Are my calculations correct in THIS LINK?

Because the first fold is 50 mins into bulk, so much later than most other breads I’ve made, I take the dough out for the aliquot jar after the thorough mix. I’ve been taking a larger amount of dough lately as I’ve wanted to do smaller bulk rises. So this dough’s dome in the aliquot jar was around 40 mL or so. This makes the determination of 20 vs 25% a bit more obvious. I think I’ll continue to take a larger portion of dough for the aliquot jar as it does make reading the rise easier. I am using your method now Dan of weighing the water, it really is easier than linear measurements.

Your calculations are correct Dan.

It sounds like you are under-developing the gluten intentionally. When I tried that, my results became inconsistent so I went to the other end of the scale and used a weak flour and fully developed the gluten and it became consistent. That probably explains your crumb appearance.

How much pre-fermented flour? Much above 15% and the sourness seems to decline for me. Less PFF = more sour bread for reasons I can't explain. 12% PFF gives me a detectably but not aggressively sour result.

Will be interested in your repeat of that data point.

How long did it take to bulk ferment without the IDY?

Yes I got that idea from Don, but also from Trevor Wilson’s book as well and have stuck with it because it seemed to be working. So I only do Rubaud mixing at the beginning and then only two sets of coil folds.

Yes these had Alan’s formula of 15% pre-fermented flour. I’ve recently made a change to my starter maintenance. I make just enough starter to bake one batard and the baguettes now per week and have about 5 g left. I now feed my starter the day before I need to make the levain for the baguettes. I think I am transferring less acid load from the starter to the levain this way. In the past the starter would have been built days before making levain and while sitting in the fridge the acidity was probably building up too high.

I actually didn’t pay attention to the time other than when doing the coil folds. Since I have been using the aliquot jar, I really have been watching the dough and not the clock so much. My impression was that it took a bit longer but not that much.

you are ALL now out-me-ing me! Don't tell me you aren't or I'll be disappointed in you folks. And I haven't yet resorted calling anyone a liar on TFL. Just take it - I don't want to hear any false modesty!

Beautiful. Benny, you had to have the talent already in your hands or you couldn't have come this far this fast.

Alan, seriously, as I said earlier, everything I know about baguettes I learned from you all in this incredible thread. I’m still amazed that I’ve been able to bake good baguettes starting off as I did with my sort of baguettes way way back. I’m very happy with what I’ve accomplished, and particularly happy with the crumb on this semolina baguette without any IDY. I really thought the IDY was giving me that crumb, I guess I was wrong.

I still do need work on my shaping, it isn’t where I want it to be, that is taking me a while to get there. I have crumb, ears and grigne, but shaping still needs work.