This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
my second attempt, or was it 3rd..?
went with a more basic formula recipe just to have less variables.
50% WW 50% AP 100% hydration levain (200g)
CY poolish 100% hydration (200g)
50% AP and 50% Bread Flour (12%) in final dough (500g)
water 250g
salt 21g
CY in final dough 2g
This is the first time in my making baguette that the dough felt right and i was able to shape them properly.
Didnt get much of bloom on the scores and only 1 ear in each of the baguettes. the crust was thin and crispy and the crumb was soft. a little bit more chew than I like. i think i'll go with more AP than bread flour next batch to see if that'll improve. i might also decrease hydration slightly to see if i can get better ears. when i was scoring, the cuts didnt hold vey well.
I'm happy with the very round cross section when i didnt even use a baguette tray. just baked on stone with a loaf pan with towel for steam.
i think the characteristics are much more like a commercial yeast baguette than a sourdough baguette. but i think i prefer that more delicate texture.
i also forgot to spritz the loaves before they went in. i hope if i do that next time i'll get more blisters on the crust.
If nothing else, and there is plenty else, this CB has been a petri dish and proving ground for an incredible amount of testing and configurations of many differing formulae. And techniques. And one thing that seems to be quite clear is that "bread flour", meaning flour labelled bread flour on the bag vs. AP is the absolutely incorrect flour for baguettes - unless another component is so weak in gluten that it needs the strength of the bread flour. Being pedantic here for a reason.
The bread flour's strength, its protein percentage, is such that it creates both unwanted elasticity and a tighter crumb. What we've determined is that we are after a softer more extensible dough where the crumb, when handled with an appropriate mix, BF and kid gloves, provides a more open crumb and a rolled out baton that will be limited, if at all, in shrinkage on the couche or in the oven. The bread flour is also responsible for the amount of "chew" in the bread.
*Mr. Hamelman refers to "bread flour" in his book - what we know is that he means white (KA) AP flour.
A lot of energy has been expended on figuring out the baguette de tradition. As I and others like to dabble in differing combinations of ingredients and flours, the "rules" are expanded a bit - but not by much!
Your dough has a hydration of just over 64%, a little on the low side for baguettes, although recent tests by doc.dough have shown a significant ability to have an open crumb at 59% hydration. But that is after many iterations of careful and controlled testing by the doc.
The shaping is good and with the exception of the scoring needing work, you have a fine finished product with a nice open crumb already.
Something you mentioned is important - the dough felt right. There is nothing like gaining the facility to read the dough with our own hands.
Keep trying and improving. The CB will eventually drift off the top of the list, but neither it nor any of us are going away. This is a pretty tenacious bunch here.
And if you are like some of this crew, the baguette bug will bite pretty hard and you'll be inclined to change your handle from ciabatta to baggie!
Thanks for the feedback Al. I think my AP must be around 9- 10% and my Bread Flour is 12%. I liked the texture and no problem with elasticity. last time i went with all AP and it was too elastic (or maybe just too much water).
I don't know if i my crumb would be considered open or not. but i see many have much larger holes and I really am not sure if that's what I want. That seems to me more like a soft and creamy texture, am i right about that? How would you guys describe the texture of the crumb you're going for?
I always think more in lines of airy, light and delicate for the crumb.
my ultimate goal is a seeded baguette that is super light and crispy and super nutty in flavor. one i had years ago from a tiny bread shop in a very small French town that i can no longer remember the name of.
-James
Wow what oven spring, they are almost circular in cross section James. Excellent 2nd or 3rd set of baguettes. Your steam set up seems to be excellent to get that spring. I totally agree with Alan, high protein flour works against the extensibility that baguette dough needs to stretch them out. I’ve settled around a 10% protein flour and I think most are in this vicinity +/- 1%.
What kind of rise did you aim for in bulk fermentation? Many of us are aiming for around 25% now, higher than this (35-40%) I found compromised the oven spring and ears.
I think you're right on, Benny. I was aiming for 25% but before i knew it. it was closer to 40%. the shaped sticks were very fragile. Not like the ones i seen posted here. Will work on that on the next set.
also what do you do with the bit of dough from the aliquot jar? do you mix it back in at shaping? i forgot to. and ended up with a extra tiny baguette.
I know some people add it back to their main dough, but I haven’t done that. I haven’t developed the small dough in the aliquot jar like the rest of the dough so I didn’t want that confusing matter when assessing the quality of the bake. Dan is keeping it adding it to the next bake as one would do with a poolish. I have mine in the fridge and depending on when I prep for another baguette bake I may actually try adding it to the next bake. I’m not sure though, is a week old dough OK to use as a poolish to add to a new dough? Is it too old and acidic?
It is just like old starter. Of course if you used commercial yeast it isn't exactly the same but should work just fine.
I have developed the practice of putting the mixed dough into my Cambro fermentation tub and putting the tub on the scale. Then tare the scale and remove 30g of dough (which is easier than putting an unknown amount of dough into the aliquot jar and then futzing with it to get the weight right). Then I can drop the 30g doughpiece into the aliquot jar and push it down one side to eliminate air bubbles, whack it a few times on my hand to settle the dough and let it sit for a few minutes to seal itself to the side walls of the container. Then I add water up to the 40ml line and base the volume growth on the 30g (assumed to be 30ml). I have observed that by the time the dough has expanded to about double (water sits close to 70ml mark) the dough badly wants to float and there is nothing I can do to stop it. But by then the top is so soft that it doesn't really poke up like a mountain above the water line and the dough by that time has been shaped and is into final proof so the utility of the aliquot jar is declined to zero.
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total dough wt
12.0% 59% 59.0% 1.8% 1725g
205 (27+69+118) levain 557 H2O 934 AP + 10 DM 19.3 salt
Make 213g stiff levain (59%) and 59% hydration autolysed flour/water (mixed at speed 0 for 6 min then kneaded a few turns to homogenize) at 40°F overnight starting at 2115
0620 mix
1496 cold autolysed flour and water (including condensation)
210g net levain
Omit IDY
19.3 salt
Mix 10 min at speed 0; final DT=64.4°F
Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 9ml H2O =39ml
1 fold @ 3:20
BF to 150% of original volume
BF time =~5:50 from start of mixing (this is probably a result of deleting the IDY)
Divide into 4 parts (425g) and preshape (7 min), rest 30 min, final shape (5 min) [first baguette pre-shaped was cut long then final shaped immediately without a pre-shape step]
Counter proof for ~4:00 (aliquot jar is now at 100ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 60ml expansion so 200% dough volume growth and dough is floating on the added water)
Retard 2:00@40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
By the time the loaves were baked and cooled, it had been 13:30 since mixing.
The crust is thin and crisp, the ears opened nicely, lots of oven spring, but crumb is again tighter than I would like it. I am speculating that it is a combination of a very stiff dough and the omission of the commercial yeast that kept the crumb from opening up during BF. There was some loss of gas when pre-shaping but not a lot, however final proof took forever and I suspect that a lot of CO2 leaked out due to high internal pressure (stiff dough) and just a long time on the bench. Two hours of retard was insufficient to add much dissolved CO2 to the dough and as a result there were no significant blisters on the surface (perhaps another effect of the long proof). Again the dough was very nice to handle and shape (quite extensible after the 30 min rest).
So on the basis of this result I will put the IDY back in and run another 59% batch in a couple of days with a little longer BF and also a longer final proof than I used last Friday (and hopefully not as long as today).
It is possible that an interesting fact was learned during these bakes. Both bakes used KAAP flour and CY only. My supply of T65 is dwindling. Bake #29 was 70% hydration and 5 grams of chocolate malt was used for crust and crumb coloring, and also an interesting note in flavor. The goal of both bakes was to develop the gluten up front via machine mixing and secondly to BF until doubling. Both doughs were aggressively degassed to facilitate efficient shaping. The thought was that even though the gas was somewhat pressed out, maybe the cell structure would become re-established during the final proof. Sadly, this was not the case. In both bakes the crumb was relatively even and closed. Bake 29 was so sticky, that an additional bake was decided upon with the hydration reduced to 68%. Here is where I think I learned a valuable lesson. Is it possible that a CY only dough is by nature stickier and more slack (than a similar SD version) because the tightening affect of the SD levain is not present? It was surprising how sticky, slack, and wet the KAAP doughs felt. It was until a number of slap & folds were performed on each dough that the dough started to behave. What a marvelous tool is slap & fold! Even though Bake 30 was 68% hydrated it was still slack and sticky.
Anyway, here are the results. Even though the crumb was not open the crust and crumb texture was very much to my liking. Crisp, thin, with a soft crumb. Flavor was fair for American flour.
The loaves at the top were Bake 29. They are easily distinguished by the dark color that was produced from the chocolate malt.
Again, the darker crumb is bake 29.
For many, failure is the price of admission that enables one to stand upon the pedestal of success...
What is the cause of the white line running essentially parallel to the crust in the chocolate baguette Dan?
benny, I have no idea. I’ve seen this before, but never figured it out. The dough was thoroughly machine mixed. Maybe the 100g of “old dough” caused it.
I kept the aliquot jar dough from last week and added it to today's dough like a Biga. The new dough will have a higher hydration over 70% probably ending up around 71% once I calculate the water added with the final coil fold. I'll be interested to see the effects on extensibility with the higher hydration. That being said, I'm once again using a new flour, this is the one from Quebec with 10% protein, I'm hoping it will be like French flour, if that is the case the higher hydration might be a problem.
Benny, how much old dough are you adding? I ask because when 100g of old dough was added to bake 29, I think the dough got too extensible.
I know that Nutritional Yeast is made from dead yeast. Wondering if the 5 day old dough had enough dead yeast to seriously slack the dough.
Interesting point, my old dough was 7 days old so may contribute even more to extensibility. But because it is at least in part sourdough, it may also contribute an acid load, depending on how high an acid load it might either tighten the dough or lead to some proteolysis and more extensibility. I only added about 42.3 g of old dough. I will say that this dough did seem quite extensible during coil folds, but I’m also using different flour so wasn’t sure it that was the “Biga” or the new flour. I’ll know tomorrow when I shape and bake.
that there was some raw flour was incorporated during the shaping phase. More likely to occur when dealing with sticky doughs where one is more apt to flour the bench to make the shaping more workable and dough more compliant.
Alan, that sounds like a logical explanation. The area of the white streak could have been formed during shaping. I’ve seen this before with the addition of chocolate malted barley. Since it darkens the dough considerably the raw flour could stand out.
Thanks for the info...
Where the CB all began. With changes gleaned within the CB.
Easy rollout and fairly good shaping, easy scoring from retard. This dough sheds a lot of moisture on the couche overnight. Dough kept extensibility at 19&20 inches. Thin crust with snap, soft crumb. But underwhelmed by grigne and only a somewhat open crumb. I understand that incorporation of some of these changes may take a few more bakes to see further improvements, but so far unconvinced that all changes are contributory to final product vs. prior to changes. We shall see.
Also unconvinced that levain doughs produce thicker crusts than CY doughs.
In my humble opinion, once the point of a reasonably fermented dough is reached, (nether under or over-proofed) there is a good deal of personal interpretation. I am a big fan of open but not very open crumb. I also like this color a lot. I also like the darker crusts. Nice bake!
but the Bouabsas from a few days earlier baked about 2-3 minutes too long and were darker than I wanted. So I erred on the cautious side yesterday.
Big open crumb never meant much to me except in a bread like a ciabatta or pan de cristal. Bouabsas also have a built in tendency toward a very open crumb. Stated so many times over the past few years. I'm also in the camp of a moderately open crumb, which is where my breads usually land. Getting the crumb to have that extreme degree of open seen in the CB was never in the playbook for me. Tight crumbs are something worth addressing.
However, as the focus in the second half the CB has been on getting a more open crumb, I joined the party. In doing so I've modified my approach to dough handling from almost the get-go. Some with a fair amount of fruition, others with no perceivable benefit. There is always still more to be learned.
I've used the word grigne to refer both to the bloom as well as the lift from the dough surface. If I'm wrong then my wife's Parisian cousins have yet to correct me.
thanks, alan
These sure support your findings that you don't need CY for a thin crust. The crust does look thin and your baguettes have your usual great ears and grigne (whatever the definition of that is).
Hello, friends.
I was a bit confused by the exact meaning of the word, "Grigne." [pronounced (more or less) la green-yeh] Here is what I was able to glean from the internet.
Gringe: In French, translates to bloom. (The way bread opens along the slashes marks.)
Ear (Oreille): Refers to the little lip of crust that pulls away from the body of the bread right along the slash marks.
Thoughts?
adjustments:
- reduces hydration from 65 to 62.5%
- replaced AP flour with “soft” AP flour
- added 2g of diastatic malt powder .3%
result:
- softer crumb
- flatter loaf
- darker nuttier crust
analysis:
- softer flour takes less water here. So my hydration adjustment didn’t do anything due to flour change. Still easy to shape difficult to score
- still not popping open at scores. Likely not enough steam and maybe over proofed. I make them skinny. And the crumb is great. I wonder if it’s already expanded all it should.
- will try to bake under cloche with a steam tray inside next try to see if that helps any. I might just need to make them girthier. And likely proof less.
Before you go nuts with devising more ways to steam. Work on what you keep coming bake too, and I assume your gut feeling. Mine looked very close to yours and they were very hard to score. Reason over proofing. If you want to be methodical, stop your bulk ferment at 3/4 of the current % of the rise. Me, I would go straight to 1/2 the current rise. Then adjust up or down from there.
Edited to add.
I would stick with 65% hydration.
Yeah. i liked the 65% hydration with the other AP flour better. though this one is a bit softer, more delicate crumb, the other had better structure. i really do think the steam will help it open up nicer.
Don't make big changes now that you have produced a loaf with an open crumb and good color. We know pretty conclusively that the crumb openness is deterimined by things that happen before the end of bulk fermentation, and that seems to be about where you want to be. That is not to say that you can't shorten it a little if shaping is causing you to lose a lot of CO2, but you are in the ball park. For each flour there is an optimum amount of water so you may need to move the hydration a little if you change flour. I use 1% malted barley flour so you can increase above your 0.3% if you need to without fearing significant adverse consequences.
Now consider the other dimensions you can control: how you divide, how you pre-shape, how long it rests, how you final shape, how long it proofs, if/how long you retard/chill before scoring and baking, how you score, oven temperature and time, and steam. That is a big list of things that all interact to impact the final result. So change one thing at a time, see if things get better (or not). Then try something else. Continue until dawn.
Remember that you are very close to where you want to be, but the terrain is complex and you are mostly working in the dark. You get one look when you slice a loaf open. Then the darkness returns.
I am actually fairly happy with the crumb. i feel decent about the shaping. bulk and final proofing time is where i am not very confident. i think that impacts scoring for me. also i cannot fit the shaped baguettes in the fridge to cold retard. who has a fridge that wide?? and mine are only 18 inches long.
i have some steam boxes i just ordered. i think they'll work great in my whole oven cloche. will be able to try that next week. i think that'll get my scoring to open better and put blisters on the crust.
thanks - james
If you are going to develop some distinctive ears you are probably going to have to reduce the hydration somewhat (at least that was my approach). 62% may be enough, but without retarding you may want to under-proof a little so that you can score without doing too much damage. It will be easier in the winter when you can just put them outside for a while to chill them down before going to the oven.
Blisters is a different phenomena. My theory is that blisters result from trapped CO2 dissolved in the dough that become supersaturated after the surface starch cooks and becomes gas tight. Then when the CO2 comes out of solution it can't diffuse to the surface and escape and just makes a blister under the now cooked surface starch. See crusticks photo below for an example of what you can do with the right process. This is another example of a way to maximize the surface area to volume ratio for bread.
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total dough weight
12.0% 59% 59.0% 1.8% 1725g
209g levain (28g seed +69g H2O +118g bread flour); 557g H2O ; 934g 10.5% AP + 10g DM + 0.7g IDY; 19.3g salt
Make 214g stiff levain (59%) and 59% hydration autolysed flour/water (mixed at speed 0 for 6 min then kneaded a few turns to homogenize) at 40°F overnight starting at 1940
Combine 1496 cold autolysed flour and water (including condensation)
209g net levain (5g net loss to bowl + scraper)
0.7 IDY sprinkled on top of levain just before mixing
19.3 salt (added during the mix after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes)
Mix 10 min at speed 0; DT=63.0°F
Then 1 min @ speed 4; DT=65.6°F (so 1 min @ speed 4 adds 2.6°F to this dough)
Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total
1 set of folds just after mix
BF to 150% of original volume
BF time =~5:00 from start of mixing (this is ~1:00 less than without the IDY so there is some speed up but not a huge amount.
Divide into 4 parts (425g), rest 30 min, final shape
Counter proof for ~3:00 (aliquot jar is by now at 100ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 60ml expansion so 200% dough volume growth and dough is floating on the added water)
Retard 1:00@40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Results:
Big holes in crumb are probably an artifact of folding strips of flabby dough during pre-shaping. I think the way to fix this is to cut the dough into more rectangular pieces and just roll them up, cinching them occasionally. Objective is a very symmetric preshaped log. I may back off on the BF just a little to make the dough easier to handle (maybe 140% vs 150% volume increase). The dough continues to expand during the post divide rest so this can be accounted for as part of bulk fermentation. A neighbor who received an uncut loaf sent a photo showing that the loaf she got had a better looking crumb than the one I chose to slice open.
Flavor was good (mild sour with lots of toasty notes from the dark bottom crust) and the crust was delicately crisp.
I think this batch has the best and most consistent scoring for you to date. No weaknesses from loaf to loaf. What seems odd though is that your crumb doesn't display the openness of previous bakes, although the neighbor's report is positive. I like the idea of an immediate post-mix fold to nurture developing strength.
"Objective is a very symmetric preshaped log." I've been preaching this for a long time. Downstream errors are often the result of earlier problems and more costly (in business) and harder to repair.
I feel like a proud "instructor", watching the students catch up to, and surpass the teacher.
Thanks Alan. Still work to do.
If I can fix the pre-shapeing today I have some small adjustments to incorporate going forward.
The plan is to slowly work up the hydration axis and the first thing I want to do is to pre-dissolve the IDY in some warm water with just a pinch of sugar and then bassinage that in after the levain and the autolysed flour have become mixed. Perhaps next, I want to switch to a 30 minute autolyse at room temperature and observe the difference. The spiral mixer really wants to do gluten development at ~60% hydration (at least stiff enough to develop substantial shear force in the dough mass) and this shows up as dough temperature increase during mixing. Your suggestion about freezing the flour, using cold water, and adding ice chips if needed is added to the tools on the belt to arrive at the desired dough temperature.
I am wondering if downsizing the baguettes would reduce the tendency of the straps to break during oven spring. The strain at rupture has historically been around 15% (higher on over-proofed dough and also on higher hydration dough), so a smaller loaf diameter would subject the surface to less strain while still supporting decent ears. It is on the list of things to try.
I really haven’t baked any other bread as much as baguettes now if you count individual loaves. My 16th set using a new 10% AP flour from Quebec, I’m hoping it’ll taste French. It certainly behaved French being more extensible, however, there were a couple of other factors that may have also contributed to the extensibility. For this set I increased hydration to 71.5% hoping to improve extensibility. As well, as per Dan’s suggestion I kept and added last week’s aliquot jar dough and used it like a Biga. The dead yeast in this may have increased extensibility. Finally I was more patient and allowed a full 30 mins bench rest between pre-shaping and shaping. In any event, I was able to stretch these to a full 16” with little to no contraction during couche rest. I again limited bulk rise to 25% in the aliquot jar.
I have decent shaping and fair ears and grigne. I wonder if the ears aren’t quite as pronounced because of the higher hydration or if the longer bench rest in between pre-shape and shaping may have allowed more proofing than expected. If the crumb is still good I might try cutting back on bulk rise all the way to 20% and allow a longer bench rest to “catch up” a bit without going too far with proofing.
You are now fully under the spell! I see that you've co-opted my favorite photo angle in the fifth image. Yeah, good grigne will do that to you. These are seemingly darker than you like them, but very much to my liking. It's getting harder and harder to lend any further insights or knowledge to you and our recent cadre.
I am wondering, with such care taken in the shaping phase and the obvious proper overlapping, what could have caused the bulging at the sides? I breathlessly await the interior composition. They really do look fabulous! I would pay $5.00 American for a 16" of this caliber!
The unsightly bulges at the sides were probably bubbles that formed during pre-shaping and shaping that I didn’t anything about.
I think next time around I will delete the Biga.
The crumb has taken a step backwards in openness with this bake, I am unsure why. One thought I have is whether the addition of the “Biga” could have affected it. I don’t think I did a good job of working it into the dough very evenly though out. If the other baguettes have the same dense areas then that is obviously not it. If this is the only baguette with that characteristic then that is what I’ll point towards.
strength, poolish for extensibility
Sorry for stealing your camera angles, but they are too good not to steal Alan.
This “Biga” though probably isn’t a standard Biga being 1 week old. I have no experience with bigas whatsoever, but this was such a small amount of dough compared with the levain or the main dough. In any event, I didn’t do a good job making sure it was worked in well enough and it may not have dispersed throughout. I certainly didn’t want the biga for strength that’s for sure.
Much like a ciabatta crumb!
How much do you guys target to deflate during shaping? i do give them a good pat down but not to the point of popping all air bubbles and i'm quite forceful on my roll and press to try to prevent large pockets.
On your next sets can you include a shot of the scored loaf if possible (i know, we try to get it in the oven asap after scoring) or maybe even a shot of par baked after steaming phase, please? That would help me out.
Also, anyone tried tangzhong in baguette?
-james
I give a pat down, but not too aggressively, this time obviously I should have been a bit more aggressive. You can really see the bulges from the larger alveoli just under the dough’s surface.
I haven’t tried tangzhong in a baguette before.
Here’s a scored photo from today.
Thanks. That helps a lot. I’m not scoring them correctly. Too straight in the middle and too close together.
I have that exact tray you’re using there. That’s what I use for loading the baguettes too.
I don’t think I can bake baguettes more than once a week. We’re just not going through them fast enough. I still have my other breads. Are you eating them all?
new steam box coming in today though and I’m excited to try them out.
Glad to help James.
Believe it or not with just the two of us in the house we are eating almost all the bread other than those loaves we bring over to friend’s places which doesn’t happy much anymore. We’ll always eat one on bake day then the other two are frozen and eaten with a meal that is usually quite light on two other occasions for dinner. The other breads I bake we usually have for lunch. I used to buy lunch at work but since I’ve been baking weekly I’ve just been eating my bread.
That oxo tray works really well for launching baguettes onto the baking steel. I bought it for that purpose and haven’t baked anything on it yet, but it’s good that it could be used for other baking.
Been there. Done that. In my experience it comes out looking like Wonder Bread. Very fine, uniform crumb.
I like the profile a lot and the color on the bake. I think the large air pockets are what kept the crumb next to them denser by taking up the space. Not denser dough or some remnant biga. The extra water created a little more unruly crumb but it is nothing you can't tame
Nice to see you keeping up the steady improvements. I checked out for a few days to visit with grandkids and I come back and everyone else seems lost in the weeds or off the rails. Dan is wrestling gluten into submission, Doc is working with bagel dough! Alan has ended up back at the starting line, and everyones crust goes snap, crackle, pop! Will is now using words that sounds like Greek to me;-) Nice to see some new baguettiers in the ranks.
Hope you had a good visit with your grandkids, family is so important nowadays.
Interesting your comment on the denser areas. It will be interesting to see what the crumb on the other baguettes show. I don’t recall having those large bulging air pockets before, but certainly higher hydration will make fermentation go faster and the dough definitely fermented faster than usual. I thought that it might have been related to the addition of the old aliquot dough, but maybe it was simply the higher hydration. I was quite happy that I was able to shape the higher hydration now without any problems. The higher hydration may also have been why I was able to get the extensibility I did today to finally get 16” baguettes.
This crumb to me is the holy grail! I really mean it these are window display-worthy, at the very least! I think I may have mentioned this before, you have a good photographic eye. The salads look quite appetizing too!
Thank you Will, that is kind of you to say. I’ll slice another baguette tonight with another miso marinated roasted vegetable salad so I’ll have another chance to examine this bake. I do like photography, but of course the best photo of the bunch was done borrowing Alan’s classic perspective.
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt total dough wt
12.0% 59% 59.0% 1.8% 1725
209g levain (28g seed+69g H2O+118g bread flour); 557 H2O; 934 AP + 10 DM + 0.7 IDY 19.3 salt
Make 214g stiff levain (59%) and 59% hydration autolysed flour/water (mixed at speed 0 for 6 min then kneaded a few turns to homogenize) at 40°F overnight starting at 2015
9 hrs later (levain fermentation time is the same as the cold autolyse time but at ~84°F):
Combine 1493g cold autolysed flour and water (including condensation)
209g net levain (5g net loss to bowl + scraper)
0.7 IDY sprinkled on top of levain just before mixing
19.3 salt (added during the mix after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes)
Mix 10 min at speed 0; DT=62.7F
Then 2 min @ speed 4; DT=68.4°F (so 2 min @ speed 4 adds 5.3°F to this dough)
Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total
1 set of folds just after mix; press dough down to uniform thickness in 5L rectangular Cambro container
BF to ~150% of original volume
BF time =~4:00 from start of mixing
Divide into 4 parts (425g), pre-shape into uniform 10" logs, rest 30 min, final shape by rolling out to 20"
Counter proof for ~1:30 (by that time the aliquot jar is at 80ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 40ml expansion so 130% dough volume growth (230% of post mix dough volume) and dough is not yet floating on the added water)
Retard 2:00@40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Results:
This was a pretty good bake. Crumb is not as open as some higher hydration loaves, but it is fairly uniform, and everything worked the way it was supposed to. Could have proofed a little longer but these are fine. I started using the aliquot jar to track volume increase during both the rest after dividing and proofing. Because the dough starts cold and CO2 production is by its nature an exponential process, it really accelerates after it gets to 120% of initial volume. Added an extra minute of high speed mixing (up from 1 to 2 minutes) to see if the gluten development was negatively impacted (it was not) and to increase the dough temperature a little (saw the same 2.6°F increase per minute of mixing that I observed yesterday). Excellent crust, nice flavor, overall very good bread. But it can be better.
The next set of experiments will increase hydration and examine a few minor points along the way. First, an effort to get the yeast off to a better start by dissolving it in some warm water with a tiny bit of sugar then bassinage it into the 59% dough and in the process raise the dough hydration to 62%. Second, move up to 65% total hydration and see how the results compare with the previous batch run at that hydration. Third, a big change to eliminate the overnight cold autolyse and observe what happens with a 30 minute room temperature autolyse (again at 65%) and the other changes that have accrued over the last few weeks. I am just about out of diastatic malt and my new supply is being shipped via USPS so we will see whether I have a batch or two without any added DM.
The weather is supposed to get really hot over the weekend and I don't want to run the a/c and the oven simultaneously so I may or may not skip a few days, but I should be through this next series by the end of next week.
I have to take my hat off to you, and the other very methodical bakers participating in the C.B. It is fun to watch how controlled and systematically, tiny adjustments are made to reach a defined goal.
Where did you order yore diastatic malt powder from? I am pretty low too and have not ordered yet. I usually get mine from Stan at the NY Baker.
I picked this one from Amazon. They happen to ship from Claremont CA by USPS which means that I get it four days before their earliest potential delivery date. It also is a Red Star product with a 12 month shelf life (though the pound I am just finishing has been doing a fine job since August of 2011). The enzyme activity level on the new bag is indicated as 60° Lintner.
I think this may be the least expensive (Barry Farms) which is the source of the last batch I purchased. But they ship from Ohio.
If you can get to a home brewer's store they likely have diastatic M.B. Twice at two different home brewer shops in Portland OR years part, I found it, and it is really fairly cheap at the source. Your shipping costs are use of shoe leather.
I will have a look at both links.
Lots of other goodies too! Too bad, I don't use enough B.M. syrup to order that 22oz!
I also order from Amazon and this is the one that I have. Hoosier Hill Farm Old Fashioned Dry Malt (Diastatic) Powder 1.5 lb. https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B008T9LX3C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_VsPuFb4A4S203
Yes it is the Canadian store, but the product I believe is US.
How are you guys storing your diastatic malt? It’s shelf life isn’t very long, can it be stored and last longer in the freezer?
Your scientific methods are excellent Doc, we are learning a lot from your small changes each time. I would have run out of flour weeks ago if I tried anything like you have been doing so meticulously. Thanks for posting all your experiments so we all can learn from them.
With NYU opening for in-person learning. My building is beginning to repopulate. That in turn repopulates the work order queue. Nothing I can't handle, but it did preclude sneaking in a midweek bake.
I decided to go back to the 75-minute bulk @ 74f I used in bake #1. I will also go back to my fumbling Hammalman, method of preshape/shape. Lastly, following Doc, I will dissolve the same .25 grams of IDY in the water and barley malt syrup mixture at 90F. I will also keep my fingers crossed. Luck does play a roll in my method of baking...Smile.
I hope to have this bake in the bank, around sunrise tomorrow.
Time for a fresh bake! Oh yeah!
Fried chicken cutlet with hot peppers, red onions, and polish mustard!
Oh that sandwich looks awesome Will. Now I’m hungry.
Here is the crumb from the second baguette from yesterday’s batch and the crumb is much better than the first.
That is very nice indeed! Random but uniform. Not quite fractal. With many of the characteristics of an English muffin.
Sometimes when things aren't working, it is better to give it a rest and come back to it. I finally have a brief pause in the action around here so I can get back to baking. I will be returning to fishing guide work soon and that means a lot of bread for boat lunches. Covid torpedoes be damned! To make up for lost time and stock up for the future I did a double batch from a single mix.
This is ready for bulk retard. The dough had risen to middle rim overnight which is more rising than I like see. I should have folded it again in the fridge last night. As a result it was very elastic and strong and fought back after being rested for only 15 minutes. The second dough was rested longer and was easier to elongate. I take the second dough out 30 minutes after the first repeat the same steps to make sure the oven is ready for them. It is easier for me than retarding the shaped ones.
The straps held together a little better for some reason this time.The lower torpedoes where from the dough that had a lot of resistance and the slender version was rested longer with less tension in the pre-shape.
Grigne from ear to ear. I was pretty pleased with this bake overall and while the flavor and crust was not on par with the french flour it was within shouting distance.
I stretched these hard enough for the bubbles to come to the surface while rolling and I did not expect the crumb to survive but it reabsorbed them and they stayed intact. Go figure
Those are awesome Don, you must be pleased. The crumb is what I always expect from your baguettes nice and open and irregular as it should be. You always get nice thin raised straps (can I call those grigne) and as such because they are so thin and delicate they break sometimes, which don’t bother me one bit. All around great bake.
I especially love the delicate ears! Tell me more about these fishing trips? I love fishing. it's in my blood. Both granddads were fishermen. I think the place I am most at peace is the Hudson canyon 100mi off the coast of NYC. Nowadays most of my fishing is from the beach.
We trout fisherman use row boats and ply clean mountain rivers with fly rods. Forty years of it and I am looking at the end of the line. It's almost exclusively catch and release so my filet knife gets little use. Fishermen are like poets they are born that way and not made.
I have to provide the lunches so they get a lot sandwiches with my bread. Three boats next week so 9 lunches a day. I could use a guy like you with your sandwich expertise.
Wow that is quite the service you provide Don, they are lucky people to get to have sandwiches with your homemade bread.
I can fish...
Bread is par excellence, as always.
Bluefish in caper sauce.
A handsome lad of science. Is that a fluke and a flounder? Just guessing, I don't know what that one in your right hand is.
I think I figured out where my inspiration for baguette shaping comes from.
It doesn't hurt that my hands are permanently cupped for shaping batons from pulling on the oars either.
Jealous of you all who fish!
Speckled pike?
Left-hand Fluke, Flounder would have the eye on the other side. I am going to guess porgy in the right hand?
Salmo Trutta for those fluent in Latin
piranha for 2 hours near Manaus in the Amazon, that was my singular fishing expedition in Aug. '65 - I know that date because "I Got You Babe" was #1 on AM radio then. Fluke or flounder, I dunno. This was out on Montauk point, at the tip of Eastern Long Island, where my father and his father would go by train back in the 30's.
This trip Originated in Montauk L.I. destination the Hudson canyon, at the edge of the continental shelf.
I am loving the view from your office window! The breaded flounder filet was added to the mix for my wife's benefit.
I was hoping to have this batch tucked in and to bed by 10:00 PM. for a 6:00 AM bake. No such luck, looking like 9:00 AM at best. I am thinking to split the workload more evenly today, by putting the dough to bed still in bulk. However, too much of a leap right now. I'm stubborn. So I'll stay up to get the baguettes shaped, couched, and into the cooler.
Boy, you guys are going to turn me into a scientist yet! At the 75 minute mark, the dough crest is slightly above the 25% mark. Now directly into pre-shape and a 20-minute rest.
The baguettes are fully shaped and put to cold ferment/proof. Time: Just shy of 1:00 AM. Looking good for a 9:00 AM bake. Timer set for 7 hours. Good night!
At the halfway mark of cool retard/slow proof, the baguettes are looking good as to strength and elasticity. Aesthetically, not my best shaping job. Fingers still crossed, I have had on occasion seen worse shaping rescued by a nice grigne (bloom) That being said, rushing the process is never a good idea.
Is the window from slightly under proofed to over-proofed really this small?
Next time you should try a retard in bulk. Get a good nights sleep and then shape, proof, and bake. Just to see if it works for you like it does for Benny and I. I also would recommend proofing seam up to help with scoring and crust. MTCW or my two drachmas worth
That will be the plan.
I am curious. What was the flour and the overall hydration?
And how much IDY was in the mix?
Gold Metal AP
65%
.25%
The crust:
The Grigne, (bloom) was disappointing for sure. That being said I was able to achieve a crisp, crackly, and well-set crust. The color is pleasing without being obviously burnt.
The crumb:
The light yellow crumb is reminiscent of hand-worked artisan bread. Nothing to complain about there.
The openness, I am more than satisfied with, considering my skill level and the relatively low hydration.
Conclusion:
There is no denying, aesthetically these baguettes are not as appealing to the eye as bake #1 & #2. That being said, my personal opinion is that the dense crumb of bake #1 & #2 is a far more glaring defect, than is the lack of bloom in this bake #3. The dense crumb is a major defect that has ramifications on the palatability of the baguette. The lack of bloom in no way affected the palatability. Therefore, I have to score this an overall improvement over the previous two bakes.
might I suggest trying 2 at a time. My domestic would see a significant drop in burst quality after 3 at a time. just a thought :)
I have observed that after adding the cup of boiling water to the red hot tray, the oven struggles to hold 450F. Then once the oven is perged at 12 minutes, the temp shoots back up, north of 500F
on my oven thread. Your oven is converting that water to steam of course that drains the heat. Unfortunately 12 minutes later is not going to help burst them. I think you right on the fringe for real popping loaves and just feel this is worth a try. also if you can raise your deck (I dont know if its in the middle or what), but the higher up the better 'IMHO'
One at a time of course
1. The same steaming method with only two baguettes.
2. Four Baguettes with only Sivias towel and sprayed dough. No flashing water to steam.
So just so we are on the same page this is a late 1990's vintage gas oven. The burner is on the bottom. That being said you still like my rack high?
Thanks again, If I feel up to it I just might whip up a batch tomorrow!
Is always a good thing. Another sandwich masterpiece. That is the business you should consider looking into. Was there adequate steam for these during the first part of the bake? They kind of look like they wanted more steam to burst fully. I will be looking forward to seeing your next attempt after retarding in bulk.
I don't think so. Same same. On opening the oven I am greeted with a face full of steam. At some point, both of these elements will come together. On that day the sky will open confetti will fall along with accolades! smile...
Nice improvement in crumb Will, I agree with you, that is more important than ears and grigne. As always, your sandwiches look amazing.
Okay, I messed something up big time today! I mixed a dough this morning same old same old. I bench B.F. till 25%
(or so.)Now here is were we enter uncharted territory. The plan was to retard in bulk, I was thinking the same 8hrs. I poped the dough into the cooler and off to shopping. When I returned, 2 hrs. later Boom! the dough is near the 4Lt. mark! New plan I shaped the Baguettes back to chill while I preheat the oven. I am thinking? I should have retarded directly out of the mixer? Who knows. Anyway news flash my old G/E range has a smaller top oven. Today I will split the load between both ovens! Nothing much to learn here. However, I will push forward! Mush!!!
What I learned today:
1. The top oven leaks steam like a Mofo! Now I remember why I stopped using it!
2. Halfing the load in the oven seems like the direction I will be exploring further.
Will, your baguette scoring has improved by a quantum leap...
That much dough will chill slower than a smaller batch. You might try folding it again after it has been in the fridge for an hour to even out the temps in the dough. It shouldn't double in the fridge. Your oven being leaky is a tough one to overcome. I thought the covered pans would help. Maybe more fine tuning will get you there.
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt batch weight
12.0% 60% 65% 1.9% 1748 net after mix
202 levain (28+68+112 bread flour) + 555 H2O + (53 H2O + 0.7IDY) + 926 AP + 10 DM + 0.7 IDY + 20 salt
Make 208g stiff levain (60%) and 60% hydration autolysed flour/water at 40°F overnight starting at 2000 (mixed at speed 0 for 6 min then kneaded a few turns by hand to homogenize before refrigerating)
Combine:
1474 cold autolysed flour and water (including condensation)
201g net levain (5g net loss to bowl + scraper)
0.7 IDY + 53g (100°) warm water + pinch sugar - mix a few minutes ahead and bassinage in at end of slow mix
20 salt (added during the mix after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes)
Mix 10 min at speed 0; mix in salt; bassinage in yeast + water
Then 1 min @ speed 4; DT=67.6°F
Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total
1 set of folds just after mix
Fold again at 2:00 (2 sets)
Fold again at 3:00 (1 set)
BF to ~150% of original volume, finishing ~4:00 from start of mixing
Divide into 4 parts (430g) and preshape (5 min), rest 30 min, final shape (5 min)
Counter proof for ~1:05 (aliquot jar is now at 80ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 40ml expansion so 133% dough volume growth and dough is floating on the added water) (233% of post-mix volume)
Retard 1:00@40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Crumb is better and ears are not a good as they have been. I think this batch was slightly overproofed, in part because it is warm here (82° in the kitchen this morning and even though the dough started out cool, it was near kitchen temperature when it was divided) and I should have put them into retard sooner so they accumulated another ~30 min of proof time while they were cooling down.
I am now routinely using Abel Sierra's approach to pre-shaping and it gives good control and it is relatively easy to produce a symmetric preshaped baguette. A 30 minute rest give enough time for the dough to completely relax so that final shaping is easy, though at 65% hydration and warm it was delicate (but from the photo it looks successful).
For some reason this batch has a more assertive acidity which is unusual for this starter. I would like to better understand how to replicate that. The flavor is excellent. I tasted the residual dough that was in the aliquot jar and it was really tangy which matched the finished baguette flavor.
Even with the one hour of pre-bake retard, the scoring was a bit ragged (which is why I judged it to be overproofed) and deflated some surface bubbles. As usual, when that happens, the ears are not good and this case made that point again. My suspicion is that this flour (at 10.5%) really wants to be mixed to a lower hydration (maybe 62-63%) so next time I will probably go there but repeat the long cold autolyse. Since the viscosity is a strong function of temperature, it may be possible to go to a little higher hydration when the weather is a few degrees cooler.
Mixing the IDY with warm (100°F) water and a pinch of sugar seemed to get it off to a better start even though there was very little IDY in the batch (0.065%).
Photos are self-explanatory
PFF levain hydration dough hydration salt batch size
12.0% 62% 62.0% 2.0% 1755
208g levain (28 + 72 + 116 AP flour) + 584g H2O + 932 AP + 10 diastatic malt + 21.40 salt
Make 216g stiff levain (62%) and 62% hydration autolysed flour/water (mix at speed 0 for 6 min then knead a few turns to homogenize) then knead in IDY and refrigerate at 40°F overnight starting at 2000
Combine:
1518g cold autolysed flour and water (including condensation)
[0.7g IDY kneaded into flour and water and included in the autolyse]
211g net levain
21.3 salt (added during the mix after 4 minutes and before 6 minutes)
Mix 10 min at speed 0;
Then 1 min @ speed 4; Dough temperature=67.0°F
Take 30g for aliquot jar. + 10 g H2O = ~40ml total
Fold just after mix (1 set)
Fold again at 1:00 (1 set)
Fold again at 2:00 (1 set)
BF to ~140% of original volume (~3:30 from start of mixing)
Divide into 4 parts (~434g) and preshape (5 min), rest 20 min, final shape (5 min)
Counter proof for ~0:45; aliquot jar is now at 68ml (30ml dough, 10ml water, 28ml expansion so about double dough volume growth and dough is floating on the added water)
Retard 1:45@40°F to make it easier to slash
Bake using BAG-STM2 oven cycle
Insights:
Reducing the dough hydration to 62% improved dough handling marginally, but the ears now are robust enough to pick up a baguette by its ears.
Incorporating the IDY into the cold autolyse had no observable impact. There was no indication when the autolysed flour and water (and IDY) was removed from the refrigerator that there was any yeast in the mix. After mixing, the dough was quite extensible, though somewhat sticky for the first two folds. The resulting dough had adequate strength after the third set of folds and was sitting high at 3:30 into bulk fermentation and the aliquot jar indicated that it had expanded to ~140% of post-mix volume. Shaping was easy though the dough was soft. 45 minutes of counter proof was enough, so I was comfortable with retarding at that point for 1:45 to stiffen them up to improve handling and slashing.
The slightly stiffer dough produced nice ears, though among the 20 slashes there are multiple examples of both good and bad. And since it was all the same dough that has to be related to an inconsistent lame operator. Maybe inconsistent blade rotation. After they were out of the oven I noticed that most of the straps had not broken which is an indication that there was somewhat less oven spring. Color is good indicating that my new batch of diastatic malt has about the same activity as the last batch.
Next I am going to shorten up the autolyse to 30 min, but incorporate the levain and the yeast (but not the salt) when the components are combined, then mix in the salt after the 30 min autolyse is finished. With the omission of a cold 10 hr autolyse, the dough temperature will be higher and I expect the bulk fermentation will want to be shorter. I will use the aliquot jar to determine when to divide (probably @140% of post mix volume).
And Alan's classic shot (to emphasize the fairly nice ears on this batch):
which can work for as well as against us. Complacency doesn't seem to be in big demand around here! The scoring is really consistent here. And the replication from bake to bake is noteworthy.
"After they were out of the oven I noticed that most of the straps had not broken which is an indication that there was somewhat less oven spring." OR, just maybe the distance between scores works out to be on the money.
Kinda cool seeing Benny & you adopting the "money shot", which I'm certain that I appropriated from someone else. To me, if ya wanna impress the neighbors and relatives, this is the photo! In fact, I have one printed out on canvas and hanging in my kitchen.
Something I'm just starting to play around with, as MT and Abel do, is to proof the batons seam side up on the couche. I don't know whether you do or not. Not advocating it as I'm just getting into the sandbox now, but worth a consideration.
When this CB is finally put to bed, anyone down the pike who can put themselves through the evolution of the crew's output on these pages, should be impressed, professional or not.
Thanks Alan. At some point in history I began to proof seam side up, more likely because I saw it in a hieroglyph than in a YouTube video, but I only think about it when I can't find a seam. That means that I have to roll the dough over, then roll it onto the transfer peel, then roll if off onto the pan, but there is a rhythm that goes with that too.
I’ve been proofing seam side up all along because I find it easier to track where the seam is that way to ensure that it ends up seam down when baking.
Your most recent baguettes look great Doc, your work on the ears and crumb is paying off.
I’ve tried everything imaginable, but often have problems finding the seams. Don’t roll them much, so you would think they’d be visible.
Since many pros couche seam side up, so do I.
I think we've chatted on this before Dan. I begin the rolling with the seam facing up, and there really is never a true roll. It is a rocking motion back and forth as the cupped hands move from center to ends. In theory - and in actual practice if I never perform a true roll around the entire circumference of the baton, then when I end, the seam is still facing up.
Sure, there is the recalcitrant stubborn kid who refuses to abide, but that is really quite few and far between.
Don’t know why I have this on-going problem. I’ve tried all recommendations. ...just don’t know.
Today, I rolled out Able’s (Benny’s version) baguettes with the seam side up. Rolled according to Alan’s instructions. Seams were barely, and some parts partly visible.
I wonder if it is the fact that I don’t use much, if any, additional flour when shaping.