This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Al - lots of talk about using IDY in making baguettes has me saying 'why not' for my next weekend bake. Can you clear the air? Should I add a bit of IDY to the original posted recipe, or only use IDY without starter/levain? Amounts, proportions? or use the recipe above in MT's post that David originally posted? Guidance please. Thanks in advance!
The only rules are there aren't any, just guidelines and observing what others have gotten away with. There's a hundred ways to do something right and probably twice as many to do something wrong.
There are a few formulae out there that use a combination of the two - a levain in combination with an IDY (or a poolish or a biga). Just a matter of proportion. For example the guidelines which I laid out way up front for the Hamelman w/WW call for a retard of 12-16 hours). The Bouabsa calls for a retards of ~21 hours. The Bouabsa uses the minuscule 0.16% IDY as its only leavening agent, and look at what the heck it does!.
Sure, add away, to this formula f you wish, but be very judicious in how much you add. If the thought is to convert from a levain based bread to an all IDY, then keep in mind that commercial yeasts are more potent than levains when it comes to rise. Can I suggest how much to use? Maybe, but it would likely be just as much of a swag but keep the IDY to no more than 1.0% .
Or you could sub out the levain for a poolish and get the benefit of both a commercial yeast as well as a preferment.
Ok, I think I'll go the starters-anonymous route and try the non alcoholic IDY version. Let's see what shall be.. stay tuned.. next weekend I suspect..
PS. I just thought - do people slap and fold with IDY? Is that a dumb question? I just thought why not, but then thought maybe it's not something you do.. I don't pay attention to IDY recipes so don't know.. just curious..
That is how I develop my IDY pizza crust. I mentioned earlier, I enjoy the one handed version S&F for a dough this small.
It's just another way of mixing, so sure. With very few exceptions, which beg for a mechanical mixer - like ciabatta or trying to incorporate a 90% biga dough, or a dough with a large percentage of grated cheese, etc. All other dough I mix is with FFs/S&Fs.
(it's how I release the emotional tension of the day after being asked dumb questions ?). I grew up all my pe-adult years afraid to raise my hand for fear of asking a dumb question, and missed out on a lot that I was curious or unclear about. That changed in adulthood. A 180. At work I sat in on a ton of meetings where I knew the answer but also knew others in the room either weren't going to ask the question or didn't know the question to ask, or the chair forgot to mention it. So I'd ask it, and the chair was clear on what I was doing since we worked closely together. I wouldn't say there are no dumb questions because we've all lived through doozies, but this wasn't one of them.
Not something to be on the receiving end of. The ease of assembly is a lot of the appeal. I often make a batch to throw in the oven after baking other breads because the stone and oven are already hot. Yes the 21 hours is not a strict requirement but controlling the bulk rise is since they rely mostly on oven spring. The crumb on these was not as open as normal and the optional fava flour did not deliver the goods this time but the wheaty flavor that the process extracts from white flour is nirvana. Using the same method and including a levain is a nice way to take the flavor further for those that need to keep their starter happy.
.. you have "mad skills".. wow.. Those look perfect - waiting for the crumb shot. How much did each weigh? Great score, colour, shaping and development.. very nice!
Was not as open as usual and this one got a little mashed in the center. It is a somewhat delicate dough when pushed to the 75% water. They scale out at 290gr and ended up just short of my 17" stone. If you try this recipe keep the dough from doubling and the proof is not long because they rely mostly on oven spring.
The crust shatters when you cut them. Maybe could have rested or proofed these a little longer.
Thanks! Nice crumb just the same. Olive oil, fresh tomatoes, fresh basil, sea salt - I can taste it now!
is where some of these will end up. Pesto, tomatoes, parmesan, maybe some basaltic vinegar for spice.
Don, have you noticed that early on in the bake the ears rise high, but as the oven spring continues they become somewhat “absorbed” back into the loaf? In other words, the scores are overtaken by the rising dough from the oven spring.
Also, since the Bouabsa is bulk retarded, did you find the dough at shaping more extensible? It seems thelong rest would have facilitated that.
Thanks for the scoring image.
Alan, should we err on the more shallow or more deep side when slashing. I realize dough characteristics dictate thta also. Is it generally easier to raise a shallow ear or a deeper ear?
and the lack of a fully developed gluten make them not fight back. I have overworked this same recipe and they can be quite elastic. As Doc said earlier it is a delicate dance.
As a general rule, the stiffer the dough, the deeper the slash need to be.
I like the bulbous grigne and the well developed ear but this dough seem to rip apart sometimes from the oven spring.
A slash is just a slash
A score is just a score
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.
The difference between a shallow score and a deep one could be no more than perhaps 1/8th to 1/4 inch deeper.
As far as scores go, this is my take, probably nothing uniquely mine (or Id' be darned disappointed). High hydration doughs naturally have a greater amount of water relative to the flour than low hydration doughs. And water weighs more than flour, volumes considered. therefore a deeper but less angled cut from a score may well be more prone to flapping closed from the weight of the water contained. And therefore that is why I believe the sharper angle is recommended.
I think that if one creates a good taught skin from surface tension without constricting or mangling the eventual crumb, then even a shallow score will be sufficient as the gasses inside push outward.
Whether I go shallower or more straight on my scores, I never try to insert the blade tip more than (I just measured to be sure) about 1/4 inch. Which seems so small - except when you hold a tape measure up to the blade and see for yourself.
The absurdly gassy dough I tried yesterday - it didn't make a whit of difference because the dough was so over-active and the surface tension was too "mellow".
In summary, and this is just another SWAG, the same depth is my take, just how that depth of blade is applied makes a difference. Of course, to be clear, we're discussing just scoring baguettes here and certainly does not apply the same across the board for all dough and treatments.
- or more work required! Much to learn:
It looks like baggies are a tough nut to crack!
Lance
Were you thinking, “Bloomers” when scoring? ...just messing with you.
Baguettes are so different from other breads I hope you give these dreaded beast another go.
Calling my buddy at Pleasant Hills Grain tomorrow about the mixer. The hook is almost set.
Danny
I feel like a rookie baker! I might give them one more chance!
Oh and add overproofed to the fault list.
Lance
to the party Lance. I found some fava beans at the local Natural Food store. They were not the flat wide ones but a small round version that sounded like popcorn popping while going through my MockMill 100. It had the same yellow look as the BRM Garbanzo/Fava but didn't produce the same results.
Your crumb looks good just rotate the peel 90 degrees the next time you score them ;-)
imperfect shaping and one can still get a good looking baguette. But the scoring is the unforgivable part of the equation. You should look at what MT and my baggies look like before hitting the oven to give you a clear sense of what we do vs. what you did. Also, review the short sections of video at the top of this whole dang thread. And then there's David Snyder's scoring tutorial on TFL to help.
I will say that if there's any rookie mistake to baguettes, you fall right in line with the majority of beginners.
Nice looking crumb, and that will take you far. And if they're not looking A-1, just cut them into rounds and serve them that way. No one will ever be the wiser.
Hey Dan and MT - I think that we just hooked another fish on the baguette line! The bait must be incredible!
Like Atlantic Salmon was to fishing. The Sport of kings and the King of bread. Nothing more eye catching in the bread world to me. The look is what attracts the fish. I don't want to go down the phallic symbol path, I will leave that to the shrinks. Some see us flyfishers and bagueteers as effete but if we can spread the craft and share some fun let's roll with it.
I mixed up a batch of dough at 67% hydration 11.7% pre-fermented flour, 2% salt, using 100% high gluten white flour. But did a couple of things differently:
1. stopped mixing as soon as the dough came off the bottom of the bowl
2. after ~40 min of BF I split the batch into two parts and finished a 1 hr BF on one half and a 2 hr BF on the other half.
But since they came from the same batch, the proof times were going to be different. In this instance I over-proofed both of them. The biggest difference is in the crumb. The first photo below is the short BF (60 min) loaf; the second photo is the baguette that had a 2 hr BF. The dough was shapped into 300g baguettes and proofed. The first batch proofed for ~2 hr before baking. The second batch was shaped into 300g baguettes as well and was proofed for about 90 min (for equivalence it should have been 1 hr but the oven was busy with the first batch). Oven cycle was 500°F w/ steam for 6 min then 450°F with the steam generator off for an additional 11 min. Crumb texture is good, crust is typical sourdough crust (well toasted, fairly thick, crunchy, flavorful). All baguettes were shaped to ~20" lengths, (constrained by my 21" pans).
So next time I will use the 2 hr BF and shorten the proof time, but I may also reduce the dough temperature. The dough was quite extensible and handled easily, was very easy to shape but was so extensible that it was hard to get a uniform diameter, and was floppy when transferring to the pans. It would have benefitted from being retarded to slow down the proof somewhat and I suspect that chilling them would have made it easier to handle when it came time to transfer to the pan.
The thing that surprises me is the irregularity of the hole sizes in the crumb of the short BF batch. Anybody have an idea why?
I am confounded by how open the crumb the crumb is with 67% in the first place. It doesn't lineup with my reasoning that open crumb is related to hydration. I haven't worked with high gluten flour much and was under the impression that it required more kneading to develop fully. To venture a guess in this riddle is a step through the looking glass into wonderland. Maybe the longer fermentation filled in the gaps in the dough or it was a shaping issue. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.
These are the two that didn't get sectioned (both from the long BF batch). As you would expect for over-proofed baguettes that were too soft to score by somebody with a new lame who rarely uses an interrupted slash. Good oven spring, just not enough tension to get the surface to fracture. Soft dough was impossible to straighten out once it hit the pan so sort of wandering from side to side. Just a little bit of an ear at one end of both loaves but nothing you could use to pick them up with.
Anything I missed? Or different approaches to fixing the defects?
When I occasionally fail to have sufficient surface tension and/or over proofing, the scores may spread flat as yours have. For those unfamiliar at rolling our a full length baguette, including me, there is at the added challenge to getting a consistent full roll across the length of the baton.
The main inconsistency in the crumb seems to me to be where the batons are pinched, and from an over proofed crumb structure and/or a heavier hand while rolling which compressed the dough in the upper photo. If you work mainly with boules and batards, this is not the same occupational hazard as with batons.
You refer to a high gluten flour which should give the dough more elasticity rather than your stated extensibility. A standard French baguette typically weighs in at 350g-380g before baking, so your lighter weight may have contributed to the difficulty in getting a consistent shape down the barrel of the baton.
You certainly have the scoring in "lane" and overlap correctly and your 2nd baguette in the Delta Time post has great open crumb at ay hydration, but especially for a 67% dough.
When you say "hit the pan" are you referring to moving from couche to oven peel with a hand peel/flipping board? If so, the hand peel in combination with the open hand is an excellent way to get the baton to straighten before oven loading.
Dough was warm, kitchen was warm, I was doing other things in parallel. Was not uncovering and checking the shaped loaves and there was not much flour on the couche so when the time came to transfer to the pan, the loaf was a little difficult to separate from the couche, then that sticky line made it impossible to slide the loaf off the transfer peel and I had to almost invert it to get it to fall onto the pan so now essentially stuck to the pan there was not much I could do to slide it sideways to line it up. I felt pretty good that it wasn't worse, but the impact is certainly visible in the end result. I don't use parchment paper as an intermediary. The dough sits on the pan for about a minute after being brushed with water and then a sprinkling of kosher salt which the water helps to hold in place so that it doesn't blow off in the oven. When the oven indicates that it is hot and the steam generator has filled the oven (which is more a measure of the boiler water temperature than anything else), I slash the loaves, reverse the pan, slide it into the oven and shut the door.
I will go with a little larger loaves next time, probably 345g to get close to the same dough weight per inch of loaf that Danny achieved, and probably adjust the pre-shape to get a little closer to final size and reduce the need to stretch too much more on final shape.
I am happy with the 17 minute oven cycle and the resulting color/taste.
So a few adjustments and some retard time during the last part of proofing to stiffen up the dough before it is slashed. So we will see sometime later this week.
Are you open to using parchment? I don't have a picture at this time but I've gone a little OCD on this....I've been taking a piece of parchment longer than the length of the dough and creating a crease in the center. I hill it up in the middle like you would a couche. I place one on each side and fold the sides up over the dough and then into the couche. When I bake, I carefully move the parchment until it flattens. Everything stays neat and straight.
But now no longer bake on tile or stone and find it to be an expensive and now unnecessary addition to the process. If I stay focussed it is not an issue. I know better so I take a dope slap and start again.
Took me a week to get around to it but glad I did. I made a few mods to the formula and process:
Otherwise stuck to the challenge. Nice crust, good flavor.
Crumb a bit tighter than I would like, though I have yet to open one of second batch which proofed for an extra 45 minutes. Tastes great, though. Have not had a lot of experience at sub 75% hydrations but I’m encouraged to try more. This dough seemed very easy to handle. I’ll add this formula to my repertoire where Gosselin and Bouabsa (thanks to @dmsnyder) have been my gotos for baguettes & epis.
Thanks, Dan and Alan, for organizing and shepherding...
Phil
Most traditional baguettes hover around the upper 60s for hydration with plenty of room for experiment above the 70 mark. Whether folks are sticking to the posted formula or not, as long as it is close, this is a really tasty crisp crust bread for those whose whole grain "requirements" are not that high.
I love the color of the dark bake. And scoring shows super promise.
alan
Phil, I don’t know your total flour weight, but 2 pre-ferments totaling 746g seems like it would have produced a very extensible dough. Did you find the dough very stretchable when shaping?
I had some trouble with maintaining a consistent circumference on final shape. Frog in a snake’s gullet—lumpy kind of thing... Thought I saw another mention of it upstream of here. Scoring was tres simple.
WOW! 9 bakes. Some people get it right away, and others learn quite quickly. But for those of us that struggle, persistence is the driving force that leads us on.
Used Alan’s take on Hamelman’s SD Formula, but tweaked the whole grains, 83% KAAP, 10% Hard Red Spring Wheat, 5% Spelt, & 2% Fava Beans. Each of the 4) 440g loaves were baked individually. The idea here is to try different baking variables (oven & steam settings, etc..
Settings shared by all 4 bakes
550F for 10 minutes, 550F w/convection for 7-10minutes
Dough was retarded approximately 24 hr.
NOTE - Bake #1 is on the bottom and #4 is on the top.
Bake #1
Pre-steam 90 seconds of injected steam
1.5 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - steam pan was inverted over the dough positioned 2 slots above
90 seconds of steam injected after loading
Bake time - 17 minutes
Bake #2
No injected steam
3 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - No inverted steam pan
Paint dough w/water after scoring
Error - Forgot to turn convection of for the first 5 minutes of bake
Bake time - 16 minutes
Bake #3
2 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - no inverted pan
Dough was not painted w/water
No injected steam
Blocked of top oven vent attempting to hold more steam
Bake time - 17 minutes
Bake #4
Pre-steam 90 seconds of injected steam
1.5 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - steam pan was inverted over the dough positioned 2 slots above
180 seconds of steam injected after loading
Blocked of top oven vent attempting to hold more steam
Bake time 17 minutes
Only 1 loaf was opened, the other 3 were given away. I’ve baked so many baguettes, I fear I may be running out of eaters. Believe it or not, baguettes are not a favorite of mine or my wife. But the challenge is a great one...
Your skills are on fine display. Your shaping has always been good, your scores are precise, your fermentation is mostly on point, at least wanders no more than the rest of us and now a nice appealing COLOR! I like the bakes with the pan above best. Did you back off the 550? Fava? Is that what they are bitin' on? It's supposed to open the crumb and improve oven spring with a whitening affect on the crumb. We shall see when you filet that trophy.
My new stone that arrived today is going through the new stone drying bake. I am thinking about placing my old stone on the top rack to radiate some heat back down. Perhaps something you might think about to temper the top element going on and off throughout the bake in your oven.
Look forward to seeing the crumb. I am betting on #1
Don, the oven temp was never lowered. I wanted to bake them hot and fast.
I don’t have enough experience with baguettes, but the Fava Beans didn’t appear to make a difference. I mill the dried beans into flour.
Albacore sent me THIS EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of highly extensible dough. I have Nutritional Yeast on order. I’ll try most anything once.
Feed some IDY with a bit of sugar and water. Let it run to exhaustion, then heat it to 160°F to kill the yeast. Use the resulting liquid in your dough. But be careful. It is a powerful reducing agent and you can get really slack dough if you use too much. A slow oxidizer such as ascorbic acid will correct it over a period of time but you have to match the quantities and before you ask, I do not have a table of equivalents. I have a supply of 500mg L-cysteine capsules that I break open if I need a little, though I don't remember using any since 2011.
Your timing is great, Doc.
Yesterday I rec’dTHIS Nutitional Yeast and I read that is has glutathione!
” Nutritional yeast contains the antioxidants glutathione and selenomethionine, both of which can help protect your body from chronic diseases caused by oxidative stress.”
Lance, aka Albacore sent me A LINK that blew me away. Talk about extensible. He also turned me on to Fava Beans. I Tried 2% Fava Beans last bake, but didn’t notice a difference, but I could have missed it.
I will try the combination...
They look very nice. I was wanting to play with steam- excited to see what happens when you open them up.
My theory is that if you throw enough dough at it, eventually you get it right! I have yet to prove that, of course.
would be a welcome addition to just about any Parisian restaurant table. Just about all around goodness. Symmetry scoring, shaping. These have it all. If I had to grab one and take off with it, my choice based on looks alone would be #1.
When does the student become the teacher?
alan
I'm afraid I'll be sent to the principles office for cheating after posting this. It goes down the IDY train pretty far. But the hydration was right- 75%- and I wanted to see what would happen. And I had 6 day old dough in the fridge.
This is the master dough formula by Jeff Hertzberg, MD and Zoe Francois from the Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day series. It is mixed, left to rise and just fall and then refrigerated. Shape from retard, brief rise and bake. Say what you want about it...but the ability to have pizza or rolls or whatever on the table in an hour has a place in my home.
680 g lukewarm water, 10 grams idy, 17 g salt, 910 g ap flour
This was my old Morbread flour so the crumb is soft and squishy but still...not bad in under an hour.
subway" my mother used to say), the point of the CB was less about adherence to the proffered formula and more to try and hook folks like you to come on board and enjoy the ride. The point is less to adhere to the rules (of which there aren't any) but rather to explore and widen one's baking horizons. To coax the servants at the altar of the humble bread to leave their cave and Dutch Oven behind.
With just about every bake of yours we're seeing improvements, and if it weren't for the CB, you might be wondering what it must be like to bake a baguette. Or maybe wondering what time dinner is served ;-) .
As mentioned way way up in this thread, it is generally a two step forward, one step backward process for those like Dan and you that have the gumption too improve.
alan
Not baguette crumb, but for sandwich breads it would be very nice. I own Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes. As you know the book is about the convenience of mixing a large dough and having it available to bake breads during the week.
The even crumb is indicative of over-fermentation. Love the taste of over fermented bread, especially sourdough!
” so the crumb is soft and squishy”. I like soft and squishy, maybe I ought to over ferment some dough and give that a try. We learned during this CB that CY makes a softer bread.
Jen, your interest in experimentation is a welcomed asset to the forum.
Stated the answer to Doc Doughs crumb riddle in his last post above. The shorter bulk produced the open crumb when logic dictates otherwise. The more we learn the more we realize how much we don't know.
My more open crumb came with the longer (2 hr vs 1 hr) bulk fermentation. At some point I will do a three way split of a single mix and BF for 1, 2, 3 hrs (or 1.0, 1.8, and 2.6 hrs) and characterize the results. There is clearly some cell consolidation that takes place during bulk fermentation. Need to get a sample on the far side of optimum to know there is a local min/max in between. Does shaping want to happen before or after consolidation has begun? Of course the part about "all other things being equal" is the tricky bit to control.
There is a reason the nobles demanded white flour and the use of it is so common now. Flavor. I was a reluctantly coaxed into whole grain baking because it meant leaving behind that pure flavor.
My pizza dough is basically that method with 70% water. On the second day in the fridge I divide it and ball it up so pizza can happen any day of the week. I use ADY for that job because I learned it has a slower but longer lifespan. I wonder if a pre shape letter fold and then a thinner shape with a longer proof would open up the crumb more?
Cest la vie say the old folks. It goes to show you never can tell. Maybe I should have put these in the lead off spot in the baton order. I finally got around to the recipe for this CB last because I am a yeasted baguette devotee. The crust and the less lively dough which is not as fun to work with just never yielded a very good stick for me. Well my dogma just got run over by my karma so to speak.
I used the basic recipe 675 total dough with a 5% of the whole wheat swapped out for a more white flour so 20% instead. The leavain was an overnight that was all whole grain at 100% hydration. I planned to up the hydration to the limit but that ended up around 75% anyway and to bake it straight through with my usual short mix and a couple of coil folds. Life intruded after 3 hours of the bulk so I tucked it in the fridge. Got home after 4 hours and pulled the dough out and let it sit for an our before dividing and letter folding this time seam down. I shaped a rather loose and lifeless dough about 40 minutes later and turned the oven to 500 with my new Fibrament stone in place. The dough had shown some growth after a 45 minute proof and the scores went ok but I was not optimistic about the outcome. They went flat in the oven but started to show some spring and the cuts opened so maybe all was ok. They came out looking better than hoped not a lot of growth and I was expecting a dense crumb.
The crust wasn't light but it was crisper than expected but the crumb!
The crumb was unlike anything I have ever produced with sourdough baguettes.If the results are because of my new stone that has been named "Third rock from the sun" after the Jimi Hendrix song. I am sorry I didn't get it sooner. I think I just got lucky but my faith in the SD baggie has been restored.
The Other One
What are the holes for? Show? No PB&J
Natural light bleaches out the whole grain. The crust had a beef jerky like quality to it today but another day under wraps should meld it in in with the crumb.
All the good things to say. Someday you'll have to teach me how to get an open crumb like that!. I can get some baguettes under 70% hydration to display open crumb, but this, and Doc Dough's recent foray, are in a separate universe, with Dan on your tails.
Bravo, and welcome to the joys of levain baking.
alan
As long as you were referencing J.H., here is a quite unique cover from that same first album by one of my heroes.
As a preeminent goal but it leads to disappointment more often than not. I suppose it is that delicate dance between gluten development and fermentation that doc mentioned. I used a weak off brand bread flour for this bake and it never showed any clue that the crumb would end up like this. I did do about 10 S&F but minimal effort because the flour was sticky and wanted to tear rather than smooth out. I have to say that the flavor and texture was the least favorite of all the others because it was all crust and no crumb and just a little off. I am thinking the massive new stone puffed these up like pancake batter. The shaping was with minimal rolling and clumsy because it kept sticking so I just tried cinching in some tension like the gal in the video I linked to earlier. At least my new stone has some good mojo on the baptismal bake. That’s life. Back to work
But I could be mistaken. The retard takes some time to chill bulk dough (as opposed to shaped loaves which have a shorter maximum dough thickness) and 4 hrs at even an unspecified refrigerator temperature should be enough to stabilize it. And during the cool down there continues to be yeast and LAB activity in the dough so the BF is effectively a couple hours longer than the stated three. The result at that point is a dough that you thought too stiff to shape? So you waited an hour for it to warm up somewhat but that is not enough time for it to fully come back to room temperature - so I am going to guess that the center of your dough was still below 60°F when you shaped, so less viscous but not really soft. Letter folds provide a gentle shaping that doesn't collapse the cell structure so you continue to preserve what the long BF developed and subsequent chilling did not destroy. Very much following Trevor Wilson's guidance to not do anything to damage good open crumb potential.
I suspect that the new stone had little to do with your results, but we humans are built to detect correlation and assume causality. We also rarely go back to verify an assumption that was apparently supported by a single experiment even if there were many changing variables. So this is a case where I for one would like to see you repeat the process but use your old stone as the only thing that changes.
It would also be a great idea if a few others here would take a run at it in their kitchen with their flour, mixing technique, refrigerator, stone, steam generator, and oven. But to do that we really need a more complete ingredients list and process description - which only you can provide :-)
As a lack of luck would have it, I have two batches of dough that unexpectedly had to be retarded pre-shaping, exactly like this. I'll be interested to see if I get a similar effect.
Life through me lemons yesterday but I was trying to compare same dough, different mixing lengths. Oh well. That'll wait for another day.
It is interesting how happy accidents happen sometimes.
They were small diameter and almost popped up like bread sticks( Gressinsi ) is the reason I said the stone baked them. The recipe I used was Alanso's last one White flour was 80% Big J Golden loaf bread flour 15% winter wheat berries and 5% rye berries milled and used for overnight levin( I am never again fighting autocorrect with that word) 100% hydration that was 16% total prefermented flour. It was used in the fermentolyze 10 hours later. 20 minutes added the salt and 10 more gr of water. short mix rest 10 then some mixing and 10 slap and folds dough. It was very loose and sticky. Big J doesn't take water like other bread flour and seems more like AP. I did two coil folds in the first hour and it rose maybe 25% total in the bulk. The dough never had any strength and I had to handle it with velvet gloves in zero gravity. It didn't want to roll so I cinched it in place by using a few 2 handed palms up karate chops under the dough. Not something I normally do. They were not difficult to score and I baked them at 480 for 22 minutes and put them on the top rack with the oven off and the door cracked to get more brown on top because they didn't want to darken.
I am a believer in science but I am still an illiterate in the science of sourdough. I get by solely on repetition and intuition. I believe you are correct in your ventured guess as far as the bulk fermentation. They were on the verge of over proofing and were rescued by intense heat is how I see it. I nearly fainted when I cut them open
You and Benny are turning out show piece crumb shots. I hope we don’t loose you two to Instagram :D
I have a set of shaped baguettes retarding now. BF the dough a little longer in hopes of better crumb. We’ll see...
I see like you that the long and thin look is not only appealing but they bake up better with more relative expansion. I may go for the end loaded smaller ficilles (flutes) to get a more practical bread and that requires less special packaging. Maybe even 5 wide on the new stone. Thanks for the recommendation on the stone. The standard size 15"x20" fit perfectly
Awesome baguettes Don, the crumb and crust are amazing. The crumb is so open and you have your usual amazing ears.
After falling down a rabbit hole for 2 consecutive bakes, I had to find some comfortable footing. Following instructions on two different YouTubes about French Baguettes, and both were severely over proofed. For example yesterday's bake had me build a 115% hydration poolish. The instructions for it should have been the tipoff. My choice of either the countertop for 10 hours or the refrigerator for "overnight". There was no correlation to these two choices.
Anyway, the salvation was good oven spring and crisp crust on both, and the first, levain version had a lovely sweet taste. But it is hard to get these to brown enough.
Last night I went back to the Weekend Bakery Pain Rustique formula. With no intention of making it "rustique", as I also didn't do three years ago. it is a strange formula in that the poolish, containing 50% of the total flour, was part WW and also uses a small dollop of levain rather than IDY to get it going. Low hydration of 65%, it doesn't open up a lot but is another nice crisp crusted bread.
Another shot of how the dough was scored/
Here are two of the three from the over proofed last bake.
The color as always is outstanding.
Your scoring seems to lap more than most instructions. Some say an inch over lap, other 1/3. Your scores are proof, they always look exception.
Happy Canada Day! To celebrate I started a double batch of baguettes yesterday and just pulled them out of the oven. I decided that I wanted to try an almost all white flour recipe since white flour baguettes are what remind me of Paris most. I used Abel’s recipe that Alfanso kindly posted here.
I added a small amount about rye to the levain build but otherwise followed the recipe. Edit - I actually also dropped the hydration to about 70%. The rye was 2.5% of the flour. Because I cannot cold retard six baguettes in my fridge I decided it would be interesting to see the difference when cold retarding shaped baguettes vs. unshaped until after cold retard. However, because I cannot bake six baguettes at once, the shaped baguettes went into the oven after 13 hours of cold retard. The second three were shaped after 13.5 hours of cold retard and then placed back in the fridge until the oven, baking steel, cast iron skillet and Silvia towel were back up to 500ºF. Oh because I forgot to drop the temperature from 500ºF to 480ºF at the start of baking the second set, they baked at 500ºF until halfway after removing the steaming gear.
Because I didn’t weigh the dough when I divided, the first of baguettes were larger and didn’t fit well on my cookie tray or baking steel. The second set fit much better. I think for my set up 280-290 g per baguette is optimal.
Oven spring seems pretty good especially on the second set. There are a bit of ears on some. The crumb will tell the story I guess.
Now the second set, I forgot to take a photo after scoring these, but I think scoring was a bit better as I did each score faster, I need much more practice. I also forgot to brush off the excess flour prior to scoring.
Benny
Here’s the crumb on one of the first set with the shaped cold retard. I’m liking the flavour more without as much whole wheat and the crust is fairly thin and crisp. My favourite hybrid sourdough IDY baguette for flavour and texture so far.
Benny - we are accumulating evidence through many distributed formula variations during this CB that seem to be pointing to some sort of consensus. You last run seems confirmatory. Well done!
Thank you Doc. I think the crumb on the set that was shaped after cold retard is better than those shaped before cold retard. Of course the shaped after cold retard set had more time in cold retard which for my fridge I had down to 2ºC.
Here’s the crumb from the set done prior to cold retard.
Here is the crumb from the set shaped after cold retard.
I like the crumb on the retard in bulk ones better. You can just use the same basic Bouabsa method with sourdough added.
The shaping only improves with practice. Long and thin is currently in! Nice job on the fermentation and hybrid use.
Thank you Don. I guess if I compare the two sets, because of the greater dough mass the cold retard in bulk set took longer to cool in the fridge and continued to ferment. This was definitely the case because they were more challenging to shape. I still have challenges while shaping trying to get just the right amount of flour on the dough in order to prevent sticking but not so much that there isn’t any friction to allow elongation. I suspect many more bakes are needed to get this right. My 4th set of baguettes were thinner, I’m going to have to try to get that shape next time.
Even 1/4 tsp of yeast needs to be put into the barn before it gets to a full gallup. As Abel in his succinct way stated keep the dough in the low 70's so it doesn't get too strong. Someday you should try the Gosselin baguette that is mixed with ice water. It has an amazing flavor but shaped in a ciabatta kind of way.
Don
I agree that the smaller surface area to volume ratio for the "retard before shape" batch delays cool down and allows some additional fermentation. But once the dough reaches 4°C, there is VERY LITTLE additional fermentation. A 2°C setting gets it there marginally sooner but serves as some protection from opening the refrigerator door for other things.
Your comment about getting the right amount of flour on the dough is a good observation, and I have never seen a good tutorial on what it should be or how to do it. There is a HUGE difference between working on unfinished hard maple, stainless steel, granite, Corian, cloth, or an inverted Silpat/silicone baking mat (which is what I use). And it is super important that you get it right because you can't shape well if you don't have the right friction between the dough and the surface it is being shaped on. Watching somebody shape on a surface that does not match what you are using is almost useless from a training/learning perspective. Now throw in all the different variables that affect the dough handling experience (flour/flour mix, dough hydration, bulk fermentation time and temperature, dough temperature, and of course whether you flour or wet your hands) and the combinations are too many to teach individually. So this is an area where we are left to discover for ourselves what works, and since you don't know yet what it feels like when you get it right, you have no sense of what you are doing wrong or how to correct it. No wonder so many folks give up.
You can see how different each baguette is from each other. On a couple I think I had the right amount of flour and was able to elongate well. On a couple I did experience the sticking and then on a couple more a bit too much flour and the dough not having friction and just moving without rolling under my hands. I have quartz countertops and I’m not sure if they are stickier or less sticky, but it seems that most professionals use wood.
Never consciously gave a lot of consideration to the counter surface and it’s affect on shaping, especially baguettes. When friction is lost, the flour is removed and a very light spritz (tiniest amount) of water is applied. Mine is Corian, but I like the idea of trying a Silpat mat. It is pretty “sticky”.
Of course a very light spritz of water, didn’t even consider that, good idea Dan. I have a Silpat mat and also a largish maple board. Would you consider both to be sticky or just the Silpat? Is the maple board less sticky than a quartz countertop?
Never shaped on any kind of wood, Benny.
Any polished surface (stone, plastic, or metal) will be "stickier" than wood that has a thin coating of flour. The issue with the polished surface is that it is nearly impossible to lay down a uniformly thin layer of flour. And flour will stick to bare wood just fine. So try it both ways and see what you are successful with. There is no "right way", just what works for you.
I may have to try the wooden board, it is a decent length, but I wish it was a bit wider.
Put a couple of drops of water on your squeeky clean Corian countertop and put the baking mat smooth side down over the wet spot and pat it down. The silicone is now effectively stuck to the counter and this works equally well for any smooth surface (Corian, granite, marble, or quartz). Then put a little flour on the back (what is now the upward-facing surface) and spread it around so that the irregularities defined by the encapsulated fiberglass mat hold it. Now you can turn out your dough and use a bench knife to divide it into the desired size. Pick up a dough piece and toss it onto a floured couche to get some flour on the cut face or put it on the scale with the already-floured side down. I usually put a line of bench flour along the back edge of the mat so that I have some immediately available when I need it.
Doc, I’ve got a few Silpats, but none of them have a smooth side. Please send a link to the mat.
Silicone baking mat
This one is from Bed Bath & Beyond.
The smooth side of a Silpat is the side with the printing on it.
The back is a slightly different texture.
I have Silpat baking mats, I may have to try a few things or just continue to use my countertop and figure out the best way to get just the right amount of tackiness without too much or too little flour.
Benny - very very well done. Those look amazing!
Thank you Frank, nice to achieve a good crumb.
You knocked that baby out of the park... Everything looks gorgeous to me.
That crumb would have the Instagrammies drooling.
Everything here looks wonderful, especially the crumb. The final part of the puzzle is to figure out how to get your scores to grigne and rise up above the surface of the baguette. You are a stellar student!
Thank you Alan, I am learning with the group here and have everyone who has contributed their time to thank.
Yes the ears, this is just like last year when I was trying to get ears on my batards. It came down to structure, tension, fermentation and scoring, did I leave anything out? I guess it will be the same here. I’m leaving out the baking because I think I have the steam working given the oven spring these were able to achieve.
Benny - for some reason I had not noticed (or you had not mentioned) that you use a baking steel (I presume in place of tiles or a stone). And this is the first mention I have seen for baguettes though I use my "baking aluminum" for pizza because it heats up fast and delivers lots of heat to the crust quickly. How thick is your steel? Carbon steel (I presume - but I have to inquire in case you have a source of stainless plate)? And does it alter anything else in the process?
Doc the baking steel is made by Vermont Castings and its specs say that it is mild carbon steel. I originally purchased it to bake pies on to ensure the bottom pastry got hot fast and browned. I am now using it to bake these baguettes.
Another variable with the second set and the longer cold retard is that I baked at 500ºF by accident for about ¾ of the bake time. The bottoms of these baguettes were definitely a bit over baked.
Benny - with a 3mm piece of sheet steel, heat moves through it pretty fast and will scorch the bread if you don't reduce the heat flux from the bottom by putting a couple of layers of crumpled up and re-flattened heavy duty aluminum foil between the steel and the rack it sits on. The steel will pre-heat and then provide instant heat delivery to the loaf on loading, but once that stored heat has been sucked out by the dough, there is still a route from the sides via lateral conduction through the plate and from the bottom through the foil but the heat delivery rate is not as fast as it would be if the bottom was not protected. Tile or stone with the right thermal diffusivity provides just the right heat delivery rate without burning while delaying thermal input from the back side. You would like the combination of crumpled foil and steel to provide the same effective thermal resistance as 3/8" clay tile.
This is starting to sound like what I am now doing with my dutch oven when I bake sourdough batards. I had sometimes had problems with over browning the bottom crust. What I have figured out is that if I can shield the dutch oven from direct heat, I no longer have problems with burning. I now place the dutch oven on top of the broiling rack that comes with the oven, made of granite ware. I wonder if placing the baking steel on the granite ware broiling rack would help shield it from direct heat and prevent burning as well. Since I already have the broiling rack it is worth trying. Thanks for the ideas Doc.
Benny
Sorry Doc, I missed your question about the thickness of the baking steel, it is only 3 mm thick. In regards to whether it alters anything else in the process, that I do not know because I don’t have anything else to compare it to.
I wanted to post this to the baguette CB because it may be a valuable asset for shaping baguettes.
Instead of hijacking the CB, the short video and message was posted to a new topic. If there is any discussion, it is probably best to use the other post. This CB is a behemoth... Alan takes the honors for the highest number of post to any CB as of this date. At this time we're at 446 replies.
Alfanso, has been promoted to The Fresh Loaf hall of fame. His star shall be prominently placed somewhere in the universe.
Back to the alternate post. See it here.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64855/extensible-dough-nutritional-yeast-and-fava-beans
Danny
My TFL Mt Rushmore would have ALfanso, DmSnyder, Dabrownman, and of course Minioven. That doesn't leave room for TXfarmer, Bwraithe, PatRoth and many others including you. This is your baby so take some of the bows along with the allure of the baguette.
Dan when he was a child. The DNA was already there!
We're going need a bigger mountain reminded me of two movie quotes - apropos for the two of you.
P.S. Conceptually I enjoy the reference, how could I not, but leave me off the mountain. I'm afraid of heights, my head is not my best side, and mostly because I'm just a doofus who figured it out.
Put you heads above the rest. The place just wouldn't have the vibe without you. The next line from Apocalypse Now quote was one of my favorite as it relates to guiding and life in general " Unless you plan on going all the way"
Lt. Colonel Hamelman Kilgore
Same dude
I was a cute kid. Even back the I was a fan of long baguettes. :D
"We're going to need considerably bigger buns"
Got a chuckle out of that one, Tom.
It was a great movie. Going to try to watch it again soon...
I found the time to bake again and I am pretty happy with the results!
Same formula but tweaked slightly:
Increased hydration to ~70%
Increased total content of Pivetti (11% protein) flour to nearly 100%.
Added Malt
Increased bulk
French (slap and) folded to full development.
Better oven spring, better volume, better taste, better colour, better texture.
----
Each baguette weighs 220 grams, they were scaled at 290g.
They've got all the good stuff I admire and want in a baguette. Love the crunching noises too. That's my kind of coloration as well.
Well done, and they are well done.
alan
Thanks Alan, that's great to hear. I really wanted to up my game with this bake and the deeper colouration really elevates the flavour too.
I tip my hat to you sir.
Michael
Hehehee. The sound of crunching noise in the video tells it all... Well Done!
Alfanso, had best keep his skills honed. There are a number of bakers barking up his tree. <LOL>
Love the color, the rugged crust near the scores, and the shape. These are exceptional.
It seems apparent that many of the bakers that joined this Community Bake have benefited by leaps and bounds. I know I have.
Thanks Danny.
The community bake is proving very fruitful to all involved. Can't thank you enough!
Wow, beautiful baguettes. Your scores open up so nicely and distinctively, I don’t think I’ve seen any others posted here that look like that. Again a signature look.
The Beaujolais Villages must have been good with that.
Benny
Thanks Benny, certainly I was very pleased with how the baggies bloomed.
The Beaujolais is my go-to wine and indeed it was perfect for an afternoon aperitivo with the baguettes, cheeses and cold cuts.
Cheers,
Michael
Knowledge, skill, flour, formulation, and process all come together nicely. The result is a piece of edible art. And the audio track in the video says a lot.
What was the oven cycle to get such a uniform coloration?
Or is that related to the malt? Which raises the question of how much malt was in that batch?
Doc. I am quite taken aback, thank you for your glowing review.
I trained and worked as chef before venturing into baking, so like a chef I tend to bake instinctively. I have a domestic fan oven and it does a good job at giving even colouration without any help from me. The flour I'm using isn't already malted and so the addition was very worthwhile as the previous bake struggled to colour.
I added 1% diastatic malted barley flour in accordance with Giorilli's methods.