This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Thank you.
I'm very much a person who likes to do things the right way. After I found this site it was mind-blowing. There is no right way to do things. The only right way is what works for you. That said, it is particularly fun to try to make each bread as the author intended it. And then completely blow that apart!
Baguettes are particularly interesting, it seems. There are so many tiny factors to manipulate and they are so noticeable in the final loaf. One could get stuck on making them.
I have a 3/4" stone but I want a bigger one for the upper racks. Maybe a baking steel instead though.
Time to bake yesterday's dough and see what mistakes I made!
my first attempt at baguettes. My baking steel is on loan to a friend so I had to make do with small baguette pans and therefore had to make the baguettes shorter to fit them.
I followed the framework outlined at the OP, save for the french folds. I just couldn't bring myself to work at it late at night, got lazy and decided to use a mixer with timed rests of 5 mins between running at low speeds.
The dough is probably the stiffest I've ever worked with, with little extensibility. Next time I'll try the french folds and maybe move hydration up a notch,
Bulked for 2 hours at 32dC, divided into 6 oblongs (207g) for the bench rest, then final shaped (with trepidation) seam side down on the baguette pan, wrapped with linen and then bagged up for the cold retardation. The volume rise at this point looked to be about 30%? I needed to go to bed and should have probably taken an extra 30-60 mins for BF.
Pictures of loaves post-scoring.
The next morning I heated the oven up to 250C, prepped a cast iron skillet with lava rocks and a loaf pan with wet towels. Spritzed water onto the loaves, loaded the oven, closed. Then opened to pour a cup of boiling water in the skillet. Baked at 13 mins with steam, 12 mins without.
Oven set-up (forgive the dirty oven door)
End result
I really liked the flavour but could have done with a more open crumb. My fridge runs cold (1-2dC) so there was little to no rise during the final proof. The BF could also have been pushed.
I'd buy those in a bakery! Very nice. How did you find the crumb - light or with a lot of chew?
Thank you :). The crumb is chewier than I would like, it could have afforded to be lighter.
If this is really your first baguette experience, you did a wonderful job. And I love the dark bake too. Your scoring is really good too, avoiding the dreaded sausage cuts that so many baguette beginners suffer. Suggestions about the scoring are to keep the longitudinal scoring "lanes" from drifting too far from off center, keep the score lines closer together and to have them overlap more. Your tip to toe scoring is just right.
With the whole grain and 68% hydration, this is a stiff dough to mix by hand, especially if one is used to high hydration, mostly white flour doughs. But far from some that I've French Folded. That 5 minute or so covered rest between mixing steps, mechanical or with FFs, gives the dough some time to relax and start to develop before continuing on with the rest of the mix.
If your experience at the stretch and fold steps are like mine, I think you would agree that the dough at that point exhibits a pretty fair extensibility, but not slack.
Do give it another go.
Thanks for the advice on the scores! I'm stoked to start on a second pass, just need to time it such that the mix time coincides with a spare bit of time.
Copernicus, I’m with Alan! What an outstanding first baguette bake. Since you haven’t struggled through many, many baguette bakes to attain moderate success, you may never know what most of us go through. Alan, is a highly respected baguette baker, but if you read his history it will become evident how hard he struggled over a long period of time to perfect his craft. I’ve toyed on and off with these babies for longer than I can remember.
Good on you... Phenomenal job!
Dan
Awww thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I've never done community bakes before, these are fun. Really loving what everyone's posting!
What beautiful loaves! I love the color and the uniformity.
I thought you were replying to me...
Formulation/process:
67% hydration, batch weight 1788g at divide/shape so 3 x ~ 596g "baguettes" which is admittedly a bit large
11.7% pre-fermented flour [100% hydration levain (28 + 114 + 114) fermented for ~12 hrs @ ~83°F and losing 3g of CO2 in the process]
1.9% salt
2 hr BF from wetting the flour
20 min autolyse (included levain but no salt)
Mix time 9 min in Assistent N28 with roller and scraper at speed 6 (maximum for use of roller and scraper)
Dough temp at end of mix: 86°F
Divide/preshape/20 min rest/shape (32min total)
Proof ~90 min on counter
Brush with water to remove surface flour
Top with kosher salt (~1.6g/loaf)
Slash just before oven entry
Bake w/ steam 500°F start, free fall for 2 min to 390°F during steam addition before reheating to 500°F then 8 min @ 500°F/100% humidity, 8 min @ 450°F 20% humidity, 2 min @ 390°F/0% humidity (total time 20 min)
Convection fan was on low speed for the first 10 min and intermittently (20 sec on/120 sec off) for the remainder of the bake cycle.
I will probably never make baguettes as pretty as Alfonso, but it is fun to try, and the neighborhood enjoys the residuals as well as the failures.
A 67% hydration load with 25% whole grain, if you kept to the general formula outline, is yielding a really nice open crumb here. Even if all white and high gluten. I love a darker bake, and your shaping is just right, so I think this is a grand success. Scoring is generally the bane of most baguette bakers who haven't sweated through the process and few of us ever get it down immediately.
When you decide to do nothing but baguettes week in/week out for something like a year and a half with the occasional distraction of a few batards here and there, as I did, then I'd expect you to get the scoring down neat and clean ?. Ain't nuttin' to be ashamed of here.
As far as late entries - in past CBs I've seen stragglers come in months later, this is still within days of the start.
I wonder if I’ll ever get to the point where I feel the need to apologize for baguettes like those. The shape (conservatively sloping ends terminating with moderately rounded end caps) of the first loaf is sweet.
“ Bake w/ steam 500°F start, free fall for 2 min to 390°F during steam addition”.
Was your oven set to fall, or did the temperature fall as a result of the steam?
For any bakers that have not seen Doc’s “Slashing Video”, here it is. It is a must see.
For best viewing use THIS LINK.
My oven is German and designed for 3-phase power, so when the wiring is changed to accomodate 240vac the steam generator time shares the mains with the box heating elements. And since box temperature is prioritized over humidity, if I don't drop the thermostat right after I load the oven, the steam generator does not make steam until after the box is back up to temperature (not what I want). So my solution is to drop the set point from 500°F to 390°F for 2 minutes which allows the power to go to the boiler while the box humidity is below 100%. It takes a little less than 120 sec for the steam generator to do its job and the box drops to just over 390°F in the process as it heats the steam up while cooling the box down. Then it goes back to 500°F set point and it takes about another 2 minutes to get it back up to temp. There is an alternate way to do it which I use for bagels: preheat to 212°F/100% humidity using the steam generator by itself and load at that temperature then 2 minutes at 212°F/100% before taking the temperature up to 500°F. The box temp climbs at about 1°F per second so it takes 5 min (300 sec) to get up to temp. Have not tried that for baguettes but I might do it just to see how it turns out. Typically I get a totally blistered surface when I do that with bagels:
That's an incredible look for bagels! Those look delicious.
Wow I’ve never seen bagels with blisters, they are a thing of beauty.
Can I just say...that makes my mouth drool!
Some bakers claim that steaming bagels is a crime at some level, but my bagels never get boiled any more. The oven gets preheated with steam and the bagels go in straight from an overnight retard at ~42°F, then they get just steam for a couple of minutes before the heaters come on to take the oven up to browning temperature. This is not a skill thing at all, just a pure capital equipment play with a few trial and success runs varying the temperature and timing.
So many amazing bakes and what a great idea to feature Alan's baguette's for a community bake Dan!
I will read more through the posts but to be honest not sure whether I am brave enough to give baguette's another go and might sit this one out...so lovely to see all those amazing bakes and feels like hearing all your voices but I am shocked to see that Alan has changed a lot since I logged in last time...looking good! :D
Happy baking, Kat
Come on in, the water's fine. You'll never know how another bake will go.
As for the change, the new picture is of my fraternal twin sister. Here's the old pic expanded to include us both.
Fortunately my wife didn't make me climb into the hatchback with her for the remainder of the trip!
I would love to join in but I am wrestling 21kg dough handmixed that keeps me busy...but maybe baguettes might be on the menu one day... for now I keep things simple...that is such a lovely photo! Kat
Well look who popped up! Miss “fancy pants” commercial baker herself. How is your world, Kat? Is Barney wearing his mask? I see you on Instagram, but I’m too old for that hippie stuff :D
Guess what? The 3 musketeers (including Leslie) showed up for the Baguette CB.
Danny
I am just an 'imposter' .... and nothing fancy about handmixing 21kg of dough!!! Quite the opposite with the slap and folds...ha, ha......
So good to see all the happy baking and posts from you all... Kat
I feel tired just thinking about that! Miss your posts Kat! sounds like you are doing lotsa baking!
love to see you join in too...
Leslie
baguettes Leslie! I hope you are keeping well.....different challenges at the moment and just wanted to say hello...I love all the amazing bakes here... Kat
Only after my prior bake for the CB did I notice a formula spreadsheet error. I had converted the levain to a 75% mixed flour levain and made the changes to the spreadsheet to accomodate this. However I left out the WW component for the levain on the sheet. Although the total ingredients were all accounted for, the levain for the final dough was short by ~45g, and roughly 1/4 of the levain went missing.
I had to get another bake in with the appropriate and desired components. Scaled down to three baguettes/long batards at ~325g each, about 15-20g greater than that prior bake.
Here, again, is the corrected spreadsheet:
The kids scored and getting ready for their sauna
Steam released and rotated
Comparison with the remaining baguette (second from top) from prior bake
Nice bake. The photos look like they belong in a text book. The one with the scored loaves ready to go into the oven is a nice to see so that others can get the picture of where the slashes should land. The angle of the cuts do not follow the lines of the ears in the finished bake. Maybe you should have been a surgeon. Dr Grigne
we took a trip around the "circle of fire" or whatever that's called, taking us SE toward Sisters and Bend OR and heading south toward Crater Lake, stopping at Newberry Crater and the expansive obsidian fields there.
On one of the obsidian field trails way above the crater was a marker explaining that a surgeon had chipped out a piece of the obsidian and fashioned a scalpel out of it. A pair microscopic lens photos revealed that the stainless steel surgeon's scapel has significant burrs and imperfections in it when magnified enough. Just about none showed up on the obsidian scalpel at that magnification. That doctor had his surgeon use that scalpel for his own own surgery sometime a few years later.
I'm finally tired of the reddish cast that the phone's camera displays due to the incandescent light above. So next time I'll try snapping away without the light and see whether I can get a more realistic image of what the crumb actually looks like.
Yeah, I wasn't all that thrilled with the prior bake especially when I discovered that the short changed levain may have been the culprit. But with this bake, the world seems right again. At least as far as my kitchen is concerned...
Thanks, alan
This is not my usual kind of bake (I'm generally a whole wheat 'country loaf' type baker, usually with seeds, fruit nuts) but baguettes are an appealingly basic bread to try to master. Because it's what I have for flour, I used fresh ground and then bolted hard red winter wheat for this bake. It may be similar to T85, based on the amount of bran I removed (with a #40 sifter). I used a Nutrimill, a micronizer mill, and it leaves a lot of the bran in rather big flakes. I raised the hydration slightly to 72% to accommodate the thirstier flour. I used this flour to substitute the combo of white and ww. I did include the small amount of rye flour, since it was on hand in my pantry. So it's not really the same bake, but I'm using the basic concepts and seeing what comes out. Besides this substitution, I followed the basic formula laid out, including timing, slap and folds etc. Here is an account. Will update when baked
55% starter fed the night before (20 g seed, 80 gr flour, 45 gr water). Put under water:
Starter in the morning (it stuck to the lid):
Short autolyse (without salt) with salt and levain waiting to incorporate:
After slap and folds, into the dough bin:
After 2 hrs (I forgot the last letter fold, though I did some early folds). By 2.5 hrs, it had gained a some more bubbles:
preshape :
Shaped about 15 inches long and then put in fridge. Not super happy with the shaping, dough was very elastic and fought back. Probably should have bulk fermented slightly longer. Or just rested longer after preshape.
We'll see what happens in the morning.
In the morning. Not much rise in the fridge, but that's somewhat normal. Preheated oven to 475, used my usual steam method (ice cubes in a shallow tray). The loaves were underproofed and perhaps the oven was too hot. They split out the sides :-/
The flavor and crust are great. Crumb could be more open, but it's solidly edible. I appreciate the advice down-thread on the shaping, and those tips would probably help with a more open crumb also. Other things to try, slightly longer bulk ferment or a short room temp rest before refrigeration, lower oven temp, a little more hydration added during the slap and folds.
Hey Sumi. Glad to hear you are using 100% bolted flour. If I have soft Soft White Wheat, I am thinking of doing the same. Will probably sift through a 50 mesh. If I have pastry flour I may include a percentage of that. Want to explore low protein baguettes.
I look for to your results.
Danny
I would suggest next time to use a rectangular letter fold for the pre shape. I prefer seam up but that is not always the case. A bulk that is shorter is better so that the dough doesn't get too strong, makes for easier shaping as well. Look forward to seeing them out of the oven.
Sumi, Two thoughts.
Perhaps even better, don't mix it as much next time. Over the years I have gradually come to a practice of intentionally under-mixing so that there is more extensibility left at the end of BF. That also means don't keep folding after it reaches adequate dough development. If you are making one boule that is one thing. But if you are making a dozen rolls you probably want to be even more careful about not over mixing/folding/preshaping. But you still want it to reach full development when it goes into the oven. It is a delicate dance.
Especially regarding baguettes. Minimum yeast and I mix until it just comes together and if I do slap and fold it is less than 10 total (I don't mean minutes)depending on hydration. I do use a couple of coil folds at intervals which is basically S&F in slo-mo. I suppose we could call it no knead just folds. It can lead to a tumble on the dance floor if the floor is wet but for a slow dance with less slinging. I'm there.
I work my pizza dough with more vigorous s&f which is basically the same recipe and it's pleasing to feel the dough develop. For those of you who end up with a hollow almost bagel shape when doing slap and folds I suggest you try it one handed! Yes, for a small amount of dough it works well for me and is even more fun.
Sumi those look great, so much better than my first and third attempts. Are you happy with them?
Benny
Thanks, Benny. I'm happy with their flavor and texture. I need work on the shaping, final proof and cooking. I think I'll try a batch with Bread flour (when I have some) as a point of comparison. This is a fun bake, isn't it?
Yes it is very fun, especially when it works. My totally under fermented ones weren’t so fun. But at least it helped me figure out, with help from the group here, that my starter was slow and needed to be built up which I have now done and have used it to levain one dough (but not a baguette).
I think this is my third time making baguettes according to Alan’s formula that is listed in the original post. Every time the dough has been difficult for me to do the required slap & folds at the recommended hydration. I am beginning to wonder if my expectations (feel and behavior) for the dough during slap & folds is different from others. I am accustomed to very slack and fluid dough for Slap & Folds. Those dough are far from being resistant.
Seeing in believing. So I made a short video. Please let me know how your slap & folds went.
For best viewing USE THIS LINK.
Please let me know your experience with your Slap & Folds.
Danny
Maybe even a little more workable than what I experience. Of course without my own hands in the dough, I can only judge by what I see you do.
Somewhere in the now quite long thread I'd commented that this dough, as with many of the "lower hydration" doughs I work with all do, exhibits the characteristic of becoming a thick continuous "rope" loop. But after another 20 or so FFs all becomes integrated again. Only to repeat itself. About twice on either side of the 5 minute rest period.
At first, way back, I thought that there was something wrong with the dough formula, but very soon came to realize that this was a quite normal behavior. For me anyway. If folks are attempting FFs for the first time and typically use a mechanical mixer, they may not know what to expect or feel.
Since I've never worked with fresh milled flour, I can't say what the experience would be.
I felt like I was pummeling a brick. Then at about the 70th FF, things started easing up and I was amazed at the increase in extensibility.
I've never worked so hard at kneading. I'm curious as to what the benefits to FFs over say Rubaud kneading + S&Fs/ Coil Folds. Not in the context of this particular dough per se, given that the latter wouldn't work well in a dough this stiff.
I've been baking but I'm saving it and not posting each time.
I played with diastatic malt. My flour is a commercial flour and doesn't have any in it. I know the amounts I added were huge- I took it to a far far extreme and I'll dial it back from there. This is the baguette dough formed as a boule. Future bakes will include it- albeit it in less quantities.
Lots of loaves trying to dial in oven temps and scoring. And learning things I didn't intend to learn. Valuable lessons though.
For instance, this is the same batch of dough baked at various temps. It could be effected by the pan being removed from retard each time to remove a loaf. The difference in crumb was remarkable. Future testing to be done.
By the end of that, I arrived at this- ugly for some reasons but pleasing to me for others. Better oven spring and a big change in texture. Bread is so cool.
I like how you’re experimenting, I’ve only ever used 0.5% diastatic malt and I do like what it can do for my bread. I’d be interested in the crumb since I’ve heard so many times that diastatic can make your crumb gummy, but I’ve never used more than 0.5% and haven’t seen that effect yet, but with those super high amounts you’d think you’d see that.
It was a miscalculation and so it became 5% instead of .5% lol. And then I took it to the extreme. The texture was gummy but not goo. I opted not to eat. Lol
Could be just longer proof time as I assume they were baked sequentially. From the crumb I would guess at 45 min to 60 min longer for the last one relative to the first one, but hard to tell depending on temperature.
These loaves were done hours apart. I wanted to have an even playing field...or I would have to repeat the experiment.
Keep in mind...this is way over the amount that should ever be used so the effects are more pronounced.
I'm sure to repeat this, though, with more acceptable amounts.
While I suspect you are right that the effects of the malt are the source of the additional browning, I have to ask how long was it from oven-on to loaf-out for each loaf. It could just be increased oven wall temperature as the oven does not stabilize for quite some time. I generally add 1/2t of malted barley flour for ~1000g of bread flour to get a little increase in browning, but it also contributes to the maltose available in the dough at the end of autolyse since I add it into the flour prior to adding the water.
I'll be redoing this with lower amounts and will see how it plays out. I don't expect as dramatic results- once I realized my mistake with the first calculation, I decided to push it. I intended to do .5% but ended up with 5%. Ugh.
I would redo it entirely the same except it gave me the overall information I was looking for- that I need to add diastatic malt. I'll start with your recommendation of 1/2 tsp per 1000 grams. The price of my flour justifies the effort to figure this one out.
0.5% is supposed to be the upper limit for malted barley flour. My 1/2t is 1.82g so that is 0.5% of 364g, and 1.5t per 1000g is above the suggested upper limit. So 1t/Kg of flour might be a good place to start and then go up and down by 1/2t/Kg. I have noticed that there can be a big difference in effectiveness between batches (in part because I don't have to buy it very often but I always test a new batch).
Jen, were the 5% and/or the 10% diastatic malt gummy?
How would you describe the flavor, texture, crumb?
The 5 and 10% boules look pretty much the same in color to me.
I am interested to learn.
Danny
OH! Thanks for taking the time to experiment and post your findings. This type of information is beneficial. We need more testers!
Oh I love testing! I know what other people say about things but I want to be able to replicate the results myself. I'm wasting dough until I get my oven figured out- you were right and it is setting too early. The signs were there before but I didn't know what I was looking at. Almost there.
I did this again at .5%, 1%. Disappointing because of the oven. I'll redo it when I've got it dialed in.
As you know the Hamelman formula for this Pain au Levain with whole-wheat flour calls for a stiff levain 60% hydration.
I have been trying to discover what are the characteristics between the two. Today, I was reading a book that I've had for a while and discovered this:
"Liquid levain. This is a relatively new kind of sourdough, a batterlike culture made from wheat flour and water that is easy to mix and easy to measure out. It has gained in popularity in France because it ferments more easily and is easier to mix and measure out than stiff dough levain. Liquid levain has a fruity taste and a light, bubbly feel all over your tongue. It is mildly and immediately sour.
Stiff/dough levain. This very firm sourdough is the traditional French bread starter. It ferments very slowly, a plus for French bakers who abhor overly sour bread and want to limit the production of acids in their sourdough. In contrast to liquid levain, stiff dough levain is mild but earthy and not as light on your tongue. Its flavor is richer and darker and develops slowly in your mouth."
Local Breads – Daniel Leader, page 43.
Though you may be interested as it has been a poser for me.
Cheers,
Gavin.
I was wondering why a stiff levain would carry less acid than a more liquid levain, and came to the following conjecture:
The growth rate of the acid producing microbiological components of the levain (the LAB) is inhibited more by higher concentrations of acetic acid, lactic acid, acetate, and lactate (according to Gänzle) and thus a more liquid starter/levain will have a lower concentration of these constituents and thus will permit the production of more acid before the process is curtailed. And this is probably why a very liquid levain (hydrations above 200%) produces a more acid bread (because it carries more acid from the levain to the dough as well as a somewhat higher numerical density of LAB which in turn makes acid faster in the final dough terminating with a higher acidity/TTA in the resulting bread.
Thanks,
I've downloaded the article from your dropbox as i may take a while to absorb the detail.
Cheers,
While the paper is not ancient, much has been learned since 1998 when Gänzle was in grad school. I have probably read it 50 times, and I find something new or different than I remembered on many of those examinations. And there are a few things that are worth considering in the larger context:
A model is a model and is derived to serve a purpose. In this case it was to characterize the growth rates of two LAB species and a yeast found in sourdough bread. The zero growth temperatures in the model do not have some magical physical or biological principle that defines them, they were picked to facilitate a relatively simple model and at least the low temperature reality is that the LAB continues to produce acid even if it does not replicate at temperatures below where the model declares that growth rate has reached zero. And the yeast also continues to metabolize sugars and produce CO2 below the point where the model indicates that replication rate reaches zero. So be careful when extrapolating the model beyond what it was intended to be used for.
that a liquid levain, because it is a liquid rather than a viscous semi-solid delivers its load of acid to your tongue very quickly so seems quite sour immediately, while a 60% hydration (stiff) levain cannot contibute to a high TTA saliva because the acid is locked up until you chew or mash it so the sour flavor is delivered mose slowly. I don't find any measurable difference in the TTA of bread made with a liquid vs a stiff levain unless I design the liquid levain to have that property. You can arrange for the high hydration to dilute the acid during levain growth and thus yield a higher LAB numerical density when it is mixed. This delivers more initial acid to the dough because the high hydration of the levain allows the LAB to produce more before it shuts down. 2X hydration produces 2X the acid in order to reach the same TTA when it is used. 2X TTA doubles the acidity at the start of bulk fermentation while the flour buffers the pH and allows the higher LAB numbers to produce acid at a higher rate. In bulk dough the pH almost never gets below 3.8 and thus the LAB continue to replicate AND produce acid all the way to the oven - including during a retard that happens at temperatures below where the yeast essentially stops.
where this time I did the FFs, the full 300. The dough became so extensible, almost a different creature from the machine mixed dough I used for the first bake.
This time round I lowered the temperature to 400F for the last ten minutes, hence a lighter crust. I also did a half batch.
I much preferred this crumb, the chew was just right. Could definitely see some improvement in rolling the batons out, I felt like I pushed down too much during the motion.
These two look just great. Great shaping and scoring.
You see, I've written on TFL many times over that if I could do it, anyone with a little practice also could.
The more I bake these baguettes, the more expert Alan becomes...
Went with Alan’s formula that was listed in the original post. In an effort to produce a soft bite the dough was wixed with KAAP, Bob’s Red Mill Whole Wheat PASTRY Flour, and Whole Rye. Looks like the pastry flour lowered the protein enough to tenderize the bread. Yea!
All 4 bakes using Alan’s SD formula tasted great. IMO, the gluten was still stronger than I wished. Dough was mixed to 73% hydration and it was more difficult to shape. TIP - if while shaping the baguette the dough is too loose, put it in the freezer for 10-15 minutes. Shaping will be more manageable with a cold dough.
These baguettes were good, bad, and ugly.
Lesson learned -
If any bakers are interested in longer baguettes that require loading the sideways, see THIS LINK for an idea.
Danny
Double weight (or even single weight) corrugated cardboard is an incredible material for lots of things, including peels and transfer paddles. Some of mine are nearly 20 yrs old and just fine thank you. And if you are into laminating with aliphatic resin glue, shaping with compound scroll saw cuts, and assembly with hot-melt glue, you can make some really nice "temporary" furniture, cabinets, and tables then keep trimming and revising until it is perfect before you make templates and build it with a fancy material (if you every really want to).
That's some nice looking sticks right there!
I agree, those full length baguettes are impressive.
I got my Amazon order today so finally have a flax linen couche for a future bake hopefully next week.
I use the most traditional French baguette transfer board, although mine is made in Italy. See below.
Benny, what are the dimensions of your board?
Good luck with the couche...
Now you can put those baggies to sleep properly.
The first baguettes I made I tried to transfer with a cutting board, but it was awkward and too heavy. Then I remembered seeing someone use a wine box lid in a video. Too bad it isn’t a French wine box, oh well.
The dimensions of this one is 14” x 10.25”. I have a Port box that is larger, but no lid. The lid from that one would be 15.5” x 12.5”. The lids are ideal because they are stiff and very light and it is something I already had.
You may have to change to the panorama setting on your camera to get them in the picture. I can’t wait for my longer stone to arrive. I wonder what it measures on the diagonal ;-}
Last night I pulled the trigger on these exquisite specimens! While I never really had to much trouble with sticking, on my thick,100% cotton, pastry cloth, I felt I could not go on living in good conscience, without spending some $$$ on my hobby!
Pro style "Red Stripe" Couche
Flipping cool this is!
Unrelated, but equally cool as heck! (Care to hazard a guess, what this item will be used for?)
PK, we worked hard all our lives. It’s time to play a little. Or, a lot...
Danny - you get an A+ for effort with six attempts! Keep at it. They look good and while your yard stick (the great Alfanso) is a mighty leap, you should be proud of your effort and results. Well done!
EDIT! I just saw your seventh attempt! Wow. Now that's impressive!
Wait for this material to become available
Buy two yards of 53" wide material (that will be 72" x 53") and cut it into three 24" x 53" strips and zig-zag and trim the edges (the ends are good to go). Give two of them away as gifts. The recipients will remember you for a lifetime. And you will have a lifetime couche.
Jen Bakes 5
Warning- these are the ugly loaves only a mother could love. And I just want to hug them right now. I finally have a glossy sheen to the crust and while they are not boldly baked, they are much more evenly baked. That's a win.
I've felt like taking out my oven with a hammer and like I know less with each bake. I could have sworn that I knew how to bake bread before this but now I'm not so sure! Every bake brings up more questions and more variables. Pretty exciting.
What I'm playing with right now:
Diastatic Malt
Tried 3 loaves with lower amounts of diastatic malt. I'll have to repeat it once I have the oven dialed in. This is what they looked like. The "spring" area gets progressively darker with more malt. The crumb was too tight to tell anything.
Baking Set-Up
Used Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough.
After more disastrous bakes, this is what I've come to. A very large baking sheet with two mini loaf pans in the center with lava rocks, covered by a large aluminum pan after adding water. Previously my loaves were dull and darkened by the time I removed the steam. They came out shiny and pale when I removed the steam. Hurray!
Adding steam with Sylvia's towel and lava rocks in a cast iron skillet leaves less than 3" from the baguettes to the upper element. It seals up my loaves fast and they've been at 210 degrees and well colored at 13 minutes. With a bottom element, too, it gets complicated. I've got several ideas that'll take a lot of dough to flesh out. I'll spare y'all the full melodrama.
Bulk Fermentation Time
I've been spending most of my time concentrating on the look of the baguettes and not the dough itself. I was reading about oven spring and crumb in relation to bulk fermentation. Alan's instructions are to allow the dough to bulk ferment for 2.5 hours but his kitchen is about 10 degrees warmer than mine. I was thinking I might need to lengthen my bulk fermentation to open the crumb.
Again, this is Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough. I divided the batch of dough in 2. The instructions call for 5.5 hours of overall bulk fermentation. Batch 1 was given 5 hours. Batch 2 was given 5 hr 45 minutes.
The results were remarkable. I'm excited to see where further experiments take this.
Looking forward to playing with diastatic malt and bulk fermentation further.
Jen, as a fellow conductor of experiments, we have kindred spirits. I am watching your work closely and know how much work goes into experimentation, not to mention the time and effort to publish write ups. Your information allows others to learn without putting in the work. A Big Thank You!
What is your number 1 goal?
When working with diastatic malt what do you hope to achieve?
I amy not have the answer, but would like to follow along.
Keep experimenting and posting your results...
Danny
I do really like the shine on that crust!
Danny,
I spend a lot of time watching your videos. Most recently they helped diagnose what is wrong with my loaves- it should have been obvious but I didn't know what I was looking at. So many many thanks back at you!
Since you asked...
Diastatic malt is in most every retail packaged bread flour. Mine does not have it. I want to see the actual difference on oven spring, fermentation time and caramelization. I feel like I should have better oven spring. How does the usage play out on bread baked the same day, 8 hr retard, 16 hr retard. What is the effect over time on the dough structure. With higher hydration versus lower hydration doughs? How do I achieve the optimal caramelization at the optimal internal temperature?
I want to quantify it all. And just about everything else, too.
I'm going to spare this thread most of that. I have a direction for now but need to research and plan well for the future. As I'm sure you aware, logic gaps are best figured out before the experiment!
Jen
I am surprised that you can see any difference between 0% and 0.01%. And 0.05% is only 10% of the recommended maximum.
You might consider the following: Put the bread in the middle of the oven and an aluminum cookie sheet on a rack under the bread to protect the bottom from direct radiant heat from the lower oven element, then put the steam generator on a shelf above the bread but off to the side if you can arrange it. This keeps the steam on a lower rack from cooling off the bread from the bottom but allows the upper element to see the top of the bread and contribute to browning.
I'll correct that. It is .5% and 1%.... thank you for pointing that out! Good grief. For a half batch that was 1.7 and 3.4 grams, respectively. I shouldn't save up days of bakes and post at one time.
I've thought about that arrangement but dismissed it. For some reason I was thinking about it only underneath. Loaf pans of lava rocks on either side from above may do it. I need to try quarry stones under my fibrament baking stone, too. Scorching hot from both directions.
Open steam would let me have longer loaves.
More to try- thank you very much!
I hadn't thought about that. It seems so much smarter to top load your steam as you suggest. Except maybe you'd have water splatter on the top of the bread - maybe. I'm baking today and will try it your way.. thanks
If practice makes perfect. I have a lot of practice left to do.
Deviated a little from Alan’s formula. 85% Bread Flour, 10% Hard Red Wheat, 5% Whole Rye. Reducing the whole grain to 15% still provided a nice flavor. Not as intense as 25% WW, though, but never the less very nice. Since I used an 8 hour cold (38F) autolyse the hydration remained at 68%. The idea of the autolyse was to weaken the dough and make the it more extensible. I’m not sure the affect was achieved, but the crust and crumb were more tender than any other bake. That was enjoyable. The crumb was moist but not at all gummy. The crust was still too thick. But this bake started at 550F. I wanted to see if the crust would break and produce ears. Not so <disappointing>
Can someone break the code of silence and let us all know what it takes to get the crust to fracture and allow the oven spring to manifest those gorgeous ears? I hope to break the code but, “It don’t come easy, you know it don’t come easy”.
HERE is an in-oven time lapse video of the bake. The oven was thoroughly pre-heated to 550F and ~8oz of water was injected as steam in the very beginning. Maybe someone will pickup a clue that will “break the code”.
For the most part I am happy with the baggies, in large part due to the help rec’d in the Community Bake.
BUT those darn ears :-(...
NOTE - shaped baguette dough will shrink some. If a 22 incher is the goal, anticipate stretching out to 23.5-24” to allow for shrinkage.
I hate to throw in the towel and admit defeat. But I am tempted to increase the dough weight from 330g/dough to 500g and make some 20-22” long and beautiful batards. I think they would be a thing of beauty...
I've always been apprehensive of baking my own baguettes. having had some amazing ones in Europe, i had little faith that i could even come close to replicating anything like that in a home kitchen. But after somewhat following this thread for the past week. i decided to give it a go. But due to bad timing, i pretty much half-assed the effort... i had to put the dough in the fridge during multiple segments due to some things that came up.
my biggest concern was getting a crackly shiny crust, which i was able to do with spraying water mist and top and bottom heated trays for steam.
the loafs were under proofed and didnt open up the scores much. the bottom was very flat and the crumb not open at all.
I'm not discouraged by this. and will give it another try in a week. but do have some questions:
- What should the dough feel like after bulk fermentation before shaping? jiggly and full or big bubbles? or just moderately airy? (i was afraid to over proof)
- baking on a stone will mean a very flat bottom,right? i do have a curved bread baker for baguettes but they are big.
I also know i didnt build enough tension in the final shaping and will do better on that. but i wonder if the preshaped dough is very airy, how difficult that would be to do. i guess i'll find out.
-James
James, I have had limited success, but very airy is not what you want. Think about it. If the dough was airy and full of big bubbles, how would you shape it?
For me, and I’m no expert, I want the Bulk Ferment to look slightly swollen with a rounded top. Definitely not giggly. I have not been allowing the dough to rise as much as other types of doughs. The shaping of a baguette is very different from most other breads. Who would think of patting down, then compressing a boule in the same fashion a baguette is shaped. Baguettes are a unique bread and requires special and technical skills. It is unforgiving when it comes to mis-handling and user errors. A baguette will not cut a baker any slack...
Hopefully others that are more experienced with Baguettes will provide a more definitive answer. I am also interested to learn.
your baguettes look darned good to me!
In order to better answer some of your questions, it is always good to provide what percentages of flours you are using, hydration, hydration of your levain or amount of IDY or both, salt... Are sticking to the suggested formula at the top of the thread or finding your own mix?
And then your methodology. If you snapped a picture of the dough at BF completion divide and shaping, that would help too.
Not even moderately airy. There is a short series of videos at the top of this entire post worthy of reviewing. Those should lend a hand to you in seeing what the dough looks like at completion of BF and shaping.
Welcome to our little corner of TFL. always looking to welcome new recruits!
Dan you and I are in the same boat in more ways than just being fishing guides who bake. It would be fun to share a boat someday carrying on like yahoos. I am so hooked (pardon the pun) on traditional french baguettes that I can't seem to stray too far off the shore. Glad to see you out exploring the territory and searching for the good holes.
This has been fun to add sourdough and whole grain to what has been for me an IDY baguette dogma. I want to explore Alfanso style in the future but I thought it would help others who are just starting out to see other options and possibilities in the baguette realm.
I used two of Martin Phillips formulas from his book except for using 1/3 of the yeast called for. An all white yeasted poolish one and his sourdough/yeasted country one that I the did in the other bakes but reduced the whole grain to 8% of half rye and wheat.They scale out at 330 grams and will be more elongated when the new stone arrives. Since these bakes don't allow us to share the taste and chew. I have been trying to improve the visual aspect and working on symmetry and shape and worrying less about holes in the crumb and getting a rustic result. No matter what recipe I use or hydration I change I end up with the same look. We all seem to have an individually unique and distinct style, kind of like penmanship that is hard to counterfeit.
The previous one were baked straight through and were a joy to work with, but today they were lightly mixed early in the morning with two folds and retarded till late afternoon. The bulk was further along than I wanted and the dough was a little too gassy but still handled well enough to shape. I try to elongate as much as possible before rolling them on the bench which I try to do with as few rotations as possible. Sometimes only three or four. That also makes it easier to find the seam which goes up in the couche. Tension is built before the rolling out them out. My tendency to max out the hydration causes the blade to catch while scoring and that causes the jagged ears I'm guessing but the angle must be steep enough to create the flap.
Ear they are
.
Poolish on the left sourdough on the right.
One oder of french toast prepped for the morning.
MT - your baguettes look great! As someone that's making dry yeast and sourdough side by side can you talk about chew? I'm taking all advice on creating a gentler crust with dark colour but not so much dense chew. Dry yeast seems to off that but I'm not sure I fully grasp yet how to achieve that result with sourdough baguettes. Any insights you can offer? Thanks in advance.
Dark crust that is thin can be had by brushing the surface with unsweetened condensed milk just before oven entry and reducing the temperature so that you don't scorch it. Try 375°F and then watch it and iterate to what you want.
To reduce the chewiness try a lower protein flour and don't over-develop the gluten, maybe just stop when the dough almost passes a window pane test. Then make small adjustments.
The yeast vs sourdough issue is more complex but you need to do both so that you learn the difference and decide where you want to operate.
Thanks Doc. I slapped and folded for 20 minutes straight and got a terrific crumb. But from your note likely at the cost of a chewier crust. Maybe I'll cut the dough in half and make two with 10 minute and two with 20 to compare the difference.
Adequate steaming to start and removing it after 10 minutes is what I do and then leaving them in the oven turned off with the door cracked should help the crust. I would think that a lot of tension in the shaping would make for a thinner crust but will leave that question to the pros.
Less protein by adding rye or more whole grains should create a softer chew. I always thought a well developed gluten (think pan de mie) would soften the crumb but maybe that is the butter and milk. Baguettes are a different animal and don’t respond to the same treatment as other breads.
My other thought would be to try doing them without retarding them. I have noticed I get a lighter bread sometimes when I bake straight through.
IDY might come in a red bag but that should not brand the bread with Scarlet Letters. While I would not use it to make sourdough bread because I enjoy the chew. It makes for a nice baguette even with a levain in the mix.
I didn't have any rye so used whole wheat in it's place. I have some whole spelt. I think I'll try that this time around and see if it improves the chewiness of the crumb! Thanks!
a box of Nabisco 'Nilla Wafers and they'd come out looking like your baguette scores. A few years ago I posted that it was really important for me to exhibit consistency across bakes. Looking at these side by side one would never know they weren't from the same mix. But they would know who scored them!
How to do it? As our new baguette recruit Jen said when she joined the chorus, the well-worn refrain "practice practice practice".
Super,
alan
I learn so much by participating in the Community bakes. Avid bakers come together to bake and share their techniques with a focus on the same bread, at the same time. The skills of each baker has the ability to increase in quantum leaps.
Gotta’ luv this forum! Where else can we “pick the brains” of so many skilled bakers?
With that in mind, let me do a little “brain picking”. You wrote, “ I try to elongate as much as possible before rolling them on the bench which I try to do with as few rotations as possible. Sometimes only three or four. That also makes it easier to find the seam which goes up in the couche. Tension is built before the rolling out them out.“
Two very interesting points that I would like more specific details.
Your goal of only 3 or 4 roll outs is note worthy. I am working towards that, but haven’t achieved it yet. I often have one heck of a time finding the seams. Sometimes I never do.
Hey Don, next time you score a batch, take a photo of the scored dough and post it. It should be helpful for others.
Danny
but spaced it out. I will make a note to photograph the scores next time. My cut is angled less than 45 degrees and I error on the side of under proofed to help with scoring and bloom.
As to elongating them out, The bulk is done in a square 2 qt Cambro container. The white poly ones release better than the clear ones. I divide the square into rectangles and and loose letter fold those which lengthens them. I then stretch them longer before shaping. I like to use the thumb stitching method that Hammelman uses in his videos. This is when the final tension is built in. They are more than a foot long by then and close to the desired diameter so as few rolls as possible finishes the job without overdoing it. All of this is predicated by having a dough that is not elastic which I try to accomplish by using an autolyse, a short mix, very little gluten developement,a higher hydration and a bulk that increases in size by only 20 to 30% A few times, when I have tried to roll an elastic dough too much, the bubbles suddenly come to the surface and I stop and just settle for that length. I don't believe tension is created by the actual rolling except for the pressure applied to lengthen them. Much of what I stated applies to a yeasted or hybrid versions because a sourdough only baguette is different in my limited experience and someone else would know more about that.
You might glean something from this video of a lovely lady shaping sourdough sticks. Shaping and baking sourdough baguettes It is a somewhat different method but probably more in line with shaping sourdough.
Watched that girl shape a few days ago, but didn’t pay much attention until you mentioned it. Unorthodox shaping, but she does an excellent job and appears highly skilled. Plan to give this a serious try. Her shaping seems to put very little stress on the dough. Wonder if the wood top is much better than granite.
How I’d love to get my dough to handle like her’s.
Also like your idea of BF in a square or rectangular container. I haven’t been setting up the shape of the BF dough for shaping. My last stretch and fold should be much looser with the idea of the dough having an even height and a rectangular shape for dividing with the idea that those pieces will be cut to more easily facilitate the pre-shape.
I really need to follow my own advice. As a charter guide, I often explained to clients. “The difference is not the ability to throw a fly line a hundred feet. It’s the bag of tiny little things that make a huge difference. Ask Tiger Woods about golf.” In bread baking as well as most endeavors, little details separate to the good baker from the excellent one.
I have used granite a few times and it seemed pretty consistent and didn't soak up the water like wood does but was also a little less grippy which can be an asset.
I have never had a dough that could be stretched so far and so easily as the video shows. I did find it interesting how the tension was added. I use that technique on other larger breads and would think it would pick up the slack in a sourdough baguette that is not as resilient as a yeasted one. It looks like they almost shape twice rather than a loose pre shape and the final shape.
I always say don't throw your fly out there without an idea in mind. Make your fly tell a story that the fish like.
That relates to scoring was to face the ear away from the more intense heat in the back of the oven so the bloom does not dry out. Not sure if it makes a difference but it can't hurt to try for us side loaders.
Don, I like the way you think. It may or may not benefit but it is definitely worth a try.
To make sure I understand. The “V” section of the score should face the back of the oven, right?
I will be baking Martin’s Poolish Baguettes tomorrow. I emailed him and asked for an image of his oven setup. He wrote in his book that his oven has multiple fire bricks and/or stones.
I intend to use the lady’s shaping technique in the video you linked today. Thinking about (3) 20-22” baguettes. 2 at 330g and 1 at 500 or so. The larger weight (long skinniesh batard) sounds interesting to me.
Total dough of 660 gr. I really liked the country baguette recipe with the sourdough levain and a yeast kicker. I cut the yeast in half and still stuck to the time recommended. I substituted 5% rye to help reduce the gluten and because I like the taste. I thought it was better baking it straight through rather than the retard in bulk like I did with the last attempt.
A long time ago I discovered that if I reversed the pan so the the convection air flow passed over the flap rather than in a direction that is trying to open the flap, then I had a better ear. It is now so automatic that I don't even think about it. When I pick up the pan to go the oven it gets reversed between the counter and the oven rack. Of course that means that I can never remember which loaf was proofed where and can barely recreate which loaf got slashed first (or last).
From Martin Philips book, “Breaking Bread: A Baker's Journey Home in 75 Recipes”.
“ Oh, the baguette. What could be so hard? In baking there is a triple-salchow, the bread equivalent of jumping from toe tip to land on one foot, on skates, on ice, no falling. The baguette is that jump. I say this not to discourage you, but only in order to frame its making, to acknowledge that the baguette is at the center of our craft; it is our basic benchmark of skills in the artisan bread world. It is the elusive bird that lands on your palm one day and drops something on your head the next. . . . I have made thousands and thousands and still hope, every single time I touch them, that they might be better, more consistent, and more beautiful. And, knowing the challenge, living daily in the place where what I want to be and what I actually am leave room for improvement, I can offer encouragement: Judge your success by the faces of your eaters. Are they happily crunching and munching? Did they ignore your uneven shaping or imperfect crumb structure? Of course they did. So take that as an endorsement and give it another shot, and another, and another.”
I didn't hardly touch dough yesterday and couldn't handle it..so while the real dough is proofing slowly, I threw together a half batch of Reinharts French Bread with Pate Ferment from Crust and Crumb. It was intended to test my oven too and I thought this would be a throw away batch but I'm pretty pleased.
I've watched a bunch of shaping and scoring videos and was trying to play close attention to creating a uniform shape and a tight skin. Trevor Wilson has an article that states he will leave loaves exposed to the air for about 10 minutes to create a tighter skin for scoring. I got some right and I got some wrong.
The decent looking one is my last attempt. Also of interest is the importance of a good score- as the one on the far right show. Huge difference in oven spring on that one area alone. (Unless of course I don't know what I'm talking about- if so please correct me!)
Was the scoring deeper on that one or the skin was more taut. Your shape looks good. Learning something everytime you bake is building a solid foundation. Keep us posted.
Jen, scoring is progressively getting better. The one on the right is right up my alley. Like the golden color.
Can’t wait to see what you produce next...
So the V should open towards the door is how I understand it.
edit: this was meant to respond to Dan’s question above
I followed the original recipe. The only difference between my first attempt and this one is: 10 minutes of slap and fold vs 20 minutes for the original post; no shattered glass; possibly less steam; longer baguettes at 20 inches.
The flavour is quite good and the crust is chewier than I'd like. But they're quite nice. I still need a lot of practice to evenly shape and improve the score. The crumb was much nicer the first time around - I think that was due to the 20 minutes of slap and fold. I think the next time I'll go back to 20 minutes and add a bit of IDY to the dough as others have suggested. It's not likely I'll get my hands on lower protein flour at this point as a way of reducing chew so I'll try to get there using some dry yeast.
How did you load those giants?
Did you bake all 4 at once?
They are very impressive.
Thanks Dan.. I did bake them on that stone in the picture. I didn't realize i had a long stone in the basement until I accidentally came across it this week - good timing. I loaded them onto a single sheet of parchment and used the back of a pan as my peel to slide them on sideways.
You're a brave man to go after the long batons so soon.
As far as French Folds. It isn't the time that you spend folding, IMO, but the number of folds that you do. Excluding the 5 min. or so rest period halfway through, with practice you could knock off ex. 300 FFs in 6-7 minutes. It is more difficult meeting that time criterion with a stiffer dough than this. The hands and repetitive rhythm will create a relatively rapid system of movement. (I enjoy FFs, but really wouldn't want to spend 20 minutes doing them.)
Congratulations, alan
Thanks Alan - I actually didn't mind the S&F process. As you say you get into a trance.. I mean rhythm. :) I just had a thought as I looked at my scores. As I looked at them in the picture above I must be scoring from side to side rather than exclusively on the top ridge of the baguette. By "rolling" the score over the top of the dough I'm not properly releasing the built up rise within the dough. Am I right in thinking I'll get a better rise all thinks being equal if i restrict scoring to the middle top of the baguette as I score down it's length? IE: more long than diagonally if that makes sense. And it's defiantly harder consistently shaping a long baton. I think I might try smaller thicker batons next time. Having inhaled one at lunch I need to improve the crumb to crust ratio to give me more crumb.
Although the scoring looks to initiate on the "side" of the top, you may have actually scored them in their appropriate "lane" on the top. Next time try to remember to snap a photo of the bread after scoring, but before baking and then compare.
Look at the unbaked dough in this post and where the score lines are, and then what the bread looks like after baking, and how it could seem as though the score starts from the side of the top, but actually doesn't. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64622/community-bake-baguettes-alfanso#comment-461411
And yes, longer than traveling across the roll in the dough, and as narrow as reasonable between scores, trying to over lap by as much as 1/3 of the previous score.
I'm the opposite in that I decided on baguettes specifically because there's more crust than crumb. And also for the challenge.
All things being equal this was still a fine fine bake.
And not quite trance but there is a certain zen to the action once the rhythm is established. While I'm doing it the world seems like a better place.
Thanks for all this Al..
Your crumb looks great as usual. The overall appearance is quite nice. I like the long wands look and admire your next level baguette progress. I hope you will try the dry yeast and see where it goes. I am curious to see what effect it will have on your well developed gluten strategy. Let's keep posting here since there is no end date on this CB. I have a Bouabsa yeasted version mixed up to bake tomorrow for posterity's sake.
A word of advice, is to sprinkle semolina on the parchment paper and use the transfer peel to straighten them out. I am curious to see how you loaded them in the oven.
I'll post here the next time I make them. Looking forward to your bouabsa version. As I said above to Dan, I loaded them onto parchment and then used the back of a tray as my peel to slip the entire thing on to the stone sideways. I took the parchment off after 12 minutes and removed the wet towel tray at the same time.
Wow those are super impressive Frank, well done.
Benny
They need work but we're getting there..
after taking another longer look. The scoring looks to me like it still needs a deeper slash to open up the bloom. A lower hydration requires a gash to release the pressure. Take note of how far Alfanso sinks the blade in his picture. The width of the crust between the openings needs to be thinner like you observed by staying more in the center lane and overlapping 1/3 so it won't be as constricted. The angle might even need to be more towards the horizontal. Small bread is a lot of small details.
Went with Martin Philip’s Poolish Baguettes. WOW, does commercial yeast move fast!
The Bad
Another problematic bake. I strayed from Matin’s method and did an autolyse. Problem was the dough didn’t have enough water to fully hydrate the flour. The poolish was so large. It should have been mixed in as instructed to fully hydrate the dough. The dough was mixed similar to the way butter is cut into a pie crust. Mostly hydrated but not completely. Thought it might be a good experiment. It was, with terrible results :-( Definitely learned something. The levain was difficult to incorporate and the dough never did give up the pea sized bits of flour.
Also the dough never did come together well. It was weak and too airy. Shaping was difficult. Less yeast is probably a good call. Maybe even, much less.
We are encouraged to post the good, the bad, and the ugly. Others learn valuable lessons from our shared mistakes. Here’s a tip - make sure to thoroughly hydrate your autolyse.
The Good
This bread was the closest ever baked that came very close to the kind of “French Bread” that we make Po Boys with in the New Orleans area. The bite and chew was very nice. The crumb was squeezable soft, kind of like Charmin. When squeezed the loaf gave in without much resistance. The crust was thin, but not crackly. Maybe one day I’ll get crackly.
The scoring went extremely well. I went back to a hand made lame with a scoop bend in the blade. Scoring was reasonably pleasant considering the dough was never chilled. Cuts were decisive and confidence is growing. The crust busted ears in 2.5 - 3 minutes, but the oven spring was so huge it swelled up and covered the ears. A prettey good problem to have, IMO.
The Ugly
I can’t say anything was ugly.
The smaller (330g) baguette was baked with an aluminum cover and had 15 seconds of injected steam.
The 515g baguette was baked on the stone with a steam pan inverted about 7 inches above on a rack. Steam was provided by 8 ounces of boiling water poured into another steam pan filled with lava rocks.
Both breads bake at 550F from beginning to end. They took 17 & 18 minutes.
The larger sized baguette seems better suited for sandwiches. I know the French would frown, but...
I sincerely hope that no bakers shy away from any of our Community Bakes because they think they skills are not up to the challenge. Community Bakes are not a competition, but a vehicle for learning. Everyone is encouraged to join in and learn along with us.
MTLoaf made an observation that held true here. Commercial yeast makes the softest bread. I don’t think SD can come close when a light bite and a soft chew is desired.
Danny
Danny - I suspect that your observation about commercial yeast is related to the very high growth rate and numerical population density of yeast cells in dough made with commercial yeast. Could you get there with sourdough? Don't know. Haven't tried. Might just be a place where a hybrid loaf makes sense. But I have had difficulty using a small enough quantity of commercial yeast that it doesn't dominate the flavor.
Your crust is pretty dark and your time x temperature product is pretty high so I would expect a fairly dry crumb with fairly thick and distinctively flavored crust.
No so, Doc. The crumb is super soft and moist, not gummy. KendalM told me that he also likes a light bite and a soft chew. He said the way to get is was a fast bake. It seems to be working exactly like he said.
The loaf when squeezed had some give. Not mushy but much more squeezable than typical SD. Couldn’t call the crust thin and crispy, but it is headed in that direction.
The more I bake CY, the more I like SD...
Yea, any amount of CY messes with the flavor IMO. I have had decent results with SD and a 0.3% CY kicker. I learned this while baking The Approachable Loaf during our last CB. Much more and it harms the flavor according to my taste.
Danny - thanks for that. I will think about why.
For 600g baguettes, if I go longer than 20 min @ 500°F the crumb is dry and the crust very dark. For smaller baguettes (say 350g) I suspect it would be similar. So I have to consider the hypothesis that without strong convection, you get a different result. It certainly makes sense that higher temperatures and a shorter bake time should produce a darker crust without severly impacting the crumb temperature.
There's a lot to like about your bake. Well done. !
I can almost taste it now. Looks like the pan above blocked some of the top heat on the big boy. Why the blast furnace baking temperature? 550 seems off the charts. I mean maybe for the preheat but not for the entire bake. Is it a bold bake preference? Are you one of those people on a camping trip that toasts your marshmallows to cinders by sticking them directly in the fire and blowing out the flames? I like a dark crust on sourdough loaves but not so much on a yeasted bread.
Seeing that tablecloth makes me think of the South. Lay some paper down and dump the crawfish out with the some corn and potatoes and one of those batons rouge.
You might say the crumb overtook the ears- but I see the ears there! Just when you despair that they'll never happen, there it is. Well done.
I played with a CY and SD combo yesterday too. It felt like a runaway train after all sourdough for 2 weeks. Tasted like the best supermarket baguette. After two weeks of chewy sourdough baguettes, some were relieved.
Thanks for sharing the things that didn't go well, too. There is a steep learning curve here, it seems. I figure if I throw about 10,000 lbs of dough at it, eventually I'll figure it out.
Love seeing what everyone is up to!
Which why you really only need about 0.3% of the stuff in a recipe like this. Oh that's IDY not ADY who's equivalent I think is about 0.5%. Btw danny - if you you're gonna give your loaves the royal heat treatment at 550, can I recommend you evacuate your steam around 7-8 mins then drop your temperature to about 450. It's really only (imho) warranted at the beginning - those nice grignes your seeing (as I've said before) should be present by that time. There's no more expansion happening after this point. Btw nice crumb duder !
Using what is probably 00 flour but rebranded and clearly intended for the US market yet available from my local UK supermarket. If this is Pivetti's 00 then were looking at 11% protein and W 180 – 220. This flour was very absorbent and the final dough was very elastic despite the modest protein content. It smoothed out pretty quickly in the mix, a sign of low gluten... 67.5% hydration and SD leavened, I'm moderately ok with the result, but I would have liked more volume. Adding malt probably would have improved things and I could have easily handled a higher hydration. However, the dough was a pleasure work with and easy to roll out but greater extensibility would have been welcomed for this type of bread.
Each stick is around 16 inches and they were scaled at 280g.
Long and cold process seeded with Lievito Madre.
The crumb showed a slight creamy white colour, but this is 00 so it will naturally be whiter.
Original formula but based on Giorilli's methods.
Poolish with LM - 18 hours at 14C
8g LM
50g flour
50g water
0.2g salt
Final dough - cold bulk overnight
288g flour
180g water
100g poolish
15g LM
6.1g salt
I unfortunately don't have enough free time to try this again.
I love having the input and wisdom of seasoned hands with way more experienced than myself be a part of these activities. For a person who likely does not tackle baguettes very often, if t all, I'm quite impressed by the results. INSIDE AND OUT.
Come back anytime you have the time!
alan
You are very kind. Following a long hiatus and revival of my madre starter I wasn't sure about making these but Danny's words of encouragement to join the community bake were persuasive!
I'm very glad you approve of the results and I'll be sure to post an update when I bake again.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael, the crust appears very thin. Is that correct and is the crust crispy? If so, how was it produced? Flour?
Have some French T65 on order. I am hoping that the low gluten flour will provide a pleasant experience that I have yet to experience.
Gluten (protein) content: ~ 10%
Mineral Content: ~ 0.65%
Question - is the SD levain increasing the elasticity of our dough?
That's right Danny, a thin and crispy crust, although as typical the following day the crust turned to leather!
The acidity developed within a SD levain will definitely contribute to improved elasticity. Notice the small percentage of salt added in my formula, this is probably done to dial down acid development which in turn should help with extensibility.
If you didn't already know I suspect the specs of that T65 are probably on dry basis (0% moisture).
Levito Muscolare
If the elaborations weren’t so precise and intimidating with the idea of something blowing up in my face. I would love to work with the strength of your LM someday. Haven’t seen that flour in my neck of the woods but I would drive across the state for your discard. Thanks for finding the time to contribute to the Baguette Battalion
Haha! It is powerful stuff. Perhaps someday you'll venture into this field. Learning the ins and outs of LM is very rewarding IMO.
It was a pleasure to contribute and offer my take on a different type of process. The community spirit here on this forum is second to none!
I've always thought that if you took the amount of protein in the Nutritional Values, and divided it by the Serving Size, that would tell you the protein content.....yes? No? If so, this would be 10%? Seems on the weak side, but I'd love to know if it's this easy to figure out protein content of flour where you might have trouble finding the specs?
R
Rich, no.
The problem with that is they round the numbers. So, 10.6% protein is shown as 11%. It’s a shame that flour distributors don’t give us pertinent information.
Antilope put this together back in 2013
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17045/protein-content-flour#comment-261314
This should be on the USA baker's Required Reading List, like, forever.
Check it out, cub scout...
Don't think I had stumbled across that one before. Bookmarked! :) Thanks, Alfanso.
R
Bookmarked that one too. So many great contributions like that here at TFL that go almost unnoticed. Thar is gold in these hills!
As Danny pointed out there is the issue of rounding figures. In the UK and EU our nutritional values are given as per 100 grams of product, which is much more useful than the figures given per serving as typical in the US.
I strongly suspect the flour I used to be a rebranded version of this product: Pivetti 00.
I found this image:
11g protein is low but the gluten it has is high quality and as with all Italian (Triticum aestivum) flours, well balanced - resistance vs extensibility (P/L ~.55).
Alveograph: W 180 - 220. So that is about right for baguettes.
Ash: 00 (0.55% max), So this is whiter / more refined than T65.
Michael
@Michael,
I have never used an Alveograph so I am totally unfamiliar with what it can do. The methodology seems designed for a lab rather than a bakery. I read that P is the pressure at which the bubble bursts and L is the height of the bubble when it bursts, but I don't know what the units are. If P is in N/m^2 and L is in meters, then P/L is in N/m^3 and I have no sense of what that means when I handle dough. It has the units of a spring constant so rationally captures the springiness of the dough. It would seem to me that strain rate needs to be taken into account since (I think) extensibility is really measuring viscosity.
Can you provide some hints?
I have not personally used the Chopin alveograph either, it's not a typical piece of equipment in my field. But all Italian millers use it and formulate flours to meet its specific parameters. I don't believe any other country mills flours to such high specificity.
The physical properties of dough can be described as viscoelastic and in context the property of extensibility is specific to dough rheology concepts. Extensibility can be defined as the degree of stretch before breaking and that's what the alveograph measures as L. Whereas viscosity describes flow rate / fluidity.
The results recorded from testing with the alveograph produces an alveogram. This graph shows P (y-axis) and L (x-axis), they are both measured in millimetres (mm). L describes the growth of the dough bubble and P indicates resistance to deformation based on pressure.
Units:
P (mm h2o)
L (mm)
W (10^-4 Joules)
As the test begins a line is drawn, P will increase as the dough resists deformation. The peak height (P) is where the dough resistance has equalized with input pressure, the line then descends as the resistance has been overcome. At the same time L is drawn horizontally as the dough bubble expands. The test is complete when the dough bubble ruptures.
The P/L ratio describes the resistance proportional to extension length. It is a dimensionless property but for those familiar, it's a good indicator of flour performance and specifically how 'balanced' the flour is.
Flour milled from hard North American wheats can be characterized as having high P/L ratios. They are typically more resistant than softer European wheats.
I have extracted an uploaded this for you: I. Akyar - Wide Spectra of Quality Control-Intech (2011)_356-358.pdf
Michael
I found what appear to be two different test methods and instruments that seem to be getting at the same dough properties and thus flour desirability for a particular purpose.
The extensograph produces R, E, and R/E.
The alveograph produces P, L, and P/L.
And both systems derive their own energy parameter W for one and and Area Under the Curve (AUC) for the other.
Do you know if R/E values be compared with P/L values? Potentially with some means to convert one to the other? I have more experience with materials where stress and strain and their relationship are the parameters of interest, so viscoelastic materials and non-neutonian fluids are strange things and I have to do some mental gymnastics to try to convert what I am familiar with to try to understand the different properties that are important to the new area. As I see it dough has a classic stress/strain curve at small strain values but under constant stress exhibits creep. When dough is subjected to stress levels adequate to induce creep, then the strain at failure is the measure of extensibility and W or AUC is the measure of flour strength. And I suspect, but have not found a reference that explains how, all this varies as you change strain rate. I found references to vibrational measurements of elasticity at 2 Hz and allusions to using ultrasonic velocity and damping to measure the same properties. My objective is to develop some sense of what P/L = .5 means in a piece of dough and what it feels like to shape a loaf made from dough with that property. Perhaps sample testing of known flours might be one way to get there.
Your thoughts?
Alveograph-Demo.pdf
@Michael - Wow! It really has more utility than I imagined. Makes me appreciate custom flour blends for all of the parameter adjustments that can be tailored. And the graphics provide a much better feel for how the resulting curves relate to what is being measured. Plus the curves that show the impact of additives are useful as well. Will store this away for reference.
Some evidence to my above statement regarding the propensity of North American flours to have high P/L ratios i.e. high tenacity. In contrast to Italian milled common wheat (Triticum aestivum) flours which are specified to a target P/L of 0.55 and therefore balanced.
8 US flours and specifications:
Flours
Protein
Ash
P/L
W
Falling
Number
Control
9
.46
.45
240
288
# 1
11.6
.49
1.45
333
296
# 2
11.7
.57
.71
303
605
# 3
12.7
.57
.76
373
279
# 4
14.6
.56
.9
489
271
# 5
12.8
.55
1.02
391
284
# 6
11.9
.56
1.04
340
313
# 7
11.6
.45
1.29
309
285
# 8
12
.5
1.09
313
702
source: http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf
Bake 7
I got some sense and dropped diastatic malt for now. It isn't that big a deal when I can't score and my oven hates me!
Anything I'm testing needs to be retested but a general direction is good enough for now.
And I'm simplifying the process while I look at individual things to improve.
I'm unhappy with my crumb. It is not as open as I would like and I've made a *few* batches of this dough. It comes out remarkably the same each time. I was reading about dough strength versus extensibility and that they must be in balance with baguettes or you can't get decent oven spring. It occured to me that my commercial flour has ascorbic acid which increased dough strength. It could be working against me. And I need a flour with malt so I put my Morbread flour up against KAF AP and Winco AP.
I deleted the original photos to soon. Lost the definition here. Coming out of autolyse there was a marked difference in the dough. The gluten appeared to already be lightly kneaded prior to any real handling. This followed suit throughout the process. The gluten developed earlier and the dough was easier to handle throughout. KAF and Winco were stickier and shaggy going into BF. The definition on the photo was lost.
I listened to the dough too. It took 4 hours to get a 30% rise.
As expected, Morbread didn't brown up as well. Anything else is attributable to lousy scores. And I know my scores aren't even...I was trying to score quickly which didn't necessarily come out well.
Crumb was fairly consistent with KAF being more open than Morbread and Winco possibily better than KAF. Hard to tell and it could be a difference in proofing instead of actual flour. Also perhaps the Morbread would do better with less manual gluten development. It appears to develop more easily owing to the ascorbic acid.
The good- all flours made good bread. Going to use one with diastatic malt though. And the wee itty bitty start of ears are there.
The bad- expected more difference.
The ugly- my oven. I need to insulate below my baking stone better. The tops aren't hardening early now but the bottoms scorch a bit and even are a but u-shaped from where that happened.
For crumb experts and anyone else...what should my next steps be to improve the crumb? Decrease manual gluten development? Increase hydration? Other factors I haven't thought of? I'm sure the problem comes down to the extensibility versus strength issue. I just don't know how to solve it.
Learning so much- many thanks to everyone.
Jen, in the future when posting images enter a number in the “width” box. The height will auto fill. 625 fills most of the post sideways. Anything less that 300 is generally too small to retain any definition. We are unable to visualize your crumb with any detail. At least, I can’t. 350 to 400 is good.
Could you repost the crumb shots at 625. It’ll be like going to the IMAX. :-)
You nailed Morbread on the head. It contains AA and the flour is best suited to long fermentation and very strong doughs. Baguettes use neither. Love, love, love Morbread for SFSD, Five-Grain Levain, ect., though.
Your scoring looks great to me. Fantastic slashing can’t over come deficient dough. The stars have to align for baguettes...
The amount to learn is staggering...as is my growing flour collection.
Thanks for the heads up. I will look more into posting photos properly.
KAF AP
Winco aka 9.7
Fine tuning the oven set up will help even more. Your scoring looks good. Short easy answer for opening up the crumb is add more water. I find that an AP only will max out at 75% for me. A shorter bulk ferment improves extensibility and you can make up the time on the final proof. It is hard to keep the dough temps down in the low 70's in the summer. My kitchen is at proofing box temps right now and the warmth will make the dough more elastic.
Thank you. I was wondering if there was anything else I was missing. I'll start increasing hydration today and see what happens.
I live in the United States Pacific NW with AC. Our weather is never really set. Temps and humidity vary day to day greatly. It keeps one on their toes.
I am in Montana and no one has AC for our not so brief anymore summers. 85 yesterday 60 today and raining. Try the recipe I just posted it is pretty tolerant until the shaping stage. I would recommend 70% water at first and work up gradually.
I think you get our weather with about a 2 day delay. It was unheard of before but it keeps getting warmer.
I'll try your recipe. I popped in some 75% hydration dough. I have ears. Finally.
You have begun to open Pandora's Box. And you are discovering the much higher dimensionality of the problem than you initially understood. So recognize that the only way you are going to master it is to get a personal formula that you can execute flawlessly week after week and you understand why you see variation in the end product when you didn't intentionally introduce any change in the formula. Only when you get there can you begin to introduce small changes in a single parameter and do either sequential trials or split batches for comparison. And repeat and repeat and measure and photograph and refer to your extensive catalog of notes so that you understand what the partial derivatives are of the things you adjust. There are far more knobs and switches than you currently understand. Randomly trying new things will be hugely frustrating and unproductive. Make a good bread. Then hunt around for ways to make it better. Then baseline the best you can do and do it again. Figure on 100 batches to master it at some level, and 10,000 batches to master a somewhat larger fraction of the space of all breads.
I have a compete record of the 126 batches that it took before I felt like I understood the general sensitivity coefficients for a limited number of variables associated with sourdough bread. Some things I had explored in depth and some things I had backed away from. But the data is still there to see if I have tried something before with notes about the experiment design, parameter values, and results. Many people here on TFL were incredibly helpful, for which I will always be in their debt.
This formula is everything I desire in a baton. What Janedo gave to DmSnyder who may as well have been Moses coming down the mountain with the tablets when he developed this recipe. It is my go to formula. For this bake I scaled it down to make two longish side loaders.
370 KAF AP 6 grams of Fava bean flour 280 grams water 8 grams salt 1/8 tsp IDY Autolyse for 20 minutes with the yeast then the salt and 15 grams of water that was held back. Mixed with the Rubaud method until it just comes together. Three folds every 20 minutes and up to an hour of floor time or less if it is warm like now. I just want to see a little movement to know the yeast is starting to work before retarding in the fridge for 21 hours. Divide cold and letter fold seam up rest 20 to 30 minutes and shape. The proof is seam up and less than an hour and baked at 480 on a stone with a sheet pan above with boiling water poured in after loading and removed after ten minutes. Baked for 24 minutes total.
The dough had risen more than I would have liked in the fridge, almost doubling but was still manageable. I remembered to photograph the scoring this time.
Just removed the steam
Crumb shot to follow
I feel somewhat responsible for taking this CB down a spur line with the yeast thrown in but I would have been remiss to not to include the Bouabsas in what has become a rather long compendium of baguettetry. My last bake will be an attempt at the recipe at the top and a salute to the General of the baguette battalion Alfanso
"rabbit hole". Because it was the responsible thing to do. The CB has already gone off in a half dozen different directions, and as long as the subject is baguettes, short or long, the real goal is to make the flowers more attractive to the bees! By hook or by crook. I'm sure that we all think that this has been a darned successful endeavor and intro to a small group of folks who may have previously been too intimidated by the "mighty" baggie. But aren't now. Or needed a refresher course.
This is the easiest formula in the pantheon of great breads. One just needs to be willing to mix this all AP IDY bread to get why it is so great. Not much of a leap regardless of how attached to levains they are.
I have the strongest of suspicions that the magic 21 hour retard mark is nothing more than a scheduling requirement for M. Bouabsa, designed to work through the remainder of his bakery schedule without activities or bakes stepping on another's toes.
The angle of the two long baguettes above reminds me of being on my ship 50 years ago and looking down the long barrels of the twin 5" guns on the ship's mounts. A bit less intimidating, but no less impressive.
Al - lots of talk about using IDY in making baguettes has me saying 'why not' for my next weekend bake. Can you clear the air? Should I add a bit of IDY to the original posted recipe, or only use IDY without starter/levain? Amounts, proportions? or use the recipe above in MT's post that David originally posted? Guidance please. Thanks in advance!
The only rules are there aren't any, just guidelines and observing what others have gotten away with. There's a hundred ways to do something right and probably twice as many to do something wrong.
There are a few formulae out there that use a combination of the two - a levain in combination with an IDY (or a poolish or a biga). Just a matter of proportion. For example the guidelines which I laid out way up front for the Hamelman w/WW call for a retard of 12-16 hours). The Bouabsa calls for a retards of ~21 hours. The Bouabsa uses the minuscule 0.16% IDY as its only leavening agent, and look at what the heck it does!.
Sure, add away, to this formula f you wish, but be very judicious in how much you add. If the thought is to convert from a levain based bread to an all IDY, then keep in mind that commercial yeasts are more potent than levains when it comes to rise. Can I suggest how much to use? Maybe, but it would likely be just as much of a swag but keep the IDY to no more than 1.0% .
Or you could sub out the levain for a poolish and get the benefit of both a commercial yeast as well as a preferment.
Ok, I think I'll go the starters-anonymous route and try the non alcoholic IDY version. Let's see what shall be.. stay tuned.. next weekend I suspect..
PS. I just thought - do people slap and fold with IDY? Is that a dumb question? I just thought why not, but then thought maybe it's not something you do.. I don't pay attention to IDY recipes so don't know.. just curious..
That is how I develop my IDY pizza crust. I mentioned earlier, I enjoy the one handed version S&F for a dough this small.
It's just another way of mixing, so sure. With very few exceptions, which beg for a mechanical mixer - like ciabatta or trying to incorporate a 90% biga dough, or a dough with a large percentage of grated cheese, etc. All other dough I mix is with FFs/S&Fs.
(it's how I release the emotional tension of the day after being asked dumb questions ?). I grew up all my pe-adult years afraid to raise my hand for fear of asking a dumb question, and missed out on a lot that I was curious or unclear about. That changed in adulthood. A 180. At work I sat in on a ton of meetings where I knew the answer but also knew others in the room either weren't going to ask the question or didn't know the question to ask, or the chair forgot to mention it. So I'd ask it, and the chair was clear on what I was doing since we worked closely together. I wouldn't say there are no dumb questions because we've all lived through doozies, but this wasn't one of them.
Not something to be on the receiving end of. The ease of assembly is a lot of the appeal. I often make a batch to throw in the oven after baking other breads because the stone and oven are already hot. Yes the 21 hours is not a strict requirement but controlling the bulk rise is since they rely mostly on oven spring. The crumb on these was not as open as normal and the optional fava flour did not deliver the goods this time but the wheaty flavor that the process extracts from white flour is nirvana. Using the same method and including a levain is a nice way to take the flavor further for those that need to keep their starter happy.
.. you have "mad skills".. wow.. Those look perfect - waiting for the crumb shot. How much did each weigh? Great score, colour, shaping and development.. very nice!
Was not as open as usual and this one got a little mashed in the center. It is a somewhat delicate dough when pushed to the 75% water. They scale out at 290gr and ended up just short of my 17" stone. If you try this recipe keep the dough from doubling and the proof is not long because they rely mostly on oven spring.
The crust shatters when you cut them. Maybe could have rested or proofed these a little longer.
Thanks! Nice crumb just the same. Olive oil, fresh tomatoes, fresh basil, sea salt - I can taste it now!
is where some of these will end up. Pesto, tomatoes, parmesan, maybe some basaltic vinegar for spice.
Don, have you noticed that early on in the bake the ears rise high, but as the oven spring continues they become somewhat “absorbed” back into the loaf? In other words, the scores are overtaken by the rising dough from the oven spring.
Also, since the Bouabsa is bulk retarded, did you find the dough at shaping more extensible? It seems thelong rest would have facilitated that.
Thanks for the scoring image.
Alan, should we err on the more shallow or more deep side when slashing. I realize dough characteristics dictate thta also. Is it generally easier to raise a shallow ear or a deeper ear?
and the lack of a fully developed gluten make them not fight back. I have overworked this same recipe and they can be quite elastic. As Doc said earlier it is a delicate dance.
As a general rule, the stiffer the dough, the deeper the slash need to be.
I like the bulbous grigne and the well developed ear but this dough seem to rip apart sometimes from the oven spring.
A slash is just a slash
A score is just a score
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.
The difference between a shallow score and a deep one could be no more than perhaps 1/8th to 1/4 inch deeper.
As far as scores go, this is my take, probably nothing uniquely mine (or Id' be darned disappointed). High hydration doughs naturally have a greater amount of water relative to the flour than low hydration doughs. And water weighs more than flour, volumes considered. therefore a deeper but less angled cut from a score may well be more prone to flapping closed from the weight of the water contained. And therefore that is why I believe the sharper angle is recommended.
I think that if one creates a good taught skin from surface tension without constricting or mangling the eventual crumb, then even a shallow score will be sufficient as the gasses inside push outward.
Whether I go shallower or more straight on my scores, I never try to insert the blade tip more than (I just measured to be sure) about 1/4 inch. Which seems so small - except when you hold a tape measure up to the blade and see for yourself.
The absurdly gassy dough I tried yesterday - it didn't make a whit of difference because the dough was so over-active and the surface tension was too "mellow".
In summary, and this is just another SWAG, the same depth is my take, just how that depth of blade is applied makes a difference. Of course, to be clear, we're discussing just scoring baguettes here and certainly does not apply the same across the board for all dough and treatments.
- or more work required! Much to learn:
It looks like baggies are a tough nut to crack!
Lance
Were you thinking, “Bloomers” when scoring? ...just messing with you.
Baguettes are so different from other breads I hope you give these dreaded beast another go.
Calling my buddy at Pleasant Hills Grain tomorrow about the mixer. The hook is almost set.
Danny
I feel like a rookie baker! I might give them one more chance!
Oh and add overproofed to the fault list.
Lance
to the party Lance. I found some fava beans at the local Natural Food store. They were not the flat wide ones but a small round version that sounded like popcorn popping while going through my MockMill 100. It had the same yellow look as the BRM Garbanzo/Fava but didn't produce the same results.
Your crumb looks good just rotate the peel 90 degrees the next time you score them ;-)
imperfect shaping and one can still get a good looking baguette. But the scoring is the unforgivable part of the equation. You should look at what MT and my baggies look like before hitting the oven to give you a clear sense of what we do vs. what you did. Also, review the short sections of video at the top of this whole dang thread. And then there's David Snyder's scoring tutorial on TFL to help.
I will say that if there's any rookie mistake to baguettes, you fall right in line with the majority of beginners.
Nice looking crumb, and that will take you far. And if they're not looking A-1, just cut them into rounds and serve them that way. No one will ever be the wiser.
Hey Dan and MT - I think that we just hooked another fish on the baguette line! The bait must be incredible!
Like Atlantic Salmon was to fishing. The Sport of kings and the King of bread. Nothing more eye catching in the bread world to me. The look is what attracts the fish. I don't want to go down the phallic symbol path, I will leave that to the shrinks. Some see us flyfishers and bagueteers as effete but if we can spread the craft and share some fun let's roll with it.
I mixed up a batch of dough at 67% hydration 11.7% pre-fermented flour, 2% salt, using 100% high gluten white flour. But did a couple of things differently:
1. stopped mixing as soon as the dough came off the bottom of the bowl
2. after ~40 min of BF I split the batch into two parts and finished a 1 hr BF on one half and a 2 hr BF on the other half.
But since they came from the same batch, the proof times were going to be different. In this instance I over-proofed both of them. The biggest difference is in the crumb. The first photo below is the short BF (60 min) loaf; the second photo is the baguette that had a 2 hr BF. The dough was shapped into 300g baguettes and proofed. The first batch proofed for ~2 hr before baking. The second batch was shaped into 300g baguettes as well and was proofed for about 90 min (for equivalence it should have been 1 hr but the oven was busy with the first batch). Oven cycle was 500°F w/ steam for 6 min then 450°F with the steam generator off for an additional 11 min. Crumb texture is good, crust is typical sourdough crust (well toasted, fairly thick, crunchy, flavorful). All baguettes were shaped to ~20" lengths, (constrained by my 21" pans).
So next time I will use the 2 hr BF and shorten the proof time, but I may also reduce the dough temperature. The dough was quite extensible and handled easily, was very easy to shape but was so extensible that it was hard to get a uniform diameter, and was floppy when transferring to the pans. It would have benefitted from being retarded to slow down the proof somewhat and I suspect that chilling them would have made it easier to handle when it came time to transfer to the pan.
The thing that surprises me is the irregularity of the hole sizes in the crumb of the short BF batch. Anybody have an idea why?
I am confounded by how open the crumb the crumb is with 67% in the first place. It doesn't lineup with my reasoning that open crumb is related to hydration. I haven't worked with high gluten flour much and was under the impression that it required more kneading to develop fully. To venture a guess in this riddle is a step through the looking glass into wonderland. Maybe the longer fermentation filled in the gaps in the dough or it was a shaping issue. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.
These are the two that didn't get sectioned (both from the long BF batch). As you would expect for over-proofed baguettes that were too soft to score by somebody with a new lame who rarely uses an interrupted slash. Good oven spring, just not enough tension to get the surface to fracture. Soft dough was impossible to straighten out once it hit the pan so sort of wandering from side to side. Just a little bit of an ear at one end of both loaves but nothing you could use to pick them up with.
Anything I missed? Or different approaches to fixing the defects?
When I occasionally fail to have sufficient surface tension and/or over proofing, the scores may spread flat as yours have. For those unfamiliar at rolling our a full length baguette, including me, there is at the added challenge to getting a consistent full roll across the length of the baton.
The main inconsistency in the crumb seems to me to be where the batons are pinched, and from an over proofed crumb structure and/or a heavier hand while rolling which compressed the dough in the upper photo. If you work mainly with boules and batards, this is not the same occupational hazard as with batons.
You refer to a high gluten flour which should give the dough more elasticity rather than your stated extensibility. A standard French baguette typically weighs in at 350g-380g before baking, so your lighter weight may have contributed to the difficulty in getting a consistent shape down the barrel of the baton.
You certainly have the scoring in "lane" and overlap correctly and your 2nd baguette in the Delta Time post has great open crumb at ay hydration, but especially for a 67% dough.
When you say "hit the pan" are you referring to moving from couche to oven peel with a hand peel/flipping board? If so, the hand peel in combination with the open hand is an excellent way to get the baton to straighten before oven loading.
Dough was warm, kitchen was warm, I was doing other things in parallel. Was not uncovering and checking the shaped loaves and there was not much flour on the couche so when the time came to transfer to the pan, the loaf was a little difficult to separate from the couche, then that sticky line made it impossible to slide the loaf off the transfer peel and I had to almost invert it to get it to fall onto the pan so now essentially stuck to the pan there was not much I could do to slide it sideways to line it up. I felt pretty good that it wasn't worse, but the impact is certainly visible in the end result. I don't use parchment paper as an intermediary. The dough sits on the pan for about a minute after being brushed with water and then a sprinkling of kosher salt which the water helps to hold in place so that it doesn't blow off in the oven. When the oven indicates that it is hot and the steam generator has filled the oven (which is more a measure of the boiler water temperature than anything else), I slash the loaves, reverse the pan, slide it into the oven and shut the door.
I will go with a little larger loaves next time, probably 345g to get close to the same dough weight per inch of loaf that Danny achieved, and probably adjust the pre-shape to get a little closer to final size and reduce the need to stretch too much more on final shape.
I am happy with the 17 minute oven cycle and the resulting color/taste.
So a few adjustments and some retard time during the last part of proofing to stiffen up the dough before it is slashed. So we will see sometime later this week.
Are you open to using parchment? I don't have a picture at this time but I've gone a little OCD on this....I've been taking a piece of parchment longer than the length of the dough and creating a crease in the center. I hill it up in the middle like you would a couche. I place one on each side and fold the sides up over the dough and then into the couche. When I bake, I carefully move the parchment until it flattens. Everything stays neat and straight.
But now no longer bake on tile or stone and find it to be an expensive and now unnecessary addition to the process. If I stay focussed it is not an issue. I know better so I take a dope slap and start again.
Took me a week to get around to it but glad I did. I made a few mods to the formula and process:
Otherwise stuck to the challenge. Nice crust, good flavor.
Crumb a bit tighter than I would like, though I have yet to open one of second batch which proofed for an extra 45 minutes. Tastes great, though. Have not had a lot of experience at sub 75% hydrations but I’m encouraged to try more. This dough seemed very easy to handle. I’ll add this formula to my repertoire where Gosselin and Bouabsa (thanks to @dmsnyder) have been my gotos for baguettes & epis.
Thanks, Dan and Alan, for organizing and shepherding...
Phil
Most traditional baguettes hover around the upper 60s for hydration with plenty of room for experiment above the 70 mark. Whether folks are sticking to the posted formula or not, as long as it is close, this is a really tasty crisp crust bread for those whose whole grain "requirements" are not that high.
I love the color of the dark bake. And scoring shows super promise.
alan
Phil, I don’t know your total flour weight, but 2 pre-ferments totaling 746g seems like it would have produced a very extensible dough. Did you find the dough very stretchable when shaping?
I had some trouble with maintaining a consistent circumference on final shape. Frog in a snake’s gullet—lumpy kind of thing... Thought I saw another mention of it upstream of here. Scoring was tres simple.
WOW! 9 bakes. Some people get it right away, and others learn quite quickly. But for those of us that struggle, persistence is the driving force that leads us on.
Used Alan’s take on Hamelman’s SD Formula, but tweaked the whole grains, 83% KAAP, 10% Hard Red Spring Wheat, 5% Spelt, & 2% Fava Beans. Each of the 4) 440g loaves were baked individually. The idea here is to try different baking variables (oven & steam settings, etc..
Settings shared by all 4 bakes
550F for 10 minutes, 550F w/convection for 7-10minutes
Dough was retarded approximately 24 hr.
NOTE - Bake #1 is on the bottom and #4 is on the top.
Bake #1
Pre-steam 90 seconds of injected steam
1.5 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - steam pan was inverted over the dough positioned 2 slots above
90 seconds of steam injected after loading
Bake time - 17 minutes
Bake #2
No injected steam
3 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - No inverted steam pan
Paint dough w/water after scoring
Error - Forgot to turn convection of for the first 5 minutes of bake
Bake time - 16 minutes
Bake #3
2 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - no inverted pan
Dough was not painted w/water
No injected steam
Blocked of top oven vent attempting to hold more steam
Bake time - 17 minutes
Bake #4
Pre-steam 90 seconds of injected steam
1.5 cups of water in pan w/lava rocks - steam pan was inverted over the dough positioned 2 slots above
180 seconds of steam injected after loading
Blocked of top oven vent attempting to hold more steam
Bake time 17 minutes
Only 1 loaf was opened, the other 3 were given away. I’ve baked so many baguettes, I fear I may be running out of eaters. Believe it or not, baguettes are not a favorite of mine or my wife. But the challenge is a great one...
Your skills are on fine display. Your shaping has always been good, your scores are precise, your fermentation is mostly on point, at least wanders no more than the rest of us and now a nice appealing COLOR! I like the bakes with the pan above best. Did you back off the 550? Fava? Is that what they are bitin' on? It's supposed to open the crumb and improve oven spring with a whitening affect on the crumb. We shall see when you filet that trophy.
My new stone that arrived today is going through the new stone drying bake. I am thinking about placing my old stone on the top rack to radiate some heat back down. Perhaps something you might think about to temper the top element going on and off throughout the bake in your oven.
Look forward to seeing the crumb. I am betting on #1
Don, the oven temp was never lowered. I wanted to bake them hot and fast.
I don’t have enough experience with baguettes, but the Fava Beans didn’t appear to make a difference. I mill the dried beans into flour.
Albacore sent me THIS EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of highly extensible dough. I have Nutritional Yeast on order. I’ll try most anything once.
Feed some IDY with a bit of sugar and water. Let it run to exhaustion, then heat it to 160°F to kill the yeast. Use the resulting liquid in your dough. But be careful. It is a powerful reducing agent and you can get really slack dough if you use too much. A slow oxidizer such as ascorbic acid will correct it over a period of time but you have to match the quantities and before you ask, I do not have a table of equivalents. I have a supply of 500mg L-cysteine capsules that I break open if I need a little, though I don't remember using any since 2011.
Your timing is great, Doc.
Yesterday I rec’dTHIS Nutitional Yeast and I read that is has glutathione!
” Nutritional yeast contains the antioxidants glutathione and selenomethionine, both of which can help protect your body from chronic diseases caused by oxidative stress.”
Lance, aka Albacore sent me A LINK that blew me away. Talk about extensible. He also turned me on to Fava Beans. I Tried 2% Fava Beans last bake, but didn’t notice a difference, but I could have missed it.
I will try the combination...
They look very nice. I was wanting to play with steam- excited to see what happens when you open them up.
My theory is that if you throw enough dough at it, eventually you get it right! I have yet to prove that, of course.
would be a welcome addition to just about any Parisian restaurant table. Just about all around goodness. Symmetry scoring, shaping. These have it all. If I had to grab one and take off with it, my choice based on looks alone would be #1.
When does the student become the teacher?
alan
I'm afraid I'll be sent to the principles office for cheating after posting this. It goes down the IDY train pretty far. But the hydration was right- 75%- and I wanted to see what would happen. And I had 6 day old dough in the fridge.
This is the master dough formula by Jeff Hertzberg, MD and Zoe Francois from the Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day series. It is mixed, left to rise and just fall and then refrigerated. Shape from retard, brief rise and bake. Say what you want about it...but the ability to have pizza or rolls or whatever on the table in an hour has a place in my home.
680 g lukewarm water, 10 grams idy, 17 g salt, 910 g ap flour
This was my old Morbread flour so the crumb is soft and squishy but still...not bad in under an hour.
subway" my mother used to say), the point of the CB was less about adherence to the proffered formula and more to try and hook folks like you to come on board and enjoy the ride. The point is less to adhere to the rules (of which there aren't any) but rather to explore and widen one's baking horizons. To coax the servants at the altar of the humble bread to leave their cave and Dutch Oven behind.
With just about every bake of yours we're seeing improvements, and if it weren't for the CB, you might be wondering what it must be like to bake a baguette. Or maybe wondering what time dinner is served ;-) .
As mentioned way way up in this thread, it is generally a two step forward, one step backward process for those like Dan and you that have the gumption too improve.
alan
Not baguette crumb, but for sandwich breads it would be very nice. I own Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes. As you know the book is about the convenience of mixing a large dough and having it available to bake breads during the week.
The even crumb is indicative of over-fermentation. Love the taste of over fermented bread, especially sourdough!
” so the crumb is soft and squishy”. I like soft and squishy, maybe I ought to over ferment some dough and give that a try. We learned during this CB that CY makes a softer bread.
Jen, your interest in experimentation is a welcomed asset to the forum.
Stated the answer to Doc Doughs crumb riddle in his last post above. The shorter bulk produced the open crumb when logic dictates otherwise. The more we learn the more we realize how much we don't know.
My more open crumb came with the longer (2 hr vs 1 hr) bulk fermentation. At some point I will do a three way split of a single mix and BF for 1, 2, 3 hrs (or 1.0, 1.8, and 2.6 hrs) and characterize the results. There is clearly some cell consolidation that takes place during bulk fermentation. Need to get a sample on the far side of optimum to know there is a local min/max in between. Does shaping want to happen before or after consolidation has begun? Of course the part about "all other things being equal" is the tricky bit to control.
There is a reason the nobles demanded white flour and the use of it is so common now. Flavor. I was a reluctantly coaxed into whole grain baking because it meant leaving behind that pure flavor.
My pizza dough is basically that method with 70% water. On the second day in the fridge I divide it and ball it up so pizza can happen any day of the week. I use ADY for that job because I learned it has a slower but longer lifespan. I wonder if a pre shape letter fold and then a thinner shape with a longer proof would open up the crumb more?
Cest la vie say the old folks. It goes to show you never can tell. Maybe I should have put these in the lead off spot in the baton order. I finally got around to the recipe for this CB last because I am a yeasted baguette devotee. The crust and the less lively dough which is not as fun to work with just never yielded a very good stick for me. Well my dogma just got run over by my karma so to speak.
I used the basic recipe 675 total dough with a 5% of the whole wheat swapped out for a more white flour so 20% instead. The leavain was an overnight that was all whole grain at 100% hydration. I planned to up the hydration to the limit but that ended up around 75% anyway and to bake it straight through with my usual short mix and a couple of coil folds. Life intruded after 3 hours of the bulk so I tucked it in the fridge. Got home after 4 hours and pulled the dough out and let it sit for an our before dividing and letter folding this time seam down. I shaped a rather loose and lifeless dough about 40 minutes later and turned the oven to 500 with my new Fibrament stone in place. The dough had shown some growth after a 45 minute proof and the scores went ok but I was not optimistic about the outcome. They went flat in the oven but started to show some spring and the cuts opened so maybe all was ok. They came out looking better than hoped not a lot of growth and I was expecting a dense crumb.
The crust wasn't light but it was crisper than expected but the crumb!
The crumb was unlike anything I have ever produced with sourdough baguettes.If the results are because of my new stone that has been named "Third rock from the sun" after the Jimi Hendrix song. I am sorry I didn't get it sooner. I think I just got lucky but my faith in the SD baggie has been restored.
The Other One
What are the holes for? Show? No PB&J
Natural light bleaches out the whole grain. The crust had a beef jerky like quality to it today but another day under wraps should meld it in in with the crumb.
All the good things to say. Someday you'll have to teach me how to get an open crumb like that!. I can get some baguettes under 70% hydration to display open crumb, but this, and Doc Dough's recent foray, are in a separate universe, with Dan on your tails.
Bravo, and welcome to the joys of levain baking.
alan
As long as you were referencing J.H., here is a quite unique cover from that same first album by one of my heroes.
As a preeminent goal but it leads to disappointment more often than not. I suppose it is that delicate dance between gluten development and fermentation that doc mentioned. I used a weak off brand bread flour for this bake and it never showed any clue that the crumb would end up like this. I did do about 10 S&F but minimal effort because the flour was sticky and wanted to tear rather than smooth out. I have to say that the flavor and texture was the least favorite of all the others because it was all crust and no crumb and just a little off. I am thinking the massive new stone puffed these up like pancake batter. The shaping was with minimal rolling and clumsy because it kept sticking so I just tried cinching in some tension like the gal in the video I linked to earlier. At least my new stone has some good mojo on the baptismal bake. That’s life. Back to work
But I could be mistaken. The retard takes some time to chill bulk dough (as opposed to shaped loaves which have a shorter maximum dough thickness) and 4 hrs at even an unspecified refrigerator temperature should be enough to stabilize it. And during the cool down there continues to be yeast and LAB activity in the dough so the BF is effectively a couple hours longer than the stated three. The result at that point is a dough that you thought too stiff to shape? So you waited an hour for it to warm up somewhat but that is not enough time for it to fully come back to room temperature - so I am going to guess that the center of your dough was still below 60°F when you shaped, so less viscous but not really soft. Letter folds provide a gentle shaping that doesn't collapse the cell structure so you continue to preserve what the long BF developed and subsequent chilling did not destroy. Very much following Trevor Wilson's guidance to not do anything to damage good open crumb potential.
I suspect that the new stone had little to do with your results, but we humans are built to detect correlation and assume causality. We also rarely go back to verify an assumption that was apparently supported by a single experiment even if there were many changing variables. So this is a case where I for one would like to see you repeat the process but use your old stone as the only thing that changes.
It would also be a great idea if a few others here would take a run at it in their kitchen with their flour, mixing technique, refrigerator, stone, steam generator, and oven. But to do that we really need a more complete ingredients list and process description - which only you can provide :-)
As a lack of luck would have it, I have two batches of dough that unexpectedly had to be retarded pre-shaping, exactly like this. I'll be interested to see if I get a similar effect.
Life through me lemons yesterday but I was trying to compare same dough, different mixing lengths. Oh well. That'll wait for another day.
It is interesting how happy accidents happen sometimes.
They were small diameter and almost popped up like bread sticks( Gressinsi ) is the reason I said the stone baked them. The recipe I used was Alanso's last one White flour was 80% Big J Golden loaf bread flour 15% winter wheat berries and 5% rye berries milled and used for overnight levin( I am never again fighting autocorrect with that word) 100% hydration that was 16% total prefermented flour. It was used in the fermentolyze 10 hours later. 20 minutes added the salt and 10 more gr of water. short mix rest 10 then some mixing and 10 slap and folds dough. It was very loose and sticky. Big J doesn't take water like other bread flour and seems more like AP. I did two coil folds in the first hour and it rose maybe 25% total in the bulk. The dough never had any strength and I had to handle it with velvet gloves in zero gravity. It didn't want to roll so I cinched it in place by using a few 2 handed palms up karate chops under the dough. Not something I normally do. They were not difficult to score and I baked them at 480 for 22 minutes and put them on the top rack with the oven off and the door cracked to get more brown on top because they didn't want to darken.
I am a believer in science but I am still an illiterate in the science of sourdough. I get by solely on repetition and intuition. I believe you are correct in your ventured guess as far as the bulk fermentation. They were on the verge of over proofing and were rescued by intense heat is how I see it. I nearly fainted when I cut them open
You and Benny are turning out show piece crumb shots. I hope we don’t loose you two to Instagram :D
I have a set of shaped baguettes retarding now. BF the dough a little longer in hopes of better crumb. We’ll see...
I see like you that the long and thin look is not only appealing but they bake up better with more relative expansion. I may go for the end loaded smaller ficilles (flutes) to get a more practical bread and that requires less special packaging. Maybe even 5 wide on the new stone. Thanks for the recommendation on the stone. The standard size 15"x20" fit perfectly
Awesome baguettes Don, the crumb and crust are amazing. The crumb is so open and you have your usual amazing ears.
After falling down a rabbit hole for 2 consecutive bakes, I had to find some comfortable footing. Following instructions on two different YouTubes about French Baguettes, and both were severely over proofed. For example yesterday's bake had me build a 115% hydration poolish. The instructions for it should have been the tipoff. My choice of either the countertop for 10 hours or the refrigerator for "overnight". There was no correlation to these two choices.
Anyway, the salvation was good oven spring and crisp crust on both, and the first, levain version had a lovely sweet taste. But it is hard to get these to brown enough.
Last night I went back to the Weekend Bakery Pain Rustique formula. With no intention of making it "rustique", as I also didn't do three years ago. it is a strange formula in that the poolish, containing 50% of the total flour, was part WW and also uses a small dollop of levain rather than IDY to get it going. Low hydration of 65%, it doesn't open up a lot but is another nice crisp crusted bread.
Another shot of how the dough was scored/
Here are two of the three from the over proofed last bake.
The color as always is outstanding.
Your scoring seems to lap more than most instructions. Some say an inch over lap, other 1/3. Your scores are proof, they always look exception.
Happy Canada Day! To celebrate I started a double batch of baguettes yesterday and just pulled them out of the oven. I decided that I wanted to try an almost all white flour recipe since white flour baguettes are what remind me of Paris most. I used Abel’s recipe that Alfanso kindly posted here.
I added a small amount about rye to the levain build but otherwise followed the recipe. Edit - I actually also dropped the hydration to about 70%. The rye was 2.5% of the flour. Because I cannot cold retard six baguettes in my fridge I decided it would be interesting to see the difference when cold retarding shaped baguettes vs. unshaped until after cold retard. However, because I cannot bake six baguettes at once, the shaped baguettes went into the oven after 13 hours of cold retard. The second three were shaped after 13.5 hours of cold retard and then placed back in the fridge until the oven, baking steel, cast iron skillet and Silvia towel were back up to 500ºF. Oh because I forgot to drop the temperature from 500ºF to 480ºF at the start of baking the second set, they baked at 500ºF until halfway after removing the steaming gear.
Because I didn’t weigh the dough when I divided, the first of baguettes were larger and didn’t fit well on my cookie tray or baking steel. The second set fit much better. I think for my set up 280-290 g per baguette is optimal.
Oven spring seems pretty good especially on the second set. There are a bit of ears on some. The crumb will tell the story I guess.
Now the second set, I forgot to take a photo after scoring these, but I think scoring was a bit better as I did each score faster, I need much more practice. I also forgot to brush off the excess flour prior to scoring.
Benny
Here’s the crumb on one of the first set with the shaped cold retard. I’m liking the flavour more without as much whole wheat and the crust is fairly thin and crisp. My favourite hybrid sourdough IDY baguette for flavour and texture so far.
Benny - we are accumulating evidence through many distributed formula variations during this CB that seem to be pointing to some sort of consensus. You last run seems confirmatory. Well done!
Thank you Doc. I think the crumb on the set that was shaped after cold retard is better than those shaped before cold retard. Of course the shaped after cold retard set had more time in cold retard which for my fridge I had down to 2ºC.
Here’s the crumb from the set done prior to cold retard.
Here is the crumb from the set shaped after cold retard.
I like the crumb on the retard in bulk ones better. You can just use the same basic Bouabsa method with sourdough added.
The shaping only improves with practice. Long and thin is currently in! Nice job on the fermentation and hybrid use.
Thank you Don. I guess if I compare the two sets, because of the greater dough mass the cold retard in bulk set took longer to cool in the fridge and continued to ferment. This was definitely the case because they were more challenging to shape. I still have challenges while shaping trying to get just the right amount of flour on the dough in order to prevent sticking but not so much that there isn’t any friction to allow elongation. I suspect many more bakes are needed to get this right. My 4th set of baguettes were thinner, I’m going to have to try to get that shape next time.
Even 1/4 tsp of yeast needs to be put into the barn before it gets to a full gallup. As Abel in his succinct way stated keep the dough in the low 70's so it doesn't get too strong. Someday you should try the Gosselin baguette that is mixed with ice water. It has an amazing flavor but shaped in a ciabatta kind of way.
Don
I agree that the smaller surface area to volume ratio for the "retard before shape" batch delays cool down and allows some additional fermentation. But once the dough reaches 4°C, there is VERY LITTLE additional fermentation. A 2°C setting gets it there marginally sooner but serves as some protection from opening the refrigerator door for other things.
Your comment about getting the right amount of flour on the dough is a good observation, and I have never seen a good tutorial on what it should be or how to do it. There is a HUGE difference between working on unfinished hard maple, stainless steel, granite, Corian, cloth, or an inverted Silpat/silicone baking mat (which is what I use). And it is super important that you get it right because you can't shape well if you don't have the right friction between the dough and the surface it is being shaped on. Watching somebody shape on a surface that does not match what you are using is almost useless from a training/learning perspective. Now throw in all the different variables that affect the dough handling experience (flour/flour mix, dough hydration, bulk fermentation time and temperature, dough temperature, and of course whether you flour or wet your hands) and the combinations are too many to teach individually. So this is an area where we are left to discover for ourselves what works, and since you don't know yet what it feels like when you get it right, you have no sense of what you are doing wrong or how to correct it. No wonder so many folks give up.
You can see how different each baguette is from each other. On a couple I think I had the right amount of flour and was able to elongate well. On a couple I did experience the sticking and then on a couple more a bit too much flour and the dough not having friction and just moving without rolling under my hands. I have quartz countertops and I’m not sure if they are stickier or less sticky, but it seems that most professionals use wood.
Never consciously gave a lot of consideration to the counter surface and it’s affect on shaping, especially baguettes. When friction is lost, the flour is removed and a very light spritz (tiniest amount) of water is applied. Mine is Corian, but I like the idea of trying a Silpat mat. It is pretty “sticky”.
Of course a very light spritz of water, didn’t even consider that, good idea Dan. I have a Silpat mat and also a largish maple board. Would you consider both to be sticky or just the Silpat? Is the maple board less sticky than a quartz countertop?
Never shaped on any kind of wood, Benny.
Any polished surface (stone, plastic, or metal) will be "stickier" than wood that has a thin coating of flour. The issue with the polished surface is that it is nearly impossible to lay down a uniformly thin layer of flour. And flour will stick to bare wood just fine. So try it both ways and see what you are successful with. There is no "right way", just what works for you.
I may have to try the wooden board, it is a decent length, but I wish it was a bit wider.
Put a couple of drops of water on your squeeky clean Corian countertop and put the baking mat smooth side down over the wet spot and pat it down. The silicone is now effectively stuck to the counter and this works equally well for any smooth surface (Corian, granite, marble, or quartz). Then put a little flour on the back (what is now the upward-facing surface) and spread it around so that the irregularities defined by the encapsulated fiberglass mat hold it. Now you can turn out your dough and use a bench knife to divide it into the desired size. Pick up a dough piece and toss it onto a floured couche to get some flour on the cut face or put it on the scale with the already-floured side down. I usually put a line of bench flour along the back edge of the mat so that I have some immediately available when I need it.
Doc, I’ve got a few Silpats, but none of them have a smooth side. Please send a link to the mat.
Silicone baking mat
This one is from Bed Bath & Beyond.
The smooth side of a Silpat is the side with the printing on it.
The back is a slightly different texture.
I have Silpat baking mats, I may have to try a few things or just continue to use my countertop and figure out the best way to get just the right amount of tackiness without too much or too little flour.
Benny - very very well done. Those look amazing!
Thank you Frank, nice to achieve a good crumb.
You knocked that baby out of the park... Everything looks gorgeous to me.
That crumb would have the Instagrammies drooling.
Everything here looks wonderful, especially the crumb. The final part of the puzzle is to figure out how to get your scores to grigne and rise up above the surface of the baguette. You are a stellar student!
Thank you Alan, I am learning with the group here and have everyone who has contributed their time to thank.
Yes the ears, this is just like last year when I was trying to get ears on my batards. It came down to structure, tension, fermentation and scoring, did I leave anything out? I guess it will be the same here. I’m leaving out the baking because I think I have the steam working given the oven spring these were able to achieve.
Benny - for some reason I had not noticed (or you had not mentioned) that you use a baking steel (I presume in place of tiles or a stone). And this is the first mention I have seen for baguettes though I use my "baking aluminum" for pizza because it heats up fast and delivers lots of heat to the crust quickly. How thick is your steel? Carbon steel (I presume - but I have to inquire in case you have a source of stainless plate)? And does it alter anything else in the process?
Doc the baking steel is made by Vermont Castings and its specs say that it is mild carbon steel. I originally purchased it to bake pies on to ensure the bottom pastry got hot fast and browned. I am now using it to bake these baguettes.
Another variable with the second set and the longer cold retard is that I baked at 500ºF by accident for about ¾ of the bake time. The bottoms of these baguettes were definitely a bit over baked.
Benny - with a 3mm piece of sheet steel, heat moves through it pretty fast and will scorch the bread if you don't reduce the heat flux from the bottom by putting a couple of layers of crumpled up and re-flattened heavy duty aluminum foil between the steel and the rack it sits on. The steel will pre-heat and then provide instant heat delivery to the loaf on loading, but once that stored heat has been sucked out by the dough, there is still a route from the sides via lateral conduction through the plate and from the bottom through the foil but the heat delivery rate is not as fast as it would be if the bottom was not protected. Tile or stone with the right thermal diffusivity provides just the right heat delivery rate without burning while delaying thermal input from the back side. You would like the combination of crumpled foil and steel to provide the same effective thermal resistance as 3/8" clay tile.
This is starting to sound like what I am now doing with my dutch oven when I bake sourdough batards. I had sometimes had problems with over browning the bottom crust. What I have figured out is that if I can shield the dutch oven from direct heat, I no longer have problems with burning. I now place the dutch oven on top of the broiling rack that comes with the oven, made of granite ware. I wonder if placing the baking steel on the granite ware broiling rack would help shield it from direct heat and prevent burning as well. Since I already have the broiling rack it is worth trying. Thanks for the ideas Doc.
Benny
Sorry Doc, I missed your question about the thickness of the baking steel, it is only 3 mm thick. In regards to whether it alters anything else in the process, that I do not know because I don’t have anything else to compare it to.
I wanted to post this to the baguette CB because it may be a valuable asset for shaping baguettes.
Instead of hijacking the CB, the short video and message was posted to a new topic. If there is any discussion, it is probably best to use the other post. This CB is a behemoth... Alan takes the honors for the highest number of post to any CB as of this date. At this time we're at 446 replies.
Alfanso, has been promoted to The Fresh Loaf hall of fame. His star shall be prominently placed somewhere in the universe.
Back to the alternate post. See it here.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64855/extensible-dough-nutritional-yeast-and-fava-beans
Danny
My TFL Mt Rushmore would have ALfanso, DmSnyder, Dabrownman, and of course Minioven. That doesn't leave room for TXfarmer, Bwraithe, PatRoth and many others including you. This is your baby so take some of the bows along with the allure of the baguette.
Dan when he was a child. The DNA was already there!
We're going need a bigger mountain reminded me of two movie quotes - apropos for the two of you.
P.S. Conceptually I enjoy the reference, how could I not, but leave me off the mountain. I'm afraid of heights, my head is not my best side, and mostly because I'm just a doofus who figured it out.
Put you heads above the rest. The place just wouldn't have the vibe without you. The next line from Apocalypse Now quote was one of my favorite as it relates to guiding and life in general " Unless you plan on going all the way"
Lt. Colonel Hamelman Kilgore
Same dude
I was a cute kid. Even back the I was a fan of long baguettes. :D
"We're going to need considerably bigger buns"
Got a chuckle out of that one, Tom.
It was a great movie. Going to try to watch it again soon...
I found the time to bake again and I am pretty happy with the results!
Same formula but tweaked slightly:
Increased hydration to ~70%
Increased total content of Pivetti (11% protein) flour to nearly 100%.
Added Malt
Increased bulk
French (slap and) folded to full development.
Better oven spring, better volume, better taste, better colour, better texture.
----
Each baguette weighs 220 grams, they were scaled at 290g.
They've got all the good stuff I admire and want in a baguette. Love the crunching noises too. That's my kind of coloration as well.
Well done, and they are well done.
alan
Thanks Alan, that's great to hear. I really wanted to up my game with this bake and the deeper colouration really elevates the flavour too.
I tip my hat to you sir.
Michael
Hehehee. The sound of crunching noise in the video tells it all... Well Done!
Alfanso, had best keep his skills honed. There are a number of bakers barking up his tree. <LOL>
Love the color, the rugged crust near the scores, and the shape. These are exceptional.
It seems apparent that many of the bakers that joined this Community Bake have benefited by leaps and bounds. I know I have.
Thanks Danny.
The community bake is proving very fruitful to all involved. Can't thank you enough!
Wow, beautiful baguettes. Your scores open up so nicely and distinctively, I don’t think I’ve seen any others posted here that look like that. Again a signature look.
The Beaujolais Villages must have been good with that.
Benny
Thanks Benny, certainly I was very pleased with how the baggies bloomed.
The Beaujolais is my go-to wine and indeed it was perfect for an afternoon aperitivo with the baguettes, cheeses and cold cuts.
Cheers,
Michael
Knowledge, skill, flour, formulation, and process all come together nicely. The result is a piece of edible art. And the audio track in the video says a lot.
What was the oven cycle to get such a uniform coloration?
Or is that related to the malt? Which raises the question of how much malt was in that batch?
Doc. I am quite taken aback, thank you for your glowing review.
I trained and worked as chef before venturing into baking, so like a chef I tend to bake instinctively. I have a domestic fan oven and it does a good job at giving even colouration without any help from me. The flour I'm using isn't already malted and so the addition was very worthwhile as the previous bake struggled to colour.
I added 1% diastatic malted barley flour in accordance with Giorilli's methods.