Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso

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This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.

We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form

Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.

For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
 
   

    

Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.

Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.

Alan writes:

I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread.  It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.

I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.

Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.

This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."

NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary.  Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.

   Additional Resources

 

Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.  

Danny 

A late addition -

In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.

If I remember correctly, my dough (during BF) rose in typical fashion to other doughs for other breads. It was doomed, a little airy, strong. But didn’t have a super high rise, maybe 30-50%. But that is from memory, 3 batches of baguettes ago.

I am under the impression that baguette dough should not be allowed to rise excessively. If it did, how would we shape it?

Most major flour mills in the US, and I'd guess in Canada too, already add malted barley flour.  a few grams per K may grant a darker crust.  I don't know the ratio but it is minuscule.  Any more than that would render the crumb gummy.

dmsnyder paraphrased: Shape the dough using an iron fist inside of a velvet glove.

Some of what I wrote back to Will above: kendalm is a great believer in the "heat blast" method for his baguettes, and baking the devils at 500dF or higher.  I find 500 in my oven on my deck to be scorchingly too hot.  But that initial heat during steam time is essential to getting good oven spring.  

Check list:

  • What temp did you bake at?  Did you give the baking deck sufficient time to reach temp too?  
  • What are you using for steam creation and did you leave the oven sealed shut for the entire steam session?
  • How long did you retard the dough?  
  • Do you think that you had good gluten development during  BF and that your Stretch and folds, however done, were sufficient to enhance the redistribution of internal gasses and the gluten structure?  Was your final S&F done with a gentle hand or was it manhandling?
  • Do you feel as though you applied "appropriate pressure" on the dough during final shaping?  
  • Did you deflate the dough during pre-shape with a too aggressive pre-shape?  Pre-shaping the dough should be done with just as, if not more so, a gentle hand than final shaping.

 

Alan, of all the points listed in your checklist, gentle pre-shaping grabs my attention the most. In an effort to develop a tight gluten skin, I may be stretching the pre-shape too much. I’ll have to try a few pre-shapes tight and a few loose next time for comparison.

Thanks

Alan, I heated the oven at 480ºF for 50 mins and baked at 460ºF.

I used a cast iron skillet heated with the oven and poured 1 cup boiling water into it after the dough was loaded (it had a small amount of water left when the 13 mins steaming was over.  I also had a loaf pan with a towel and water in it heating the whole time the oven was one including the pre-heat.  It has plenty of water in it at the end of steam and I did not open the oven during steam.

The dough was retarded over night for about 14 hours.

Very good gluten development but the dough was under proofed probably as identified as the levain being under fermented.  This was probably the main problem.

My pre-shaping was a bit too tight, I went into shaping mode and realized it too late.

I think I did an ok job with the shaping with good pressure.

I am going to do an overnight levain and hopefully have better luck, I don’t think I have enough time today to start again now.

It seems high heat = more chewy crust and crumb. I would like my baguettes to have a lighter bite and chew.

Is it possible to get a more tender baguette and at the same time produce huge oven spring and nice ears. Can we have it both ways?

Update - if bread s wrapped tightly in plastic wrap it will soften considerably in a few hours and especially overnight.

I am still very interested to learn to bake the baguette with a softer chew and bite, if possible in a home oven.

A thin crust and a soft chew are what I like in an baguette and that is what IDY brings to the table. The sourdough is still there for flavor but to get oven spring that is strong and reliable plus ears and a strong bloom the CY in small quantities is a big help. It might be an affront to the SD purist which I once was but I prefer my batons yeasted. As Martin Phillip stated recently that yeast is just another tool in the box.

 

I didn’t have any whole wheat flour so I subbed in hard red wheat. They turned out quite nice, the crumb is not as open as I hoped for but the flavour is great

**Working on the photo size...sorry!

 

First off, many thanks to Dan and Alan! There is much rejoicing from my baguette loving crew over this community bake. They may change their minds in a few weeks.

For this first attempt, I followed Alan's formula exactly in measurements and timing. I retarded directly after shaping and baked directly from the fridge. My main change was using a cloche instead of steam.

I baked them in three batches with the difference being a proof time at room temperature before baking on two of the batches.

THE CONTENDERS

#1 Baked directly from fridge, cloche 10 minutes

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#2- 30 minute proof at room temp, 10 minutes under cloche

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#3- 60-minute realtemp proof after fridge, 10 minute under cloche

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Side-by-Side Comparison

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The Good The Bad and The Ugly

This is my third time ever making baguettes. I plan on using Alan's shaping technique because it is much better for me than the others I've tried. I think I deflated the dough too much in the past with the other methods. 

From the pictures batch 1 looks the best on the but that's only from the scoring. They were actually much less rounded and didn't have good height and form. 2 was better and 3 was the best. I'm not sure you can tell from the pictures but while one had decent sized holes the surrounding dough wasn't as well distributed with holes.

I think the problem with #1 is that my kitchen is 70 degrees. Alan's kitchen is 78 to 80. I can't speak to his fridge but the fridge that mine go into is the spare used only for long term storage and is seldom opened. Its as close to freezing as you can get without freezing. I think while his baguettes can go directly into the fridge and still get some proofing mine simply cool down too much to have any appreciable proofing in retard. Hence underproofed without extra time after removing from retard. I think my next batch I need to experiment with a room temp proof of 15, 30, 45 and 60 minutes before retard and then score and bake directly from there.

I prefer scoring a cold dough. I could alternately experiment with doing a room temp proof only after retard and then putting it in the freezer for 15 minutes before scoring. I've had very good success with that in the past with other wild yeast doughs.

My oven is both a wonderful thing and a lot to learn. I haven't had it that long but it is both a double oven and a smart oven. It is a standard height with a smaller upper portion and larger bottom one. The upper compartment does not have enough room for steam at all. The bottom compartment potentially does but that it also loses headroom after adding a second rack. It is both flexible and not and I don't have a firm grip on everything yet. I need to perfect both steaming and using a cloche.

Scheming on future bakes...

* Next round- try room temp proof at 15, 30, 45 and 60 minutes before retard. Bake directly from fridge. Hopefully this gives me more open scores and a much better appearance.

*Look at trying retard directly after shaping and then room temp proof for 30 and 60 minutes and then 15 minutes in the freezer before scoring. Side by side loaves with and without freeze prior to scoring.

*Side by side loaves of exact method with and without diastatic malt. I forgot to add it this time.

*Scoring practice. Scoring practice. Scoring practice. Scoring practice. Shaping practice. Shaping practice. Shaping practice.

*Play around with steam versus no steam. Possibility of adding a small ramekin of boiling water under cloche to add steam? Concerned that the steam from the bread itself isn't sufficient to get a good rise in that space- particularly when baking 1 loaf at a time.

 

That's round one, anyways. My brain is about 10 bakes ahead right now.

Questions, thoughts, suggestions? What can I do to improve? What am I missing that I should consider?

Muchas gracias all- this should be fun!

Jen, considering this is only your third baguette bake, I’d call this a smashing success! Seriously, this is pretty darn good. IMO, your shaping and scoring are off to a great start.

The crumb looks very nice and you can look forward to even better improvement once you get more oven spring. With explosive oven spring, comes ears.

I wonder if the crust didn’t set to quickly. If that is the case the hardened crust would hinder the bread from opening more. I say that because the crumb looks very nice, but the scores didn’t open much. Others experienced bakers may have helpful input.

What type of clouche are you using? Can you send a link?

How long are your baguettes?

Your top oven (the smaller one) may be the best for bread. Even though steam trays may present a problem, some bakers believe that a small baking compartment is better than a large one. It takes less steam to fill the oven cavity and the dough itself will loose water (steam) in the baking process. You might try pre-steaming the small oven, removing the steam apparatus, loading the dough and then spritzing. Just a thought, but it’s worth a try.

Danny

Danny,

Thank you so much!

I baked off one loaf in the upper oven with lava rocks. It was very uneven and I wasn't so impressed. Alan says he has a double oven mine and bakes in the bottom one.

My "cloche" is just a heavy lid to an oval baker but I can't much length with it. I'm putting it aside for now. I like enclosed spaces for my boules and ovals, just so easy compared to steam but it doesn't work out as well.

Baked 2 more rounds today and learned a lot. I'll post all that in a bit.

Thanks again!

Jen

for a third baguette bake..  Welcome to our little corner of the TFL Universe.

We traded in our single box oven for a double, as you have, a few years ago.  Similar configuration with small box on top, big box below.  I always use the lower oven.  My pan with lava rocks sits directly above the lower heating element, the baking deck two above that.  Which still gives me the majority of the oven box above what I bake.  No scorched tops or bottoms.

Yep, cooler kitchens will require more BF and countertop proofing times.  I almost always bake directly from retard.

It's a close call, but I like what's behind curtain #3.  I gravitate toward a dark bake, and your open crumb is just dandy.

And you have the ticket - few and far between us got it right away as baguettes are a different beast and do take practice and then more practice.

alan

Alan- 

Thank you so much! I had better oven spring in the past but I'm learning a lot. And the quality of the crumb is most definitely better now. And your shaping technique has helped A LOT.

I don't know how I lived without a double oven before. I really really want to play with the proofing setting...except I need new light bulbs. Apparently steam and light bulbs aren't a good match!

Happy Baking,

Jen

that keeps seemingly most the pros shaping baguettes almost exactly the same way.  Fold over 1/3, turn around, fold over 1/3, fold down the length with thumb inside the dough and seal with heel of hand and then do it again. It seems to me a lot of wasted work.  

And when I think of a busy corner bakery where the lone one or two bakers have to put out maybe 100-200 or more baguettes each morning, how do they ever have the time to do so if they follow that laborious technique?  I'm not saying that my way is better or maybe even as good, but it works for me.  And now apparently you too.

I watch a lot of videos where the home baker is treating the pre-shape and shape steps of the dough as a near-religious experience.  Or as I mentioned to Dan the other day concerning one to-be-unnamed baker's video, like a father of a newborn trying to learn to fit a diaper on his first baby.   Not me. I like the attention to detail and always looking to tweak or change to something that might work better.  I can't see myself spending minutes babying a loaf or three.  Just get in there and get the job done.  Also not asking anyone to agree with me and my way of doing it, I'm merely exposing my methods, answering questions asked of me and letting folks decide what is their own cup of tea. 

We replaced our single box oven for a double less than 6 years ago and for the entire time we had it the GE tech repairman and I became first name buddies since he was spending a lot of time and recurring trips trying to repair the oven.  It was defective in its wiring or integrity somewhere along the line and the light bulbs in both the upper (where I don't bake) and lower oven kept burning out within weeks, if that long.  GE refused to acknowledge that it was a dud and swap out the oven for another one even if they likely paid the repairman more in time spent for on-site visits than the oven had initially cost them to build.  "We don't exchange, we only repair" was the help-line GE mantra.  

Until I got the Better Business Bureau involved, delivering my poison pen letter to the President's office.  Suddenly they cared.  At one point some white collar-type from the top of the food chain there was trying to diagnose the problem over the phone with me - this is a person who has no tech or field experience.  Anything other than to admit that the oven was a lemon.  Which they eventually did, and exchanged out the oven for another one.  And now?  No problems for the past 4 years.   

I just checked my records.  Installed late 10/14, the first bulb blew in less than one month.  Over the course of the 13 months before oven was replaced, the service person made at least 7 on site repair visits. New oven installed early 12/15.

I've mentioned this a few times over the past few years, as recently as at the top of this CB posting, about taking the basic formula and changing a thing or two to make it your own.

I needed to refresh my 75% hydration mixed flour levain the other day, and decided to convert the formula to accommodate that.  During autolyse I decided to add 100g of golden raisins (14%)  at the first of the two letter folds.  At shaping I rolled two of the four in bran flakes.

I made it "my own".  Again. 

Edit: I just noticed an error in the spreadsheet where I didn't calculate the levain correctly.  The WW component was left out causing the levain to calculate too light.  The correct amount of levain to be added is 199.7g.  

Say!  Wait one minute.  How could the adding of the "lost 23.4g of WW in the levain calc. suddenly become a 45g difference in the levain added at mix time?

The 20% starter is based on the total flour in the levain column.  Since total flour now goes up so does the starter - that's > 4g more starter.  The water, also based on the total flour, goes up 17g.

23.4g missing WW + 4g starter + 17.6g water = ~45g more levain!

The corrected spreadsheet is

    Total Flour    
Total Dough Weight (g) 1250 Prefermented15.50%   
Total Formula   Levain   Final Dough 
Ingredients%Grams %Grams IngredientsGrams
Total Flour100.00%736.2 100.00%114.1 Final Flour622.1
Bread Flour75.00%552.1 59.0%67.3 Bread Flour484.8
Whole Wheat20.00%147.2 20.5%23.4 Whole Wheat123.8
Rye5.00%36.8 20.5%23.4 Rye13.4
Water68.00%500.6 75%85.6 Water415.0
Salt1.80%13.3    Salt13.3
Starter3.10%22.8 20%22.8   
       Levain199.7
Totals169.80%1250.0 195%222.5  1250.0

I was a little disappointed in oven spring, and this may have been the culprit.

As mentioned somewhere upstream on this post and before, early errors are magnified downstream.

305g x 4 baguettes/long batards

Very nice, consistent Alan.

I have my levain building I haven’t given up on this yet.  Not sure why, but whenever I build a levain using only white flour it is super super slow.  I know whole grains ferment faster, but the difference is crazy.  The levain started last night before bed at a cool temperature.  At 5 am it had risen only about 20%, fine, so I placed it into the proofer at 80ºF.  It is now greater than double and still rising.  To me that is crazy slow.  If I build any other levain at 1:2:2 with 50% whole grain flour it will double in 4-5 hours.

I’m thinking of inoculating the dough with 0.05-0.1% IDY just to make sure this actually ferments adequately unlike my first embarrassing attempt.

As MTloaf stated earlier.

For the purists who would never consider an IDY bake or gasp! mixing IDY and a levain, I say "okay".  

For the rest of the baking world, it is a valuable tool.  If not added directly as a component during the final dough ingredients phase, it is also used to build polish and biga preferments which then get added to multi-preferment mixes.

What you may have noticed is that with each consecutive build, they tend to be shorter in duration when done one after the other and the levain gets more potent.  And that may be why a three stage build is a valuable tool for some professional bakers.  White levains are no different, they just don't have the same explosive growth that whole grain levains display on consecutive builds.  And differing hydration levains also behave distinctly different from one another even within the same grain profile.

Just got done with the first bake of these, and levain for the next is growing. I will add somep pictures later in the day.

Bake 1

Not the best. Got over-excited and forgot to add salt, then didn't remember until half way through bulk. I laminated in a little salt and water on the second fold, but it was evident in the final loaves that it didn't ever get properly incorporated.

Hot weather plus lac of salt in the dough meant that the dough got a little over-proofed and was quite difficult to shape. Wrestled them into some semblance of baguette-shape, retarded overnight, then baked.

While the final loaves aren't very pretty, they are tasty.

Remark: many sources that I've read talk about how salt tightens gluten, but I've never been able to observe this directly. Since the salt didn't get properly incorporated from folding, there were pockets of very high salt concentration scattered through the dough. Around these pockets, the tightening effects of the salt were very clear. I'm not sure if this is due to salt's chemical interaction with gluten, or just the salt pulling water away from the dough in these pockets.

 Bake 2

Remembered the salt this time.  The edge of one of the upper loaf below dried out a bit in the fridge. Need to make doubly sure to keep them well-sealed on the next batch.

I also went down to a half recipe because the three loaves on the last batch were a little too close in the oven for my liking. Unfortunately, this means less steam under the cover I use. Based on how they looked when I raised the cover, an ice cube or two under the cover would have helped the scores open better. Despite what it looks like on the bottom loaf, when the scores were cut on that loaf, they did overlap.

A question on proofing and shaping:

A problem that I sometimes have when shaping baguettes (and had when shaping both of these) is that the dough sticks to the counter when doing the final rolling step. This stretches out the surface of the loaf, decreasing the surface tension, and simply make the dough difficult to handle without adding a fair bit of flour.

Is this stickiness mainly due to overproofing? It seems to me that older levain also exacerbates the stickiness. Does anyone else have similar experience?

Thanks to everyone everyone for making this an excellent learning experience!

Bake 3

Too lazy to photograph this one. More or less came out the same as the last batch. I added some ice under the cover for extra steam, which improved the crust (shinier, crisper) and allowed the scores to open a little more. The dough problems discussed here made creating tension in the final loaves difficult.

Bake 4

Used only 178g of water and stopped French folds when the dough seemed like it was starting to get sticky (~70 FFs first set, ~120 on the second). The final dough was less sticky and easier to score and handle than in the previous bakes.

The crumb was a bit tighter on this one than the past bakes, and like the past bakes, the loaves lack real ears and have a flatter profile (see the image) than I would ideally want. The loaves already have a flat profile when they come out of retard; I notice that in the Martin Philip video, the loaves have a much rounder profile when they come off the couche. I can't tell which of overproofing, poor shaping, or an insufficiently supportive couche (cotton towel for me) is the main problem here.

Notes on FFs

I rewatched Alfanso's videos on FFs for the Bouabsa baguettes and found it interesting to contrast my dough with the video.

Start: The Bouabsas as wetter than my dough, but even so, my dough is much smoother, tighter, and less wet-looking before FFs

First set of FFs: The Bouabsas start very wet and slack. Within a few turns, they become ropy and towards the end of the first set of folds they begin to smooth out. My dough starts dry enough that I need to apply at least a little force to get it to fold; I can't just toss it as in the video. While my dough does not feel very developed at this point, it does feel like dough rather than slop. After 30 or so FFs, during which the surface of my dough tears repeatedly, it begins to loosen up a  bit and folds more easily, but also starts to feel a bit sticky.

Rest: Both doughs smooth out a fair bit here

Second set of FFs: The Bouabsas look very smooth and look smoother and more extensible as time goes on. My dough starts smooth-ish (less than the Bouabsas), then begins to become more extensible, but also looser and stickier as a whole. My dough also looks much less shiny that the Bouabsas, although it's hard to tell how much is differences in lighting and whole grain content.

A naive question about FFs

Why do we use FFs for baguettes? From poking around the internet and some older cookbooks, it seems like this is the traditional method for developing them. Is there a reason that this is preferred to, for example,  the S&Fs employed for txfarmer's 36 hour baugette and the San Joaquins?or other methods?

 

Sorry to read of that error.   My M.O. is to have all components lined up for inclusion as required.  During autolyse, I place the dish with scaled out salt on top of the vessel's cover so it cannot be forgotten.  Same with bassinage water, oil and add ins during the first fold.  

As I wrote yesterday and then again just minutes ago - early errors are magnified downstream.

Salt as an initial component or to be avoided too early in the process.  What say ye, yes or no?  Let's let Martin Philip state it himself on this IDY Classic Baguette video. Levains too?  Jeffrey Hamelman, and again with Trevor J Wilson .  I'm not promoting it, merely exposing the methods of some experts.

When I close the seam mine always sticks to the bench and I have to use a scraper to dislodge it. If it starts to stick, stop and fix the problem. I do a loose pre shape and the exposed innards are always sticky so I start first by patting it with a floured hand but not so much that it doesn't seal properly. Having a small pile of flour on the bench to rub your hands in helps while trying to keep the bench clean so that it will roll and not skid or slide.

although the crumb and shaping look really good.  The second batch takes a blue ribbon home, again a nice crumb.

If you follow the formula and it worked out to 68% hydration, the dough should be supple and easy to work with.  What is your work counter made out of?  Watch the Martin Philip rolling baguettes video again and pay attention to how he deals with flour on the workbench.  He is also working on a maple bench which give him an advantage over most other materials.

Once more we can dispel to the world of high-falutin' high-hydration bakers that we can achieve a lovely open crumb structure at below 70%.

The dough is very extensible, but also seems a little shaggy. When doing the French folds, it seems to become more shaggy at first, and then less shaggy, but only up to a point. The appearance of shagginess mostly goes away after resting, but sometimes returns when I need to work with the dough again.

Maybe I should just drop the hydration by a couple percent? It has been very humid here the past week or so. My apartment's counter is some kind of laminate. It is very smooth and non-porous.

I'll definitely give the Martin Philip video another look.

Thanks for all your advice!

person on the CB to report on a shaggy and/or wet dough.  My flour is supermarket AP flour - actually a mix of Walmart AP, all I could find at one point, and Pillsbury Bread flour, blended to try and emulate my typical King Arthur AP flour at 11.7% protein.  The WW is KA WW.  And I can find nothing more than a somewhat stiff but quite pliable dough during the French Folds.  

What I do find is that this dough, as with many other doughs, tends to become thick loop of "rope" as it is being FF'ed.  Then it comes together after another ~20 FFs, and eventually we repeat the rope/no rope routine, even after the 5 minute rest period.  By the time it is ready for the first Letter Fold, the dough has relaxed completely and the gluten has become well developed.  At this point it is completely pliable and quite extensive without being slack in any sense.

Without being elbow to elbow with someone else, it is beyond me to diagnose why you are experiencing this slack and sticky dough.  As Mr. Philip demonstrates and MTloaf mentions, beware of copious dough on your workbench.  Your dough will become too slippery to easily roll and could incorporate some raw flour ending up with a white vein running throughout the loaf.

alan

This is quite a mystery: I am currently using KA AP and WW.

One possibility that comes to mind is the water: we have very hard water here, (> 300 PPM). The KA website says that hard water has a tightening effect on gluten and slows fermentation (I definitely noticed the second one when I moved). Perhaps the hard water causes the gluten to be tight enough that 300 FFs will actually over-work it? The way the dough becomes shaggy does seem a bit like dough that has been manipulated to the point of gluten break-down.

I've already mixed batch #3, but for batch #4 I'll trying doing fewer French folds and get back with the results.

Well, after today's run, I think that it's either bad FF technique or some aspect of the weather that I'm managing poorly.

For today's batch, I did the development in a food processor (three 30 second pulses with 5 minutes gap between each). The dough that emerged was smooth and shiny rather than rough. The weather also cooled off by ~10F and was much less humid, so the bulk ran slower, although the final degree of proof seemed about the same. The dough was smooth and easy to work with. Hopefully it will show in the bake.

 

OK I think I have figured out what is happening with my starter and sourdough bread.  As soon as it got warm here in Toronto, I noticed that my starter was very sluggish compared with the winter.  It didn’t make any sense to me, I proof in my proofer and even the flour is the same that I feed it.  But bake after bake was underproofed or really slow to ferment.  I’ve always filtered and left water out overnight to use for sourdough.  So finally I looked into the water treatment in Toronto and it looks like in the summer months they add chloramine to the water in addition to the chlorine.  Well of course the water filter doesn’t remove chloramine very well and leaving it out overnight does nothing.  Aiya!!!  I will have to start buying bottled water for baking sourdough from now on, frustrating, well at least this explains things now.  Once it gets cold again I guess they will stop using chloramine so I can go back to just using filtered water.  I hate the idea of all those plastic bottles I will be buying and recycling, it seems so wasteful especially since recycling doesn’t always get recycled.  Also, living in an apartment, we just don’t have that much storage for big bottles of water.  Oh well, at least I think the mystery is solved.  Once I get some bottled water I will have to do a test and feed two starters one with the filtered and the other with the bottled water and see how they grow.

Anyhow, the baguettes are shaped after a really really long process but the IDY 0.1% did help the bulk fermentation move along better.  Using the aliquot jar I think I hit 30ish percent rise so fingers crossed for something good with baking tomorrow morning.

Good catch! Not everyone is a man of science like yourself. As the Coors beer slogan says "It's the water" I consider myself fortunate to have well water in Montana. I read that a charcoal filter like a Brita can remove some of the cloramine and ammonia but it mostly requires an RO system. I suspect water is probably at the root of the problems so many people have been having getting a sourdough started. I wonder if it is even possible to make a starter  and maintain it with bleached flour and bleached water?

Way to take the first bite of the yeast apple. I will be doing the same this weekend. I doubt it will lead to banishment but a better baguette.

Well I now have to test my hypothesis.  I will buy some bottle water tomorrow and do a two small levains, one with the filtered tap and other with bottled water and see what the doubling time on them is.

The shaping of my hybrid baguettes went alright I think, fingers crossed they will be at least as good as my Anis Bouabsa baguettes.  I really did love the thin crisp crust on those baguettes.

This is quite interesting---I notice after I moved a couple years ago that my starter had changed despite me using all the same flours (some of them brought along on the move). Perhaps the water was the reason.

Hope is works out in any case!

Benny.. I'm curious to learn what your experiment reveals. I've never had that problem and use the same water you do. My first reaction would be the flour you're using but you've said it's the exact same. But is it the same batch or brand? Maybe something has changed during covid with the supply chain and the brand you're using has changed something before it gets in the bag. The other thought is that it could just be your starter. Maybe a long shot, but worth thinking about. Then there's the comment you made about adding some IDY to your starter, I wouldn't. I think that might change the nature of your starter - you'd have to look that up. Adding iDY to a dough with levain is one thing. Adding IDY to your starter I'm not sure. Let me know about your water test. If I miss the post message me when you put it up. Good luck!

 

Frank, I am truly hoping it is the water and not my starter, however that becomes harder to accept as the cause if you haven’t noticed any change in your starter behavior recently with the change in weather since you use the same water.

When I mentioned adding some IDY to the dough, I meant this particular baguette dough and not my starter.  My starter will remain unadulterated.

In terms of the flour, I have been feeding my starter the same whole organic red fife that I buy from 4 Life in Kensington Market.  It is sold in bulk and is labeled to be from the same mill.  I bought quite a bit so the batch was the same from the time prior to and after the change in vitality of my starter.

I am heating the oven now to bake my sourdough bread and then hybrid baguettes.  I will head out to the store later when they open to get the bottled water and do the test.

Well I believe I am wrong about it being the water, I now think it is just my starter being slow.

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This is four hours after a 1:2:2 feed, TW is tap water and BW is bottled water in this case spring water.

They have essentially the same rise and neither has hit double yet after four hours which seems a bit slow to me.

I’m going to take Dan’s advice and build a new starter from a bit of my old one and feed it rye for the next while and see where that gets me.

Frank, thank you for chiming in letting me know that you weren’t having any issues with our water, much appreciated.

Benny

Benny, it would be nice to get the starter to double in 3.5 - 4 hours at 80-82F, assuming you are mixing with RT water.

Give the rye feed a try. Once built up, I think you’ll see a more active starter. If you want to cycle the feeds faster, start with 90F water and ferment at 84F. The more feed cycles you give it the stronger it should get. In 2 or 3 days with aggressive feeding it should be hot to trot. Like I wrote you, if you can’t watch it, then feed a higher ratio and/or temporarily put it in the fridge while away. Let is just begin to recede before re-feeding.

Let us know your results.

Benito - I tried an experiment a while ago and found that unbleached AP flour gave my starter the best and quickest rise over bread or a blend of bread and whole wheat. You might want to try another experiment trying the same with your starter.

Frank that is actually a good idea, but the levain I built for this bake was an all AP levain and it was very slow, which is what lead me to wonder about the water vs starter.  I have another experiment going right now looking at another hypothesis, after that one is complete I may then run a third with your suggestion.

 

I have found that an entirely fed WW starter is a little more temperamental and a white flour one to be less so. I feed mine with white flour that has 5%rye four added to it like Kristen from Fullproof does. My starter peaks in seven hours and nearly triples in that time especially now in the summer months. It has a lot of strength and does not tear apart easily. Today 160 grams went right up to the lid in a two cup mason jar. 

I’m not sure what led me to decide to feed my starter all whole wheat, I cannot recall.  Interesting about using AP since it is the least expensive and most widely available.  I’ve avoided doing a blend to feed for lack of storage space for another container of flour, but I might so something like that once I get my starter more robust.  Thanks for the suggestion Don.

Dan said it was alright to keep you guys updated with my trials with my starter rehab.  I decided also to do another experiment to compare different flours as feeds today.  I hope you don’t mind me posting here.

Yesterday I started an offshoot of my original starter John Doe two feeds of whole rye 1:2:2. This morning prior to doing another feed I decided to compare three different flours as feeds, each 1:2:2, AP, vs Red Fife vs Rye - each using the newly fed rye starter.  I also as a control, fed my original starter 1:2:2 with Red Fife.  The water used was filtered tap water at room temperature around 76ºF this morning.  Then each went into the proofer at 82ºF.

After four hours.

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L to R Control with old starter fed red fife, the next three used the new offshoot rye starter fed L to R Rye, Red Fife and AP.

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Old starter

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Rye Starter fed Rye

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Rye starter fed red fife

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Rye starter fed AP.

The old starter is certainly less vigorous than any of the offshoot starters fed twice yesterday with rye.

Rye is the most vigorous and rise about 1.5 x, red fife is next more vigorous rising 1.25 x and AP least vigorous of these three with a 1x rise.  I’m letting them go further since they are all domed and rising still.

Maybe you removed the covers, but if you are not using them, the domes will dry out and not stretch well.

I know Brod & Taylor claims humidity with the small tray, but I’m not buying it.

You should have a very active starter soon. Looks like water was not the issue.

You’re right I hadn’t covered them, I fixed that.

8 hours into 82ºF fermentation, again same order L to R, original starter with red fife, new starter fed rye, new starter fed red fife and new starter fed AP.  

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They had all peaked by 8 hours the time of this photo, I was working and missed the peak but each had started to fall and lost their domes except the rye starter fed rye, it was domed but appeared to be falling.  I’d say at peak closer to 7 hours the ones made from new starter fed rye and red fife had grown the most and were 2.5-3x, AP was very similar just a bit less and the original starter was slower and less than 2.5 x.

The new starter I’m doing another feed of rye today and then maybe a couple more tomorrow then on Wednesday I will switch it to WW again.  I’ve always found AP to rise the most slowly just like doughs with little whole grain, they have always fermented more slowly than whole grain doughs.  Hopefully I can get a levain started on mid day so I can bake something Thursday to bring for a visit to family on Friday.

Thanks for helping with my starter issue and I’ll try not to clutter this vast thread with more starter posts.

I, for one, find it interesting. This is a direction I think I'll be heading soon as I strive for more oomph in oven spring. Are you intending to try the baguettes with each starter?

I'm itching to try messing with this (original one posted, not revised) but I feel like I've got 6 batches or so before I head that direction. On the verge of nailing some things down.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with your new starters.

I’m going to be giving the new offshoot rye starter another day of rye feedings then move it to WW.  

The smaller starters I did were experiments. I wanted to know if there was a difference between the new starter vs the old when being fed the same WW, there definitely was.  I also wanted to know what flour feeding gave the fastest and best rise, and based on my experiment for my starter it would be rye, then WW then AP.  I wasn’t intending to keep those test starters going, I just need one starter that is strong, having so many would seem a waste of flour and space in my fridge for me.  But the experiments were all useful learning for me.

Benny

All ingredients were used in the same proportion as Alan's formula included by Dan at the head of the call for bakers. I have only mixed AP & bread flour in the same proportion and also used a stiff 50%-hydrated levain, which was built in two stages as well. The hydration in the first stage was 100%, while it was 50% in the second. Another difference is that I was too lazy to apply 300 French folds, so after autolysing I only slightly kneaded it for 1 min and applied 4 sets of double-handed stretches and folds with the dough in the fermentation bowl every 40 min. I really enjoyed working with a 68% hydration dough. The crumb turned out great, soft and airy, while the taste was superb and crunch. It did not even cooled down properly and I cut one open.

Thanks Dan and Alan for organizing this CB.

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Peter, did you use home milled grain? If so, how would you describe the dough?

I mixed another batch today and measured the water. Since using home milled grain, the hydration was upped to 71%. But since I also didn’t slap and fold, the dough may have worked at 70% hydration.

Like you! I elected to allow the dough to develop using time rather than aggressive manipulation. Going to give that a try.

Danny

Hi Danny,

They are all off-the-shelf commercial flours. AP from KA, bread flour from Pillsbury, and old batches of whole wheat and rye that I still have in storage. My whole wheat is quite course. You can even see the bits of bran on the crust picture.

I did not have issues with the water content, although I think the flour could take more water. I have not retarded and after bulking for 3.5 hours, I divided and pre-shaped into boules. Rested on the bench for 40 min before final shaping. Final proof took about 1.5 hours before baking in the oven with steam generated by pouring water on a cast iron skillet.

I need to work more on the shaping to make the baguette more uniform across its length, even though I enjoy the rustic irregular form of the first batch.

And welcome to the club!  As you've now experienced a 68% dough like this is really a delight to work with.  At times it feels like it wants to help us roll it out.

Awaiting the next round.

Nice symmetry, very tidy. I am intrigued by how the light can change the perception of the crumb from white with brown specks in the sunlight to a tan shade in indirect light. I notice the same thing in my photos.

(Can one get thrown out for baking too much?#!)

So round 2 and 3. I did two batches, exact same method for mixing, etc.

I decided I needed to quantify things. So from now on, my loaves are 17". 3 loaves per batch. Bake 10minutes with steam or covered, then remove steam, 7 minute bake, 3 minute oven rest and remove.

Batch 1- retarded 1 loaf immediately after shaping, 1 after 30 minute rest, one at about 50 minutes. Fridge to oven baking. The results were as expected- preferred the 30 and 50 minute ones.

 

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Batch 2-

Tried baking in the upper oven with steam. Finish wasn't good and burned out another light..boo hiss! No pic.

Experimented with a cover again. I like the ease of using a cover but I'm baking off my baguettes one at a time while I'm learning so much. (And my oven lights will stop busting from the steam then.) As opposed to a boule, that's not much dough to create steam under the cover. I used Sylvia's towel idea under a large aluminum pan with the baguette next to it. Guess what???? You can have too much steam. I'm going to back down to a washcloth instead of a kitchen towel, inside a very small bread pan. While the excess steam destroyed the structure of the loaf, I'm much happier with the oven spring! Should be fun to play with. The crust was thin and the crumb was real soft.

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It convinces me that Alan is right and my other loaves are drying out too fast. I improved the steam a lot today- Sylvia's towel and lava rocks. There's a learning curve and room to grow.

Mixed dough 5 minute in kitchenaid, then 150 slap and folds. I feel like the crumb was less open. Might be an acceptable loss while working on steam, shape etc.

And...I switched to a new blade brand for my lame on the last loaf. So much better quality. Cut like butter! My yucky cuts now make sense.

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Tomorrow adding diastatic malt. Scoring practice.

We're stuck with you ;-) .

Super word of caution.  Your loaves are already well caramelized.  Most flours in the US and likely Canada from the major mills  have malted barley flour aded to them already. If you add more than a pinch, you can look up recommended amounts, your crumb may well turn gummy, a complaint I've seen on TFL numerous times.

Quick analysis:

  • I create what dabrownman refers to as mega-steam in my oven and it is never too much.  But there's a certain point where you have to vent the oven to release the steam, as you are already doing, and allow the bake to finish.  As your loaves certainly seem to abide by.  I go for a full 12-13 minutes of steam, some will only do about 5 minutes.  You should decide which one suits your needs best, anywhere along that scale of time.
  • Uneven coloration on sidewalls indicate these were baked too close together.  Except they are baking independently (as he starches his head).
  • Semi-scorched top may be the bake was too hot or the dough was too close to an overhead baking element. But under a baking cover, still scratching his head.
  • "sausage cuts" scoring.  Review my few videos at the top of the post and try to see how your scoring compares to what other and I do and what is different.
  • On a double edge razor blade I'll get 100 or more scores before exchanging the blade tip for the next.  This includes slicing through surface nuts and fruit added to the dough.
  • See companion write-up on my burned out bulb melodrama.  I don't recall seeing others have a similar experience when they steam.
  • Don't give up the ship!

Only come with practice. It seems some of yours are cut too much across the axis. Try to stay in the center lane more. The amount of overlap you have is good. Your post bake analysis is spot on and will take you far.  A little more tension in the skin and a baking stone is a big help in the baguette bloom department. I look forward to seeing more bakes from you so post away. 

So I’m hopeful that these will have a nice crumb, fingers crossed.  You’ll recall that my levain was super slow even when proofing at 80ºF, so when I mixed this dough I added 0.1% IDY.  This move bulk fermentation along nicely and after about 2 hours had about 30% rise so I pre-shaped, rested then shaped on my cotton couche which I now use rice flour to ensure that there is no sticking and cold retard at 2ºF for about 15.5 hours.  Baked as per recipe.

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Here’s the crumb.

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I do think that they IDY made a difference, but of course it is hard to be sure without doing it side by side with and without.  However, bulk fermentation went along more quickly compared to my first try at this so I’d have to say yes it did help.  My shaping is a bit tight in the center compared to the ends, but I cannot complain compared to the horrible baguettes I turned out earlier.  As always, the crumb will tell whether or not this was a good bake. 

A world of difference from your past bakes, especially the most recent.

Baking reminds me of bowling.  Once I stopped bowling regularly in leagues in my early 20s my times at the bowling alley  were few.  By the second game I was trying to analyze too much and overcompensated for what I thought had to be corrected.  I was thinking things through too much.

And I've seen myself do that occasionally with baking as well.  Maybe that's you too.

Hi Alan, thanks for the comments on my fourth go at baguettes.  The shaping went better than before, I was trying to get thinner profiles on them and I think I achieved that, however, the centers are thinner than the ends, I’ll work on that in the future.  

I am pretty analytical and yes I will sometimes over analyze things and then over think them.  However, my first bake here was just a disaster with my levain.  I’m going to try to figure out my starter and water and test my theory today, but Frank says he is using filtered Toronto water and is fine, which leads me to think that it is my starter.  Also, if I were to try this again, perhaps I should follow the two step levain build to see if I can get more oomph from my levain build.

Oh I should mention my steam set up and what happened at bake.

I do have a towel in a loaf pan with water along with a cast iron skillet that I place 250 mL of boiling water into after loading the baguettes.

I accidentally pre-heated the oven at 550ºF when I was on autopilot from baking pizzas this week.  About 10 mins before taking the baguettes out of the fridge, I noticed that the temperature was way too high and turned it down to 460ºF.  I wonder if heating it super high might have helped the oven spring?  The bottoms of the baguettes didn’t burn so perhaps the high temperature was helpful.

The best ones yet. We are going to give you a mulligan on your previous bake. Way to call an audible and adjust your methods to suit the circumstances. The baguette brigade will be recommending you for officer training. I would highly recommend that you get a flax couche and training it with white flour. I got mine from King Arthur and like it very much. 

I appreciate the mulligan Don!  Yes if I am going to bake baguettes now and then I should probably get a proper flax linen couche that way I don’t have to contaminate my pastry cloth with rice flour.

Yes this bake was definitely the best of the four sets of baguettes that I have baked, good enough that I ate one for lunch.

Wow, benny.

 Way to make a dramatic comeback! I love everything about these baguettes! Congratulations! 

 Question for you, at 2 degrees F, your freezing these for the 15 hr. retard? 

I’m sorry Will for my error, I’m always switching back and forth when typing ºC vs ºF and make errors because of this.  I had my fridge down to 2ºC because I was very wary of the addition of IDY causing over proofing while the shaped baguettes were in the fridge.

 


Baked 4 baguettes @ ~330g a piece. Used Alan’s SD formula above with no CY. The main focus for this bake was a softer crust and crumb. KendalM told me he also likes softer baggies. He told me to bake them hot and fast. They were baked in 15 min @ 500F. NOTE - my oven cooks hot and fast. It always has. The crust and crumb was much more to my liking this time. Thanks Geremy!

NOW, on to the next point of focus. More oven spring... a lot more.
Below are some thoughts. Looking for the opinions of others.
This profile image shows why I think the dough is setting up too early.   Notice how the bottom of the loaf is raised high off the stone.

  1. Initially thought they were over-proofed, but the crumb doesn’t seem to indicate that. 
  2. Starting to believe the crust is setting too quickly. This would account for the very round profile of the slice. The bottom of the loaf is rising high and quickly off the stone.
  3. Considering the possibility of too much steam. I subscribe to Doc’s theory that steam doesn’t facilitate dough stretch, but that it does speed the browning and therefore the setting of the crust.
  4. If the crust is setting too fast the crumb will be adversely affected and the scores will suffer. The oven spring will be prohibited from expansion once the crust sets.
  5. Examine the crumb shot below after zooming in. It seems the center alveoli are rapidly expanding, but because the crust is setting up too fast the outer cell structure is compressed up against the hardened crust.

I may be barking up the wrong tree. If you think so, please share.

     
     

My granddaughter just sliced one.

Following KendalM’s advice to bake hot and fast has produced a softer bite and chew.

Danny

Looks great - full respect to another side-a-ways loader.   It's kinda normal for the ends to curl up like that but not so normal to have such a round cross section.  I think either the steam is too intense and or the dough isn't relaxed enough.  Hard to say.  As for steam I tend to go really easy on the amount of water I throw only the lava rocks it seems just a little puff does the job and at the end of the day just boils down (no pun intended) to just getting to know your equipment over many iterations.  Of course you have a totally different and sophisticated steam system so I couldn't really comment on how to throttle that bad boy.  Crumb looks amazing ! 

@Danny - Steam does one thing: it rapidly cooks the surface so long as the dough surface temperature is below the dew point in the oven.  It does not impact browning since browning only happens after the dough surface dries out and heats up to the point where you get Maillard products and or caramelization (depending on which theory you subscribe to).

Nice crumb.

Your round crossection is normal.  If you want it to be more oval, you may want to reduce the protein content of your flour or proof a little longer or reduce the oven temperature a little.  Once the surface is set, you have defined the length of the perimeter. The dough will expand until the hoop stress exceeds the dough strength.  It then breaks where you told it to, or where it is weakest in any case.

Good point about the Maillard Reaction. I hope to remember that. 

The loaves don’t actually brown until the very end of the bake. I mis-communicated... The crust hardens way before the browning is done.

Doc, do you have a profile image (slice view) of your baguettes? Also an image of your Demi’s?

to give that baguette a shave!  ?Oh Danny Boy, baguettes baguettes are calling?.  I'm beginning to think that you organized this CB just so that you could practice and demonstrate your skill set here!  Good shaping, good scoring, great crumb - it's all coming together now.

And again, another demonstration that we don't have to go with a high hydration dough to get an open crumb, although I think that you are breaching that 70% mark due to your flour.

The bottom would not be lifting off the stone as much if it wasn't hardening too soon or underproofed and it is obviously not under fermented. A proper steaming would create more of a sheen to the crust and less of a matte finish. Besides the oak bench your breads sit upon that is very recognizable, your other bakes have a similar look to them and as I recall, we discussed this issue previously. I don't remember if your oven is gas or electric?

My oven which is oddly made by Frigidaire (they apparently don't have a marketing dept.) is a base level non convection model that fortunately for me seals really well and doesn't require much effort to humidify it. My reading glasses fog up everytime I open the door even long after I remove the steam pan. I just ordered the 20 inch stone for my oven and am hoping it doesn't mess up the airflow.

All of your very fine efforts are being thwarted by your baking set up it seems to me. Maybe you could try a bake in a friends or neighbors house to see if there is a difference. 

There is a great section in The Bread Builders book that describes what happens when bread goes into the oven. I am going to read it again to see if I can find any clues.

MT,  can’t know for sure if your observation is wrong, but if it is correct I’d be very surprised. The only possibility that I can justify lack of steam is the consideration that my oven is leaking steam in buckets. I’m not completely ruling out that possibility. I can say that blisters and shiny crust is not a common occurrence for me.

When the oven cavity fills with pressurized steam it does leak through a vent in the bottom of the oven door. This can be seen in my time lapse videos on YouTube (notice the steam escaping the oven in the very beginning. That steam is escaping inbetween the double glass in the oven door. Though about blocking the vent, but was concerned about harming the electronics in the oven. This last bake was pre-steamed and utilized the External Steam Generator plus a cast iron pot loaded with lava runs and 8 ounces of boiling water.

For best viewing use THIS LINK

I would love to find any issues with my baking process. 
Danny

I was thinking as Kedalm says that there is too much steam. I was talking about a leaky oven in that it causes some like me to overcompensate. I had an oven with a warped door for a while and it was frustrating.

From The Bread Builders "Moisture and heat are the secrets to chewy and colorful crust- the kind of crust that is hard to produce in a metal kitchen oven. The degree to which starch in the dough will gelantanize depends on the presence of adequate available moisture and the maintenance of temperature within a specific range. Because bread crust dries out in the later stage of baking it's temperature will far exceed the boiling point of water, while the crumb will not. This high temperature sets (dehydrates) the starch gel, but excessive drying will burn it."

It doesn't make sense since you obviously have plenty of moisture but maybe the excess steam is taking you out of the of the specific range of the temperature required. Maybe some of the pros can chime in hear but I doubt your bread would come out the same in my oven.

Been there, done that.

For best viewing use THIS LINK.

If you pause the video at 0:43 you can compare the covered vs steamed. Notice the lack of sheen and lack of bubbles on both dough.

Don, I really appreciate your thoughts and help in troubleshooting this.

Danny

Of course you have. In my oven the top element does not come on for baking. Does yours? I have recently switched to putting a sheet pan on the very top rack and pouring about of cup of boiling water in it after loading. I am not suggesting that method but maybe putting a sheet pan above the bread so that it receives the blast of steam and the loaves are protected from that and would remain cooler but still benefitting from the humidity.

MT, a few years back I looked into the possibility that the top element was coming on during the bake. Unfortunately, I don‘t remember what I learned. But the oven is now set to 375F and baking Lassagna. My back could use the rest so I laid on the floor looking up for about 15 min and never saw the glow of the top element.

My oven cooks super even with no hot spots ever. I mentioned in another post that all of my bread bakes are considerably quicker than the recommendations and even other bakers on the site. Today I’ll be baking KendalM’s baguettes. I am considering reducing the temp to 450F.

Can you imagine how great it would be for me if this could be solved?

Thanks,
Dan

The concern here is too much heat on the top of the loaf causing the crust to set (harden) pre-maturely. This would cause the oven spring and ears to be reduced or completely eliminated.

Even though there was no visible sign that the top heating element was turning on, a thermal log shows that, in fact it is. The two lighter lines located at the very top show the heat levels captured by two probes. It seems the top element is cycling on and of during the bake cycle. The middle line shows the temperature and inch or so above the baking stone. And the lowest line shows the temp at the very bottom of the oven. The oven is a GE Profile Electric.

 

Nice discovery This explains every thing with your bakes.

A sheet pan on the top shelf to use as a shield or use as a steam pan like I suggested above might help a lot. You could then remove it after the steaming phase to help with browning. I hope the venting isn't an issue or I see a new oven in your future. Your avatar is so apropos now.

Don

Don, I can almost completely seal the oven but I am concerned about messing up the electronics in the Induction stove top.

Getting ready to bake 3 now. Doing Martin’s Poolish Baguettes but the dough is not working out for me. CY is so fast. The dough is too puffy and difficult to work.

Plan to bake #1 using my aluminum cover. Will inject some steam through the port

#2 on stone with pan on top rack to shield heat. Injected steam

#3 stone, pan on top rack, steam n lowest pan with lava rocks.

Bread may not bake up well but hopefully I can learn something about the oven, baking, and steam

I am in the same boat. I have to cut the yeast by at least half to match the times in most recipes. Some of that might be elevation since I am at 4500 ft. Some of it could be a yeasty environment in our kitchens or our water. I think the mantra of "watch the dough and not the clock" should be followed by"don't turn your back back on it" when CY is in the mix. My poolish was ripe well before the 12 hours. It's a good thing I am an early riser. 

I am betting the oven venting will not be an issue with the top element riddle solved. Some ovens have a setting to control the top element. I have heard others mention that they preheat to an extreme temperature and then turn the oven off for the ten or so minutes of the steaming time before turning it back on.

I'm thinking a buffer from the upper element is my next step, too. I don't have another rack to put one on (12" total depth of oven) so we are going to have to get creative. Thankfully I have gained the interest of my other half...who is very interested in thermodynamics, apparently!

I thought I’d post my “cheater system” for baguette roll out length. I am way away from developing the skills to know the length from muscle memory.

I setup a sort of a “run way”.  Used blue non-stick painters tape. Maybe it will give others some ideas.


I considered cutting the cloche in order to narrow the width, but hated to do so. Ended up placing the couche on a baking tray that was the proper width and folding under the excess width of the flax linen. The extra width was challenging to get a plastic bag to cover.

Finally the weekend is here and I get to bake rather than work. It was helpful to sit on the bench and see a few pitches thrown to know what to expect. I didn't want to wander too far off the reservation while still keeping in the spirit of a baguette with more whole grain. The recipe is pretty much what we call country bread but I like the french word of campagne better. The rye grows wild in the wheat fields there and is harvested along with the wheat.  I make a version of it in my regular sourdough rotation and even an Approachable pan loaf.

My baton preference is the Bouabsa recipe an all white flour yeasted version that to me symbolizes the ideal. I saw a recipe for "country" baguette in the Martin Phillips book that seem to line up with the target so I went with a version of that. His has 15% WW which I changed to 5% and substituted the other 10% with half rye and spelt. It calls for 20% prefermented flour overnight  levain and the IDY kicker( I used half of the called for yeast of 3/4 tsp) with 73% hydration. Total dough weight is 675 gr that I rolled into two and baked sideways to hopefully get a longer thinner stick. A short hand mix, one compass fold and two coil folds in the first hour and another hour before dividing resting and shaping. A one hour proof with no retarding.They didn't want to lengthen without forcing them so I had to settle for short and fat. The cuts were a bit ragged and that I attribute to not enough sleep followed by too much coffee.

MP baton

and the obligatory crumb shot

MP crumb

The crust was indeed nice and crispy and the flavor was much better than anticipated, and plenty sour. I think I can do better with the crumb I may have rushed things a bit and swung at the first pitch. I may try these again tomorrow. I hope I am not considered a heretic for throwing in some yeast but I would encourage you all to give it a try. Thanks everyone for participating and thanks for the information and inspiration Alfanso.

The other one was compromised by trying to stretch the length out too much probably because I folded the preshape on the wrong bias. This is the most sour bread I have had in quite some time. Not sure why but the taste was really exceptional.

second MP

On second thought maybe overproofed a little. First time with a new recipe is always a shot in the dark.

and welcome to the Expand Your Horizons" club.  The crust on these generally is thin and crispy, and there is just enough whole grans in these type of Pain au Levain to keep the flavor so interesting.  Wonderful crumb too.

I'm not much of an innovator like yourself, more of a copy and and hope to improve upon kind of guy. Most of my horizons got expanded in the 70's thank you vey much and I made it through those episodes, at least the ones I can remember. Can't help but think how much more fun this would be if we were all working together in the same big kitchen rather than this new age Zoom format but at least we have this. Life without baseball is bad enough.

You observation may be correct. I am going to consider blocking off the vents in the door.

Couldn’t agree with you more about sharing a kitchen. The Community Bakes were born from this desire. It’s the best we can do with the Internet at this time.

Keep the ideas coming.

Danny 

Frirst, Danny, Benito, et al. great bakes. It's great to see the progression of everyone on their own baguette journey.

That said. I'm shattered..

In thinking about steam I looked up Sylvia's original post on creating steam. Unlike Al she puts the pans in empty and warms up the towels in the microwave. I decided to replicate her way. it was all organized. I was on the computer reading the posts above while the oven warmed. Kids started talking, the oven beeped, my brain took a mini-vacation. I had a kettle of boiling water ready to go and I took out the empty - now 475 degree - pyrex dish and put in the soaked towels without remembering to zap them in the micro wave to get them piping hot.  In the moment i look back and realize my subconscious was telling me something as I looked at the pryex quizically for a moment before I placed the first cold wet towel roll into the pyrex using tongs. And then pop and it shattered into a million pieces like a broken crystal glass. Looking back it was kind of cool actually. But thankfully it exploded out sideways and not upward. No one was hurt - other than my pride and it made for an adventurous family story. Immediately I realized that my baguettes were done for. Speckles of glass could be seen on the dough as they were right beside the pyrex dish ready to be loaded. I could pick away at them looking for microscopic shards of glass (some of which I could clearly see as the light sparkled off them) but it wasn't meant to be. I decided to slash and bake them just the same. There would still be much I could learn. But these will be the nicest baguettes I've made that I've had to (sadly) throw out. The last thing I need to is to have someone in the family or me eat a bit of glass.

Here they are. I tried a full long score and the traditional method. Both were lacking but I feel I could now do better seeing how they sprung.

Flour: I'm not able to get access to my usual flour (arva) so this is made with commercial AP flour - not home milled. 

Slap and fold: I decided to make like the french and literally slapped and folded for twenty minutes. The dough was actually much drier than I thought it should be at the outset. That could have just been my flour. I had no rye so substituted that amount with additional whole wheat. I wet my hands along the way and that added a bit more water.

Temperature: my kitchen was warm and running at about 76. when I baked I did so at 475 for the full bake. And i baked on a pizza stone on the middle rack left to right.

Bake time: 12 minutes with mega stream (this time using a metal loaf pans instead of pyrex!) and a cup in the hot lodge cooker. But I wonder if I had too much water in the loaf pans with towels - there was still an inch of water in each at the end of the bake but the lodge pan was dry. I wanted a darker crust (the pictures make it seem a bit darker than it really was) so I cooked for at least an additional 24 minutes after I removed the parchment and rotated the loaves after 12 minutes.

Crumb: very happy with this. I can't imagine more - I really liked it.

Crust chew: ok so I was very very careful and took a sample from the bottom of that open cut baguette. It was good but with a very chewy crust.  Al: I read Danny's comments about maybe crust being chewy because of temp or humidity. What's your take?

Shaping and scoring: I definitely need to practice this. I can see it requires a certain finesse.

Ok. I'll have to try this again so I can actually eat them!!

That's all for now..

 

Frank, my vote goes to you for the best crumb so far. I have no idea how it could be improved upon. Maybe a little less glass :D

How was the middle dough slashed? Single or multiple?

I am impressed...

Maybe I need to add 2% crushed glass to mine!

Danny