This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Thanks so much Yippie ????
There are over 2,000 replies under this thread! Let me add one more???
Thanks for posting the videos. I got a lot of information from them. It is amazing how non-airy your dough is at shaping and yet the crumb is outrageously great!
what if you put the seeds on either a dry cloth or parchment paper? That way you might be able to roll the dough in the seeds using the cloth or paper.
Have you thought about making the pleat in the couche after each dough is placed on it? That way it is ready to receive the next one. All of the pros do it that way.
When studying your video during scoring it looks to me that the blade is almost straight down. Check it out Benny and let me know what you think.
I watched my dough tonight like a hawk and pulled it at 20% increase. It really rises fast for me towards the very end. 15 min makes a difference.
Your videos inspired me...
Putting the seeds on a dry cloth is a great idea thanks Dan, I didn’t think of that.
Pleating the couche to have it ready for the next baguette is also a good idea, I think I used to do that but have stopped for some unknown reason.
I was finding it a challenge to score with the seeds, with the first one I had my blade about 60* from the dough surface. So as I went along I think my blade became closer to perpendicular as it was easier to score through the seeds. I didn’t even realize that my blade angle had changed from baguette to baguette but watching the video I think it did subconsciously. Apparently one can get decent ears and grigne with quite a variety of blade angles, which is actually a good thing when you aren’t scoring baguettes everyday and aren’t consistent.
Benny, they look fantastic. Ditto all the comments above.
Cheers,
Gavin
Thank you Gavin.
Spectacular. All around. The poppy seeds are so thick on the crust that they form a beautiful pattern where the scores have opened. Another incredible crumb as well. Bravo chap!
But it doesn't remind me of a deli rye bread that I made and then coated with caraway seeds. There is such a thing as too much, and this was my extreme example.
Thank you Alan. I was worried that the seeds would all fall off along the way. The first one I did I just placed onto the seeds and didn’t try to roll and they just had a coat on the top. I think the last one I did I figured out that I could gently give them a roll to get more on the sides. I do have to admit that I love seeds on breads and now that I’m able to make good bread my partner is no longer complaining about the mess that seed crusted breads make.
I’m still unsure that you can put too many seeds on a bread as long as you love the flavour of those seed.
Nice work Benny in Wonderland. They look exotic like stealth topedoes. If I tried that recipe I would be finding seeds around the kitchen from here to eternity. The videos were nicely done and your careful handling explains the open crumb. The sourdough version seems supple and less elastic than the yeasted ones I have been working with.
What's next? Hemp hearts!
I like the look of these baguettes too Don and the description of sheath torpedoes does seem to fit. I suspect I’ll be finding poppy seeds around the kitchen for a while too, but it is worth it for the flavour.
We were discussing pH and proteolytic enzymes a while back. I’ve been monitoring pH levels recently and documenting them. The baguette levain started with a pH of 5.7 after mix and was 3.99 pH just past peak. Baguette dough after mixing with levain was 6.23 and after the 20% bulk rise was 4.1 pH. After cold retard it had dropped to 3.97.
Thus by the time of dividing and pre-shaping the pH had dropped to less than 4. I believe if I recall correctly, I’m sure Doc will chime in on this if I’m wrong, but the proteolytic enzymes start to be quite active at pH < 4. If that is the case, that might partly add to the extensibility of the baguette dough during pre-shaping and shaping compared to what Don experiences with Bouasba or other commercial yeast dough. What do you guys think?
Great crumb as usual. I loved the videos too, very helpful. I need to be less fearful when shaping I think.
Leslie
Thanks Leslie, I’m glad you find the videos helpful. I’m still a bit fearful when shaping and transferring the baguettes but I’m gradually becoming less so.
The last of the frozen baguettes. Yippee Ki Yay, time to make another batch!
Now, let me assure you, this is not your school bag lunch bologna sandwich!
#MortadellaisNotBologna
I love the yellow crumb that the flour brings to these baguettes Will.
Ever since the hydration was increased, the ears are difficult to achieve and the straps break, but the oven spring has improved. Decided to give Benny’s poppy seed baguettes a try with the Bouabsa formula and method. 75% T65, 25% KAAP, mixed at 71.3% and only slightly developed the gluten. The gluten for the last bake (75% hydration & T65) was well developed and produced a dough that was lacking extensibility. This bake @ 71.3% was very slack and highly extensible, but shaping was fair.
Experience tells me that
Le Moulin d'Auguste Traditional Wheat Flour - T65 is heavily influenced by gluten development. It can be mixed at 75% hydration and lack extensibility IF the gluten is highly developed. The same dough, without highly developed gluten will be extremely slack and super extensible. I have not noticed this physical change with other types of flour.Poppy seeds -
Placed shaped dough on a wet towel and used that towel to roll them back and forth. Tried putting seed on parchment paper in hopes of rolling the dough similar to the towel method. Paper tore, didn’t work. Ended up putting the seeds on a towel with decent results at distributing seeds evenly. I think a stiff fabric, such as a linen couche would work best for rolling the dough in seeds. With this method the loaf has seeds all around the circumference, even the bottom. The flavor derived from the seeds was super!
Thoughts after 40 consecutive baguette bakes -
Your baguettes look like they have a really nice round circular cross section, is that right Dan. I’ve never been able to achieve that, but your oven spring looks very impressive and caused the broken straps, which don’t bother me whatsoever since they indicate amazing oven spring. Great job getting the seeds well applied all over. The crumb looks great as usual for you. Are you happy with the results of this bake?
The poppy seed crust is super flavourful and something I’ll be doing again in the future.
Crumb is nice, but I would love to produce the cell structure that you are so consistently doing. Benny is your signature crumb leaning towards over or under proofing at the time of your Final Proof?
The yellow coloring comes from the T65. If a stiff, closed weave fabric (linen couche, etc) is available, I think the rolling in towel method would work great.
I think I need to come to my senses and dial back the hydration. Don’s atmosphere must suck the moisture out of his dough :-)
Unless one experiences the increased flavor derived from the poppy seeds, describing the flavor is beyond me. I will be doing this often in the future.
I don’t know what to say about my “signature” crumb as you know I’ve gone to 35% bulk fermentation and had that crumb and now bulk to 20% but compensating with a late post shaping bench RT proof. I really have no secrets to achieving the crumb. You have now seen me dividing, pre-shaping and shaping and I’m not doing anything different from you guys.
Regarding hydration for my current flour I think the 70ish % feels good to me for dough handling and extensibility. I agree I think that Don’s environment is much drier than yours so I wouldn’t feel the need to get your hydration up where his is. I suspect as the winter comes my way my condo’s humidity will plummet and I may have to increase the hydration of my bread to compensate.
Everyone else on this CB who has baked baguettes enough times has achieved open crumb as I have, so I don’t really think that my crumb is any different from the rest of you guys.
Now I totally agree with you about the poppy seeds, now that I finally found a place to get them. Who knew they would be with the spices in the grocery store I never thought to look there. But the taste of the crust is incredible and rivals sesame seeds which I absolutely love.
It's hard to balance great oven spring with pronounced ears. I think that it is usually a game of give and take. Not saying it isn't or can't be done. A nice bake all around.
still working my way through freezer inventory combined with dieting, but soon I'll throw a short video out here demonstrating how I cover the dough with seeds. Far from innovative and simple to do, but it does seem to perplex some folks a little. If it helps to clarify, then it will be an easy "lesson" with value.
Yes would love to see you post this video Alan. thumbs up to that.
Alan, the difficulty with seeding baguettes has to do with dough that is highly extensible. Picking it up feels like you’re holding a dead snake that wants to stretch. Although (disclaimer) I have not nor do I ever intend to do so :-)
I have been having difficulty getting repeatable open crumb baguettes as I reduced the amount of manipulation performed on the dough during pre-shaping + final shaping. In the photo below, the upper sliced baguette received very little manipulation while the one below it was more aggressively handled. In the first case a strip of dough about 9" long was cut off the BF dough piece, rolled up very gently and rested for 35 minutes followed by two gentle circumfrential folds and just enough rolling to seal the seam. The second one was an irregular triangle with a few additional lumps of dough for weight adjustment, rolled up and incrementally tightened per Abel's technique into a cylinder about 8" long, rested 35 min and then rolled out gently but firmly to 21".
When these were cut open the first observation was that there is a line of fairly large bubbles right down the middle of each loaf, and while the general nature of the crumb is large irregular holes, there are areas with more compact crumb.
After photographing them and examining the images, it becomes more clear that the lower baguette actually has a considerably more open average crumb texture and there are areas of the upper loaf that are fairly tight, especially closer to the crust. In both cases the ends have a predominantly tight crumb.
The crust is crunchy and the crumb mildly sour and tasty. They are good baguettes but with detectibly different crumb characteristics.
I am going to repeat tomorrow with a slightly lower protein flour and the same (66%) hydration and gluten development and run the same split when dividing and shaping. These were divided at ~20% bulk fermentation volume increase.
I am starting to think that fairly aggressive handling during shaping helps the open crumb. Larger cells gets divided into smaller ones and smaller one consolidated into larger ones. I think that the firm patting down of the dough to flatten it somewhat prior to final shaping is an important step.
Doc, are you leaning in that direction?
the original CB formula at 70% hydration. Here is a very short video of the baguette being rolled in wheat bran. Rocked on wet towel, then rocked on coating. That's all that is necessary.
325g x 3 long batards
I can’t believe you’re able to rock the baguette on the seeds so easily. Are the seeds in a glass dish? I was trying to roll/rock them on a cookie tray, the last time I did do it pretty successfully, but nowhere near as efficiently as you were able to Alan. I may try putting the seeds on the cookie tray with a cloth underneath next time to see how that goes.
The first time I tried this the dough just pushed the seeds around so ended up sliding on top of the seeds no picking up any additional seeds on the sides. One thing I note from your video is that you seem to have quite a few more seeds on your dish that I placed in mine, at least in terms of depth. I’ll have to see if I have a better dish/tray to try this again in, maybe something with sloping sides
Thanks for posting the video Alan.
when I noticed three new emails. And then bummed when two were dups. How could you!
This is with wheat bran, but it is no different for seeds. The glass dish has a little concavity to it, being a serving dish that just happened to have the perfect length for the 15 inch batard. There really is a minimal depth, I just want to make sure that the dough gets a cover of the topping.
Not the topic for this exercise, but as you can see, I really don't baby the dough very much. Just interested in getting in there and getting the job done. I guess its my version of trying to be "production-style" where getting out the product is a key factor. Even at 70% hydration, I was surprised at how the dough still has to be pinched closed at a few (too many) points to ensure a good seal.
duplicate
Duplicate Sorry
With almost all things in life, everything is easy when you know what you’re doing.
I’m still following the directions to bake great baguettes and also get to Carnegie Hall. “Practice, practice, practice”.
The bran coating makes them even more appealing.
So, after the discussion in the other thread, I'm trying to make baguettes again, and following the formula and process in the first post here (https://fgbc.dk/svd)
My starter was a little sluggish today for some reason and took a long time to double (I normally feed it 50/50 BF/WW, I think it doesn't enjoy just BF much anymore, could be that, since the levain is just bread flour), so 2.5 hr of bulk have passed, but I see very little growth in the aliquot jar - but there definitely are signs of fermentation. I'll keep it longer hoping to see 20-30% growth as recommended, and will shape/retard until tomorrow. I'll bake on steel tomorrow morning without upper heating and hope it works out better than previously! Will report with updates :)
So it appears that in a small narrow aliquot jar the dough barely grows (maybe only the top of the meniscus, while the edges are almost not moving?), however the dough looks really nicely fermented, puffed up with lots of visible bubbles along the sides of the bowl. So overall I fermented for nearly 5 hours before preshaping... Which is maybe consistent with the slow growth of the levain anyway, so maybe not bad.
Shaping was a pleasure, very nice dough. Clearly full of air, but not slack. Not sticky, but a little tacky, so rolled well on an almost unfloured benchtop. Wasn't really a plan from the beginning, but got a couple thicker and shorter, and a couple thinner and a little longer baguettes. I'll pretend it's an experiment. Now they are retarding in the fridge overnight. I haven't tried baking baguettes from cold, beyond cooling them for 15 min in the end of proof. I imaging this must make it easier to transfer and score them.
Any opinion if the direction of baking is important? Like, all baguettes pointing away from the door vs baguettes parallel to the door?
most of what I bake is 14-15 inches long, and that is the depth of my oven and oven baking deck. When I shape something longer, us to 21 inches, I load the dough sideways where the width accommodates the length. There is no right or wrong direction.
Okay, here's one right. At the point where you release the steam and the bake is somewhere near half done, a little more or a little less, rotate the loaves in the oven, Left to right, front to back. There are hot and cool spots in the oven and you will want to ensure that the dough is not over exposed to either one. Is this a death knell if you don't? No. But you will get a better bake overall if you do rotate them.
I’ve been trying to max out the length of my baguettes to the width of my baking steel, 16” so the only way to do that is to “side load” the baguettes. So they are parallel to the door. I think that the baking is more even if loaded perpendicular to the door, but either way, as Alan says you should rotate them. I rotate them once at about the ¾ mark through baking and again 5 mins later.
Just vented the oven - YEAH BABY I'm getting baguettes!
My girlfriend really wanted one for breakfast while it was still hot!
So, I preheated the oven at top temperature (270°C) with only bottom heat with the steel there. I just had the steel on an oven rack in the lower third of the oven, nothing fancy. I also had a big baking tray in the top of the oven to reduce the volume that needs to be steamed.
A few min before baking, put in a tray with old oven mitts and water to presteam the oven, and an empty metal tray to preheat it. Scored and loaded all 4 baguettes parallel to the door and added a blast of steam with some boiling water poured into the second tray. Reduced the temp to around 240°C.
Baked with steam for 15 minutes, but I think it didn't need that long actually, maybe 10 min would be enough. Then vented the oven and switched on the top element (and took out the top tray). Baked for 15 min,(rotated the baguettes around 10 min mark) then thought it wasn't enough and left for around 5 min more (and rotated the baguettes once more).
Overall, this was a great success! Definitely really nice baguettes, a little sour and tasty. The crust is amazingly crispy (well, they are just out of the oven, let's see how it performs later). The bottom is hard, but not burned. The crumb could be more open.
The only actual issue is that the sides of the baguettes are not cripsy, but soft! Must be because they were very close to each other. The ones sides that faced the door or the back of the oven seem good though, so maybe next time I should also change the order of the baguettes - just put the fist one last, and repeat two times, so all baguettes get crispy from both sides... Or load fewer at a time. This time I put them back in the oven on the side and grilled them a little :) Seemed to help at least somewhat.
Ilya, looks like you are off to a great start!
What differences did you notice between this formula and method versus your previous bake?
Danny
Thanks Danny!
For the formula, this was lower hydration and more whole grain flour. Also I think 300 slap&folds developed super gluten.
Retarding the shaped baguettes makes it much easier to score (although I was OK with warm baguettes too I think), and transfer onto the peel, and into the oven. Previously they would always stretch a lot and start flattening before even hitting the oven.
I don't know whether only bottom heat was important, but that was also a difference.
It appears you have a knack for baguettes. Your attention to detail is obvious from reading your latest post. If you continue and are consistent you will see speedy improvements, considering your progression from this bake to your last.
How much of this gigantic thread did you read?
Glad you joined the CB!
Thank you! I know the devil is in the details. I will definitely keep working on the baguettes. I'd like more open crumb, and less of a whole wheat flavour. One of my less miserable baguette bakes before, was when I tried the Kamut baguette recipe from Maurizio (still a complete failure compared to these), I am thinking maybe using Kamut as the whole grain component could be nice stepping stone? Or einkorn. Or just reduce whole wheat? I guess that should help open the crumb a bit too.
I read the first couple of pages, and looked through the end too. There is so much info,! But not particularly well organized :) I'm glad to join this effort, and hope to learn and let others learn from my mistakes too!
For less wheaty flavor, quite the opposite, try a semolina/durum based formula or the Hamelman Vermont SD, both versions that I bake and post on TFL are on the low hydration side as well.
Thank you alfanso!
Would you mind sharing links to the formulas? You have posted a lot of baguettes, and in variations, a bit tricky to find the base recipes :)
When Mr. Hamelman refers to "Bread Flour" he is referring to a flour with a similar composition to the King Arthur AP flour at 11.7% protein, rather than a flour in the USA labelled as "bread flour".
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51572/vermont-sd-baguettes-course has the write up and formula.
With experimentation I've recently scaled back my French Folds from 300 down to 40-50 with a 5 minute break about halfway through. And I leave the gluten development to the bulk ferment. Also point out that my kitchen is typically 78-80dF year round which may well affect your fermentation time.
Thank you! I haven't seen any flour with such protein content around here, there is either "plain" flour with <10%, or bread flour with >12%, which I just use as the base for most breads, and seems fine with any recipe.
What do you use as Durum flour? Is coarse semolina OK? Or is it semola rimacinata?
You could blend your flours to reduce the protein of the stronger one. I used semola rimacinata for my semolina baguettes.
Thank Benny, I considered using some plain flour in todays bake, but didn't, following Lance's advice in the other thread.
Thanks, I know a source of semola rimacinata here, a nice Italian deli. Just ned to cycle over there one of these days. Got the 00 flour from there too - that was around the AP flour protein-wise, actually, I think.
A high quality 50:50 mix of bread flour and durum flour.
https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-pasta-flour-x-1kg
Oh cool, thanks Abe! They might have that at realfoods here.
Or in Wholefoods. It comes in at 12% protein and has a lovely texture.
the preferred, by far is semola rimacinata, also sometimes just called durum. It is machined to a fine powder. Definitely not coarse Semolina, but I've gotten away with Semolina #1. Durum is a hard grain in comparison to most other wheats, and responds accordingly. If you can't locate it Dave in Indy suggests finding an Indian grocer that sells ATTA flour, also a durum. - check the label for ingredients. I bought a bag and it seems every bit as good as the semola r. and less costly.
Check out Benny's results with his take on the semolina/durum baguettes. Simply top shelf stuff.
Thanks! My girlfriend actually almost used up the semolina we had on halwa yesterday (delicious), so would need to buy one or the other anyway! I know where I can get semola rimacinata, but an Indian ATTA flour is an interesting idea, I might swing by one of the Indian shops and check if they have it.
I find it a lot easier to start with a known-good formula and coax it in the direction that I want (less IDY; more PFF; higher hydration; different flour; different steam delivery; ...) than it is to start from some random initial formula for which I have no performance history. Even if I start with a formula provided by somebody I trust, I still insist that I bake it a few times to make sure that I am getting consistent results (even if they are not great, at least I know where I am). For baguettes I would suggest a 100% white wheat flour baseline, perhaps something around 11% protein and once you have that one in hand, change one thing at a time until you get to where you are again happy.
Thank you Doc - that is exactly what I am doing, following a recipe recommended by the bakers here, so I know it should work! And then considering how to move towards the direction where I would like it to be (whiter and more open).
Loving those ears
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Wow Ilya, those look really great, nice ears, you don’t know how long it took me to get ears. Good shaping too.
Benny
Thanks! Followed your videos for shaping, I like the "tube" preshaping :) When I tried it before as a boule I got a lot more shrinkage along the length of the beguette when shaping.
Yes, I’m so glad that you found the videos helpful. I too prefer the tube/cylindrical pre-shaping. I think most of us found by trial and error that we had less retraction of the length of our baguettes when pre-shaped this way.
Baked Benny’s formula and used his method. After 41 bakes, most of then CY, the SD version was a nice change. Mixed at 70% hydration, but it seems 68% may have been a better choice. Used KAAP flour.
By the way. These were scored straight down with no angle on the blade. Because of the slack dough, it was much easier this way.
I am having a difficult time getting the crumb (cell structure) to focus sharply. May need a new lighting angle or the high light temp (6000K) is having a negative affect. The colors are accurate when placed against a white background, but the crumb shots are poor quality.
So what did you think Dan? I know you didn’t use your T65, but what is your assessment of this bake?
I enjoyed the change to SD. The flavor was a little more intense and complex. Not really sour, but very different from CY only. The crust and crumb was nice.
I am considering going back to the original (Hamelman’s Pain au Levain). If I do, I want to try only slightly developing the dough, to see how that affects the outcome.
After over 40 consecutive baguette bakes, my favorite is Bouabsa, but this was a nice change.
I find that I like essentially no whole grain in my baguettes, although the Bouabsa is definitely up there for flavour I am enjoying my primarily white wheat sourdough baguettes. I like the additional complexity and then having seeds on them make them all the better.
Benny
I have always wanted to do a seeded baguette. Benny’s poppy seed coated baguettes were amazing. Inspired me to have a go at my version.
This is a hybrid dough. Rye starter base and KASL levain. 12% bread flour main. I had a hard time with the 10% flour last time. So going a bit to the other end to try above 12% protein dough. Since this has IDY I did not do an over night cold retard.
60% hydration. 2% salt. 1g diastatic malt powder. Pinch of Instant dry yeast
500g total flour
4 coli folds. 8g each poppy, white sesame, and black sesame (toasted) folded in (lamination) and spritzed with Water after 3rd fold.
prepreshaped, preshaped, final shaped.
preheated Oven with steam Trays. These are the slender cast iron grill humidifiers I got from amazon.
15 mins with steam. And 15 with trays removed and vented.
I really like the feel of the dough this time. I was able to shape fairly evenly. Was able to handle it without it being too floppy or stretchy. For the first time I felt like the scoring went very well.
results were decent but I’m still not getting the proper spring im looking for and as usual only one ear per loaf again.
I am still fairly happy with my progress and know what to try on next iteration.
1. leave out diastatic malt. Crumb was little bit too moist, not quit gummy but makes me wonder.
2. Triple the amount of seeds. It isn’t nearly as fragrant of sesame as I like
3. Need to give my whole oven cloche another go. The steam trays were just not producing enough to fill the whole oven.
Here are more pics
james
James your shaping and scoring looks excellent. Are you baking them cold or room temperature? The wrinkles in the dough look like you are baking room temperature dough. You might find that the oven spring is better if you try baking from cold.
How much rise are you aiming for during bulk?
wow. you can tell that it was room temp?? my fridge is not wide enough to cold rest baguettes. I wasnt using an aliquot jar for this one. i think it's around 30% rise. They're 280g loaves. I felt really good about the shaping and the scoring, but it should have better oven spring. Will try with better steam next time. i could see the crust locking up a few minutes in, tried to add more steam but it was too late. I had two slender steam boxes and i also put water on steal plate at bottom of oven. maybe i need to just turn the oven off for the first 15 minutes. i think that will help. i like the seeds in the dough. and the oil from the sesame makes for a very crispy crust. may try a straight yeasted version too.
Yes I’ve scored room temp, cold and “had to take out of the oven after a couple of minutes because I forgot to score the dough” baguettes so recognize the wrinkles in the skin at the scores. ?
I was finding that when I bulk fermented to 30% rise that my oven spring and ears suffered. I reduced to 20-25% and allowed some room temperature proofing after shaping and have had better ears and oven spring without any deterioration of the crumb. Just a thought.
Your shaping and scoring really are great though James.
This time, Hamelman’s Pain au Levain according to Alan’s formula in the original post. Except 8% home milled Hard Red Wheat and 2% home milled Rye.
The only variation from the method was very minimal up front gluten development (no slap and folds). To my amazement, the dough was super extensible. So much so that one of the dough (pictured on the bottom) was folded length wise and then rolled up for the pre-shape to facilitate easier shaping. I have baked this altered formula many times before and the dough was always super elastic. So much so, that additional water was often added in an attempt to loosen the dough. This was a hands on lesson in the power of up front gluten development for me.
Dan what is your take on sourdough baguettes now with this bake? Are you starting to enjoy them more?
I note that you’re getting the elongated alveoli that Geremy often gets, are you doing anything differently when shaping?
My preference remains Commercially Yeasted baguettes, but SD is a nice diversion after so many bakes.
Elongated Alveoli -
Now that you mention it... I did do a sideways letter fold and then a rollup for the pre-shape on that dough. The dough was slack, so the tighter pre-shaping. I think that caused me to spread the dough outwards as the dough was rolled out in the final shaping. Maybe that caused the elongated cells. I like the look of them.
I think its largely due to hydration. Whats your normal hydration benny ?
Geremy, the crumb above was mixed at 68% hydration.
I’ve had the same crumb anywhere from about 66 to 75% hydration. I’ve been surprised how little the hydration has seemed to affect the crumb openness. I’ve found that hydration seems to have a greater effect on extensibility.
Benny, to what do you attribute your elongated cell structure?
I seldom get the elongated cell structure you guys sometimes do. I think Geremy has said that as he is rolling out he sometimes stretches them by pulling on the ends of the baguettes? Geremy correct me if I’m wrong but I recall you saying that. I have never consciously done that when shaping. The cells usually are fairly round in the crumb of my baguettes.
Friends leaving on a road trip tomorrow morning and, when asked, I was requested to bake "one of those really crispy breads" that I passed on to them in recent times. That could mean only one thing.
The bottlenose on one is a mystery, as they all looked similar coming off the couche. In fact all three had almost identical profiles off the couche. (he types as he scratches his head with the free hand. )
20 min autolyse, 10% bassinage w/salt, 5 min rest, 20 French Folds, 5 min rest, 20 FFs, Letter Folds at 20, 40, 60 min, retard, divide & shape after "a few" hours, retard, bake 480dF. Steam 13 min, bake another 13 min, 3 min vent.
340g x 3 long batards.
Nice crumb! Sweet blisters!
What flour and what hydration?
Have a safe trip...
taking off. First stop Biloxi, then Dallas to see their son.
KA AP 75% hydration
Alan, did you develop the gluten up front (slap and folds, ect)? The crust and ears looks so strong. I am mentally comparing Don’s and mine Bouabsa bakes. Our crust was very thin, we had broken straps, and the ears were not very prominent.
The CBs allow us to compare many similar bakes from different bakers. The variances produced are eye opening.
Teach me, master.
All the instructions are in there:
20 min autolyse, 10% bassinage w/salt, 5 min rest, 20 French Folds, 5 min rest, 20 FFs, Letter Folds at 20, 40, 60 min, retard, divide & shape after "a few" hours, retard, bake 480dF. Steam 13 min, bake another 13 min, 3 min vent.
Sticking with the many fewer FFs. The LFs are way more gentle than in the past. 30 min. rest between pre-shape and shape. Removed from retard and directly onto oven peel. Also ensuring that I get minimal hydration on initial F&W before autolyse starts. Just enough to get the flour wet. The true "shaggy mass".
I checked for a thin crust and it seemed to have it, so I turned off the light and took this picture...
Not as thin as Don's but in the general ballpark.
That would make a great nightlight Alan. The ears you achieve are definitely the best of the CB. The crumb is also awesome.
Your baguettes are so unique and very different from Don and I (using the same formula). I wonder if our ovens (including Benny & Doc’s) don’t play a great role in our outcomes.
its own characteristics. When we moved in here, the apartment had a Westinghouse single box oven. A few years after I began baking we swapped it out for a GE double oven - small box on top, "bread" oven below.
It's been a few years now, but I recall very minor growing pains in moving from one to the other. I suppose altitude could affect a bake in the same oven, a baker in Denver with my oven might get different results. And Dan, with your gas oven, the work is unfortunately cut out for you to maintain the appropriate steam environment.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
The pdf is text searchable and is current up until approximately October 1, 2020. Also the Table of Contents contain links to particular bakes.
Hopefully this will help to condense the data into something that is more digestible and informative.
Thanks to Alan to putting this together. I can only imagine the time and patience this must have required.
Well, made with Doves farm pasta flour (https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/products/organic-pasta-flour-x-1kg), which, according to Abe, is 50% durum flour, although on the packaging it doesn't say the ratio. So semolina baguettes!
Formula and process are here, based on alfanso's semolina baguette recipe: https://fgbc.dk/tkk
Shaping was slightly less uniform than the first time, but I'm OK with it. Just need more practice.
Baked same as previously.
Result is ridiculously crisp crust (I also switched on the convection for the last few minutes to get the dark colour), andsoft, not particularly open crumb. Taste is great!
Guess which one was baked separately (wanted to test on one and see if everything is going OK). Also, I tried scoring the second two almost vertically, and actually they sort of have ears on both sides, and even more prominent on the "wrong" side! Not sure how visible that is in the pictures.
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Directly baked on steel, so the bottom is a little dark and hard, but not burned!
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They look good Ilya, the crust looks thin and has great colour. Shaping is fine as are the ears.
Thanks Benny, I'm not particularly displeased with either, but shaping could be better, and ears just look quite different from the previous ones, but not in a bad way. I feel like I should score with more shorter cuts though, these cuts look a little loo tong.
I wonder how to make the crumb more uniform and a little more open. From reading the comments, there seem to be two directions of though: actually to be firmer during shaping, but also not create quite as much tension, to allow for more expansion. Does that sound right to you?
You could try scoring with four scores rather than three next time and see what you prefer. You certainly get more practice with four vs three.
I can tell you what I do, which may or may not be what others have found successful for them. I am not that gentle with shaping, as in my videos I do pat down the dough prior to final shaping. I think this redistributes the gases in the dough. I do think pretty good tension circumferentially is important to good oven spring and ears etc.
How much did you allow the dough to rise during bulk fermentation and did you do a further proofing after final shaping?
Thanks!
I am not sure how much rise I got - I tried the aliquot jar previously a couple of times and it just didn't work for me, didn't show any discernible rise when I could see the dough was ready! Perhaps the jar I was using was too small, maybe then the friction on the edges is too high to let the dough rise... I was basically using the smallest tall jar I had to minimize amount of dough going in there.
And with just ~1kg dough in a big bowl I was using I really couldn't tell how much rise I had. There was some, but not much. The dough didn't feel puffy, and there were very few bubbles I could see. It was 3 hours at ~25°C, which is on the short side for what I typically do. After shaping I let it proof for 30 min at room temperature and then put in the fridge for the night.
this is a superb start. Excellent whether new or old acquired skills! Seriously curious how you got so far so fast. What is your baking background?
One of the most challenging aspects of baguettes is the formation of ears that lift off the grigne, rather than just spread out during oven spring. These are really well defined and even seasoned baguette bakers would be envious. Don't take my word for it, have a gander at baguettes on a google search. I agree with Benny - if these are about 36-38 cm long, your baguettes will prosper from a 4th score, and quite likely open a little more on oven spring.
I'm a big fan of the dark bake, so these appeal to my aesthetically as well. It seems that it frequently comes down to the camera and lighting, but the crumb is lacking some of the classic yellow coloration of semolina breads.
I assume that you're displaying the dark baked bottom for a different purpose - the color from contact with the baking steel, but you have sealed the seam quite well, barely a trace of its existence in the photo.
Awarding you the recent malaprop of braguettes for these beauties.
Thank you so much, you are too kind, there is still a lot of work to do, although I won't lie - I am quite pleased with these results.
Not much baking background. Just one of those who picked up sourdough quarantine baking around 6 months ago (but have been consistently baking at least twice a week since then). Never baked bread before that, only occasional scones or cakes, and a couple of times yeasted sweet pies or rolls following my grandma's recipe :) I did try baguettes a few times, but every time they would consistently fail (e.g. see the other thread I started just before joining the CB).
Yeah these are a little shorter than that, around 32-34 cm (although I was aiming for nearer to 40 cm, the length of my steel) but next time I'll try 4 scores (what about even 5 short ones? how would this affect the result? maybe I'll try different number of scores for comparison!).
Re colour: I don't know exactly how much semolina is in the flour, unfortunately. Abe thought it was 50%, but the packaging doesn't say. I just assumed it was somewhere in that range (it's the second ingredient, so can't be more than 50%, but hopefully not much lower). There is definitely a light yellow hint to the colour, but not strikingly.
Thank you for the award, not sure I deserve it already with these!
Interesting, I just noticed a minor issue - the baguettes are a little bent, with tips pointing slightly upwards. Is that something to do with the heat from the steel, actually?
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That’s pretty normal in my experience Ilya.
Ah interesting, thanks Benny! I wonder what causes it. I have a feeling it must be due to high heat from the steel, not sure why though... Need to think about it (or google).
Ilya, I'm not a member of the baguette-brigade, but the amateur-engineer in me thinks you could benefit by insulating/shading the baking steel from the radiant heat of the oven's lower heating element. Radiant heat from electric oven elements gets to 900 F, maybe more. And the steel conducts it quickly. Benny has one solution. But if you have an unused rack under the rack that holds the steel, even a cookie sheet could serve to block/shade the radiant heat.
If there is a small steam pan in the rack under the steel's rack, just add a cookie sheet under the steam pan, or put in a cookie sheet when you take out the steam pan.
Radiant heat is like how your car overheats in the sun, versus being in the shade.
Thank you for the suggestions!
That is exactly why I have been paying attention to (an posting pictures of) the bottoms. It seems in my setup the bottom doesn't get scorched quite as much as others have experiences when using steel. I don't know why, but perhaps because in my oven the heating element is not directly exposed? Also actually when I put in the steaming setup it pretty much would block the radiant heat: I use two trays (one for a blast of steam, and one for continuous steaming) that quite neatly fit on the bottom of the oven. So at least during the first part of the bake that shouldn't be an issue (although the steel is preheated without them). Also I suppose the steam cools down the steel a bit too.
I prefer to use my spare big cooking sheet on top, to reduce the effective volume I need to keep hot, and steam (since in commercial ovens the height is much smaller, I think it makes sense).
"I prefer to use my spare big cooking sheet on top, to reduce the effective volume I need to keep hot, and steam (since in commercial ovens the height is much smaller, I think it makes sense)."
I don't follow your logic here, or I'm not picturing it correctly in my mind. Unless the cooking sheet fits flush against the walls of the oven, then it is not actually reducing the volume, as hot air and steam will circulate around it.
If it does fit flush against the walls, it will interfere with the temperature sensors, and with natural air-flow, and you could get dangerously high temp hot-spots.
(There is a benefit to a cookie sheet above the bread: and that is to shade the bread if the oven intermittently and automatically turns on the top heating element to maintain oven temp.)
The oven designers place the location of the temp sensors with natural air flow in mind. If we block the expected minimum air flow, there will be hot spots.
Without the convection fan, objects need to be clear of the walls, by about 3 to 4 cm. With the fan, the clearance can be a bit smaller, I would suppose.
I've only been on TFL for a year, but your's is the first case I've read about anyone trying to reduce the inner volume of the oven.
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On the other point, pre-heating the steel without anything shading it from the radiant heat of the lower element means it is in the neighborhood of 700 F and up when you load the dough.
Baking Steels were originally intended for pizzas where you want a 700-900 F heat, and quick transfer of heat. Steels need to be "attenuated" a bit for bread, They really do behave (transfer heat) differently from stone.
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The bottom line is whatever works in your set-up. You are the boss of your kitchen.
Congratulations on getting such excellent baguettes so soon!
And bon appétit!
I doubt that the tray does too much, really, to be honest. It is a full-size one, as big as one can fit in the oven, so I was hoping it would at least partially block the air exchange with the top section of the oven without the convection fan on. There is some space around it of course.
I don't know, maybe someone else will comment on whether it's something others have tried, and whether it actually does anything.
Thank you for the engineering insight and comments!
You guys seemed to be making the Bouabsa baguettes lately and I realized that I had only made this formula once. I remember them to taste fabulous, however, when I made them before I used a 50:50 blend of bread and all purpose flour, which retrospectively both had 13.3% protein. So I thought I’d try again but this time using my Quebecois 10% protein flour. I did these at 70% hydration and the dough was once again very very extensible and easy to stretch out to 16”. I’m more comfortable with seeding baguettes now although with such extensible dough one still has to be careful not to overstretch the baguettes out.
Uncertain why, but I didn’t get great ears this time, but good enough.
I made a video showing the “endgame” transferring the baguettes off the couche, scoring and getting them from the peel into the oven, in case there are any newbies here interested as I realized it is helpful when new to this.
Not my favourite crumb of all my baguettes, I still cannot figure out why sometimes I get this line of dense crumb in the middle of the baguette. It must be related to my shaping but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to avoid it.