This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Doc your shaping looks great, I’m amazed that you achieved that nice even cylindrical shaping with so little manipulation in shaping and essentially very little pre-shaping.
Very interesting that you baked them two different ways and the resulting differences in the final baguettes. I didn’t think that you could maintain enough steam in the oven if you had the convection setting on, is that not correct?
The oven is German and sealed so once there is steam in the oven it does not leave until a valve or the door gets opened. And once the steam generator is up to temperature it makes lots of steam (15KW). The convection fan is a~15" diameter 1/6 HP squirrel cage blower with four modes: high speed, low speed, and intermittent with either speed. Box humidity and temperature are independent variables except that there is not enough power to run both the box heaters and the boiler at full power simultaneously so I have come up with some programming tricks to do what I want.
For your shaping, I was where you are a few weeks ago. Cutting off a narrow rectangle made for a loaf that was too long without folding it over. The best solution I found (before I abandon that approach) was to cut off a strip and fold it in half lengthwise, then fold it in half the short way and let it rest for a while. Then tighten it up and roll it out.
Eventually I decided that cutting the dough into quarters and pre-shaping like a batard yielded a better final shape. But it depends on the hydration and how far you push the BF. The long cold BF was not doing much for me so I switched to a long (but less long) warm BF then a retard to improve handling qualities then pre-shape cold and then final shape while still quite cool. But the cold dough was fighting me and did not want to stretch even with 0.5% NY. Then I decided to try doing pre-shape and shape while warm and then proof and then retard to make it easier to transfer to the oven. That is where I am now. But I have a big set of experiments to run to make sure I am close to optimized before my new mixer arrives and I begin to transition.
I think there is a way to thread the needle and do BF at a lower temperature, then pre-shape and shape at mid 60°s but the process time will be longer which doesn't fit my schedule well. So I may need to completely rework the timeline but not before I get the new Famag.
The oven cycle may benefit from some further optimization as well, but that is something that I could do by running four different cycles on a single batch of dough. Maybe start at 350°F/(low speed - intermittent fan) and a lot of steam for time T1 (a few minutes) and after the slash begins to rip, turn up the temperature to 500°F and crank up the fan to high for an additional time T2, then vent the steam and finish browning.
Doc your crumb advancements have been remarkable as of late. I have actually browsed images through all 4 pages of the CB, 1195 replies at this time. The improvements by participating bakers have been nothing short of phenomenal! Maybe once you are satisfied with your crumb goal, you can try baking them in your home oven or remove the bells and whistles from your Rational. If the same open crumb is achievable, it would be great to have you document the process. Your Rational oven is way out of our baking capabilities so our results may be quite different from yours.
It seems that as we refine our baguette goals that 2, maybe 3 goals surface.
Flavor seems easily achievable by choosing SD and/or CY. And it seems that flour is of outmost importance. It appears the flavor is more easily attained than the top 3 points.
I am thinking about trying it in my other oven once I get the design optimized for a new steam generator. I need to test it as it would be used. At the moment I am looking for cheap metal trays of usable size and shape. I think I have a scaleable mechanism that will put a fixed amount of water onto your lava rock a delayed time after you shut the oven door. It is another one of those round tuits.
Doc, be sure to notify me when you figure out the delayed water for the Lava Rocks. A big problem with the Lava Rocks is losing huge amounts of steam to the atmosphere when pouring water in.
Even on the bottom baguette, the clean scoring is evident. My personal leanings are toward a darker bake, but one can't quibble with what these look like.
alan
I too like a darker bake, but have not yet figured out the right approach to keep the bottom from burning (using12x 20" Teflon-coated perforated aluminum sheets). Have tried putting a piece of foil under the dough but that is too much and it sticks to the crust even if lightly oiled. Have not tried a polished aluminum perforated 1/2-sheet or a jellyroll pan with quarry tile lining. There is a way to control the timing of the heat, I just have not figured it out yet.
On the other hand it is pretty good as it is, so my motivation is weak.
I virtually never burn the bottoms. But I max out between 460-480, as experience has taught me to steer clear of kendalm's 550 and even Dan's 500. I have a convection feature in my oven, and I've yet to figure out how to use it. But, hey, it's only been about 4 years now.
Since the first half of the bake is on parchment, removed when I release the steam, I'm certain that it acts as an insulator, which likely helps avoid that burned underside.
I find the whole venture pretty darned exciting, with a few folks like you and Michael Wilson taking the studious scientific approach, Dan taking the "OCD" perfectionist approach, Benny bringing his stethoscope to the game, and MT turning out superior quality baguettes like clockwork. And then on the low end, there's me, who pays close attention and work a step or three above the seat-of-the-pants approach. But I am super anal about scaling of ingredients and paying attention to detail.
And when I began baking at home sometime in mid 2014, I decided to concentrate on baguettes, for two reasons. I love the crust to crumb ratio, and I wanted the challenge. And now you folks are infected as well!
likewise mine never burn at 550. but to fair thr oven temp is probably 500 or a tad under by the time the loaves go in. i also throttle down ealy (while going through the max dynamic pressure <- space shuttle reference). im just looking for pop and also tend to underproof by a tad. so yeah, stones dont burn bread like a metal sheet does ;)
You’ll recall I was having problems early on with burnt bottom crusts, even at 480ºF. Then Doc suggested adding aluminum foil to my setup. So now with crumpled aluminum foil in the broiling rack and the baking steel on top of that, the bottom crusts never burn even at 500ºF and the broiling rack set up on the lowest oven rack. I am a bit surprised at how well those sheets of crumpled aluminum foil work to further shield the bottom crusts. Now I just keep the whole broiling rack set up in the oven and when I bake my batards, the dutch oven goes on top of the broiling rack as well and again the bottom crusts get a good shade of brown without burning.
I just looked up the thermal diffusivities for aluminum and granite/brick
So your granite slab may hold a lot of heat but it doesn't give it up quickly, while the aluminum holds less but absorbs it quickly and gives it up quickly too - like from one side through to the other.
So I should be looking for my stack of 1/4" quarry tiles
Further reduced bulk fermentation to 2:00 with a dough temperature starting at 84.8°F and finishing at 81°F. Slightly shorter mix time today (3:30 vs 4:00 yesterday) and I may have paid a price for that slight undermixing, though it had pulled itself off the sides and bottom of the bowl before I quit. Dough was on the sticky side of workable but with minimal flour I was able to divide and preshape, and after a 20 min rest (which it probably didn't need) I was able to tighten it up and roll out a decent baguette. A 2:00 room temperature final proof and a 2:00 retard for timing made them ready to bake when I was ready. Two oven cycles today, one was the baseline time and temperature but with the pan containing the baguettes sitting on a layer of 3/8" quarry tile that was sitting on an oven rack (I could not find my 1/4" stack of 6"x6" quarry tile so these were 3/8" x 4" x 8" on a 13" x 21" rack. The fan speed for the first batch was low and high for the second batch. The result was a lighter bottom crust for both batches (but too light to get full flavor out of the final bread). So the current baseline is still the best option (until I find something better). The high fan speed was not invoked until after the slashes had started to open (successful strategy) but the ears were not great for either batch so I may decrease the hydration a couple of percent and see what that does. The crumb is not as uniform as it was yesterday and I suspect that is due to insufficient mixing and probably more difficult handling at final shaping. The dough is quite soft when dividing so that would benefit from a little cooler dough temperature which would mean a longer bulk fermentation.
I pulled a 32g sample after completing the mix and weighed it at multiple points during the last 1:30 of BF. It lost 100mg of CO2 which is about 0.44% of the weight of the flour (0.26% of dough weight) which should be accurate enough to use as a monitor for a slower/lower temperature bulk ferment. If this technique is successful it will offer a definitive way to achieve the same bulk fermentation end point without using time and texture to decide when it is done. The fermentation seems to be quite rapid and for a 28g sample to lose 100mg in 90 min the resolution is about 1% which seems incredibly precise to me. And the sample size could be as large as 110g so the accuracy might be increased by a factor of 4 if that turns out to be important.
Next batch will be a little lower hydration and a slightly different oven cycle.
This CB has come a long way, and all ideas put in practice could actually be the most complete compendium on baguette baking available online. I have made a simple post in the beginning, and then stepped back and enjoyed the discussions. So today I wanted to share some pictures of the baking I just finished using yeast water levain. The recipe is the same as described in the beginning of this CB (except that I used equal amounts of WW and rye), but instead of sourdough levain I used yeast water made of fresh crushed grapes. Overall, it was a pretty good bake with nice crumb, crisp crust and mild taste that traces back to grapes. Apparently I have not made progress on shaping these hybrid crossing between batards and baguettes.
I don't see a single thing wrong with them. And you've just introduced a brand new aspect to the conversation by using YW. Yeah, the conversations around here have been quite involved, a lot of valuable navel-gazing. And I see you agreeing that this is potentially the world's finest in depth baguette learning adventure in the history of mankind, if not the universe since before man existed.
Although Mr. Hamelman had no Idea when he published this formula as a pan au levain boule/batard, it does seem to be just about an ideal combination for taking the simple but elegant baguette de tradition to another level entirely.
Thanks for keeping the flame lit!
Peter, you have achieved excellent ears on those baguettes, the shaping is quite even, I’m impressed. However, much more impressive is the open crumb and the fact that you’ve made the first yeast water baguettes that I’ve seen. The crumb really is great.
Do you fully develop the gluten or not? I ask because I’m wondering if fully developed gluten (intense machine mixing, or many slap & folds, etc) might strengthen the gluten too the point where even and open cell structure is more difficult to attain.
Thanks Alfonso and Benny, I have seen great in-depth analysis in the comments. I agree with Alfonso 100% that this is the most valuable collection of know-how on the matter in the universe. It is also the first time I use YW for baguettes. I am very surprised with the crumb, needless to say it is the best I ever achieved.
Dan, I have not developed gluten at all. Autolysed for one hour, mixed levain, and waited another 20 min to add salt. Did some quick kneading to make sure salt was integrated. After that I applied two sets of stretch and fold in 40 min intervals, and that was it. I had to put the dough in the fridge for two hours during bulk fermentation because I had to do something outside. I pre-shaped and bench rested for 20 minutes, de-gassed quite a bit during final shaping, but still got a nice crumb.
Nice looking loaves. Introducing a new leavening idea to this CB is like a breath of fresh air. How was the taste? How was the crust? The crumb looks great.
Thanks MT for the comments. The taste was quite mild without sourness due to the YW. There was a subtle sweetness note to the crumb which I attribute to the fresh grapes used to make the YW. I think the crust was thinner than my first trial using sourdough, but it was at the same time quite crispy and crackling.
Good morning, friends.
A little twist on Silvia's towel. The only down side, I can only bake two baguettes at a time due to the height. If this actually works, I will cut the lip off one of the pans so it can slip inside of the bottom pan. Smile. #Necessityisthemotherofinvention
Very Ingenious, Will!
That is a great idea. You may need to elevate the baguette apparatus to keep from having moisture from the towel.
Do you have any of those black paper clips for securing the top and bottom?
I hope there is enough resident heat to make steam and at the same time not rob the heat from the dough. Look forward to seeing your results...
As it happens the baguette pan is hits the slopped ends of the pan and is supporter about an inch off the bottom. Yes I have the clips your talking about. I am curious to see the results also. The one pan two baguette bake will be directly of the superheated pizza steel I am thinking I will pre-heat the bottom pan, with the towel then drop the baguette pan in, add 8 oz. boiling water cover and bake
In another thread, Ciabatta had purchased a large steaming tray, the type restaurants use, that he was going to use to trap steam over 3-4 loaves baking on a baking stone. The steaming tray like your aluminum trays was shiny. He ran into problems with the loaves being unable to brown. In the end it was discovered that the shiny tray was too reflective and in fact the temperature inside the upside down tray enclosing the baking dough didn’t reach a high enough temperature. Ciabatta (James) purchase a temperature probe and was able to measure that the outside temperature of the oven was significantly higher than that inside the tray.
I hope your set up doesn’t run into the same issues that James ran into. Thread here - Whole Oven Cloche
I thought about this, and determined that it is going to be very difficult to reconcile, both a very high heat at the beginning of the bake, and a fully enclosed repository, to trap steam. What I have decided is two fold.
1. look to baguette skin tension, shaping and slashing as the main stumbling block
2. Use a simpler method to help trap some extra steam directly on the baguettes.
My solution or the steaming apparatus is simple indeed. I will use only one pre-heated over turned tray a top the baguette pan. The pan will sit directly on a 16" round pizza steel. This will leave the underside some what open. On the rack directly below will be the steam source. At this point I am thinking #1 is the main issue. If I can correct/ improve that area, my baguettes will improve too. Once I can honestly say I am doing the best I can with the challenges in #1, then and only then will I look elsewhere. (Now that I have the pan, I will give one pan a whirl)
It is definitely worth a try to see if it works, maybe because your aluminum trays are thinner than what James used the heat will still penetrate your set up. I just wanted to bring it to your attention since I saw the trouble he had with it in case it was applicable to you, I didn’t mean to discourage your ingenuity.
From home baking ace Steve B. at breadcetera.com . His method for steaming. Basically a hotel pan with a hole drilled into it. He uses a small hand help steamer's nozzle inserted into the hole.
If the seal is good you may not even need the towel. Just a little water in the bottom might do it. When do we find out how it worked?
The flour is at the tail end of a two hour Autolyse, the sour biga is at the ready (8hr second build ferment)
I am smack in the middle of a fairly large out door project. Pouring 20 yards of concrete and building a 12x24’ covered work area.
I’ll be back...
when I do it will be with a keen focus on Benny’s crumb. My first idea is to do as close to no-knead as possible. Maybe it is the less developed gluten that is allowing the cell expansion.
Both you and Benny are not developing the gluten up front. And both of you are producing excellent crumb. I am sitting at my computer preparing a new spreadsheet as I write this. Next baguette bake will have the gluten developed along the lines of you and Benny.
If you decide to crawl down this bunny hole in search of the perfect baguette, we welcome you with open arms. It looks like this CB has a life of it's own.
I have been working towards a more tidy scoring pattern that doesn't tear apart the strip of crust that holds the grigne in the elliptical shape. I don't know what it's called but it is like the open crumb is being shackled by this thin strip of crust. That is my dilemma. I prefer the open crumb but still want the neat appearance of the slashes not bursting the baton open. I keep meaning to do one long score down the length to see what happens to the crumb. My plan was to use shorter cuts in a 19 inch stick I got 7 slashes but some bursting still occurred. Perhaps it's a shaping issue or they are under proofed.
This weekend I used the divine french flour again and the Bouabsa recipe with similar results. The bulk was left on the counter too long by mistake and the dough needed a couple more folds in the fridge to degas it and get it chilled. The shaping went well and the super duper peel is working well and the edge helps to straighten them out on the stone. I an also trying to achieve the graceful taper. Which is a challenge on another level that my left hand doesn't get.
I pushed the hydration to 74% which is about the limit for me with this flour. The flavor of this flour is incredible even the burnt ends have a special taste and the crust is like no other.
Excellent crumb and beautiful crust color. Your shaping has been quite consistent throughout bakes.
These are up to your usual high standards for baguettes but just in long form Don. Crumb is also nice and open, great job at the longer baguette.
I’ve done some good, done some ugly, but this one was definitely bad :-(
I wanted to try Benny’s baguettes, so Able’s Baguette au Levain was the choice. A new french flour (T80) was used. Benny’s method was followed closely. But T80 at that hydration was a mess. Shaping was terrible. The baguette crumb looked bad and tasted worse. I have grown extremely fond of a thin crust and soft chew. SD doesn’t give me that.
Either the dough will require more gluten development or the hydration will need to be lowered. It was confirmed that I am not a fan of sourdough baguettes, even at small amounts of pre-fermented flour. Unless I learn something new, baguettes that suit me utilize commercial yeast with no hint of SD.
To the connoisseur, the baguettes are not eatable. But the birds will love them.
Benny has mastered that formula, but the french flour didn’t work out for me. So back to Bouabsa or Louis L’mour’s Baguette au Tradition Francaise.
I also learned that the T80 is not a good choice for levain. After it had fully matured the levain was soupy and the gluten was broken down. Note to self, “use American flour for starters and levains”.
Update - after giving this some thought, the levain may have over-fermented since the T80 contains a large amount of bran. I don’t think that was the case, though. From what I’ve learned thus far, it seems that french flour is not the best choice for long fermentation and levains or starters that mix high ratios like 1:5:5. The ~12 hr fermentation breaks down the gluten.
I hope they like it if they can jackhammer through that crust. Maybe a herron or a woodpecker could open it up for the smaller birds to enjoy. The deer around here have come to expect my failures and stale heels. That dough might have made a nice boule or batard. Which reminds me how did the big pour of concrete go? I am imagining a bake shop with a wood fired oven and a large store room for hoarded french flour and razor blades. I was thinking of using Evian bottled water to take the Moulin Auguste to the next level.
I have been messing around with local Italian spring water these last two bakes. Here are the anecdotal results. The first bake was 100% aqua di Fiuggi. The second bake, when I opened the bottle, to my dismay, I realized I picked up the sparkling variety by mistake. I used about a 1/3 of the final dough water from the first uncarbonated bottle and the rest NYC tap water. I noticed no difference in the end result.
Now here is a question. If one was to use naturally carbonated water in a dough , would artificially infusing co2 improve the dough? Is this a thing? Alternatively would it kill the dough or possibly have no effect at all? Did I just invent a radical new technique?
Smile...
Infusing Co2 using carbonated water
Don, you made a statement early on in this CB that made me think. Basically, “sourdough makes a thicker crusted, tougher chewing crumb”. After more than 20 consecutive baguettes bakes during this CB, it is crystal clear how true that statement is. I love SD flavor. If baguettes turned out with the same thin crust and chew using SD, it could well be my preference. For baguettes, commercial yeast is my resounding choice. But for 99% of my other breads, its long fermented sourdough all the way.
The T80 levain turned to soup at maturity. The best and worst characteristic of french flour is that it is very delicate. But nothing I know of produces a baguette of comparable quality. It has spoiled me for anything else when it comes to baguettes.
Today’s forecast is sunny for today, so cement pour first things this morning...
Hey Dan, what do you think contributed to the result? You used T80 flour, do you think this led to the baguettes having more of a whole grain flavour and thus more sourdough like flavour which I agree I wouldn’t like either. The best results for flavour with Abel’s formula have been when using fully white flour, the set I made recently with flour erroneously label led T55 but which had a lot of bran in it definitely weren’t my favourite.
I’m disappointed for you, I was hoping that you’d like Abel’s formula as I have. For me, it has just a bit more complexity without having a strong sourdough flavour.
Yep, the T80 is a radically different flour from T65. There is no comparison between the 2. Of course the Le Moulin d'Auguste brand is what I’ve used for comparison. I assume that not all T65 and T80 french flour is the same.
I keep trying SD baguettes and after tasting the CY only baguettes they all disappoint. Taste are highly subjective, but that’s my preference.
Because I like SD so much, I keep going back to try another version.
Dan I can’t help but thinking that it was the flour you chose to use with this formula. I love sourdough but don’t love sourdough flavour in my baguettes and I get none of that really with this, only the greater complexity of sourdough. But as you say, everyone has their own tastes so you have to do what makes you happy.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65286/spiral-baguette
Interview and work of Mahmoud M'seddi, the young baker who won the competition in 2018.
His technique is unlike what we generally think of. Not a poolish dough. A 3 hour autolyse and a what seems like a long 1st speed mix with bassinage before switching to 2nd. Then rests the dough in the mixer for 1 hour, before pulling it out of the mixing bowl. An immediate S&F in the tub, and maybe another, and it is eventually placed into retard until the following day. Baked at 515dF for 19 minutes. No formula given.
Is this pre Raymond Calvel , or post Raymond Calvel? Boy oh boy, you give this "kid" a little information he really runs with it! LOL. I kill me! Okay no more posting today I am a bit tipsy! (Vacation)
That's my method! (Almost) Stolen from the Generations of Sothern Italian bakers for sure! Shame on the French! Tisk, tisk!
It is interesting that he describes the ideal crust as being thick, I wouldn’t want a thick crust on my baguette. The crust he shows doesn’t look thick though.
I wonder what the mechanism is that spits out perfectly round slender batons. Something like a cigarette rolling apparatus? The robots are going to replace us and leave us nothing to do but eat what they make. I do like his idea of what the crumb should look like.
It will be interesting to try the “light test”.
I bet he mis-spoke about the “thick crust”. Thin and crispy seems a better descriptor.
Yeah you're probably right, he likely misspoke.
The Maltese summer time, breakfast, lunch, brunch or dinner. Rats, I ran out of anchovies!
The crumb on your newest baguettes is looking much more open Will, great job.
I agree with Danny, regarding chewy sourdough crust for baguettes, I also prefer a crisp commercial yeast crust. I learned a lot with these couple of durum bakes. I think I will move to the less aggressive, short or the improved mixing method for all my breads.
The short mix works for a lot of breads. I wouldn't recommend it for the Approachable pan loaves though. Sandwich breads need more kneading. How did the steam pan work?
It takes some time to get my 100% whole wheat approachable loaf to come together. I think a kinder, gentler speed #1 will work for a lot of applications, not all. It seemed to work pretty well, I got some nice oven spring. At first I did not think the baguettes would brown. Then they started to caramelize.
Especially for a full durum bread, the crumb is quite open. Really nice going! But where are the Kalamatas?
Mom always had some on hand. I will have to pick some up. Also the wrinkly Greek type.
working with the durum, and being concerned about the fragile gluten, has a lot to do with the crumb, I think?
I think these are the 13th set of baguettes and I had high hopes for them. I continue to use Abel’s formula and haven’t significantly changed any of my methods. Because the dough seemed fairly extensible last time (using the same 10% protein AP flour) I decided to pre-shape as a boule. After 15 mins of rest I then shaped trying to get them to 15-16” in length, which I almost achieved, although they contracted a bit in the couche. They rested in the couche on the counter for 20 mins. Because the kitchen seemed much hotter than usual the dough may have proofed more than usual during its bench time. I put them in the fridge for 5 mins before scoring, given the ambient temperature, I should have shortened the bench rest and extended the fridge time. The dough was very delicate to score and I did experience some difficulty with scoring. I brushed water on the baguettes liberally prior to baking which helped with blisters and shine.
Not much in the way of ears to speak of. A couple of the ends of the baguettes are somewhat flat, this may be because my my fingers trying to hold the dough as I started to score, I’m unsure. I was hoping to improve, not sure that these are an improvement. They baked up darker than I intended. I had increased the oven temperature to 515ºF from my usual 500ºF thinking that this might help the oven spring since they were a bit over proofed so this contributed to the darker bake.
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Fortunately the crumb is good, happy with that. I cannot complain at all about the soft texture to the crumb and the crisp thin crust. The flavour from this flour is actually quite good, a clean wheat flavour with a background complexity from the levain but without any sour notes whatsoever. I may never actually have good ears or grigne on my baguettes, I suppose that isn’t the end of the world, but they are a nice to have. I still have the outward appearance to work on for sure.
Are you sure that you aren't shaping natural sponges as baguettes and using them in your photos? Outstanding!
It’s what’s inside that counts right? No not using any sea cucumbers or sponges as stunt models for baguettes in my photos. Good crumb, so so exteriors. I wonder if I should dial back the bulk a bit and see if I can get better oven spring and better ears, perhaps I’m pushing bulk a bit too far. I think next bake I’ll go back to 30% rise on the aliquot jar but continue with the bench rest at room temp en couche and include a longer rest in the fridge prior to scoring.
I agree that the outward appearance would improve with less time in bulk. Are you still retarding for 24 hours because of the schedule you are on? Perhaps you could reduce the IDY to minuscule or the levin by 1/2. I would say you could retard it at the first sign of any activity. It should be possible to still get something like your signature open crumb with a rounder profile. Maybe #14 is a luckier number.
Thanks for the feedback Don. The profile has been flatter and the grigne/ears even less than before since I tried pushing bulk to a 35-40% rise. For the next bake I will dial that back down and see where that gets me. I was getting a similar crumb on some of my previous bakes while also having a rounder profile and something more acceptably like ears/grigne. If that doesn’t do it then I’ll reassess the yeast/levain, but thanks for that suggestion I’ll keep it in my back pocket.
I only do the 24 hour cold retard for convenience, there is no noticeable growth in the fridge, I have it at 2ºC so there shouldn’t be any yeast activity.
@Benny - I have been slowly increasing my pre-bake retard temperature, currently up to 43°F and still see not volumetric increase over 8 hrs. But the solubility of CO2 at that temperature is so high that almost any CO2 production would go directly into solution and not contribute to internal pressure that would show up as a volume increase. I will (when the occasion presents) continue to take it up a little at a time and see where things change.
Benny, if you were nominated and we took a vote, bets are you’d garner the coveted title of “Crumb Master”, in the baguette category. You and Maurizio are neck and neck.
Absolutely, fantastic...
Posted under my blogs.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65305/abels-baguette-rústica-con-semillas-de-girasol
Great looking long board baguettes Alan, as I said in your blog your new improved signature, now with more to love. I do wonder if I’m futzing with the shaping a bit too much after watching Abel shape and score. I’m thinking I really need to dial back on the bulk a bit and let the oven spring do the work a bit more than I am currently doing. Although I’m getting good crumb, the profile of my baguettes in the last two posts have been a bit flat so I suspect I’m going a bit too far with bulk.
I also like what the little bit of levadura seca did for crumb on your baggies. Sunflower and flax seeds are my go to add ins when I want something healthy and tasty in my bread. Hammelmans Sourdough Seed Bread would probably make a nice baton.
and then it is a melange of water and differing seeds and grains. In this case it was just a slimy mess. I understand that the flax seeds themselves have too hard a shell to digestibly break down easily.
Incorporating what you and the other good folks here on TFL had suggested after my recent pleas for help. No nutritional yeast, this dough just about has to be corralled on rollout without the NY. My prior two attempts were in the shorter version and the resulting long batard was a little too rotund.
Also taking the advise - mostly yours, to cut down on FFs, going from my "traditional 300 down to 200 and now to 125. Time will tell whether the reduction is working out for me the long run.
Just checked out the Hamelman SD Seed formula. I'll put it on my to-do list. First, a fun task for the weekend. A neighbor asked if I'd supply her with some of my "famous" sesame semolina baggies in exchange for her Italian traditional Sunday Supper which they're preparing to have with friends coming over (yikes!). That seems like a pretty fair deal to me! Doing what I like and getting a free meal out of it.
I think the amount of kneading or folding is a big factor in getting the more open crumb combined with hydration. Bread flour and whole grain require more FF's but an AP with IDY only needs the minimum when combined with time in the bulk retard. Benny and I are mixing with the same method at different hydration and getting an open crumb. A minute or two of the Rubaud in the bowl and a couple of coil folds in the bowl and thats it. I know there is a certain joy to slapping and folding and some breads are better for it but batons seem more delicate to me especially when the dough is wetter.
Having dinner out with friends. That's something that hasn't happened in a while for us. Sunday Italian would bring me to the door although virus paranoia is still a thing here. Mangiare
I stumbled upon some good info on French flour vis-a-vis protein while trying to help user Huda. It's the Moul Bie web site that lists all their flours. Unfortunately, you have to make an extra click to find the protein percent in a PDF file.
But, the upside is that you get a recommended formula, if you can read French.
(my French is limited to speaking like Pepe Le Pew.)
As mwilson keeps telling us, T## just means the ash%. The protein is another dimension of specification. T65 could be anywhere from 10% to 13% protein, maybe higher.
Bottom line: you have to ask about protein separately. The text name like "traditional baguette" or "modern baguette" is just marketing nomenclature, not a specification, even if it is unique to just one product.
Here's where the protein % for each Moul Bie flour is:
Go to this page first: https://www.grandsmoulinsdeparis.com/produits/farines.html
There are seven different T65 flours on the above page, including organic ("bio"), and you have to go to page 2 to see the last couple. Then click on the particular flour that you want to look at.
Then Click the link that says: Télécharger la fiche technique de ce produit. I found one T65 that had 12-something % protein, but I did not check all.
This is similar or congruent to the Italian system of 00, 0, and 1. Those indicate ash%, not protein, nor particle size. And you still have to ask separately about protein. __
Actually, the W number and P/L ratio (elasticity) can be just as important as protein %.
I, (we) would love a better look at your prebake baguettes. However, the photo is very tiny.
Well, it tasted great, had a good crumb but I can't seem to get that lovely shiny crunchy crust no matter how much steam I use. My oven has a permanent on fan that I suspect is the culprit. My scoring also seemed to pretty much disappear in the oven. It was fun though, and everyone loved the baguettes - I was the only one who missed the crust being shiny!
Are those your first time at a baguette? Wow if they are, so much better than my first attempt. You may also have created a new type of baguette, but it will need a catchy name if it is going to go viral on the net. Your crumb looks quite good, you should be quite proud.
The oven’s fan staying on is a challenge. I’ve taken to brushing water on my dough after scoring and prior to baking. It really helps the bread have a shinier crust and enhances the blisters, if you like that sort of thing.
I hope you try baguettes again and post your efforts here.Benny
The first was definitely worse in terms of shaping. I watched all the videos in the community bake instructions and tried again. Shaping was actually okay - I just have to finagle them into the oven better - small oven - long baguettes! Not sure about a viral name - Mini gets to choose, it was her idea!
vieux rustique! (The rustic old ones!) What a great bake! I second the water, except I spray mine with a water bottle.
The crumb is superb!
I will just have to be happy with rustic I think. ;-)
CarolAnn, I have the same issue with dull and blisterless crust. I can apply as much steam as I wish and still, very seldom get shiny, blistered crust.
Can’t figure that one out...
Danny
That I am not alone. Oh well, tasted great that's all that matters really.
Sometimes, even I am surprised by my bread making prowess.
Watch the skill and efficiency in movements, of professional Boulanger, William Courderot. A true craftsmen.
The baguette, Flour, water, yeast, and salt, four simple ingredients, many different techniques.
Traditional French Baguettes | Cooking by Heart from Lowe + Helzer on Vimeo.
Love watching such skilled bakers shape baguettes or any bread for that matter. What I’m doing to shape is using many more steps than that he is doing based on videos I had watched at the beginning of all of this. I wonder if I should be simplifying my shaping with fewer steps.
Your right about the steps. Even the top dog at KAF, (Hamelmans protégé) his name eludes me, uses a more compact shaping procedure. Part of my aim for today, is to eliminate the series of short folds, in favor of folding the whole long edge into the center. I devised a procedure last night, today, I will test it. I also concocted an unconventional, low hydration commercial yeast formula. The formula is already in the first stages of testing, (bulk)
Boy oh boy! I am so like a Roman among Greeks here! A Loud, boisterous, braggadocio! However, it is all in fun, with some learning too! Smile.
P.S. Your doing better than fine, with the quality of your baguettes. I would say, if it is not broken , don't fix it!
“P.S. Your doing better than fine, with the quality of your baguettes. I would say, if it is not broken , don't fix it! ”
That would be unlike me, I’m always changing things to see if they might make things better, they often don’t but I learn from these things.
As long as we keep it fun!
This weekends wands were an incremental improvement in shaping and scoring, I used a curved lame to score with and shortened the length of the cuts to try to get a more uniform pattern with less bursting. They are getting better slowly and the shaping is becoming more natural with all the practice lately. Putting more emphasis on the pre-shape by building some tension helps to make the final shape go smoothly. The French flour is so tasty and nice to work with that it is the only flour I want to make them with from now on.
Judging by the burnt ends 18 inches is at the limit of the length possible in my oven. The ends do not taste burnt like they do with American AP they have a surprisingly rich taste.
The crumb was nice and open for going from the fridge to the oven in less than an hour. They photograph best when cut lengthwise to make a sandwich but I prefer to eat them sliced.
The crust shatters when you cut them. Safety glasses recommended ;-)
They even look delicious. Very nice work.
Cheers,
Gavin
It's getting better all the time sung to the tune of "It's getting better all the time". You are so right about the overall shaping, even getting the ends to assume their torpedo tips. Your shaping was really good and consistent before, so this is a next step.
The scoring is still completely you, but something looks just a little off. The off is the way it blooms from oven spring and the ears that are starting to assume their own identity. Different enough from your prior bakes, but still you. You always get a great crumb so there's no surprise there. Admit it - you're no Benny, but then, around here no one else is either ;-) .
The timing for kendalm to have come out from hiding just in time to goose Dan and you into buying the flour is suspicious! You may well be doing direct deposit with L'Epiciere before this is all over.
I seem to get more bursting oven spring than others. The crust does not have the strength to contain the oven spring no matter the flour used. It could be that the higher hydration is the culprit. I don't think it is from too much tension when shaping. The scoring was cleaner this time with no wrinkles or jagged edges.
I would prefer to use American flour if I could find one with half the flavor of the French flour. I wonder what it is about the Moulin D Auguste that makes it so superior? The strain of wheat? The soil? The climate? You need to try some except for the fact that after that nothing else will do.
I have no experience with them, but a lot of folks swear by Central Milling, Giusto's and other Western mills that supply bakeries. Might be worth investigating a few of them. Both price and shipping, if either for these are to be concerns, should be quite a bit lower for you than the August Mill flour.
I had a bag of the Central Milling ABC and it was nice flour to work with but I don't recall the taste being extraordinary. The Guistos pizza flour I can get here and it is pretty great. Maybe I should try that for batons one of these days when my supply of the magic dust is getting low. The Wheat Montana AP I use has a good flavor to it but the crust is nothing like the potato chip crust of the Auguste. No wonder the French are famous for their bread. It's the flour! I think Washington State University is breeding wheat for flavor and baking quality and working with bakers to develop the strain. It would be nice to find something similar grown in these parts.
The shipping rates on grain and flour is not cheap even coming from Utah. Fed Up and UPOS are gouging us on delivery these days. The Postal Service is being bled out by a moron. That's my excuse when I get caught bringing a large amount of white powder into the country.
Actually on the subject of flour, since this thread is so much about flour, is Italian flour a good substitute for French flour? Italian flour is much more available here for some reason than French. I’ve read that the tipo 0 flour is similar to T55/65. Any opinions about the use of Italian flours for baguettes?
If you find one with the right enrichments. Some that are made for pizza have an additive that allows the dough to be stretched out easily. I have access to a couple of 00 pizza flours I may try them out on the next weekend bake and give the magnifique flour a rest. I wish our white flour wasn't so homogenized and produced for enriched dough recipes that do not rely on the flour for flavor.
I’ll be very interested to see how your baguettes turn out using the pizza flour Don. The low protein AP flour seems to be sold out now everywhere I’ve gone to look for it. I still have some, but once out I’ll need a substitute so having not heard of anyone using Italian flour here for baguettes I was curious.
I bought this one here in NZ and really like it but it is rarely available to buy. haven’t tried baguettes but my bake is below
yes it says soft white but it was good for bread.
Leslie
Right at 9% protein, so soft but certainly good enough for you to make some nice looking bread. I lot of people would really like to make bread that looks like that - out of any flour.
Do you find that it requires more mixing to build the strength you need for a loaf like that?
quite disorganised at the start. A friend had tried baking cakes with it (too wet) and struggled so I held back water but added it all in. I just did my normal 200 SLAFs with salt added half way. It really came together and was not hard to shape. I admit I was really surprised. but happy! I really questioned its suitability with 9% protein but my thought is, in this particular instance, it must be the quality of the protein that makes the difference. I ran a mate at the same time with added gluten flour and the crumb was less open (here it is). I still have enough for one more bake (stored in the freezer) so next bake will try and replicate it (that bake was about 6 months ago I think).
thanks Doc.dough - love your baguettes, wish I could make them like that!
Leslie
Wow Leslie, that it remarkable that you were able to bake that hearth loaf using 9% protein flour, it has a beautiful open crumb. If you can bake such a lovely loaf with that low protein flour then it should work quite nicely for baguettes!
I don't know if it holds for wheat, but among garden vegetables, the heirloom varieties are known for better taste.
"Heirloom" ... meaning they have not been hydridized or changed in the past 50-60 years.
Many vegetables have been hybridized (cross bred) to optimize them for corporate farms, in terms of yield, quick maturation, less spoilage, more pest resistant, less blemishes, more consistency, etc. But, the trade-offs have often included less taste.
Heirloom wheat is abundant enough for boutique millers using stone mills and relatively small impact mills. But....
if you want to get white bran-less germ-less flour, (t55, t65) you need a multi-million dollar roller mill plant. and to use that kind of mill, you need large batches due to the fixed set-up time/charges for a given run. and a given farmer's batch of Red Fife or White Sonora may not be big enough to get time on a high tech multi-stream roller mill. Whereas, creating _whole-grain_ flour with an impact mill or a stone mill, it's a straight in and out, one stream, one machine, with a simple cleaning in between batches.