This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
Please share your method of creating steam in your home oven!!!
The main element in my oven is at the top (typical for UK I think). At the bottom of the oven I keep a tray full of ceramic baking beans. After pre-heating them thoroughly I add boiling water and turn the oven off and allow the steam phase to occur.
I also bake on a cast iron "stone" (requisitioned from a barbecue) that gets an extra blast of heat on the gas hobs before loading it and the dough into to the oven.
They have a twisted, glazed, pastry look to them that almost had me drooling. Glad you found the time to put your fine skills on display. Alfanso style from across the pond.
Thanks Don, I'm glad you like. I guess the pasticerria influence is immutable.
Some added info regarding my process. Naturally leavened with lievito madre (LM).
SD Poolish
Final dough
22hrs@13°C
~2hrs @ room temp (24°C)
Fridge 8 hrs @ 5°C
~2hrs room temp to warm up.
(g)
(g)
Flour (Pivetti, 11% protein, W180-220)
50
288
Water (tap - report)
53
190
SD Poolish with LM + Salt (assume 100% hydr.)
---
100
Diastatic malt
---
3
LM – refreshed twice, (50% hydr.)
8
---
LM (storage) - after 24hrs, after lavaggio (~67% hydr.)
---
20
Salt
0.25
6.1
Total
607.1
TW (g)
248
TW %
70.9%
TF (g)
350
PFF (g)
62
PFF %
17.7%
Note: I'm not treating malt as flour. Because of the way my process works some calculations can only be estimates. E.g. during the washing (lavaggio) of the storage mother (LM) dough pieces starting at 50% hydration soak up additional water, which increases the hydration. The SD poolish has some transfer loss and there are moisture losses throughout.
Bulk volume increase ~80% (not quite double). Shaped baguettes were proofed for about 2 hours.
PS. The storage LM added at the final dough stage was in place of what I originally intended to be a portion of dough from the previous day (old dough / pasta di riporto / pâte fermentée).
After Bake #9 I thought I was finished. I feared the neighbors were being over-whelmed with baguettes. Well, they weren't. They all told me to keep them coming. Thank God, I didn't stop at #9 because this latest bake has changed the way I think about baguettes.
The latest group of breads have changed my opinion on baguettes. I was not a fan of the skinny loaves. But low and behold out of the oven popped a loaf of bread that had a crispy crust with a little bite, but the crumb was creamy and soft. When the loaf is squeezed, the outside has a slight resistance, but there is also the promise of a soft interior as the loaf compresses and smoothly regains it's shape. The bite is extraordinary. First the resistant crunch, followed by the pleasant surrender of the creamy crumb. The distinct, but smooth lactic sour is evident in every delectable bite. After baking so very many loaves, I was fortunate to arrive at "Baguette Nirvana".
If you’ll notice, this time the writeup was about texture and flavor. A departure from my other bakes, where oven spring, ears, and coloration was the goal of the day. Without attempting, the bite, flavor and texture turned out to be king. After all is said and done, it is the flavor that always rules.
The bread is so special (IMO) it seemed good to post the spreadsheet encase others wanted to experience what I have. Notice that this baguette utilizes Nutritional Yeast and Fava Bean flour. I can't say for sure that they contributed to the taste and/or texture, but I am convinced that the resulting dough was as extensible as any 68% hydrated dough that I've ever handled, BY FAR!
Note the white colored crumb, even though there is 10% whole grain. That is a direct result of Fava Bean flour, which is an oxidizer. Michael Wilson tells me that the Nutritional Yeast is a reducer and that both can work well together.
I appreciate the help and patience of so many bakers on this forum. Without which my breads would not be nearly as nice.
Danny
Dan, now that is a grand slam! Beautiful shaping, gorgeous scoring. You are perfecting your technique and incorporating some new ideas to enhance the extensibility of your dough, remarkable.
I've been shouting for years now on TFL. That is, if I can do it, pretty much anyone can. Just takes some perseverance and a lot of practice. After your bake here, we should just shut the lights, close down the shop and go home. It isn't going to get any better.
Over these past two weeks we've seen a lot of able troopers come marching through, and I'll venture to guess that just about every one of them who made the effort is now a better home baker than the day before they decided to participate.
What we've seen here is not much short of a Daytona 500 of baking skills upping the ante for each other. And happily for folks like me to observe and perhaps help foster, a whole new appreciation and enjoyment of baking baguettes has come to light for our participants.
There will be a Bake #11, and it is scheduled for Saturday morning. The starter is fermenting now...
I need to make sure this can be duplicated. I’m not kidding, this bread is light years better than an other baguette I’ve baked. To the Nutritional Yeast and Fava Beans go the credit. I will try to replicate this one exactly as the last. Nothing substituted or altered.
This bread is terrible for those wanting loose weight. It keeps calling to me from the kitchen. If it can be duplicated, it will take the highest honors on the side of Hamelman’s Five-Grain and Teresa Greenway’s Sanfrancisco Sourdough.
A big thanks to Lance for sending my the Instagram link.
Nice wands. To earn a spot on your mantle. You would have made a fine captain in the Star Fleet bravely exploring new worlds. Was the taste of the NY baked off? My Bob's Red Mill NY smells like stale beer on the basement floor after a frat house kegger. I am reluctant to try for fear of the French baguette police knocking on my door but on your recommendations captain I may have a go. If you are looking at other tangents I understand that pizza yeast has L-cysteine which will relax the dough. Weirdly it is made from human hair so it may help with bald spots.
Don, I mixed another batch today. I need to know they can be duplicated.
The smell of the NY is wonderful. I am pretty sure the NY also contributes to the flavor of the bread. In my book the taste is out of sight... I’m not sure much can be done to improve yesterday’s batch. It was completely SD and so far there is not staling (~30 hr).
Danny,
I ran a BF temperature test yesterday (at 24 C and 27°C for fou rhours) and will look at the results in a little while, but now that you have changed two variables (added BOTH fava bean flour and nutritional yeast) we have to get you to run the same process with each individually so that we can tease out what the contribution is from each one. And if somebody else does it we have no confidence that "all other things are equal".
I tried the Fava Beans without Nutritional Yeast before this latest test. I didn’t notice any difference at all. Not taste, handling, or loft. Maybe I missed something.
I am retarding a duplicate of the last bake now. Will bake in the morning.
BUT, even with the NY I have no idea how others are Slap and Folding 300 reps with this 68% (some whole grain) dough. Today I forced 150 reps, rested 20 min and quite after 20 more. The dough was way to resistant. No one else is stating a problem, but I have consistently. Next attempt with increase the hydration to 70% and see if that helps. I’m not going to force the slap & folds any more. I can’t make it happen, and I’m mixing by hand, and no machine gluten development.
It takes a fair amount of work to fine tune a formula, if excellence is the goal. As I know, you know...
In dough form now. So "throw all the other things being equal"out the window. The NY dough is like pulling toffee and nearly as sticky. The FB gluten is much stronger. With Dan's mix I was reminded of the Steven Wright joke that went "I put a humidifier and a de-humidifier in the same room and let them fight it out."
I may retard in bulk rather than shaped It's just how I roll. Frankly I seldom have a problem with a baguette dough resisting stretching but that might be because I do far less kneading/FF/SF and let time do that for me. It's easier for me to build tension than take it out. I'm going to stretch the next one out like pasta with the NY just for the sensation. Maybe even laminate it out and roll it up like a newspaper.
Don, I keep forgetting to Bulk Retard. It sure makes things a lot easier when storing in the fridge. Do you think Bulk Retarding causes less open crumb? I ask because it seems that when the cold dough is stretched out that the cell structure is pushed down. But if the dough is shaped, then retarded the cells have a long time to slowly recover. What are your thoughts?
Guess what? the NY made the dough so extensible that the dough was inadvertently stretched out too far. The dough got away from me. Wanted 22", got 24. had to tuck it up, the stone is only 22" wide.
I shaped the dough using Doc's Silicone Baking Mat idea and it worked very well. It seems better than straight on the Corian.
I have not made many sourdough baggies. I am not familiar with any popular or common baguette recipe that retards the shaped bread is the reason why I never did it. I see it used while waiting for oven space but not as standard practice. I assumed Alfanso did it to adapt to the recipes like the Hammelman batard versions and it suits his style. I worry that the crust is affected most by the long exposure and the crumb would relax too much. The scoring should be easier but a prefermented dough will age out after too much time.
Timing on the floor before retarding and recognizing the right time to shape after resting is critical in the bulk retard method but the dough is more lively in what is essentially the first rise of a yeasted dough.
I shape on wood which I like because it responds well to a light dusting of flour and has a maximum grip when you want it. It is not as good as others for mixing and slap and folds because the wood sucks the moisture out if it is not oiled first. I tried S&F on a Silpat with water underneath but it ended up pulling off with the dough and i could not use a metal bench scraper on it. Wood requires some care occasionally but I see the pros work on it so I can't use it for an excuse when it fights me. I have done some baking on a stainless steel table and liked it and the bakery in my head would have all the different elements stone, wood, steel, hands.
I’m not sure if what I experienced with my hybrid baguettes is pertinent, but the crumb on my bulk retard was more open than the baguettes that were shaped prior to cold retard. Of course I think the main reason is that the bulk retard dough mass continued to ferment longer than the shaped doughs. But shaping after cold retard didn’t have a negative effect on the crumb.
In YOUR Original POST introducing your latest bake, you don’t mention how the dough was handled and also the timing.
I want to know exactly your method. Did the dough BF before retarding in bulk? How did you handle the dough after it was removed from the bulk retard? And any other pertinent info.
It was be super great to be able to get excellent results with a bulk retard, especially with long baguettes that don’t easily fit into the fridge.
I may give your process a go in the morning. Levain is percolating as I write this.
I bulk fermented the dough to about 30% rise. I then divided the dough into two halves, one to do final shaping and the other half was shaped into a boule and put into the fridge. After about 13.5 hours of cold retard the dough was divided into three. I loosely shaped each into a longish loose roll keeping in mind that I was trying to be able to get the final length without too much extra elongation during final shaping. I let them rest about 10 mins (I probably should have waited longer) and then did final shaping. I say I should have waited a bit longer because there was some resistance to elongation and a bit more bench time may have helped. After shaping I put them back into the fridge so they wouldn’t over proof while I got the oven back up to 500ºF with the Silvia towel and cast iron skillet back up to temperature.
Is there anything else you’d like to know Dan?
Benny, to be sure I understand.
You BF to 30% rise, the bulk retarded for 13.5 hr. Preshaped (long log) the cold dough straight out of the fridge with no bench time. Then after 10 min rest shaped. You put the dough back in the fridge for an hour (?) or so to preheat the oven. Once the oven was up to temp you baked.
Did you use CY?
Bulked dough taken out of the fridge and divided immediately and pre-shaped cold. Bench rest 10 minutes then final shaped. Returned to the fridge for about 30 minutes or so for the oven to get back up to 500ºF for 15 mins. This was the time after the first set was taken out of the oven.
I used Abel’s Pain au Levain which includes 0.07% IDY.
These were bulk fermented for four hours at two different temperatures to see if there is any significant difference in the resulting crumb. While the lower temperature should result in less fermentation and that may be the case, it did not show up as a major differentiator in the end product. The upper loaf in the photo was fermented at 27°C and the lower one was fermented at 24°C. Both then went into the retarder set to 3°C/38°F for four hours after which they were divided and shaped into baguettes weighing 383g each. Counter proof time was a little over 45 min and they were OK to handle but soft with fairly large bubbles visible at the surface. Oven cycle was 525°F preheat with 100% steam, then 2 minutes of steam only which drops the oven to ~400°F, then 6 min@ 500°F and 9 min @ 450°F at a humidity of 20%. Convection fan speed was low.
Next time I will reduce the BF time depending on whether I decide to work at 24°C or 27°C or at some other temp.
Doc, what was the rise difference between 75F & 80F?
Which formula did you use?
Formula was similar to last time with a longer autolyse because something came up that I had to attend to: 12% pff, 67% hydration, 100% high gluten flour, 2% salt, no additives. Water was iced down to 60°F to get the dough temperature below 73°F at end of mix. But the long autolyse (1:20) allowed the dough to warm up some and it finished the mix right at 24°C. Since I was going to fold every 20 min for at least 3 hrs I didn't overmix and let time and folds develop the strength it needed. My impression was that the cooler dough was more extensible while I was folding them, but after the 4 hrs of retardation I could not feel any difference. Both batches were getting puffy at 4 hrs of BF and I knew that they had gone too long but did not cut it short. The bulk retard was four hours while I was away so there were no intermediate pokes or temperature tests. Both handled well when preshaped, then rested for 20 min, then final shaped, but they were somewhat delicate due to having a lot of gas stored in the matrix. I could feel the bubbles rolling around under me as I final shaped. Probably could have gone to the oven 15 min after shaping but that just seemed too soon so I waited. Crust was a little light at 12 minutes so I turned the fan back up from intermittent to 1/2 speed and that quickly brought on the browning.
I've been baking a bit without time to post. The conversation went the same direction so here is mine. Life threw me some lemons with two batches of dough in the middle of bulk ferment...which forced a round of doing the cold retard before shaping. I had something else in mind to test...but oh well. They were in retard for about 28 hours.
I'm using Alan's Hamelman's Pain au Levain w/WW without the later revisions except I've swapped some WW and Rye into the starter and the ap into the final dough, respectively. I find that using this starter intensifies the sourdough flavor. In fact, baked without retard it is approximately the same flavor as the entirely all-purpose starter with retard.
From cold retard, the dough rested for 10 minutes and then preshaped directly. 20 minute rest. Final shape and then rest for 10 minutes before baking.
The two on the left are 75% hydration, original formula on right.
To be honest, the circumstances are such that I don't remember which had a longer bulk ferment prior to retard...but since the crumb was more open I'll probably go with the higher hydration.
One nice change was that the crust was thinner and crisper versus loaves I've shaped before retard. It didn't have the pretty bubbles but I assume since the shaped dough wasn't exposed to the open air as long, it didn't dry out.
I've realized I'm overlapping too much. My scores are better on either end with more surface tension. Going to focus on that.
Shaping after cold retard makes me think of experimenting with a wild yeast version of "Bread in Five Minute a Day" breads. Essentially, creating a formula which can be made and retarded to cut a hunk of dough off of and bake in little time for daily meals. Mix once, use for several days before it becomes glop.
Is there anyone who has written such a book written with sourdough in mind?
How was the shaping experience with the cold dough?
I am wondering what the results would be if the bulk retard was pre-shaped and shaped as you described, but then bake to the fridge in shaped form for 4 or more hours, then slashed and baked cold.
” One nice change was that the crust was thinner and crisper versus loaves I've shaped before retard.” This is encouraging, may try the bulk retard to tomorrow.
Jen, how long have you been baking SD and baguettes in general?
Honestly it was late at night, it had already retarded over 24 hours and didn't want the dough to go to waste. I was attempting to warm up the dough a little faster by elongating it. I didn't like how the cold dough compressed when I divided it. On the second batch, I used a knife to gently saw through it instead of using a bench scraper to divide it. The second batch shaped easier because of this.
You are thinking right up my alley with a preshape and then retard. I was wondering the same thing. In particular, I watched a baker that used Alfanso's shaping as both preshape and shape. Rolling the dough into an elongated cylinder as the preshape. Lengthening it as the final shape with a very light touch. I wonder how this would work in combination with the retard. Bulk, preshape as elongated piece, retard, light shape and bake.
I baked sourdough a smidge years ago but didn't have time since. I've been back to it for a couple of months. In the past, I got frustrated because I couldn't achieve the results I wanted. Finding this site was...wow! I think my first bake here was my third baguette bake, overall.
I’ve baked a lot of bread for each and every Community Bake, but this one tops them all. This bake attempted to duplicate Bake #10. A few exceptions, dropped the Fava Bean, eliminated the Slap & Folds, and raised the hydration to 70%.
It is reassuring to know that my favorite baguette (bake #10) wasn’t a fluke and can be easily duplicated. The crispy crust and creamy medium soft interior doesn’t disappoint. I detect no noticeable difference with or without the Fava Beans.
Two separate batches were baked, the main difference being the first was 550F and the second, 485F. In all images below the first bake is at the bottom of the image. The crumb shot shows bake #1 and also #2.
The varied bakes may have taught me something. High heat, darker coloration but more importantly, the crumb was more open.
A shaping mistake may have also lead to an important discovery (to be determined). The loaf at the very top was shaped without pre-shaping, and then stretched out. Contrary to popular belief, can it be that a super tight shape is not necessary? And the slightly looser shape may facilitate more oven spring due to less compressive force. Much more experimentation is needed before any type of conclusion can be drawn. This also causes me to consider whether weaker flour will produce more open and lofty baguettes.
I hope some don’t find these post obnoxious. Am Im pleased with these latest bakes, absolutely! But these post are not meant to brag, but to share. This is the purpose of the CBs.
Spoiler Alert...
If these post are irritating, please don’t check in tomorrow. I’ll be baking #12 and it may succeed. But I’ve baked enough bread to know that “ugly” is just waiting around the corner to humble the proud baker. <I am laughing out loud>
It is incredible the progress you have made Dan, these baguettes are incredible. The shaping is so consistent, even, slender and long. I like the colour of the ones baked at the higher temperature. My baguettes baked at a higher temperature were my favourite as well. Your shaping mishap will be interesting to repeat and maybe you can expand on what happened as well once you have repeated it.
Amazing baguettes Sir.
That's incredible- congratulations on this !
Just trying to summarize what we learned so that we have it in one place:
High hydration is not terribly important and is probably a hindrance, the dough needs it to be stiff enough to handle at the temperature you choose. 67% to 70% (with successful excursions as high as 75%) hydration is an acceptable band depending on your flour.
Both commercial yeast and sourdough starter (in multiple forms) can be used effectively for baguettes.
Salt at <=2% was adequate and I didn't see any formulations that used more.
Strong flour is not necessary and perhaps makes the job harder, a somewhat weaker flour either by selection or by combining multipe flours seemed to yield very nice baguettes. I don’t see any particular protein level wining out and you can make good baguettes from AP or high gluten flour. Reducing the mix time somewhat was a successful approach to getting less gluten development in the dough. There was no explicit measure of how much mixing was enough or optimal.
A long cool fermentation (20-25°C and at least 2 hrs and up to 4 hrs) seemed to promote a more open crumb.
A bulk retard before shaping seemed to produce good results for everybody who tried it. There did not seem to be any consensus on how long to retard, with times varying from 4 hours to 24 hrs and all yielding good results. Retard temperatures corresponded to typical residential refrigerator temperatures (~38°F/4°C) So perhaps the value of the retard is simply in thoroughly chilling the dough enough to effectively stop fermentation.
Shaping right out of retard works well, and adding some nutritional yeast (as a reducing agent) to the initial mix seemed to help promote a more extensible dough. The specific guidance on quantity awaits further testing but 2% nutritional yeast enhanced extensibility (but at 2% impacts the taste in ways that may or may not always appeal). There is a suggestion that pre-shaping may not be required with doughs that are sufficiently extensible to shape in a single step, but this requires further investigation.
Fava bean flour (at a 2% level) as an essential additive was not supported by the evidence.
Diastatic malt at 2% (well above the more typical 0.3%) promoted a darker brown crust than smaller amounts or no addition (i.e., just using what is added at the mill). Gummy crumb was not explicitly noted to be present at this level of use.
High initial baking temperature (500°F to 550°F) and plenty of wet steam produced shiny and well browned crusts. Reducing oven temperature to 450°F after some period of time produced good results while maintaining 500°F or higher appeared to char the tips of the ears, and the bottom of the loaf if precautions were not taken to reduce bottom heat.
Baking times depended on the oven and the baker and probably the bread being baked so no generalization seems practical at this point.
What did I miss? And what did I misstate?
(I am making edits here as corrections and suggestions come in so check the date/time of this post - Doc)@@@
and should I venture into baguettes this will be a great start and summary....I am trying to learn about machine mixing at the moment and deciding what 'beast' to buy...so as I was catching up in the Michael Suas book...He also mentions there the use of nutritional yeast for extensibility.
All those amazing bakes... Kat
Thanks Doc for putting the summary together.
"High hydration is not terribly important". I've found my own sweet spot in Doc Dough's range, not often going much north of 70% hydration. My belief with no actual proof, is that French bakers will roam within that same 67% - 70% range, unless they are trying to create some "boutique" product. Of course as we've learned, M. Bouabsa's standard baguette is at 75% hydration, so whose going to argue against that?
"Strong flour is not necessary and perhaps makes the job harder". The more I look at it, the more I agree with this. No clear consensus re: true French flours. T55 & T65 are equally bandied about. When I first started with Mr. Hamelman's Bread, he calls for "Bread Flour", which I took to mean what is on our supermarket shelves as Bread Flour. But what he seems to mean is the KA AP flour at 11.7% protein. Our kendalm's preferred brand is Le Moulin d'Auguste, if I have that correct. Their T55 is ~12% protein, their T65 at ~10% protein. Throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into the mix, other millers and references state that T55 has the lower of the protein percentage!
"A bulk retard before shaping seemed to produce good results for everybody who tried it." This is something that I did pretty much right out of the chute, although I would divide and shape somewhere about halfway though the retard time. And always worked well for me. It is only in the past month or so that I began to divide and shape directly from BF and then retard the couched dough for the "required time" 12-16 hours or whatever. And I find two things - so far. I don't yet see a distinct difference, if any, by shaping before retard. Shaping dough that has not yet had time to stiffen up via retard seems to be a simpler and cleaner task, and I believe that I'm "fighting" the dough just a little less by doing so. Still too early in my own experience to have any true meaningful opinion, but so far I've really liked the change.
"adding some nutritional yeast (as a reducing agent) to the initial mix seemed to help promote a more extensible dough". Although I'm anything but a traditional French Baguette formula guy, going far afield to try just about anything in baguette shape, I've been steering clear of ingredients not labeled flour, water or salt (or IDY). Exclusive of any fruit, seeds or nuts, I try to stick to this ideal. However, the recent foray into Nutritional Yeast has been pretty eye-opening based on field reports from our intrepid CB participants. As I am one of the recalcitrants when it comes to rolling out a full length baguette (I also usually also refer to what I do as "long batard" thanks to M. Calvel's definition), I've barely, if ever, yet to experience a dough that would not roll out with sufficient extensibility. That may well be due to their length - the depth of my oven. So it is with a fair amount of curiosity that it is worth exploring the addition of the NY. Dan is already swearing by an increase in smell and taste. If his extraordinary progress in these few short weeks is any indication of how he has stepped up his game with NY, who can argue with that kind of success? I'm so far still a fan of the pre-shape and rest before shaping, but willing to be convinced otherwise.
"Diastatic malt at 2%". King Arthur website states that addition of Diastatic Malt should be in the ratio of "1/2-1 tsp. of the powder to 3 cups of flour." That works out to somewhere between 1.2g - 2.4g of Diastatic Malt to ~380g of white flour. Which works out to ~ 0.3% - 0.6%. (check my math on that please!) If we want to call a baguette's pre-baked weight 380g, then adding between 0.3% - 0.6% would seem to be appropriate. Of course many mills do add Malted Barley Flour to white flour in the USA already. Caution should be applied to how much you're willing to experiment to get that added boost in BF and darker crust without sacrificing it for a gummy crumb.
"High initial baking temperature". This also is dependent on the baking deck. My understanding that thick metal decks will quickly scorch the underside of the dough. My 3/4 inch thick granite is an incredible heat sink once sufficiently up to oven temp. and depending on the mix it may be able to sustain a 500dF bake. Even when the oven temp is dropped, the baking deck will not be compliant for the duration of the bake. A lot of variables here: baking deck composition and thickness, heating elements, where the baking deck is placed in the oven, electric or gas ovens, introduction of convection baking post-steam release. My own personal experience is that I get a well browned crust while keeping the oven set to between 460dF-480dF for all bakes, rarely going above or below that. As our venerable Dr. Snyder occasionally writes, YMMV.
Alan, the CB enlightens me once again!
” "A bulk retard before shaping seemed to produce good results for everybody who tried it." This is something that I did pretty much right out of the chute, although I would divide and shape somewhere about halfway though the retard time.”
Your idea to shape the bulk retarded dough at some time in the middle of retardation is interesting. It may provide the very best of both worlds.
I’m thinking complete a bare minimum of room temp BF (25-30%), then bulk retard. A minimum of 2 or 3 hr and possible much more before the bake is to commence, divide and/or shape, then return to the fridge. Outstanding! This way the dough should (theoretically) be more extensible because of the room temp BF and long retard combined, and it is cold to slash and bake. It is only theory at this time to me, but the thought is exciting!
"I’m thinking complete a bare minimum of room temp BF (25-30%), then bulk retard"
I went to "full BF" prior to the initial bulk retard. And as I've mentioned many times before, I do watch the clock and not the dough. So full BF is based on when the timer goes off, not when the dough reaches a certain point in fermentation.
I don't necessarily expect anyone/everyone to follow my regimen, just reporting the news here.
Mix, BF, then bulk retard long enough to fully chill the dough, then divide and shape, then put back into retard, then remove, slash, and bake. That description has no final proof that I detect. When, and at what temperature does final proof take place, or is there really no final proof?
Just realized that this might have been directed at me...
Your sequence is the exact playbook that I've followed for the past 5 years on most bakes. There is no final proof in my kitchen when I go that route.
When I load the oven with a Sylvia Steaming Towel, I set my timer to 13 minutes. When it goes off the couched dough is removed from retard, and without hesitation loaded onto the baking peel, scored and placed into the oven with a fresh dose of 2 cups of near-boiling water onto the lava rocks, which sit directly below the baking deck.
I reset the oven temp as soon as the oven door closes to force the oven to re-fire and bing it back to desired temp. I do the temp reset every time the oven door is opened - basically at steam -release time and then toward any final stage to shuffle the bread around further. The final 2-3 minutes are reserved for venting with the oven usually turned off, and the door left ajar.
Popping this up here after reading Alan's point on the two types and in particular the protein content. To my knowledge (and I will verify with Phillippe at lepicerie.com) they should both be in the 10% range. The primary difference between the two is ash content where T65 is a pinch higher at .65 percent or something like that. What you notice about T65 immediately is it is more of a yellow hue whereas T55 is whiter owing to the varying levels of 'ash' which I understand to be the pulverized bran. The flour is milled 'close to the bran' and as such is like a whole wheat / white blend but without chunky bran dispersed through the particles. I'm pretty sure that this milling technique is one factor that lends to much less resistant dough compared to similar protein content american flour.
I would be interested to see what Danny has to say now that he has acquired a shipment as of yesterday. The one thing is for sure in my humble opinion - The flavor is quite dramatic and its (again) my primary motivation for baking with real french grown and milled T55/65. It's just one of those things when once you've had it in france from a small boulangerie you become quite addicted to it and most experiences eating domestic 'artisan' baguettes leaves you usually disappointed :/
Geremy, you’re the pro here, but according to the importer/distributor (L'Epicerie) T65 is ~10% protein and T55 is 12%. Odd though, they list T55 as “Pastry French Flour”.
From their site -
Pastry French Flour T55 Appropriate and recommended for use in all your cakes, viennoiseries (croissants), brioches, crepes, and recipes calling for pastry flour. All of our flours are Unbleached, Non-bromated, and GMO-Free!
Moulin d'Auguste is a traditional artisan meunier (artisan miller) and all of our imported French flours are produced from French grown wheat or grain in his mill located in Normandie, in the northwest of France. A dedication and passion for well-crafted flour is at the heart of his endeavor, and each year they produce a limited quantity of refined flours sought after by the most demanding pastry chefs and bakers.
Additional important information: Quite a number of our customers who have experienced feeling ill or other reactions while eating bread and pastries made with flour in the U.S. , have reported that while traveling in Europe they are able to enjoy all forms of sandwiches, breads, and pastries without any similar reactions. A pastry chef friend of ours had the same experience: while eating bread or wheat-based products in the U.S. makes him feel ill, he has no such reaction to bread in France. Some experts we contacted think this could be related to either a GMO issue or due to additives in some U.S. flours. While we are not claiming to have run a scientific experiment or have the definitive answer on this issue, we wanted to share the experience of some customers who have contacted us about this.
To be clear, the French flours available at L'Epicerie are NOT gluten-free, and if you have a medical condition that prevents you from eating gluten you should continue to follow the advice of a medical professional.
Please note: Not all French flours are created equal! Due to the economic realities, a number of French millers are importing less expensive U.S. wheat in to France and milling it into flour. Since the flours are produced in France they do not have the U.S. origin on their label. All of the French flours at L'Epicerie.com are imported from France and come from certified non-GMO wheat, guaranteed to be grown and harvested in France before being milled into flour.
French classification for flour is based on the resulting amount of residue after processing 10 kg (22 lbs of flour) in a 900_C (1,650_F) oven. T45 or Type 45 is the lowest and whitest flour with only around 45 grams of mineral contents left after the burning process and no part of the bran (outer enveloping shell of the grain) remaining. T65 to T150 are considered whole flour classifications with a higher degree of mineral contents and more bran leftover (higher number means higher bran content). A T45 flour corresponds to a 00 (doppio zero) italian flour type, with T65 a 0 italian type.
Gluten (protein) content: ~ 12%
Mineral Content: ~ .55 - .60%
*************************************
Organic French Flour T65
Appropriate and recommended for use in all whole bread recipes or applications. All of our flours are Unbleached, Non-bromated, and GMO-Free!
Moulin d'Auguste is a traditional artisan meunier (artisan miller) and all of our imported French flours are produced from French grown wheat or grain in his mill located in Normandie, in the northwest of France. A dedication and passion for well-crafted flour is at the heart of his endeavor, and each year they produce a limited quantity of refined flours sought after by the most demanding pastry chefs and bakers.
Additional important information: Quite a number of our customers who have experienced feeling ill or other reactions while eating bread and pastries made with flour in the U.S. , have reported that while traveling in Europe they are able to enjoy all forms of sandwiches, breads, and pastries without any similar reactions. A pastry chef friend of ours had the same experience: while eating bread or wheat-based products in the U.S. makes him feel ill, he has no such reaction to bread in France. Some experts we contacted think this could be related to either a GMO issue or due to additives in some U.S. flours. While we are not claiming to have run a scientific experiment or have the definitive answer on this issue, we wanted to share the experience of some customers who have contacted us about this.
To be clear, the French flours available at L'Epicerie are NOT gluten-free, and if you have a medical condition that prevents you from eating gluten you should continue to follow the advice of a medical professional.
Please note: Not all French flours are created equal! Due to the economic realities, a number of French millers are importing less expensive U.S. wheat in to France and milling it into flour. Since the flours are produced in France they do not have the U.S. origin on their label. All of the French flours at L'Epicerie.com are imported from France and come from certified non-GMO wheat, guaranteed to be grown and harvested in France before being milled into flour.
French classification for flour is based on the resulting amount of residue after processing 10 kg (22 lbs of flour) in a 900_C (1,650_F) oven. T45 or Type 45 is the lowest and whitest flour with only around 45 grams of mineral contents left after the burning process and no part of the bran (outer enveloping shell of the grain) remaining. T65 to T150 are considered whole flour classifications with a higher degree of mineral contents and more bran leftover (higher number means higher bran content). A T45 flour corresponds to a 00 (doppio zero) italian flour type, with T65 a 0 italian type.
Gluten (protein) content: ~ 10%
Mineral Content: ~ 0.65%
I don't know why I thought the T65 was 10%. I've spoken to phillippe at lepicerie a number of times and somehow that number stuck in my head (10%). What I can say is that you dont notice any difference between they way the doughs handle - you can only really distinguish by the color and maybe a little more character in the T65 flavor. As for the pastry 55 - I've actually ordered some on Philippe's recommendation for croissant. I tried laminating with the T45 once and it's impossible, so while chatting with him last week he mentioned he has T55 pastry that is a strong version of the regular T55. Keep in mind his inventory really fluctuates based on availability, customs etc so I believe the regular T55 for bread is out of stock at the moment. Back to the point, the flour naming does not really tell us much about the protein and you wont see it on the label. One last point - this flour seems vary quite a bit with each harvest. At one point a shipment I received had to be reduced by about another 3-5% hydration because it was very slack, which, I'm sure you will find out very soon.
Gluten (protein) content: ~ 10%
Mineral Content: ~ 0.65%
I mentioned before but again I'm confident these specs are on a dry moisture basis as per the European standard.
Converting to 14% moisture basis as used in the US...
T65 = 0.62-0.75% (*0.86) = 0.53 - 0.65% Ash
10% protein (*0.86) = 8.6% protein
00 flour can perhaps be more closely approximated with T55 than T45.
European designations of Ash content: 0% moisture basis.
source:https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farine
source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farina
And T45 that is suitable for croissants and puff pastry will be significantly higher in protein as these items require strong gluten. Therefore the term pastry can be said to mean refined (low ash) rather than to mean weak or low gluten. Not all pastry items are shortcrust. e.g. croissant, brioche and other leavened pastry goods.
Maybe what I’m about to say is understood by all, maybe not.
I am now able to rationalize the calculating differences between the European method and the American.
A working example -
2) packages of the identical flour is to be analyzed. Each sample contains 10g protein. One in the US, the other in Europe.
Question -
If the American lab found the sample to contain only 12% moisture would they add an additional 2% to make up the difference?
Its easy enough to realize that if the Europeans had any amount of moisture in a given sample that all of it would be removed.
I am aware that post like this reveal my simple mindedness, but I am willing to be exposed in order to learn. And maybe others who dare not ask these types of simplistic questions will benefit at the same time.
Your simpleton,
Danny
I notice I have done the conversion the wrong way.
Mental rule, more moisture therefore more dilute and so figures decrease.
Correcting now...done
Michael, When you wrote the flour was in the 11% neighborhood, confidence arose, but 8.6 is causing that to quickly eroded.
Real glad I checked with Geremy. He told me to hold back 5%. I thought that sounded ridiculous, but held 10% out for bassinage. Thank God! Ended up adding 4% more which brought the total hydration to 69%. So 6% was actually held out on a formula that called for 75.
French flour is a huge change from the handling characteristics that I'm accustomed to. This is an exciting adventure and plan to precede with caution.
Danny, hold fire. I think I am going crazy. My mind is completely numb (lack of sleep). I think I was correct in the first place! I need someone with a fresh mind to help me out!
My brain is sputtering over here trying to rationalize this, also. I’ll standby before they call out the padded wagon.
Just arrived -
How could I mix French flour with Morton’s table salt? Perish the thought. Broke out the mortar and pestle and pulverized some flakes.
Vive la France
Question - at $2.60/pound will tomorrow bring a happy face or a sad one? Either way, I had to see for myself...
With this flour is 72%. Maybe just maybe on occasion to 73% and will depend on the shipment. Any higher and you making ciabatta ;)
Geremy, have you noticed the the moisture content is 15.5%? The US is typically 14%. This may account for some of the hydration differences.
Not quite. The methods of analysis are carried according to certain standards which are actually for the most part, the same. In both cases the flour must be dried out to 0% moisture initially. However the US analysis adjusts the figures afterwards to assume 14% moisture.
US methods are defined by AACC.
In reality the moisture content of flour is of course variable. But maximums exist to ensure stability 14-15%.
https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/hints-tips/cheat-sheets/european-flour-numbering-system
It seems to me that a miller could produce flour that meets each of these definitions (and I don't know if the definitions are complete) from different batches of wheat and the resulting bread-making properties might vary quite a bit.
The French system of grading by ash content guarantees nothing about the protein content or the quality of the gluten but gives you an idea of what the yield is on percentage of input wheat weight. You might make a T85 flour from a strong Canadian hard red winter wheat that behaves rather differently than a T85 flour milled from a soft white spring wheat.
And to Michael's point about moisture content, my understanding is that millers have to pre-condition wheat to a known (if not always 14%) moisture content so that the kernel breaks into bran, germ, and endosperm in the first (and perhaps succeeding) stages of a roller mill. Successive stages (after screening or whatever they do to separate the mill streams) then get milled further before being recombined into commercial products. I think the standard of 14% is the moisture basis for buying bulk grain (at least wheat). But in a lab, it doesn't make any difference and having any moisture in the flour just makes things inaccurate so zero moisture is the default baseline.
for summarising this. with so much happening here daily it has been hard to keep up.
I am encourage to try again soon!
thanks again, we have learnt such a lot.
Leslie
Hello Alfanso,
Danny Ayo emailed and told me of your CB project, which I have just checked out. I am so impressed with your endeavor, and the decision to use a naturally leavened formula for the baguettes. And I'm so impressed with the great range of responses from other FL bakers. I suspect that the crust of the pain au levain baguettes is thicker than what I typically prefer, from yeasted baguettes, but that does not diminish my respect for your broad view. Like so many others who are FL devotees, you are a classic "amateur." By this I mean the following: here in the US, "amateur" is considered to be a somewhat demeaning term. But etymologically speaking it comes from the Latin and means "lover." Yep, it's the amateurs who exhibit a great love for their chosen hobby, and often they are more experimental and inquisitive than the professionals. Undoubtedly, home bakers in the US and elsewhere are making a palpable and excellent evolution to the world of bread baking. Isn't this wonderful?
All the best,
Jeffrey Hamelman
I believe that I can comfortably speak for the many TFL adherents to state that your skills and knowledge are considered revered.
Dan enlisted me to co-host this CB, and I saw my participation in large part to help "goose" along the willing, and perhaps the not-so-willing.
We have had a fair amount of enthusiastic participation in this CB. Some entered with their baguette skills already in superb form, other dabblers with varying degrees of baguette skills are represented, and then the newly indoctrinated. And almost universally we've seen a tremendous uptick in quality in their posts as they rapidly increase the skills at this "most difficult" shape.
Without our own Dan riding herd, the real host of the CBs, this wouldn't have been possible. And it is quite likely that Dan has progressed the most, being the "Thomas Edison" type. His most recent bakes have exhibited an extraordinary level of accomplishment and could justifiably sit alongside baguettes in the windows of the finest French bakeries anywhere.
As I'm sure that you know, our CB bakers inhabit not just the USA but are from across the globe, making their participation in the CB and elsewhere on TFL an international affair. Perhaps we should use bread baking as our way to foster world peace, as it seems to be a multi-national cooperative of friendly, helpful and supportative meeting of the minds (and hands).
With the recent surge in nascent or long-gone and returning bakers, thanks to the worldwide lockdown, we are assured of fostering a new surge of amateur bakers for the love of it all.
Thanks, alan
Fourscore and seven baguettes ago our Alfanso brought forth, on this community bake, a new damnation, conceived in sourdough and yeast, and dedicated to the proposition that all breads are created equal. Some just take more practice.
I went off the rails a little on my last bake with the additives. Adding fava bean flour to one batch and nutritional yeast to the other. The FB did noticeably strengthen the gluten to the point of needing more water to loosen things up which I didn't add. The NY did the opposite and made a dough that you could pull like toffee. Two percent FB is about a tablespoon 2% NY is at least a 1/4 cup and overwhelmed the mix in color, texture and taste. The FB had lesss affect on flavor but still a stepped on quality to the all white flour mix.
I used the Bouabsa recipe 400 gr total flour roughly 73% hydration on both and a rounded 1/8 tsp yeast. I used ADY in the NY and it worked the same. It seems that no matter what recipe I use I get the same looking baton out of the oven more or less. It seems to me the scores account for much of the appearance of a baguette and we all have a distinct way to make the same cut.
FB on top first time to get 7 scores on a baggie. The NY had a nice yellow open crumb but the taste was just off putting to me. If I were to use it again I would cut it by at least half
After trying different recipes I am back to where I started. I prefer the yeasted batons with or without sourdough for eating qualities. The crust is far better, the PB&J sandwiches are easier to bite into, the french toast is lighter and the croutons are not rock hard. Maybe because of where I live my breads are all north of 70% hydration and besides I just like working with a wet dough. I am fascinated by holes and drawn to them. Sometimes that comes with a cost but other times a big open reward.
I also want to add that baguettes freeze well wrapped in plastic and reheat to good as new (325 degrees 8 minutes) So there is no excuse not to keep on practicing.
Edit: For the international viewers the first paragraph was hacked from one of the greatest speeches in our US history that we don't have to apologize for. Gettysburg address
The NY-enhanced loaf above exhibits a very open crumb and the dough is described as being very extensible. But the impact on taste is assessed as a negative.
This suggests that we should be looking for a lower bound on NY usage that still provides adequate extensibility. The increments I would examine to uncover the range of interest would be 1%, 0.5%, 0.25%, and 0.1%, and since I am not baking today, I will let others sign up for which one they want to try. Since I suspect that it is the L-cysteine that is the active component I will probably start at the low end with the option to go lower if 0.1% delivers sufficient extensibility to avoid pre-shaping.
Taste is so subjective! Watch the cooking shows and notice that the panel of world renown chefs disagree on many things concerning taste. One baker can’t get his or her breads sour enough, and another is turned away at any degree of sour.
For my taste buds NY gets an overwhelming A+. I would use it even if it did nothing to increase the dough’s extensibility.
...and both Don and myself are correct.
Ain’t baking great?
Danny
I should say that the aroma of my NY had declined since it was opened a few months ago and maybe between brands there is a difference in flavor. It weighs almost nothing so it was a lot in volume and I should have stopped before the 2% level. In combination with the FB might be the best way to let them fight it out but at minuscule proportions depending on the flour being used and the hydration.
Wow Don, nice length you’re getting on your baguettes now. Still your consistency of the shaping and scoring is on display for us to admire.
I am glad you are enjoying the process. Your breads are showing remarkable results for someone just diving in and putting them out there. I wandered in the wilderness for a long time.
Love these rustic loaves - nice work !
As much as I try for that neat and tidy city baguette look with the pointy ends it comes out the same way. I guess you roll who you are which in my case is a slash-happy rustic country boy with his shirt untucked.
Your image seems to confirm that the Fava has increased strength (smaller circumference - 2 top loaves) and the NY for extensibility (less strength - larger circumference - 2 bottom loaves)? I ask because if the top and bottom baguettes were shaped the same, it seems apparent that the bottom 2 opened more (larger circumference) than the top 2.
But upon further investigation it looks like the bottom 2 were shaped shorter and consequently larger circumference.
Looking forward to trying some T65 French flour, which I expect to be a weaker flour than what I am accustomed to working with.
Don, what percentage of yeast are you using to supplement the Levain?
what in the % Pre-fermented flour?
Because the 20 inches that the first batch were rolled to were at the limit of my stone and the ends curled upward too much. My new stone needs to be moved up a rack off the bottom because these were too black on the bottom. So maybe steam from below from now on. The NY spread out more and had a flatter profile.
Both of these are CY only which is how most of mine are made for taste, texture, and convenience. When I bake other breads I try to have a batch ready to roll while the stone and oven are hot. They are simple to throw together and have a wide window of readiness
Don, extensibility seems to be the “open sesame” security code for baguette excellence.
In the past I’ve read much about baguettes and extensibility, but after 12 consecutive baguette bakes the reality of that point is well taken.
Prior to the NY, I struggled to get the dough stretched to 20 inches, now I am concerned about over extending them.
What I’ve learned in the Baguette CB will make a huge difference in many, if not all of my other breads. Someone (maybe it was you) jokingly mentioned in the beginning of this CB that I hosted the Community Bakes so that I could learn to bake better breads. That is slightly true. I always take away priceless nuggets from every CB, although the focus is always towards advancing the knowledge of all interested bakers. Hope everyone benefits from each and every CB as much or more than I do.
Your avid participation and so many others like you are what makes these events so informative and beneficial.
Bad dog. As you may have seen, I did my first NY bake this morning using the same 2%, and wrangling the dough to 22 inches. I'm in your court as far as flavor. The standard bake has lost some of its sweet crisp flavor, and I'm not getting the usual enjoyment out of the loaf. I could be wrong but it seems as though the crust is a little tougher too. Did you have any opinion about the crust, aside from the standard great look?
I'm far from throwing in the towel on NY after just a single bake. For my next bake I'll cut the NY from 2.0% to 0.5%, staying well above Doc Dough's lower proposed threshold of 0.1%.
And now I'm also curious as to how well I could roll out this formula dough, or a Bouabsa, without any additives. For some good reason, regardless of their qualities, just the word "additive" gives me a bit of the creeps, and I'm no Mr. Natural (from the most appropriately named R. Crumb).
Is water. It's what my preference is. With a little more H20 it will go to any length. We simultaneously posted the words north of 70% the other day and that is where I live as an outlier in Doc's summary. My version of the CB recipe was just upped to 75% and they came out loose and open as all get out.
in the till. Has no relevance, I just felt like typing that! And then there's my hands are down Till's pants...
I'm not sold on the whole NY thing, although I'd be my standard foolish self to write it off after a single bake. I think that I'll do the MT thang and bump the hydration up to 70% for my next go-round.
(I don't mean to be rude, but did anyone else on TFL notice that you have a dog face?). It looks like Tanner's wearing a tux in your avatar.
Standard colors for for a Small Munsterlander a German Versatile Hunting dog. The breeders must have liked chocolate sundaes. "You would leave Germany for the land of cheese, snails, and baguettes" Is your movie quiz quote for today
In his glory days when we were both younger and able to go afield. Does kind of look like a brown tuxedo
Same formula as the last few bakes. The only exception is 70% hydration and dropped the Fava Beans. The retard was also done in bulk which was new for me. All loaves were bakes with ~9 oz. of low pressure steam. A foil heat shield was placed on a rack 2 positions above the baking stone to minimize the affects of top heat for the first 10 minutes and then removed.
First bake was 2 loaves and they are located at the top of the images. The dough was removed from the fridge and pre-shaped and/or shaped right away, then shaped minutes after. Shaping went very well with the chilled dough. The first dough on the very bottom was shaped without pre-shaping as part of an on-going experiment.
The second 2 loaves, located at the bottom of the images were forgotten on the bench. I intended to put them back in the fridge after shaping. They sat for ~1 hr @ 73F. Another experiment was born.
I know the bottom loaf was over-proofed. They were accidentally left out for at least an hour @ 73F. General consensus would surely say they were under-proofed. The things we know, we only think we know...
I will be bulk retarding baguettes in the future.
The two cut loaves are different, but I don't understand exactly what the difference is. From your description the one at the bottom sat on the counter for an hour. But I don't know what the proof time or temperature was for the one above?
Doc,
The top loaf (crumb shot) was removed from the fridge and immediately pre-shaped, shaped, scored, and loaded.
The bottom loaf was left out shaped and in the couche and on the bench (in error) for an hour @ ~73F.
Wouldn’t you think the the bottom loaf was under-proofed by looking at the image?
The mix of open and well distributed alveoli and areas of dense crumb is not an underproofed look to me. I will note in the record that an overproofed loaf can look like this without falling. The dense areas may be a result of dough collapse after oven entry but it really doesn't look tight enough for that.
But what I find notable is that you could shape, score, and load the first loaf without any additional time for it to relax. I think that may just be a tribute to your shaping instincts.
Danny these are next level amazing sticks - great job !
Geremy, do you have a fix for turned up ends?
Well, I knuckled under to the urge of adding the NY to the standard formula as posted at the top. I added 2% to the mix, which worked out to 14g. I didn't really notice the difference much until it was time to pre-shape and shape the dough.
The pre-shape was soft and malleable in my hands, and knowing that I was shooting for the longer baguette on this bake let the pre-shape be a longer barrel than typical for me. 30 minutes rest and time to shape. While not quite a disaster, the shaping was like trying to play with a thick loose piece of rope. Almost unmanageable in its extensibility. It was an absurd attempt to try and wrangle the dough to be only 22 inches in length, the width of my baking deck. A fair bit of struggle.
Couche, support base to hold couche, hand peel, baking peel all had to be improvised. Not hard, as I had some things to employ, but I was sweating out whether the baking peel would be too wide for the oven. It had to be shortened on my first effort as it was a hair too wide. Which meant that it might be too short for the baguettes. But it was okay if everything was a snug fit.
The dough was mixed, BFed, and shaped last night before the overnight retard, a relatively short retard at ~9 hours.
Considering the issues, I can't say that I'm displeased with the outcome. But the lack of some oven spring, grigne, and shaping down the barrel likely can all be tied back to last night's wrangling. The opened crumb shot indicate how the shaping of the barrel of the baguette was difficult to control. The final post-bake length of the baguettes is 21 inches.
It'll still come down to taste, a first bite so far and I'm barely convinced about whether I even like the flavor as much as before. It was still worth the effort, certainly as a learning experience, and on my next bake I'll be cutting the NY down to 0.5% or 1%.
3 x 400g baguettes
I always love your signature color on your bakes. As I work to perfect my baguettes, I plan to work on color. Yours will be my goal. Maybe tomorrow, I’ll give your 480F pre-heat and baking @ 460F a try.
Needed a change. Tomorrow Bouabsa...
I'm impressed by Alfanso's photography and color/hue/saturation too.
Though, be advised that the ambient lighting has a lot to do with the apparent color of objects in a photo, in addition to the natural color of the objects.
Going by his videos and your videos, I'm guessing he has "full spectrum" or "daylight" type bulbs in his kitchen, and you have flourescent. Nothing against your or his bread or photography, it's just a fact that you guys have different types/frequencies/temperatures of lighting.
If you do have flourescent, the long tubes, next time you replace the tube bulbs, look for "full spectrum" or "daylight" or a higher "temperature." The least expensive tube flourescents are 2700 - 3000 K. Look for 5500 K or higher, though they are more expensive.
It's not just a matter of "brighter", but the frequencies of the light, and which _range_ of frequncies,
(Heh. Just like not all flour is the same flour, not all water is the same water, not all yeast is the same yeast.... not all light is the same light.)
This is why those golden blooms on loaves look so much better in sunlight as opposed to artificial light.
(BTW, both you guys are on my bread-heros list.)
I just point my iPhone at the dang bread and click. And as with your analysis, I've mentioned many times on TFL that the coloration is reddened by the incandescent lighting above, and perhaps the black surface below. Even these I moved away from the normal photo spot to the open, but they still come out pretty similar. In the open kitchen space, the lighting is by overhead LEDs in recessed cans. The crusts are in actuality a dark "chestnut brown".
Thanks for the fine compliment, but these days, elsewhere and especially on the baguette front, there's a long list of folks putting out really high quality bakes. A lot of kudos to be shared.
alan
These are great looking baguettes with perfect crumb and crust. Nice to see the long sticks too.
A few years ago kendalm forced me to bake a full size baguette (as full a size was my oven would accommodate) and I thought on review that those came out better than this bake. Those were three inches shorter and 40g lighter than this bake.
Thanks, alan
I stumbled over this post by bikeprof - to date I think this is the king of longies although we dont see the full loaf which boy I'd live to see - we know bikeprof is a kinda low profile kinda baker on TFL. Popping on every once in a while a dropping a photo that really makes you go wow - checkout the beautiful loaf about half way down - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51627/my-attempts-bouabsas-baguette
One or my my favorite things to see here on TFL when alan goes all the way ! Really great color as usual. Funny thing is your first attempt I think turned out better. That's kind of the way it goes with baking tho. Notice the ends of these took all the spring. I think thas pretty typical for me and I'm always pulling for the center to respond in the often touted '5 minute window' that I harp on about. Also the logistics of loading sideways requires some tuning over repeat bakes. For me I have a sort of muscle memory on how I do that and I think it's really important step when going sideways. Other thing - maybe you should try the standard size of 350g - you'll have less dough to 'spring'up that way. For a levain longy I gotta say I'm really jealous of this bake.
As you were posting I was just typing up the same conclusion. Good memory. I can just about roll out my standard long batard shape in my sleep now, but zero muscle memory in place for these. Felt like a rookie with the tape measure sitting just above the shaping area. As far as loading, as mentioned, I was sweating it out about whether my baggies would wind up with Jimmy Durante noses on the ends. But was able to load the three in at once with parchment under the dough, and nary a MM to spare on the sides of the baking deck.
Lots of quality levain bakes to go around in this ever longer CB.
Thanks, and looking for you to "get off the schneid" and throw some lovely levain into your wonderful bakes.
alan
...you know ... criss cross ! That the first thing I thiugh about just now - another 80s movie reference. Pretty sad living life in seclusion but at least we have TFL to pull us from the dull torpor that is covid. Ftr I got a starter on day 3. Will see if it can mature. TBD (wink emoji here)
I'm a lifelong Hitchcock fan. If you don't know the original reference, but I'm sure that you do, it was from Strangers On A Train. If you've never seen it, do yourself a favor.
I think the one that really roped me in was torn curtain - also loved north by northwest. Will probably watch strangers on a train tonight. Thanks alan !
Of course throw mama from the train references strangers on a train. Oh jeez now it all makes sense even the titles - duh - https://youtu.be/yZnjAz9Yu4g
The stampede is on. Erase the first page we are headed to new territory. The side loaders are winning them over. Nice looking baguettes. I have the bulbous ends issue too and the NY didn't sit right on the tongue for me either. Next thing you know you will be rummaging through the pantry for that lonesome pack of IDY and running with the herd.
Now I'm just flaunting my 80 and this case 90s movie references. Can you guess the movie that this line comes from ?
^^^^ for the above correct movie reference and clarification of era ^^^^
Contact with Jodie Foster. Didnt mean to derail the baking focus here but holy crap this thread is ginormous. By virtue of its size it kinda warrants some imposter topic dont ya'all think ?
Needed a change, so went with a commercially yeasted Bouabsa @ 75%. Even with KAAP it was surprising how well the high hydration dough handled. The shaping will require a little adjusting and the crumb needs work, but for a first attempt, it’s a great start. Each baggie weighed ~320g. Seems they were a little light for the length.
A possible point of interest to some. The baguettes were pulled from bulk retard after 8 hr. They were immediately divided and then shaped. There was no pre-shaping. The whole operation took only a few minutes and they were placed back into the fridge couched and sealed in a plastic bag.
Notice the image below. One dough was slashed towards me and the other away. The dough has been scored slashing towards me in the past. So many experienced bakers slash away from them, so it was given a try. It felt very good and the scores may have been slightly better. But the big plus about scoring away was the hand position when slanting the blade felt more comfortable and there was no need to lean way over the dough to see. Will consider slashing away from the body in the future.
Lessons derived during this bake
Steam
My steam comes from an external source that is injected into the oven via the top steam vent. High pressure steam is not desireable and has powerful affects. Low pressure is definitely the way to go.
Notice in the image below how one side (circled in red) is more browned and heavily blistered. You could call these third degree burns :-).
The blister in that specific location are a result of high pressure steam streaming down upon it. It is apparent that some type of diffusion will be required to more evenly disperse the steam and also high pressure steam should not be used once the dough is loaded. High pressure steam (used to release Pressure Cooker pressure) will only be used to pre-steam in the future. This won’t relate to many bakers, but Albacore and anyone else incorporating External Steam Injection may benefit.
This (image below) has become my best teacher, although many bakers around the world have provided priceless assistance.
In Bake #13 the crumb is nice, but could be improved. The concern is the tight crumb around the perimeter of the loaf. Any suggestions are appreciated.
I noticed from an image in the prior bake (pictured above), a distinct difference in cell structure. In the image below the lower loaf was mistakenly forgotten on the counter for an hour. Notice the tight cell structure around the perimeter. As a result of an error on my part it proofed at room temp at least an hour more that the top loaf. Is this issue with the image above and the loaf on the bottom below completely fermentation are or other things coming into play?
You pulled the dough out of bulk retard half way through. But we don't know the temperature of the dough at that point, and it may be significant. Since you retarded the shaped loaf for some additional (unknown) time, followed by some (or none) recovery time on the counter prior to oven entry, it is impossible to judge the relative temperature and thus the degree of additional fermentation that occured in the center of the baguette compared to what has happened near the surface. One hypothesis might be that the center of the shaped baguette had additional time at a slightly warmer temperature to mature the crumb and was thus more open than the crumb closer to the crust where, being directly exposed to the refrigerated air in the retarder, it did not undergo much additional fermentation/maturation and so remained fairly tight through the bake.
Doc,
Sure would like to solve this one...
Shot of the crumb so we can gauge the crust thickness. I'm happiest when the crust is about a thick or slightly thicker than and egg shell. That close up might support doc doughs hypothesis maybe. Is it a thick crust dan ?