Community Bake - Baguettes by Alfanso

These were bulk fermented for four hours at two different temperatures to see if there is any significant difference in the resulting crumb. While the lower temperature should result in less fermentation and that may be the case, it did not show up as a major differentiator in the end product. The upper loaf in the photo was fermented at 27°C and the lower one was fermented at 24°C. Both then went into the retarder set to 3°C/38°F for four hours after which they were divided and shaped into baguettes weighing 383g each. Counter proof time was a little over 45 min and they were OK to handle but soft with fairly large bubbles visible at the surface. Oven cycle was 525°F preheat with 100% steam, then 2 minutes of steam only which drops the oven to ~400°F, then 6 min@ 500°F and 9 min @ 450°F at a humidity of 20%.  Convection fan speed was low.

Next time I will reduce the BF time depending on whether I decide to work at 24°C or 27°C or at some other temp.

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I've been baking a bit without time to post. The conversation went the same direction so here is mine. Life threw me some lemons with two batches of dough in the middle of bulk ferment...which forced a round of doing the cold retard before shaping. I had something else in mind to test...but oh well. They were in retard for about 28 hours.

I'm using Alan's Hamelman's Pain au Levain w/WW without the later revisions except I've swapped some WW and Rye into the starter and the ap into the final dough, respectively. I find that using this starter intensifies the sourdough flavor. In fact, baked without retard it is approximately the same flavor as the entirely all-purpose starter with retard.

From cold retard, the dough rested for 10 minutes and then preshaped directly. 20 minute rest. Final shape and then rest for 10 minutes before baking.

The two on the left are 75% hydration, original formula on right. 

 To be honest, the circumstances are such that I don't remember which had a longer bulk ferment prior to retard...but since the crumb was more open I'll probably go with the higher hydration.

One nice change was that the crust was thinner and crisper versus loaves I've shaped before retard. It didn't have the pretty bubbles but I assume since the shaped dough wasn't exposed to the open air as long, it didn't dry out.

I've realized I'm overlapping too much. My scores are better on either end with more surface tension. Going to focus on that.

Shaping after cold retard makes me think of experimenting with a wild yeast version of "Bread in Five Minute a Day" breads. Essentially, creating a formula which can be made and retarded to cut a hunk of dough off of and bake in little time for daily meals. Mix once, use for several days before it becomes glop.

Is there anyone who has written such a book written with sourdough in mind?

Just trying to summarize what we learned so that we have it in one place:

High hydration is not terribly important and is probably a hindrance, the dough needs it to be stiff enough to handle at the temperature you choose.  67% to 70% (with successful excursions as high as 75%) hydration is an acceptable band depending on your flour.

Both commercial yeast and sourdough starter (in multiple forms) can be used effectively for baguettes.

Salt at <=2% was adequate and I didn't see any formulations that used more.

Strong flour is not necessary and perhaps makes the job harder, a somewhat weaker flour either by selection or by combining multipe flours seemed to yield very nice baguettes.  I don’t see any particular protein level wining out and you can make good baguettes from AP or high gluten flour. Reducing the mix time somewhat was a successful approach to getting less gluten development in the dough.  There was no explicit  measure of how much mixing was enough or optimal.

A long cool fermentation  (20-25°C and at least 2 hrs and up to 4 hrs) seemed to promote a more open crumb. 

A bulk retard before shaping seemed to produce good results for everybody who tried it. There did not seem to be any consensus on how long to retard, with times varying from 4 hours to 24 hrs and all yielding good results.  Retard temperatures corresponded to typical residential refrigerator temperatures (~38°F/4°C) So perhaps the value of the retard is simply in thoroughly chilling the dough enough to effectively stop fermentation.

Shaping right out of retard works well, and adding some nutritional yeast (as a reducing agent) to the initial mix seemed to help promote a more extensible dough. The specific guidance on quantity awaits further testing but 2% nutritional yeast enhanced extensibility (but at 2% impacts the taste in ways that may or may not always appeal).  There is a suggestion that pre-shaping may not be required with doughs that are sufficiently extensible to shape in a single step, but this requires further investigation.

Fava bean flour (at a 2% level) as an essential additive was not supported by the evidence.

Diastatic malt at 2% (well above the more typical 0.3%) promoted a darker brown crust than smaller amounts or no addition (i.e., just using what is added at the mill). Gummy crumb was not explicitly noted to be present at this level of use.

High initial baking temperature (500°F to 550°F) and plenty of wet steam produced shiny and well browned crusts. Reducing oven temperature to 450°F after some period of time produced good results while maintaining 500°F or higher appeared to char the tips of the ears, and the bottom of the loaf if precautions were not taken to reduce bottom heat.

Baking times depended on the oven and the baker and probably the bread being baked so no generalization seems practical at this point.

What did I miss?  And what did I misstate?
(I am making edits here as corrections and suggestions come in so check the date/time of this post - Doc)@@@

for summarising this.  with so much happening here daily it has been hard to keep up.  

I am encourage to try again soon! 

thanks again, we have learnt such a lot.

Leslie

Hello Alfanso, 

Danny Ayo emailed and told me of your CB project, which I have just checked out. I am so impressed with your endeavor, and the decision to use a naturally leavened formula for the baguettes. And I'm so impressed with the great range of responses from other FL bakers. I suspect that the crust of the pain au levain baguettes is thicker than what I typically prefer, from yeasted baguettes, but that does not diminish my respect for your broad view. Like so many others who are FL devotees, you are a classic "amateur." By this I mean the following: here in the US, "amateur" is considered to be a somewhat demeaning term. But etymologically speaking it comes from the Latin and means "lover." Yep, it's the amateurs who exhibit a great love for their chosen hobby, and often they are more experimental and inquisitive than the professionals. Undoubtedly, home bakers in the US and elsewhere are making a palpable and excellent evolution to the world of bread baking. Isn't this wonderful?

All the best,

Jeffrey Hamelman

 Fourscore and seven baguettes ago our Alfanso brought forth, on this community bake, a new damnation, conceived in sourdough and yeast, and dedicated to the proposition that all breads are created equal. Some just take more practice.

I went off the rails a little on my last bake with the additives. Adding fava bean flour to one batch and nutritional yeast to the other. The FB did noticeably strengthen the gluten to the point of needing more water to loosen things up which I didn't add. The NY did the opposite and made a dough that you could pull like toffee. Two percent FB is about a tablespoon 2% NY is at least a 1/4 cup and overwhelmed the mix in color, texture and taste. The FB had lesss affect on flavor but still a stepped on quality to the all white flour mix.

I used the Bouabsa recipe 400 gr total flour roughly 73% hydration on both and a rounded 1/8 tsp yeast. I used ADY in the NY and it worked the same. It seems that no matter what recipe I use I get the same looking baton out of the oven more or less. It seems to me the scores account for much of the appearance of a baguette and we all have a distinct way to make the same cut.

FB on top first time to get 7 scores on a baggie. The NY had a nice yellow open crumb but the taste was just off putting to me. If I were to use it again I would cut it by at least half

After trying different recipes I am back to where I started. I prefer the yeasted batons with or without sourdough for eating qualities. The crust is far better, the PB&J sandwiches are easier to bite into, the french toast is lighter and the croutons are not rock hard. Maybe because of where I live my breads are all north of 70% hydration and besides I just like working with a wet dough. I am fascinated by holes and drawn to them. Sometimes that comes with a cost but other times a big open reward. 

I also want to add that baguettes freeze well wrapped in plastic and reheat to good as new (325 degrees 8 minutes) So there is no excuse not to keep on practicing.

Edit: For the international viewers the first paragraph was hacked from one of the greatest speeches in our US history that we don't have to apologize for. Gettysburg address

Well, I knuckled under to the urge of adding the NY to the standard formula as posted at the top.  I added 2% to the mix, which worked out to 14g.  I didn't really notice the difference much until it was time to pre-shape and shape the dough.

The pre-shape was soft and malleable in my hands, and knowing that I was shooting for the longer baguette on this bake let the pre-shape be a longer barrel than typical for me.  30 minutes rest and time to shape.  While not quite a disaster, the shaping was like trying to play with a thick loose piece of rope.  Almost unmanageable in its extensibility.  It was an absurd attempt to try and wrangle the dough to be only 22 inches in length, the width of my baking deck.  A fair bit of struggle.

Couche, support base to hold couche, hand peel, baking peel all had to be improvised.  Not hard, as I had some things to employ, but I was sweating out whether the baking peel would be too wide for the oven.  It had to be shortened on my first effort as it was a hair too wide.  Which meant that it might be too short for the baguettes.  But it was okay if everything was a snug fit.

The dough was mixed, BFed, and shaped last night before the overnight retard, a relatively short retard at ~9 hours.

Considering the issues, I can't say that I'm displeased with the outcome.  But the lack of some oven spring, grigne, and shaping down the barrel likely can all be tied back to last night's wrangling.  The opened crumb shot indicate how the shaping of the barrel of the baguette was difficult to control. The final post-bake length of the baguettes is 21 inches.

It'll still come down to taste, a first bite so far and I'm barely convinced about whether I even like the flavor as much as before.  It was still worth the effort, certainly as a learning experience, and on my next bake I'll be cutting the NY down to 0.5% or 1%. 

3 x 400g baguettes

your work continue on here, I remember learning from your work in 2017. 

Two small batches with nutritional yeast made 3x 350g baguettes each. 11.8% pff, 67% hydration, 2% salt, 100% high gluten white flour. 23°C BF for 3 hr, with folds at 20 min intervals until it had enough strength. Bulk retard at 38°F for to 40°F dough temp. Shape direct from retard, counter proof for 45 min and bake.

The two on the left had 0.25% nutritional yeast added and the two on the right had 0.125%. There was a significant difference in extensibility from the beginning and both batches shaped without a pre-shaping step or rest. The 0.125% batch wanted to spring back a little but was easliy pursuaded to do what I asked. I will probably adopt the 0.25% nutritional yeast number when I want some increase in extensibility. Both batches were soft and tender when they went to the oven so I might try a batch with no counter proof just to see what difference it makes.  The other option is to put them back into the retarder at a little higher temp for a longer time so that they still handle well on the way to the oven.

There's been a fair amount of discussion in this thread about the benefits of a bulk retard and subsequent shaping vs. shaping either before retard or at some point during retard withe the shaped dough being placed back into retard again.

While not an exhaustive review of Mr. Hamelman's Bread, what I find is that he does not list retarding "any" dough that is employing commercial yeast alone.  They are listed as having a bench proof only.

The levain breads are a mixed bag of both bench proofing as well as retarding for about "half" of the entries.  Some do not mention retard in the methodology at all.  However, in no case is there any mention of retarding before shaping.  All formulae that I've seen so far will have the dough shaped prior to retard.

I'm not going to rewrite the passage from Bread, 2nd edition, page 146 here.  Rather to summarize, he writes that same  concept.  Breads can be retarded after shaping, with the bake delayed for up to 24 hours, and he states two reasons for doing so:

• Aid in structuring a bakery's production schedule.
• Changing the flavor and aroma characteristics of a bread.

I take no sides, as I've done both, although my own retard experience has me pulling the dough halfway through as mentioned above or, more recently, abiding by Mr. Hamelman's method of shaping prior to retard.  I also acknowledge the we've clearly discovered (MTloaf) that the Bouabsa dough is designed to be completely retarded prior to shaping.

As we've seen over and over, when it comes to bread baking, there are likely a hundred ways to do something right and a few hundred ways to do something wrong.  Everyone's own experience, technique, oven and kitchen helps inform us what may best meet our needs.

And there is always the opportunity to fine tune our experience to see whether applied changes work for each of us.  If not, then dial back.

All this talk about T65 T55 and T45 flours made me decide today to use some of my T55 (I think it is but I forgot to label it so it could be T65) flour that I bought when flour was hard to find here recently.  So I have another batch of three baguettes in bulk cold retard using Abel’s formula again.  Because of the irregular browning last time, I’ve increased the diastatic malt to 0.5% which is what I typically add to most of my sourdoughs.  I’ve also increased the hydration this time as I did a bassinage so the hydration is 72% rather than 70% the first time out.  I let it ferment to 30% rise and now will leave it in bulk cold retard until tomorrow morning when I’ll shape and bake before work.  So it will have had at least 18.5-19.5 hours of cold retard before it gets baked.  I decided not to add nutritional yeast because I wanted to repeat this with as few variables changed as possible to compare.

This time I took MTloaf's advice, and bumped up the hydration from 68% to 70%.  Other changes from 1st run.  Eliminated the NY, dropped my traditional 300 FFs down to 200  FFs still split by ~5 minutes at the halfway point. Shaped right out of BF, this run had a full retard time frame of about 14 hours.  

The dough was so easy to work with, and created no pushback.  Final shaping was a snap.  However, the first of the three was a bit of training wheels with slight barbell ends and little pitched middle.   The other two were just dandy.  Unfortunately, in my overcompensation from the prior run's runaway extensibility I did roll these a bit too short - 18 inches each, with barbell at 21 inches.  Muscle memory, still in the early stages of development, coincided with fear of over-lengthening them. 

All in all I'm pleased with the bake.  As best as my palate can recall, and the wife agrees with me, the NY run contributed a slightly bitter flat taste.  These seem "sweeter" and more enjoyable.  The crust is super thin and snaps when biting into.  Which I intend to do a lot more of before the next run!

Preheat at 480dF, bake at 460dF, 13 minutes of steam, 12 minutes after release and rotation, 2 minutes of venting.

As before 400g x 3, baked weight 320g.

my next bake will be the same, but I'll be scaling back the WW to 5%, maintain the 5% rye, and let it rip.

I've been doing a lot of baking- just not posting. I don't have a tremendous amount of experience and have a lot of ground work to cover. It might be easier to go to another format but I'm quite hooked. I've played with fava and NY and hydration. And shaping before/after retard. And came to the same conclusions as everyone else.

Finally figured out my oven configuration. Fibrament stone with additional layer of quarry tile on the bottom most rack, loaf pan with lava rocks next to it for presteam, baking pan on uppermost rack with lava rocks. Initial steam in bottom oven at 500. Move to upper oven to complete bake. The upper element in the bottom oven is killer and just not workable. Lots of ruined dough in the learning process.

I decided to put myself up against me. I went back to the original original formula and my original flour... and wanted to see what happened. I'm not displeased. My crumb is more even, my shaping is better, my bakes are more even. And I know a lot more in general.

Now...I'm ready to move onto the revised formula and maybe reduce the whole grains, work on BF times which might be hurting oven spring, scoring- partway through 14 loaves today narrowing it down.

Thanks all for sharing. It is fascinating.

For the record, Hamelman's Pain au Levain makes an extremely challenging hamburger bun. In case you were wondering.

One step forward, two steps back.  I think this is the theme of today’s bake for me.  I once again used Abel’s Baguette au Levain formula that Alfanso shared his formula for.  This is an almost all white flour (my starter is fed red fife so the only whole grain is in the starter At 1%) using a levain 9% PFF and 0.07% IDY.

I used what I believe to be T55 flour this time instead of AP.

I bulk fermented until 30% rise, then cold retarded the whole dough in bulk in the fridge at 2ºF for 18hr 45 mins.  Pre-shaped loosely, bench rested 10 mins then shaped.  This is where I ran into problems.  This dough was super extensible.  By the time I was ready to roll the shaped dough it was already at the maximal length of my baking steel.  Trying to roll it a little bit to get a better final shape made it too long.  Once placed in the oven the ends were touching the oven’s back wall or got folded under the parchment paper and under itself.  At this point I should have side loaded them as the baking steel has more width than depth.  I’ll have to do this next time to allow me to better shape my baguettes.

Still no ears : (.  More practice is needed.  I also note that they are still not browning evenly.  I wonder if adding the malt to the flour and mixing then before autolyse would more evenly distribute it and result in more even browning?  Oh I also increase diastatic malt to 0.5%.

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OK the outside wasn’t much to look at, but the crumb, wow, pretty open and lacy.  The dense areas at the ends are secondary to my squashing the ends when trying to fit them in the oven.  Squashed up against the back of the oven and the door compressing the crumb.  The crust is thin and crisp.  The crumb has that nice sheen, gelatinized without being gummy or wet.  I must do this again but get the shaping better and get some ears.

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This time no additives and the recipe done by the book. 500 gr Wheat Montana AP 75% water, it  scales out to three 18 inch batons at 290 gr each What I learned today was I need to put more tension in the pre-shape to keep them from stretching so easily. They were weak in the middle and too thin before trying to roll them out. I am going to try rolling an oval and resting them seam down next time. Baked at 480 with steam from above. The new stone is better on the rack a notch higher.

Pleased with the crust and crumb but I need to work on getting back to a uniform shape and figure out why the ends are lifting off the stone so much.

The  crumb had a yellowish color that happens now and then, which I think means the carotenoids are still in there and have been not worked out of the dough from too much kneading. Doc will probably want to weigh in on that one so I will just say they tasted good.

I know the community bakes are about testing and perfecting technique, but let’s not forget why we learn these tricks in the first place...

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5 baguettes pruned to ‘epi format. Waiting for the friends...

Phil

I've been holding this back for 3 more bakes today but it seems to relate at the moment. I'm working on a sourdough baguette with a very open crumb. As part of that, I've been looking at the handling on shape and preshape of the dough on a higher hydration dough.

Bake 1- A Heavy Handed Accident

This was back during the fava/NY run. I had some scraps that I kneaded together lightly and then formed a baguette. Baked to see what happened.

Bake 2- Intentional

75% hydration with some wheat/rye. One half of the dough was lightly stretched and gently rolled as preshape. Shape essentially was a light stretch of the dough- but it was so extensible it did it itself. The other half was pounded flat, folded over on itself, rolled tightly as preshape. Shape was pounded flat again, rolled tightly while compressing, lengthened by pressing on the dough.

There appears to be some negative effect on the crumb but would need to be repeated to be certain no other factors were involved.

Bake 3

75% Hydration, all all-purpose. Same handling procedure as bake 2. Appears to be a strong correlation between handling and crumb structure.

Between bakes 2 and 3, 2 had a less extensible dough and some negative effect with greater handling. Bake 3 was more extensible and had a definitive benefit from additional handling.

I have 3 more bakes that I plan to do today on 75% hydration dough and will be testing the handling again. I've dabbled a bit at 60% and 68%  At this point, I theorize that as the extensibility increases, the amount of handling needed for an open crumb increases, as well.

I don't feel this is confirmed yet. I'll post when I have completed the other 3 bakes.

I'm very open to input and ideas on this line of thought.

A few problems, but no missteps.  The formula is as easy as it gets and I've baked it probably 15 times in the past after I had first figured it out way back.  So let's look at the balance sheet.

I was considering dividing and shaping the dough before retard but very quickly abandoned that because there was no way it would be compliant in any way.  Into the retarder it went. 

I pulled the dough about halfway through retard for shaping before I went to sleep last night.  The dough felt typical Bouabsa good in my hands, the pre-shaping was a dream and for the most part rolled out okay - at about 21 inches long.  However, and I can't recall this from before, the dough exhibited elasticity and sprung back on the couche to 19 inches where it remained though the bake.

The dough was slightly sticky to final shape, and the shaping was better than last bake but still needs cleanup.   Still getting accustomed to rolling out these longer thinner batons.

Pulled from retard about 45 minutes before bake, which is not my standard M.O., and they released from the couche fairly easily.  But the top was sticky and adhered to the hand peel, and had to be gently eased off it.  I lightly floured the tops of the other two and they released from the hand peel easily.

Scoring was also a surprisingly sticky affair, but with swifter scores became less problematic.  Maybe I just forgot what this dough feels like, or I'm unused to scoring dough that had final bench top proof.  No problem loading or baking - 480dF - 13 minutes with steam, 10 minutes after rotating and 3 minutes of venting.

I love the dark color and incredible snap of the crust, but it was thicker than anticipated.  The scores are disappointing, inconsistent, and tell me that there's more learning (as if learning ever ends) to do on these longer batons than I'm used to.

Crumb is creamy colored and fairly open and delicate and has that classic sweet Bouabsa flavor.  

I'm wondering whether the darker vs. thicker crust is a tradeoff.    I'm not disappointed in the bake as a whole, but I had hoped for a better experience and not all that happy with the scoring.  

The Brooklyn, now Los Angeles, Dodgers had a saying at the end of losing seasons - "wait till next year". Well I won't wait that long before my next bake.  That's for sure.

I was halfway though a baguette when I remembered to slice one open for the crumb shot.  These are addictive little puppies!

325gx3 baguettes

Can somebody explain to me the rationale for picking a retard time longer than what it takes for the dough to stabilize at the target temperature? Other than for scheduling the oven.