This Community Bake (CB) will feature Jeffrey Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse bread. It is a full flavored bread with no sour flavor. The dough is leavened with a Raisin Yeast Water (RYW). And raisins and walnuts are used to enhance the flavor of the bread. Abe has been after me for a long time to try this bread. And after finally getting around to baking it I can fully appreciate his enthusiasm. The flavor is unique and I'm certain that all who bake it will agree...
For those that may not be familiar with our Community Bakes, check out the top paragraphs in this LINK, for a little background.
Jeffrey Hamelman has given us permission to post his copyrighted formula and instructions. The Swiss Farmhouse bread is taken from his book, BREAD: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes (second edition), by Jeffrey Hamelman. Copyright 2013. Published by John Wiley & Sons. If you don't own this book, it is an all time favorite on TFL and definitely one to consider.
For those that don't have access to the book, the formula and instructions will be posted on the Community Bake.
Since this particular bread utilizes Yeast Water (YW) for the leaven, it seems best to host the bake it 2 parts. Part 1 will detail the instructions to make your own YW using only Raisins and water. It is much more simple to make than a sourdough starter and is generally mature and ready to use in 5 days or less. Everyone, including bakers that use commercial yeast are encouraged to participate. NOTE - the actual bake (Part 2) is scheduled to begin Friday, August 9.
By-the-way - any kind of yeast water will do...
Once your yeast water is active see THIS LINK for the formula and instructions to bake the bread.
Instructions to make a Raisin Yeast Water Starter, by Jeffrey Hamelman.
At least 5 days before the bake, soak 74 grams (2.6 ounces) of raisins in 179 grams (6.3 ounces) of cholrine free water. Organic raisin are preferred. Any additives or preservatives in the raisins should avoided. Cover and leave at warm room temperature (75-80F). White mold normally begins to cover the surface of the raisins, an indication that the liquid is ready. Occasionally, however, no mold is visible. Once the ferment starts to actively bubble and the smell is sweet and has a tangy aroma, it should be ready and the dough mixing process can begin. If your YW is ready before you want to bake, it can be left out on the counter for a few days, or stored in the refrigerator for much longer storage. NOTE - YW is not nearly as finicky as a sourdough starter and requires very low maintenance. Like sourdough starters, some have kept their YW for years.
I am not an authority on YW, but those that are, will be available to answer your questions.
Abe sent me a link for a good teaching video about making a Raisin Yeast Water (RYW). https://youtu.be/vcfuUtbnteY
If you are new to YW, be prepared to have a blast...
Danny
The recipe then goes onto the first build which says 6 to 8 hours or until visibly risen. The first build is, I believe, just to get the yeasts nice and active from yeast water to a pre dough stage. Then there's the second build and we can call this the levain etc. I think ignore the 6 - 8 hours and just keeping warm for long enough till the yeasts kick into action. Going from your last experience start it in the morning and expect an all day ferment ready for the second 12-14 hour levain. This should bring you to a good time for starting the main dough in the morning of the next day. Hi hurry!
All that is providing your yeast water matured well. I think this time don't leave it to chance. Track down 100% organic raisins or other dried fruit (dried mulberries worked wonders when I tried them). Then there's the water.... Either used boiled and cooled or leave some out for long enough to get rid of the additives (whatever they pollute it with nowadays). Then put it together and try to find a warm place. Needs to be warmer than sourdough starter. Then don't use it till all the fruit is floating and it's fizzing.
Sounds like a plan?
I did use organic raisins and filtered water. The yeast water had the raisins floating and fizzing. And I let it rise for hours and hours. It was a complete dud for me.
If I try this again, I’ll revive the yeast water I have sitting in the fridge rather than play with making a new one. Unfortunately it won’t be for a little while.
I did a bake (not Hamelman's) with apple yeast water a month ago and was disappointed with the result; not a brick, but a bland flavour and a very solid crumb.
I think the key must be to ensure your fruit water is very active before proceeding. Maybe raisins will be better because they have concentrated sugars to get the starter fermentation moving.
Lance
Hope you're trying it again though. I've always found this bread to be very flavoursome. It's not tangy like sourdough can be but has that something extra different to normal yeasted breads.
I might try it again for the sake of the CB. For the non-purist, I think a sachet of Sacch. bayanus aka Mangrove Jack's wine yeast will give even better results!
Lance
I have discovered that the top of my hot water heater is 85 degrees and a good place to set the the jar.
Sounds like you've found a perfect place. Nice one.
and saved a few Concord grapes from the jaws of some hungry deer. Pit, peel and 5 squished grapes got put underwater and set out on the porch 28°C Thursday. We are rocking yeast water in Arkansas!
Mini
That's a fruit cocktail yeast water :)
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/mango-skin#drawbacks
Um.... wonder if it isn't too late to just scrape the mango off the inside of the skins and chuck the skins. Think I better start over. :(
?
got some organic raisins from Mom ...and found a few more grapes on Dad's vines. Back to Ground Zero. :)
I saw on a youtube video with Beeshum Soogrum that Theresa Greenway makes the comment that mango, figs, and pineapple can breakdown gluten. Figs surprised me considering how many recipes there out there for fig yeast water and breads with fig.
I know a lot of people make starter with pineapple juice, but since that is generally pasturized, is the enzyme that breaks down gluten broken down I wonder?
Nothing exciting to show, but I've started mine too.
!
I'm beginning to see some tiny bubbles. Day 2
(Aug 5) ...and my raisins are all gassy and floating already. I stirred it because there was so much amber colour on the bottom. Must be the Concord grape skins tinting the water.
(Aug 6) ...too hot today, brought them inside during the day and put them outside for the night. Cloudyish.
(Aug 7). ...smelling a little yeasty. So half of a very ripe pear got peeled and cut into tiny pieces and dropped into jar where they quickly sank under the floating grapes. Wow, burst of bubbling and yeasty-light wine aromas and that evervescense nose tickling CO2 like air when trying to sniff the open jar. Keeping it inside at 76°F today. Think I'm in business. :)
supertime:
Image
Day three. Raisins are suspended slightly, not quite floating.
Well, this morning I was greeted with mold - on the raisins and crawling up the side of the jar. No fizzing. No sign of anything good happening. I tossed it all. I was using bottled spring water and boxed organize raisins in a freshly washed (dishwasher) mason jar.
Leave soap residue? Handwash and rinse thorooughly (perhaps carefully scald it out too) and use boiled water which has been left to cool.
Washing by dishwasher supposedly gets dishes cleaner. Perhaps the room isn't warm enough. I'll try it one more time tomorrow, but if that doesn't work, then that's it.
Day one of raisin water just started this evening. Debra Wink's notes are a great complement to Hamelman's instructions. Thanks!
Gavin
12 hrs - slight bubble activity already.
I just this morning had the latex glove blow off the top of my jar. I am following Debra’s information about fermenting without oxygen. If your cap is tight the jar may build excessive pressure.
I would like to use an airlock, but because of its height it won’t fit in my proofer.
Thanks for the advice/warning. I'll unscrew the lid and just leave it loose. Cheers.
Raisins floating. No fizz or sound. No mould. Happy so far.
I’m not sure how hot is too hot, but I know that YW LOVE heat.
Playing it safe at 25°C (77°F), about mid-range of the ideal I believe. Yes, it is higher than I would normally proof pre-ferments.
I have matured a YW in 3 days @ 82F.
I’ve read different high temps, so not sure how high is too high. Some say mid 90s, but never went that high.
I believe mid 80s is probably fine.
Day 4: Checked this morning and nice bubbles and fizz sound.
Checked this afternoon and noticed the first signs of white mould. Hoping that it is white mould and not the dreaded grey.
Checked this morning and the white mould has covered the entire surface. Scraped off the mould and drained off the raisin water. Mixed build one. I'm only making one 680 gram loaf, so my build one is:
My first build is a total failure. No rise after 7 hours. Dead. Deceased. Kaput. Lifeless. Inanimate. :(
I'm not giving up. I will try again using organic raisins.
Can I recommend something? I know Hamelman and therefore this CB call for RYW. But making another YW wouldn't be a felony. I suggest you grab a plastic bag and hit the streets until you find a fruiting plant. Any fruiting plant. A real "fruit" plant might (might) be best, like an apple tree. But any fruit from the wild will certainly harbor bugs of all sorts and very likely the ilk that would serve this application. As I told Danny, my first YW was made from crabapple prunings.
Excellent (judging from the resulting breads' crumbs) YWs made from black tea have been blogged about here. In fact, I'm going to relieve one of our ornamental Camellia bushes of some of its leaves today and see what they inoculate honeyed water with. They aren't Camelia sinensis (the tea species) but I'm going with the assumption that the bugs don't make strong distinctions between species of their Camellia hosts. And while I'm at it, I may pluck some apple, pear and apricot leaves from the orchard. Why not.
Yes, there are some poisonous berries on ornamental shrubs in commerce. But you have to cut or chew them open to release the toxins. Making YW from them, intact, would be no more dangerous than rubbing against them as you pass. Not a worry, to me at least.
I tend to choose the path of self-reliance whenever it's available. Not for everyone but satisfying when it's the right one.
Tom
While I like your idea of taking clippings from the wild, and while you think it's no more dangerous than brushing past poisonous berries, i've noticed (in all my yeast waters) that the fruit ineivtably splits open and dissolves somewhat.
For my ease of mind please stick to 100% edible plants.
I totally get that Abe. Hard advice to argue with. But as a (retired) laboratory biologist/botanist, I tend to think in terms of concentrations more than most. There are toxins in the world that are dangerous/lethal in picomolar concentrations (some mushrooms, venoms, ricin). But these are few and legendary. And consider that in a YW, any undesirables will be diluted (never propagated -- concentrations headed only south) by subsequent refreshment of the brew and very likely metabolized by the bugs we're aiming to culture. That reasoning successfully puts to rest any qualms about poisoning myself with such an experiment. YMMV and I totally understand that. Last thing we want to do is make bread baking a life-threatening pastime.?
Now where's my copy of Stalking the Wild Asparagus now that I need it...
Tom
I did have a look at your profile to learn you're a biologist and botanist! Here i am arguing with an expert.
So i'm changing my post to only YOU! should be doing this :)
I'm looking forward to your really wild yeast water bread.
Is it correct to assume that plant leaves, blooms and fruit have the necessary bugs to make a YW?
If this is correct, then I assume that any fruit with sugars will ferment with water only, but blooms (buds) and leaves will require sugar and water for fermentation. Have I got this right?
Is the biofilm that sits atop these things floating around in the air and just happens to find rest on them? It is not a matter of any attraction, but merely happenstance? So, I’m asking if any fruit, bud, or leaf, ect. in the wild collects more bugs than other substances.
I love learning...
Danny
Let's not say it's "correct" to assume that Danny, because biodiversity will always present the unexpected exception. But yes, I have no reason to assume that raisins and apples are special in this regard. Microbes need sugar and fruits (and some species' roots) are nature's #1 source. So that's where to look for them. But it was really the reports of excellent YWs from tea leaves that woke me up to the fact that other plant parts have metabolizable sugars, albeit at lower concentrations than fruits, available to colonizing microbes. However, plants have not surprisingly evolved all kinds of defenses against theft of their hard-won carbs by microbes - waxy leaf epidermal coatings for example. And Camellia has very waxy leaves (preventing water loss, making them desirable in gardens here in water-starved California). How the bugs manage to harvest carbs from Camellia leaves is therefore a mystery to me. My upcoming experiment (if I ever get off my ass today in front of this laptop!) to harvest fresh Camellia leaves to innoculate a YW implicitly tests the hypothesis that tea YWs only work because the tea leaves acquire the relevant bacteria and yeast during the tea drying process. Fun to experiment.
Regarding happenstance origins of bugs on leaves, that's harder to know. Just like the question of where do our sd bugs come from when we start a culture. Just being answered by current research now! Insect feet? Wind? Rain? But those that end up populating leaves in countable numbers clearly have evolved to occupy that niche. So it's likely a mix of happenstance (stochastic events, as a biologist would say) and evolved adaptation (as a biologist would say :-).
Tom
Thank you Tom for the idea and information. I'll see what I can find that I can trust. I have some cumquats, limes and lemons, but not sure if they would be suitable. It's mid-winter here and not a lot of options.
Yes, I figured you'd be more limited this time of year down there. Kumquat levain has a certain exotic ring to it. Today I plucked a more mundane variety of fresh plant parts and their microbial passengers are now swimming -- and hopefully procreating -- in honey water. Time to put my m(h)oney where my mouth is.
Stay tooned and keep us posted!
Tom
Cheers, Gavin.
add some to it, about a teaspoon or two. Honey is great for making yeast water.
+1 for Mini's honey suggestion.
I can't imagine making yeast water without it. But I included a "honey only" control for the "YW From Diverse Garden Plant Surfaces" experiment started today. Who knows, honey may contain the appropriate bugs for raising bread but they're just dormant in it due to honey's extreme osmolality. Dilute it and they may wake up and propagate.
Tom
Hi Mini and Tom,
I was wondering about that having read many of the ideas coming forward here. I have some pure honey here from a farm nearby. I add it in now while still on day one.
Cheers, Gavin
Good news. My kumquat water was ready yesterday (day 4), nice and bubbly. I had to leave it until this morning (day 5) to mix the first build. 8 hours later, the build was light and puffy, so I proceeded to mix the second build. I was pleased that I'm on track according to Hamelman's instructions.
I am quietly confident on this occasion but cautious given my earlier failure.
Thanks to Tom and Mini for the ideas to use other fruit and honey. I've ordered some organic raisins for future experimentation.
Cheers.
Gavin
That sounds familiar on many fronts. Anyway, did my first build just now: 50g yeast water with 78g organic ww and was pretty stiff at 64% hydration so I tossed in another teaspoon of YW and kneaded it in. Thought being, it may not rise if too stiff. Gotta find the bread flour if there is any, reporting from Mom's kitchen and she's playing bridge. Dad (broke leg July 1st, turned 94 Monday) is coming home tomorrow. Now to wait and see what the build does and how long it takes to get there. Each first build may be different so keep watching it. Seven hours isn't a lot of time. My experience tells me this stage varies esp. with temperature, flour and hydration differences. :)
Mini, I need to add the flour type in the initial post. I asked Jeffrey about the flour. He considers bread flour any flour with a protein level of 11.5%. So in the case of King Arthur, their All Purpose is considered Bread Flour in this case.
Danny
I’ll have to get back with Jeffrey to confirm the percentage, but it is either 11.5 or 11.7%.
Here is Jeffrey’s reply -
“Bread flour is the term the Bread Bakers Guild uses for flour with a protein content of about 11.5 to 11.8. Unfortunately this is also what most people refer to as all purpose.“
We're looking for "visible expansion". If warm enough you should see enough activity. Second build becomes a lot more active and one will see significant expansion. It is low hydration and only 6 hours for the first build but by all means leave it longer untill you're confident there's life in the preferment. Yeast water often surprises I find.
I experienced exactly what Abe described. Here are some photos of the stiff levain build. The second build really takes off.
Is for "signs of life" and second build is "time for business" :)
Nice one Dan.
#1 yeast water build isn't a weird bubble or separation! It's a brown colored level mark! Ah! So it doubled in volume! I was trying to figure the size of the container and what that blob was. Finally got enough coffee in my system and/or just marked the level on my own first build... Mine smells good but not rising yet. :)
Found some good Organic white wheat flour, it will have to do.
Mini, I can’t remember for sure, but my regular practice is to ferment starters and levains warm. Ranges va4y from 78-84F.
I suspect a fairly warm ferment for the images above, at the very least 78F.
This has been my experience as well. First build can be crazy, but more often than not is underwhelming at first then takes off rather abruptly.
76°F is what #1 build took to get to this (photo) and it could use a little more time to get all bubbly. Want to time my dough mixing to around 9am Friday so I better get on to build #2. In two hours it'll be 9 pm, that sounds about right.
Friday: 7 am and the rise is falling (76°F) so for me, this dough must have finished the #2 build in about 9-10 hours. So I put it into the fridge until mixing up the final dough. The above pictured WW #1 build got bigger bubbles and tripled with the extra 1.5 hrs before going into build #2. I think the whole wheat (instead of the bread flour) has something to do with speeding things up.
Have you tried this recipe before? Can't wait to hear your final verdict.
Mini, I keep your suggestion in mind for my second try. I've already dumped the raisin water and will start again.
Cheers, Gavin
The preservative I would expect to be used with raisins is sulphur dioxide. Not only would this make growth of natural yeasts difficult, they would probably all have been killed off already by the SO2 during storage.
HOWEVER, SO2 is an allergen and, at least in the EU, must be declared on the label. So I would suggest that if sulphur dioxide is NOT declared on the pack label, then it is NOT present.
Lance
SO2 is a strong anti-microbial but bacteria is more easily inhibited by it whereas yeast have a better tolerance and a specific mechanism to deal with it. Still, large enough doses will stop yeast and it is regularly used in this way.
Under EU law labelling for SO2 is only required where it exceeds 10g/Kg or 10g/L.
EDIT. That's 10mg/Kg or 10mg/L. Thanks Lance
You might want to check your units, Michael - I believe SO2 declaration is required above 10mg/kg, ie 10ppm.
Lance
haha. Yes milligrams! facepalm!
Cheers Lance. Still you get the picture. Only exceeding thresholds does labelling come into play.
Debbie is like E.F. Hutton. When she talks everybody listens <LOL> For those that don’t know, Debra Wink is our resident microbiologist.
I noticed that she just posted about Yeast Water. The post is extremely timely, it should be of interest to those that have a technical interest. How I wished I had the brain power to comprehend it all. I will read and re-read this article many times with the hope that something new will be gleaned with each reading...
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60897/raisin-yeast-water
I'm too damn lazy to join in the fun here but I'm rooting for all of you from the sidelines. Great idea! Hamelman is fantastic.
9 hours in and they're beginning their ascent to the top. Some are floating, some midway and some still on the bottom. Lot's of little airbubbles around the raisins. On schedule but I might need to do the first build on Thursday night then refrigerate come morning to do the second build Friday night. Hope that works!
but don’t throw away liquid when I refresh. I keep it as reserve liquid. seems to work well.
Leslie
Hope all is well.
I'm thinking that if it's been in the fridge for a long time, it needs refreshment and you haven't used any, then like starter, if you don't throw any way one will be making an awful lot. I suppose on can use it up like discard and use it as hydration in the dough and flavour. I never ran into this issue as like sourdough starter I never kept a whole jar full, just a little at any one time. That's when I used to keep one. Now I just make yeast water as I need it. I'm not keeping this one going. It'll be ready in a day or two and i'll use what I need for the recipe. But if storing then yes! with the fruit.
What I might need to do though is do the first dough build and refrigerate that for 12 hours before going onto the second build. DO you think it'll be as strong?
I try to refresh YW monthly and just use the discard as part of the liquid in what ever I am baking. I dont keep a lot - maybe 200 ml. I dont see why the dough would be weaker - it would just need warming up surely? I will be home again in 10 days, greatly jet lagged but will try to do this bake after that. I hope my YW is surviving un checked ? as i said earlier, it does need a fresh feed and warmth after its sojourn in the fridge but then works a treat. ?
These messages about saving and feeding yeast waters are particularly interesting. While cleaning out the pantry this morning, I discovered I had accidentally made vinegar.
This is a bottle of apple yeast water from sometime last year, which I guess I put on the shelf and forgot. It smells nice and apple like, but wow strong...it'll put hair on your chest! I guess I didn't know at the time that if you just fed it more fruit it would continue on and be happy.
Selling 'Apple Yeast Water Vinegar'.
Don't give me any ideas! Actually I will be making most of my apples this year into cider for the first time, so...after cider is vinegar.
I'm going to freeze the pulp to keep the yeast water going. So many possibilities. How many products can come from just 1 apple
How different is Apple Yeast Water to Apple Cider? Allow your Apple Yeast Water to ferment naturally with added sugar to up the alcohol percentage and do you get naturally fermented Apple Yeast Water Cider?
Only that the cider is just fermented juice and a little sugar with no added water.
But the science is the same, no? You have the science of making YW so it can be applied to Cider. Are you going to try and aim for a nturally fermented cider? Perhaps using the yeasts from your Apple Yeast Water to start the fermentation? I wonder if that would work.
The question that comes to mind is if I were to use the fermented juice would more apple flavor come through in bread?
I'm going to try both. A batch of naturally occurring yeast and a batch of commercial cider yeast. I'm actually meeting with a friend and brewer that is taking me to a cider tasting to find out what I like. I have enough apples to have both going. Commercially, all the juice is pasteurized and then the yeast are introduced back in. Far more control of course, but it's not very adventurous! haha...
Julie, you are quite the photographer. Your composition, colors, texture, and depth of field are beautiful! Who would think that an orange/yellow liquid an a bottle could look so nice?
I am enjoying your photography...
Danny
Thank you dan! That is so kind of you. ❤️
I am trying two ways - one using champagne grapes and the other using dried organic mango. I think the mango is more active.
When I read this on my iphone I thought that was kombucha scoby on the left. ?
But it's not pictured :)
Questions, for the experts. (Ms. Wink) for instance.
1. Would these dried figs work? I happen to have them on hand.
2. What would be my best choice in organic fresh fruit to use?
Thanks for any help. As for the procedure and such I will read, read read before I bore you all the questions.
0. Hmm. I think I'd call it a substrate if we're getting all sciencey :)
1. I think others here have used figs, but I haven't worked with them, so I'll leave it to someone else to advise you on that. If it were me, I think I'd and save them for the add-ins.
2. Grapes are a natural, but any fruit that can be turned into wine. You may need to add some sort of sugar, depending on the fruit. Grapes have enough on their own.
Best,
dw
I may take your advice and use the figs for the dough. I have to rethink about the "substrates" smile....
BTW, it was your pineapple juice method that got me started on the sourdough journey! Poor Slow-Moe, has be though some changes, trials and tribulations, yet all these years later here we are!
Sorbate as a preservative. Zooming in on the package. Anything else?
I knew it was in there I took a chance anyway. Dates are not doing a darn thing!
I am going to document every step of growing Yeast water in my Fresh Loaf blog. Be sure to check back daily for the latest scoop!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60915/raisindate-yeast-waterday-day-step-step
Can yeast water be kept going like a regular starter once you have made it?
just use it and save a little to pour over some fruit and water.
My progress so far. I'm teetering between skeptical and hopeful.
Day 1 -- Combined 75 g organic raisins + 180 g filtered tap water (jar washed, rinsed w/ vinegar, then boiling water)
D1 + 10 hours -- bubbles on the raisins
Image
D2 (26 hours) -- all raisins floating, no mold
D3 (51 hours) -- covered in white mold. Removed mold. Smells sweet and musty, not fizzing.
My kitchen has been very warm this week which has made this a much more exciting venture than I had anticipated!
Do I just let it keep going? Feed it? Appreciate any thoughts. I am going to pick some crab apples and try to do an apple yeast water as well.
JBT, this is taken right out of Jeffrey Hamelman’s book. “White mold normally begins to cover the surface of the raisins, an indication that the liquid is ready. Occasionally, however, no mold is visible. Once the ferment starts to actively bubble and the smell is sweet and has a tangy aroma, it should be ready and the dough mixing process can begin. If your YW is ready before you want to bake, it can be left out on the counter for a few days, or stored in the refrigerator for much longer storage.”
But I don’t have any experience with mold of any kind.
Danny
What I'd do: Rubber spatula in one hand, soda straw in the other. Gently slide the spatula down the inside of the jar, nudging the moldy floaters toward the middle while keeping the spatula tip against the glass. Holding it there, slip the straw into the clearing you've created at the edge and suck up as much as you can (without drinking any -- but no fear, it won't poison you). Then squirt the straw's contents into a jar previously prepared with water + dissolved honey. Cover, shake and wait. ? that the desired bugs will outgrow any white mold stowaways.
Tom
Michael Wilson posted a nice article dealing with mold and YW. See it here.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60927/avoiding-mould-yeast-water#comment-439013
Also I think Debra claims that reducing the PH in the YW will eliminate the mold. I have never had mold problems and have no idea why not. I do ferment very warm, but doubt that is the cure.
Thanks for pointing to that; really great information!
I've skimmed off a bit more mold today. So, I've chuck out most of the "old" keeping some to inoculate a fresh jar and will be careful about the headspace. I'll see what happens. :)
I think you've misunderstood Danny. I've even said elsewhere that mold is not inhibited by low pH. Mold is happy to grow on acidic things like pineapples, lemons and other low-pH fruits. I'm sure you've witnessed it in your own refrigerator once or twice :)
I find that if the pH of the water combined with dark (unsulfured) raisins is 3.5 – 4.0, bubbling is often evident within a few days at 75-80°F with no sign of mold.
This was simply an observation of association, not a claim of causation. There are other possible reasons for this, but they are related more to the timing --- fermentation commencing without delay.
One possibility is that once the production of CO2 starts, it helps flush out oxygen-containing air. As Michael pointed out oxygen invites mold. And for that reason, I ferment in a container that vents pressure out without allowing air in --- a canning jar with two-piece lid (band + seal), which is perfectly designed for this. The two-piece lid screwed down 'finger-tight' is a one-way valve. If I have to use a jar with too much head space, I have been known to use the jar attachment on my vacuum sealer to pull air out. Michael's suggestion of the balloon is a tried and true one too, a trick used in fermenting pickles and other vegetables.
Keeping it warm helps fermentation commence faster (if there are no other unmet needs standing in the way, like pH out of range).
There may be other factors, like perhaps some of the fermentation products themselves could be mold inhibitors. This would also depend on fermentation commencing without delay.
As always, the devil is in the details, and there are a lot of details to consider :)
My best,
dw
I’m glad I’ve never had mold, but wondered why not. So, PH has nothing to do with inhibiting mold. Maybe it is because I ferment the YW at warm temps, causing the fermentation to take place earlier than most. Also the PH reads <4.
The image below shows fermentation taking place at 44 hours. Initially all oxygen was purged out of the jar.
My second go with the RYW was more successful with no mold, a sweet/sour winery smell, and audible fizz. Based on my observations I think the biggest factor in my mold problem was oxygen in the jar, although I changed too many factors to be certain. High temps may have been a problem for me only in that, I think it is likely I missed catching the fermented YW and the spent grapes were left too long floating at the top of the water.
On the second try, taking everyone's good advice, especially mwilson's re: headspace, I got good results in 24 hours by inoculating the new batch w/ the old, adding a tiny splash of rice vinegar, covering the surface with plastic wrap, and having the luck to have temps in the 70Fs. The proof will be in the proof, of course. I've just mixed my first build so I await results.
oops. See above
Yay! We have lift off. On cue for a weekend bake. Started this on Monday evening.
EDIT: Looked really good from the outside but when I opened the lid I did find white "mould" on top. But is it mould? Didn't smell like mould. In fact my yeast water smells healthy. It was a white fluff on top of skin. I noticed that my yeast water over the last 3 days had been forming a skin like boiling milk does. The only thing I can think of is that while I've always sourced 100% organic dried fruit until now, this time I made do with organic but with some added oil. While the skin had been minimal till tonight and while the yeast water seemed less active, today it suddenly burst into action with lots of bubbles and all the signs of a healthy yeast water. However it now had formed a complete skin with white fluff on top. Very easy to skim off and it came off all together. So what I've done it taken out all the raisins, discarded all but one tablespoon of yeast water, added fresh raisins and topped up with fresh water. I'm not worried and if the yeast water was healthy it'll mature over the next 24 hours. Still in time for a weekend bake.
Looks super, Abe! What is your ferment temp?
Since the raisins are floating are you going to be replacing the raisins soon?
Interesting observation and have replaced them already.
It is warm and humid but not actually sure exactly. About 30°C?
If it looks like yeast yeast water, reacts like yeast water and behaves like yeast water then it is yeast water.
Using one tablespoon of the yeast water to inoculate a completely fresh batch of raisins and water it has matured in under 24 hours. Exactly what a healthy yeast water should do.
Arrived home to find all the raisins floating and the mixture bubbling and thus time no suspicious looking growth. Everything seems to be 100% a ok!
Brings in to question whether it was mould the first time.
Everything ready to go, Dan.
Abe, I tried 1 tablespoon YW in a new mix and it didn’t work well for me. No idea why not.
I built a new YW Wednesday at 6PM and 44 hours later it is producing gas. And after on 44 hours the raisins are floating. Is it possible all of the sugars are already depleted, requiring more?
See THIS LINK for the image discussed.
Is that if the raisins are still floating there is life in it. I can't imagine it would mature in under two days then go kaput straight away. If the raisins are floating and the mixture is bubbling it's got active yeasts. And even when the raisins begin to sink that's when you need to refresh with fresh raisins and water plus a tablespoon of yeast water as a nudge in the right direction. The yeast water should be good for a few days or refrigerate it to last much longer.