This Community Bake (CB) will feature Jeffrey Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse bread. It is a full flavored bread with no sour flavor. The dough is leavened with a Raisin Yeast Water (RYW). And raisins and walnuts are used to enhance the flavor of the bread. Abe has been after me for a long time to try this bread. And after finally getting around to baking it I can fully appreciate his enthusiasm. The flavor is unique and I'm certain that all who bake it will agree...
For those that may not be familiar with our Community Bakes, check out the top paragraphs in this LINK, for a little background.
Jeffrey Hamelman has given us permission to post his copyrighted formula and instructions. The Swiss Farmhouse bread is taken from his book, BREAD: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes (second edition), by Jeffrey Hamelman. Copyright 2013. Published by John Wiley & Sons. If you don't own this book, it is an all time favorite on TFL and definitely one to consider.
For those that don't have access to the book, the formula and instructions will be posted on the Community Bake.
Since this particular bread utilizes Yeast Water (YW) for the leaven, it seems best to host the bake it 2 parts. Part 1 will detail the instructions to make your own YW using only Raisins and water. It is much more simple to make than a sourdough starter and is generally mature and ready to use in 5 days or less. Everyone, including bakers that use commercial yeast are encouraged to participate. NOTE - the actual bake (Part 2) is scheduled to begin Friday, August 9.
By-the-way - any kind of yeast water will do...
Once your yeast water is active see THIS LINK for the formula and instructions to bake the bread.
Instructions to make a Raisin Yeast Water Starter, by Jeffrey Hamelman.
At least 5 days before the bake, soak 74 grams (2.6 ounces) of raisins in 179 grams (6.3 ounces) of cholrine free water. Organic raisin are preferred. Any additives or preservatives in the raisins should avoided. Cover and leave at warm room temperature (75-80F). White mold normally begins to cover the surface of the raisins, an indication that the liquid is ready. Occasionally, however, no mold is visible. Once the ferment starts to actively bubble and the smell is sweet and has a tangy aroma, it should be ready and the dough mixing process can begin. If your YW is ready before you want to bake, it can be left out on the counter for a few days, or stored in the refrigerator for much longer storage. NOTE - YW is not nearly as finicky as a sourdough starter and requires very low maintenance. Like sourdough starters, some have kept their YW for years.
I am not an authority on YW, but those that are, will be available to answer your questions.
Abe sent me a link for a good teaching video about making a Raisin Yeast Water (RYW). https://youtu.be/vcfuUtbnteY
If you are new to YW, be prepared to have a blast...
Danny
Today, I plan to start a new Raisin Yeast Water (RYW). I have a healthy RYW in the refrigerator, but wanted to photograph and document my experience with the process. I followed Jeffrey’s instruction to the letter.
Information to be posted as it becomes available.
I covered the container with a paper towel to allow some air flow. It is also recommended to shake or stir the jar a few times a day to aerate the mixture. See Debra’s comment below pertaining to aeration. I took advance of a proofer and set it to 80F. I have matured a YW in 3 days by keeping it at 84F, though. If it is warm outside you could keep it there during the day. YW loves warmth...
Update - I just learned that YW does don’t require oxygen. I am told the YW is best without oxygen, so yesterday I changed jars to a smaller size with the idea that there would be less head room for oxygen. A latex glove was placed over the top to seal and also since it expands, it can inflate to accommodate the fermentation gas. After covering the jar opening, the glove was depressed to purge out most of the remaining oxygen.
The Image below was taken 24hr after replacing the jar and installing the glove. It took 2 1/2 days @ 80F using organic raisins to ferment a mature starter. Raisins are floating and it is bubbling aggressively and producing gas...
YW success = organic raisins + good water + warm temps (super important for speedy development).
How I wished scoring and open crumb was just as easy... <LOL>
Update - after fermenting for 72hr (3 days) the raisins have been exhausted. They are all floating at the top. Also notice how the glove is not very inflated. So the old raisins were taken out and replaced with a handful of fresh raisins. Note - I decided to add more water from the previous image because I wanted a larger YW.
Danny
See below for those that think Yeast Waters are difficult.
For full writeup see this link. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60872/community-bake-hamelmans-swiss-farmhouse-part-1-yeast-water#comment-438525
CAUTION - For those that don’t want to chase the rabbit down the hole, you may choose to skip this detour. YW is super easy to make. If you follow Jeffrey Hamelman’s instructions above, you will succeed. BUT, some of us can’t resist the intricate details :-D
Here is some helpful information that Debra just sent me. She gave permission to post.
//////////Begin Debra Wink//////////
... here are the tips from that article if you want to include them in your part 1. For what it's worth, I don't recommend shaking because 1) it isn't necessary, and 2) it tends to break apart the raisins which become fragile, and turn them into an unattractive sludge. The oxygen isn't necessary in this application as many believe, and reduces fermentation. Fermentation creates more flavor and aroma :)
Observations and Tips
Here is a compilation of tips and observations from my own experiences in coaxing raisins to ferment. After doing some homework on wine fermentation and a bit of experimenting, this is what I’ve learned; but it would be premature to assume that I have it all figured out, or that my approach is the only one. Feedback is welcome.
➤ If a blanket of gray mold appears on top, it is likely a sign of delayed fermentation. I find this can happen when the pH does not drop to 4.0 or below in the raisin water (more on that below). Gray mold (Botrytis cinerea), known as noble rot in its benevolent form, is also intimately associated with grapes. An ever-present opportunist that kills yeast when it runs amok. So if you see it, discard and start over. Other molds may or may not inhibit fermentation, but do skim them off immediately if you see them forming.
➤ pH seems to be an important factor in the initiation of raisin fermentation. I find that if the pH of the water combined with dark (unsulfured) raisins is 3.5 – 4.0, bubbling is often evident within a few days at 75-80°F with no sign of mold. As raisins soak, they infuse the water with their acids and other substances, which raise or lower the pH of the water over the course of several hours and buffer it to some degree. But if the pH starts out too high, fermentation might not begin on its own. Your pH will be influenced partly by the water, and largely by the acidity of the raisins themselves. As a point of reference, the pH of juice from freshly crushed wine grapes falls in the 2.8 – 4.0 range.
➤ Water varies quite a bit from one source to another. The pH of my tap water, even after softening and reverse osmosis, measures a little on the alkaline side. I’ve had hit-and-miss results with it on its own, depending upon the raisins, which themselves vary in pH. The bottled waters I tested all measured 4.5 and seem to be slightly more successful so far in my limited experience.
➤ The acid profile of grapes includes several organic acids, the top three being tartaric, malic and citric, in that order. I haven’t used tartaric or malic in this, but the tiniest pinch of citric acid – 0.02% sour salt, or perhaps even a little lemon or lime juice – may be enough to get the fermentation started if it seems stuck. I prefer ascorbic acid, although it takes a bit more. Try 0.5% of the initial water weight. If you’re worried about the effect these acids will have on the final dough, you can transfer a splash of this liquid over to inoculate a fresh batch of raisins and water after bubbling is underway. (This also works to perpetuate raisin water yeast and shorten the process to half as many days if you don’t want to start over each time. I don’t know whether you can keep it going and preserve its character indefinitely, as I have only played with it for a few weeks at a time.)
➤ Too much dead yeast (with its glutathione) will do strange things to your dough at mixing time. So watch that you don’t let cells pile up too thickly as white sediment on the bottom. Refrigerate before it reaches that point; or transfer a bit to a fresh batch of raisinwater to refresh and buy a little more time; and/or take care to decant the cloudy liquid from the top for your preferments. Failing that, dough issues seem to resolve somewhat with an extra fold or two, and longer fermentation time. – Debra Wink
//////////End Debra Wink//////////
Here is a link for an article Debra posted to the Advanced Topic Section of the forum. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60897/raisin-yeast-water
Here is a link with more information from Debbie for those that are technically inquisitive. http://www.junkomine.com/blog-/2015/2/21/anaerobic-without-oxgen-or-aerobic-with-oxgen-
So, with this new information in mind, should the YW container be tightly sealed, loosely sealed, or what?
"here are the tips from that article if you want to include them in your part 1. For what it's worth, I don't recommend shaking because 1) it isn't necessary, and 2) it tends to break apart the raisins"
Late to the party, but the shake, was suggested to me, to keep the fruit wet, the water and Acidity keep the fruit from growing mold. Which you are trying to avoid. It is also my understanding that Oxygen is part of aerobic fermentation vs anaerobic fermentation. Usually in wine, mead making and brewing, it's recommended in first few days to introduce oxygen, to get things going...but then unnecessary and unwanted to continue.
I usually open & close my bottles to degas and release some pressure, once a day. if any fruit is not overtaken by foam/fizz...I usually turn bottle over once. Reopen to let more gas out. Not a vigorous shake, so fruit stays intact. I store it in fridge when it's strong fizz, pressure...then after a week or so, i strain out the fruit and just keep the liquid in the fridge.
Night before i use, i mix a starter 1:1 water:flour
I love adding yeast water to my sourdough bakes for a little added oomph and lightness, so this will be my first loaves without any sourdough starter. And, I don't like to start a project by promptly ignoring the guidelines and doing my own thing, but......?
1) I have a garden full of fruit
2) I don't like raisins so never buy them. See point 1
I've been fermenting and using yeast water since my first plums started to ripen. Now I've got apples coming on, and at the end of September will come more grapes than I know what to do with.
On the left is a new apple yeast water I started on Monday which is almost ready. On the right is the last of the plum measured out for a loaf.
Don’t let the raisins stop you from joining in. Variations are always welcomed...
How do you like the valves that is pictured on top the Mason Jar?
Thanks Dan, I'm getting started already. ?
Got build 1 started for a single 600g loaf.
The airlock (sterilock brand) are OK..I kind of like a water airlocks better because it's easier to see what's going on.
These have a filter thingy in the middle that is hard to get out to clean or change. But, they are very compact and so don't take up much room. I also am not really keen on using any metal in any ferments because they start to rust when they come into contact with salts.
Julie, I hope you take pictures and document the Swiss Farmhouse on the Community Bake. The actual bake (Part 2) will be posted next Friday.
Getting setup now making my yeast water - going to try with fresh grapes since I have those on hand.
My culinary muse aka my better half just informed me after 25 years that he doesnt like raisins. So I went on a raisin eating binge. But I think I have some dried currents lurking in the fridge and also some fresh fruit. I will give this a go when I get back from vacation
have made this before - its a great bread and a wonderful loaf for using yeast water...
I know the instructions say "organic, no preservatives" but even some organic dried fruit uses sulphur. As my husband is mildly allergic to sulphur, I'm super cautious when I buy dried fruit. Only naturally dried apricots and such for my house. But if that weren't the case, I think i'd take for granted that maybe sulphur on a package of organic raisins was okay. Obviously not. :-D
Sulphur dioxide or sulphites but not sulphur! Using the word "sulphur" as you have is not appropriate.
Sulphur dioxide is a common preservative and particularly bad for asthmatics and those with sensitivities.
Sulphur is an element and a vital nutrient for all living things (Humans, animals, plants). Can't live without it and we are partly made up of it.
Sulphur dioxide and it bound constituents; sulphites are those that are problematic.
Still, sulphites occur naturally and even yeast produce a little sulphur dioxide (a few mg/L) as a defense mechanism.
In summary it is the sulphur-oxygen compounds that are the issue not sulphur its self.
Forgive my pickiness. But from my perspective it isn't.
Sulphur dioxide has it's place in a world where convenience is a factor and the wine industry would be a different place without it!
Looking forward to this. I will have to get some raisins later today.
I will add notes to this post as things progress. Ambient temperature was 77--82F throughout.
Process
Day 1. Put 179g tap water in a jar. Water was allowed to sit out for 24 hours so that any chlorine would evaporte.
Day 2. Added 74g raisins. They are not organic, but don't contain anny preservatives either.
Day 3. A couple of raisins are floating, but there are no more than a few small bubbles.
Day 4. No change from Day 3. Smells like raisins and not much else.
Day 5. Some mold, which I removed, but otherwise no change. The mold looked mostly white.
Day 6. Scooped off the mold and added about a quarter teaspoon of rice vinegar as a last-ditch effort to make things work (adding acid suggested by Debra Wink).
Day 7. Lots of bubbles, audible fizzing, all raisins floating.
Alge, if you have a choice get organic. Otherwise make sure the raisins don’t have any additives as Abe stared.
Thanks for the tip; will do.
Only 9 hours in and my raisin yeast water is showing activity. Airbubbles have formed around the raisins and some are starting to float. On schedule for a normal raisin yeast water. Should be ready in a few days
So 5 days in without much activity and mould... something is wrong.
Question is if it's the raisins, water or something has been introduced into the YW which shouldn't be there.
Got any raisins left? If so which brand? (i'll look into whether they're truely organic with nothing added). When starting over i'd use boiled water which has been left to cool.
My raisins were whatever the store brand of Whole Foods organic raisins are. I think the problem was the water pH though. Thank you for all your help.
In my experience, when raisins refuse to ferment it's usually because the pH is too high. Hard water often has a high pH. And the raisins, if they're very sweet, may not have enough acid in them to overcome that. Try adding a little citric acid (.02% of the water weight), or ascorbic acid (.5%) to the next batch.
Maybe I'll start a batch to figure out how much lemon juice would do the trick. That might be a simpler/cheaper solution, but citric acid is pretty easy to find these days in the canning section of many grocery stores.
London and the water is hard, and therefore alkaline, yet I have no issues with making yeast water.
However I do boil the water and let it cool first. Will this undo any negative effects of the hard water?
Water treatment is different from municipality to municipality. Raisins differ from source to source. It's mostly luck of the draw, I think.
variable live cultures + variable conditions = variable results
That's all I really know for sure :)
No. not at all. In fact you'll probably increase hardness ever so slightly through concentration via moisture loss.
Hard water is generally preferable to soft water in fermentation.
That was my intention of course! ;)
Thanks Michael.
If you are curious Abe why not have a look at your water quality report.
For you see hear: https://www.thameswater.co.uk/help-and-advice/water-quality/check-the-water-quality-in-your-area
This information is freely available to all citizens.
My water is around 130ppm CaCO3, I'm guessing yours is a fair bit higher!!
Look for total hardness, Calcium Carbonate / CaCO3 (mg/L).
Also look at Alkalinity, this translates as the buffer capacity of your water.
Will do over the weekend and will report back to you for an explanation of the results.
Thank you for the advice. After reading through Dan's compendium of your advice above, I skimmed off the mold, then added a quarter teaspoon of rice vinegar. The raisins were floating and bubbling within about 36 hours. I am not sure if it was the pH change or just more time that did it.
No matter what, you're in business now :)
I am thinking to add a tsp. of fresh squeezed lemon juice to my concoctions. Yea or nay?
But yay as a backup if needed. Give nature a chance.
Sounds like a plan!
I have never had a problem, using straight tap water.
but lemon juice should be fine, similar to someone recommending a pinch of dry citric acid or sour salt.
Most municipal water systems use chloramines, (not chlorine) to treat their water. Unlike chlorine, chloramines do not dissipate over time. Chloramines require a chemical or carbon treatment to neutralize.
That’s Interesting, AG! I was not aware of that. My water is carbon filtered for particles and left open and vented for at least 24 hr, but maybe a call to the municipal water supply is in order.
Thanks,
Dan
https://www.thesprucepets.com/remove-chloramines-from-tap-water-2924183
It seems that if the carbon filter is replaced at the proper intervals the chloramines will not be a problem.
Thanks for the info.
Dan
I hope the raisins I bought today do not have any preservatives in them.
Fingers crossed this works.
Whoever started the idea of a community bake was brilliant. It's so nice to see people progressing and working together as a class would do, but all in our own kitchens and materials. I look forward to getting started, but I need the propper raisins first.
And what a great job he does!
Lance
Agreed. I've been on this board on and off for probably 10 years and seen lots of shifts in "tone" here. There was a time it was pretty condescending to middling bakers like myself. But when I started to come back again recently when I wanted to start grinding my own flour, I was so happy to see more encouragement here - Danayo especially.
I’m totally new here but I have to agree that Danayo is doing an amazing job in so many ways. One thing stood out immediately to me was how welcoming and not intimidating it was as a newbie to post here. I was a bit scared to ask questions at first but that feeling went away very quickly. Everyone who I’ve interacted with here has been so welcoming and generous with their knowledge and encouragement.
I have no idea what to expect this to look like after a few hours. It is a bit cloudy with particulate mater floating around and some bubbles attached to some of the raisins. I assume this is all expected. I have no idea what the pH of my water is, I use filtered tap water just as I do for my sourdough starter and bread.
Bubbles attaching themselves to the raisins is a very good sign. Looks like you're onto a winner. When they're all floating and it's making a fizzing noise, when you hold your ear close to the jar, then it's ready.
Well that is hopeful then, thanks Abe.
On another note, after using this yeast water for the upcoming bake, how does one keep it going? Do you add water and more raisins at some interval?
And it's ready within a few days then I always make fresh. You're never more than 3 or 4 days away from making yeast water but you can keep it going. As with sourdough everyone will have their own method but you have the gist of it already. It'll keep in the fridge for a while so you can refrigerate the yeast water then take some off to build preferments with yeast water and flour then once it's run low just replace the fruit and top up with water. Within 12-24 hours it'll be activated again and refrigerate etc. Or you could just replace some of the fruit and top up however much you take off as you go. Once in a while a big refreshment is needed as described in the first example using a little of the yeast water to inoculate a fresh batch. If all the fruit has sunk to the bottom then go for a big refreshment. Bear in mind that the fruit can sink and refloat in a healthy yeast water but once they've all sunk then it's time to completely refresh. Some like to just replace the water within a dough but I like to do a preferment to make sure everything is fine before going into the main dough. The Swiss Farmhouse Bread has a preferment.
Thanks Abe.
Hi Benito,
Your timeline might be a little different than this, although you should see bubbling within 48-72 hours if it's working. Mold first doesn't bode particularly well, but is not uncommon despite what aficionados say about how easy yeast water is. It can be. But as always, with variable live cultures under variable conditions, there are going to be variable results. That's what makes it interesting, and I have seen some really fascinating molds along the way :)
Day 1
Initially, raisins sink in water and start out on the bottom. Some air bubbles may get trapped in the wrinkles.
Day 2
As they absorb water and swell, raisins expand and appear to be suspended throughout the watery raisin juice, although still underneath the surface.
Day 3
You'll know fermentation is underway when active bubbling becomes evident. The liquid will turn cloudy with yeast, and the raisins migrate upward as they become gassy.
Day 4
As fermentation progresses, the raisins become more buoyant, floating higher in the liquid (above the surface). Excess yeast cells settle in an increasing layer of sediment on the bottom.
Thank you for the photos Debra. I started this about 52 hours ago and no bubbles visible yet today. The water is quite cloudy and there is a bit of a musty odor which I think doesn’t bode well for this yeast water. I’ll keep it going but I really think I’ll need to toss this one eventually and start over.
Benny
Musty odor from mold growth and no bubbles are negative signs, and the flavor is likely compromised at this point. If you've been shaking it, that can account for the cloudiness. Or bacteria. If/when you start over, consider adding citric or ascorbic acid. Citric is often found with canning supplies. A little goes a long way.
I'm rooting for you :)
dw
Debra, could Bennie crush a Vitamin C tablet for Ascorbic Acid? If so, how much should he use?
I’m thrilled to see you join in. Can we expect a Swiss Farmhouse loaf from you?
Yeah Danny, finely crushed tablets are fine. But preferably the unbuffered variety, which means you need to know what to look for in the ingredient list --- they won't usually say "buffered" on the label. It will be an acid (such as stearic acid) and a salt of the acid (i.e., magnesium stearate). That's one possibility. It could be a different acid/salt pair, and if the list is long, they may not appear together, making them harder to spot. Unbuffered brands generally have a very short ingredient list, though.
So, 1000 mg = 1 g. The dosage in mg per pill will be listed on the front of the label (not the weight of the pill)
And I would start with 0.5% based on the water weight --- a 500 mg tablet per 100 g water? You'll have to check my math. If your vit C is a higher dose, dilute with a proportional amount of water, even if you don't need it all. And make it fresh, because it doesn't keep.
I don't think I'll get to bake this bread along with you, but maybe I'll find time to dig out some old photos. It's one of the formulas I tried while working on the book, and it has been one of my favorites ever since :)
You mentioned 0.5% of the water weight.
What if we (me) technical nuts shot for an ideal PH instead. What would you consider the target PH for YW to be?
If this idea makes sense should the PH reading be taken with the water only or should the fruit in the water be measured?
Would this target PH be correct for all types of yeast water?
Danny
Inquiring minds want to know...
I've gotten consistent results bringing the water down to 3.5, and then testing the pH after the raisins have been soaking in it at least a few hours. As long as the pH doesn't rise above 4 in that time, you should be good to go.
But it doesn't have to be from the start. I once had a jar of raisins soaking for 14 days with no sign of fermentation (how it didn't mold, I don't know), and 12 hours after adding citric acid I saw the first bubbles. Within 24, it was happily bubbling away :)
I have bubbles now, but that musty smell persists. This might end up working but tasting bad given the mold that had formed, if that smell continues it would be hard to imagine that it wouldn’t make it taste off.
You may not need to start over, Benny. Let it ferment a day or two, watching for new mold. If none appears, all looks bubbly, and the smell improves, transfer about 1/2 to 1 tsp of the liquid to a new jar with fresh raisins and clean water. It doesn't take more than a splash, and it should take off within 24 hours.
Overnight and around 68 hours or so since starting, I have fermentation. The smell has changed, the musty odor is less, but not quite gone. This is working, the question is now, will the musty odor completely dissipate and not affect the flavour of the bread? I guess I have no idea what it should smell like at this point since I’ve never made yeast water before. If I can find a source of raisins I may still make another batch and inoculate with some of the water from my current batch, but I don’t think I’ll toss this batch.
If this is a good 'n healthy yeast water then you should be able to make bread with it. If unsure about that musty smell then you can try using a bit of this yeast water to inoculate a new batch to "feed it out". When making a yeast water from scratch it can take 3-4 days. But when it comes to a refreshment it should take 12 - 24 hours. What you can do is as follows...
Get another jar and clean it out thoroughly making sure to also wash out all the soap fully.
Fill the jar with a handful of fresh raisins then pour in water which has been boiled and cooled!
Then take a little of this yeast water (about a 1/2 - 1 tablespoon) and add it to your new batch. Give it a good stir. See what happens within the next 12 - 24 hours.
And/Or... you could make a 63% hydrated dough ball to see if your yeast water leavens it. This is the first step of the Hamelman recipe.
The musty smell is completely gone now replaced by a smell that reminds me of a winery.
As a backup I bought organic grapes and started a new yeast water with red grapes to which I added some of the raisin yeast water that has been fermenting.
After 12 hours my grape yeast water is already fermenting. I had the inoculation of some of the yeast water from the raisin one to give it a kick start. I think I will use this one for the CB, it has a cleaner smell that is more fruity and without any of the initial musty moldy odor and it has no mold on it.
Looking good and healthy. 12 hours is very good but this also means that the yeast water you used to kick start this one was also good.
You're on schedule to start the recipe within a day or two. Wait until you can hear the fizzing before going onto the recipe. If it's matured before you have time to bake then refrigerate until needed.
Thanks for your help Abe, and thank you Debra and Danny.
How do you know when it is matured and if not ready to bake, ready to go into the refrigerator to slow down fermentation? The raisin yeast water is still bubbling and the raisins are all floating. The new one is bubbling and you can hear a bit of fizz.
And if you wish you can use it. If not then refrigerate it. Your grape yeast water needs a tad more time. You want them floating with a fizz and bubbles rising to the surface. Again, when ready use or refrigerate.
The yeast waters will be happy in the fridge for a while and as long as it's only been a couple of days just dip into it/them and go onto the first of the two dough builds. The only thing i'd advise is to expect different timing for the first build at least. Recipe recommends 6- 8 hours and it should be visibly risen. Go for visibly risen however long it needs. Second build should be more in time with the recipe.
You can keep your yeast water indefinitely in the fridge. If it's been some time since the last feed and maturing then give it a refreshment.
Great advice Abe, thank you.
Benny
Even though it would probably leaven, I'd let it ferment a few days more to develop better flavor. Whenever I've used raisin water too soon, the bread has been sweet and bland tasting. Grapes/raisins have a lot of sugar. It takes some time to convert it to more flavorful fermentation products, and for the S. cerevisiae population to rise up. The other species may not leaven quite as well. There's a reason for that 5-6 day raisin soak. Inoculating your grapes really only knocks off a day or two. That's just my opinion :)
Debra I will certainly follow your advice. This is my yeast water from grapes 24 hours after starting with the inoculation. Not all the grapes are floating yet but really good fizzing activity.
Almost all the grapes are floating now at around 36 hours. No signs of mold, the fresh grapes are definitely more acidic than the raisins I had.
That's looking really good :)
48 hours plus hours and the grape yeast water inoculated with some raisin yeast water is very active. All the grapes and floating now and it is nice and bubbly.
On another note, I kept the raisin yeast water that had the white mold which I removed and put it into the fridge. The activity has slowed down but it has a lovely lovely smell of fermentation and sweet fruit. 2 of the raisins have now sunk to the bottom but the rest are still floating and there is still some activity.
At what point do we know that the yeast water is ready to use in the next steps of building the dough?
This one looks like it's getting a really good start!
It would be really useful to see photos of raisin water with the "okay" mold that just needs to be removed, and then some with the "bad" mold that means the raisin water is in trouble and should be tossed out.
There are lots of images on the internet, just do a search for 'Botrytis gray mold.' It really loves strawberries too :)
I am positive I had bad mold. Just tossed it (detailed below in a thread).
This is so fascinating! And I don't know what you did before you retired, but you could enter a new career in photography and film editing - so well done.
I noticed in this video they use a 1:3 ratio of raisins to water and we’re using less water. In my bottle there is almost no space for the raisins to float, they have absorbed most of the water and have reached the top of the water. I’m wondering if I should be adding a bit more water?
you are right - it doesn't match.
I have white/grey mold on the surface today. I’m going to have to try to find a source of organic raisins that lists the ingredients to ensure there are no additives in them.
Image
But they will also inhibit any yeast growth we are after. So I doubt that was the problem. Either you can skim off the mould very carefully then discard and replace any of the raisins that have mould on them. Or start again but this time make sure everything is sterile. True raisins look to be floating. Can you hear any fizz?
Bennie, I am disappointed for you. I don’t have enough experience to be a definitive help. But Hamelman says, “White mold normally begins to cover the surface of the raisins, an indication that the liquid is ready.”
I hope this is what you are experiencing and is recoverable. I’d remove the white mold immediately and watch the forum for the replies of others.
Good Luck!
Dan
But I do seem to remember something along those lines. If the mixture is behaving exactly as expected except for the "mould" then perhaps the way to go would be to salvage it. One could test the liquid on a piece of dough (which is what I think the first build is doing) and if it behaves like a mature yeast water, it is a yeast water.
I’ve removed the mound which seemed to be attached to the raisin skins of the raisins that were floating at the top. There was no fizzing sound that I could hear and no bubbles that I could see. I’ll keep it going but also try to find more raisins from another source. On Friday the only organic raisins I could find were from a bulk food place at a market, I’ll look at Whole Foods, I would hope that they would have organic raisins without additives there.
Benny
As I mentioned in another reply, my husband is allergic to sulphur, so I buy all dried fruit at a local farmers' market. At mine there's always one stall with a guy who naturally dries all kinds of fruits. Raisins included.
Dried fruit is not necessary for YW. Grapes, apples, most anything will work.
Duplicated, pls delete. Sorry.
Maybe now that there is fermentation happening I’ll pick up some fresh grapes and add some of the raisin yeast water to kick start it along with the remaining raisins I have if I can’t find organic raisins without additives.
grapes and use a dehydrator to turn them into raisins.
Grapes will work too, so they don't need to be raisins per se..
I've started a new apple water today. It should be ready around Friday.
I used the apple water I already had for a hybrid loaf I baked this morning and it has a lot more lifting power than my previous plum water.
Day 2:
Water has started to get cloudy, bubbles are showing, and fruit are starting to lose color and shape.
Day 3 Update:
The water is quite cloudy now, and there is active fizzing around the apples. It's hard to see on a still image, but it's there. Comparing to day 1, the apples have with each day risen higher and higher in the water column and the peel is losing more and more color and detail with each passing day.
looked like that just before I stuck a stick mixer into it to break up the apples. Strained it later after more fermentation and used the liquid chock full of yeast. A small bit saved to inoculate more yeast water .
I've made lots of yeast water over the years, but I've never read to blend it...
The past couple of days I've been baking with some previous made (only, no sourdough starter) AYW and I'm struggling to get a grip on the crazy fast and strong fermenting.
because not all of it had fermented. Cutting thru a large chunk of apple revealed what appeared to be untouched raw fruit so...why waste it? Purée for a second feeding and feast the yeastie beasties. It worked. Made some nice bread.
Brings back memories of the lovely bricks I made the two times I attempted this recipe! ? Good luck everyone! May the yeast gods be with you and result in a nice fluffy tasty loaf!
My first attempt turned out great. I’ve baked this many times and never had a fail... and I am new to Yeast Water. The flavor is outstanding, bet you’d really enjoy it. Didn’t think I would like raisins and walnuts in a bread, but I was dead wrong.
I hope you decide to join in and redeem yourself :D
Danny
They were awful! Tasted good but total bricks! A friend of a friend gave me a piece of a loaf that she had made and it was lovely! So I thought I would give it a second try! No go! So needless to say, I am really leery of this recipe.
I don’t think I’ll be able to give it a shot in the next few weeks. My daughter is running a half marathon in Vancouver on August 17 so that has kind of taken life over for a bit (I follow her on a bike for her long runs). She actually did the whole thing this morning as a trial so we are both elated with that. Not bad for someone who has rheumatoid arthritis (her, not me!)!
I've just tried this recipe which is still baking. It ferments like a high speed train, so I think this one is overproofed. There was some degassing when I scored it. Shame!
Next attempt I will also reduce amount of fruit and nuts. I'm using cranberries in my bread in place of raisins.
I love this recipe and make it from time to time. my YW lives in the fridge so I take it out the day before, warm it up and feed it. Usually fizzes away within an hour or two. My YW is kept going with raspberries and raisins and is now over 2 years old.
I think the critical thing is to make sure your 1st and 2nd builds in recipe are really active and you keep the dough warm. I use my microwave with a cup of hot water and the door cracked open so temperature sits at around 80°F. I keep the dough warm throughout. I use pecan nuts rather than walnuts and add a little WW in the flour.
I am in Switzerland atm so not sure if I will get to participate, maybe after I get over jet lag lol
Bake Happy Danni
Leslie
Is the YW in the refrigerator only the water, or do you have fruit in it also? I like the idea of having YW ready to go within a day.
Cheers, Gavin
You want to put fresh fruit in the water when you put it in the refrigerator for sure.
At what stage do you think it all went wrong? Perhaps we can put our heads together and work out why. I would love it if you could get to taste and appreciate this bread.
to get the Levain to rise. Took hours and hours to get next to no rise and it all went downhill from there. Maybe my yeast water wasn’t active enough.