Hi. I am a bit frustrated here. I bought 3 sourdough starters from sourdo.com, Ischia, Camaldoli and South African. I tried the Ischia for 7 days and then the Camaldoli for 7 days but neither would start. So 2 weeks later and after a lot of wasted flour I am trying the South African Sourdough starter which is for whole wheat. I have been doing everything exactly by the book (reading the instructions a 100 times and checking and double checking).
I started the South African Sourdough this morning at 90F for 24 hours. After about 5 hours it had about 1/4" of hooch on the top. Now 12 hours later it has about 1/4" of hooch about 1/2" up from the bottom, none at the top any more, but it does not smell really foul - just kind of like beer I guess. None of the other starters that didn't start ever had hooch on the bottom. The instructions say that if it has hooch on the bottom AND it smells bad that the starter has been contaminated and must be 'washed', but I guess one only does this after the first 24 hours. But my question is if it seems to smell ok (I think!) but the hooch is on the bottom it does not satisfy both tests, so is it contaminated or not?
I guess the other problem is maybe I don't know how bad it is supposed to smell to be contaminated and I have no reference to go by really.
Any advice? I've been emailing Ed Wood who I bought these starters from but he just keeps asking the same questions over and over (ie if I have followed the instructions) and now won't respond for 4 days.
I think it was a lucky guess on my part.
I am using Nestle Pure Life 100% Natural Spring Water (Sodium 25mg/500ml, Calcium 4%/500ml, Mineral Salt Content 552ppm and Flouride Ion 0.4ppm) that I got at Costco a couple days ago but will look for the Canadian Spring. I don't see Canadian Spring's sodium level anywhere on their website so can't compare. I emailed them to ask, or do you know?
It will increase the flour and reduce the water on the next feeding.
Now, are you saying my starter is ready now, or after I get the pH down a bit and TTA up to the required levels as per your instructions above?
Well, your starters rise well, as requested by the 2-3 inches in 2-4hrs criteria, in that sense they are ready.
However, as we discussed yesterday, you TTA isn't reaching proper levels by 8-12 hrs mark, so you need to keep your jars at 32-34 for a while to bump up bacterial population. You need to stimulate bacterial growth in your starters. And that is done by keeping them non-aerated at 32-34C. I.e. once you move them into your proof box, to keep them warm and cozy, don't stir the batter anymore, ok?
Water hardness is combined amount of Ca and Mg salts (, i.e. calcium carbonate, etc... not table salt, i.e. not sodium, Na content). Ice Age has very low mineral content, it's extremely soft. Nestle Pure life , aka Aberfoyle is hard water, which encourages microbial contamination of water and that could affect starters.
So results are:
White - pH almost to 4, TTA 4.4
Whole Wheat - ph almost to 4, TTA 6.4
I am putting them in the proofing box at 32-34C and test in the morning.
I didn't put wheat germ in the whole wheat I fed the starter because I thought that only affected the dough, not the starter. I will get some.
Now I am a confused about keeping the starter non-aerated in the proofing box at 32-34C. Don't I aerate them when I feed them then put them in the proofing box? Am I not supposed to aerate them when I feed them just before putting them in the proofing box?
White is good! You can feed it!
But whole wheat one isn't there yet. However, it is not WHOLE wheat... remember, while at my place you mixed whitish starter with whole grain flour and water, so it won't get at a very high level of total acidity. It is a mix of different flours, not a pure whole wheat yet.
So feed BOTH : )
When you feed the starter you knead it and that action of kneading dough (beating it) aerates it. But then
1) if your goal is to grow and multiply yeast cells, you keep aerating it throughout the period of 12 hrs , i.e every two hours, or even continuously, as in a mixer with a paddle at slow speed.
2) if your goal is to grow and multiply bacteria, don't aerate after initial mixing and kneading. Leave it standing for full 8+hrs @32-34C, checking its TTA occasionally, until it get to the level of maturity. OK?
Your goal right now is to push a bit more towards bacterial growth. So feed them and go to bed. Let them sit still. At 32-34C. OK?
best wishes,
mariana
Or am I supposed to not feed them, just put them in the proofing box at 32-34C?
edited. Yes, feed them. TTA is high enough for that. Very good.
In the morning, should they show proper TTA levels, then feed them again. OK?
mariana
Ok after 12 hours in the proofing box at 33C (+/- 0.5C) the white starter had risen during the night and overflowed the jar and there was also starter on the bottom of the proofing box, but it was back almost to the original level. The whole wheat looks like it probably had risen 1.5" during the night but was back down to the original level.
White - pH between 4 & 4.5, probably closer to 4, TTA 5.6
Whote Wheat - ph between 4 & 4.5, TTA 6.4
I think the white is activated but the whole wheat is not as the TTA is not 7 yet, so I put only the whole wheat back in the proofing box but I have not fed it yet, should I?
I agree with you. It seems that the white one is ready to use in baking (or to prepare it for refrigerated storage, in any case), so you can start baking with it today.
And the whole wheat one ... I would give it another 2-4 hrs @ 32C to see if it gets to the target TTA and then feed and leave at 21C for 8-12 hrs. OK?
I have done that. Well now this exciting since I can finally bake a sourdough loaf. I was thinking of trying the recipe on page 6 of the South African Instructions, which is a 2/3rds whole wheat and 1/3 white flour mix but to only make 1/2 the recipe, ie 1 1-1/2 lb loaf.
So, as I understand it, now that I have an active culture can I now create the culture proof using the instructions in the booklet to mix the flour blend with 1 cup of water and proof for 6 hours at 85 or 12 hours at room temp (68-72). Is either better than the other?
Also, I am now wondering what would the difference be if the whole wheat starter had been fully activated and I was using it in this recipe instead? They are both the same sourdough culture just different flour.
Mariana informs me that proofing the dough for 6 hours at 85F vs 12 hrs at 69-72F (68 should be more like 18 hours she informs me while 72 for 12 hours) will impart different flavours to the dough just as whole wheat SA starter will impart a different flour than SA white flour starter. So, aside from different flour blends, there could be 4 distinct tastes to this dough for one particular flour blend depending on the SA starter used and the proof time (aside from other aspects that could also change the taste).
So, I am following the Recipe #3 on pages 6-7 in the SA Instruction booklet. I had about 400g of white flour starter in the jar so I fed it with 200g flour and 250g water, first mixing the water with the starter with the hand-held mixer on high, then adding the flour, mixing it again on low and then letting it rest 15 min before beating it with the hand-held mixer again on low until it appeared to be kneeding the dough to a thick consistency. I then poured it back into the cleaned jar and proofed it for 2 hours at 85F at which time it rose almost to the top of the jar (about 3 inches).
I then took out a cup of the starter for the recipe and put the jar with the rest of the starter in the fridge. Mariana informed me to mix it every 2-3 hours to stop it from collapsing which prevents the gluten from (getting weak or ?). It should be good for a week by just bringing it to room temperature (I think). I am not sure if I need to stir it every day though.
I mixed the flour for the recipe (4 cups whole wheat + 2 cups white bread flour, both Robin Hood brand). I did the first 2 steps together (Mariana said it was ok!) and created the sponge. Specifically, I mixed 2-1/2 cups of the flour blend with 1-1/4 cup of water and the 1 cup of culture, then split it into two in order to see how different proofing times and temperatures affect the taste. So, I then started to proof one of the sponges at 85F for 4-6 hours and one at 68F for 18 hours. Then I will do step 3.
Here is a picture of my South Africa Sourdough Starter with white flour that is now left over and is being stored in the fridge. Thank you so much Mariana for helping to get me to this stage!
Also, my whole wheat starter is now at pH = 4 and TTA = 7.2 so it looks like this one is ready for activation! Do I now feed it to activate and then store it in the fridge or just store it in the fridge?
So I followed the recipe with the 6 hour sponge (adding the flour, kneeding etc) and let it proof again in the dutch oven with the lid off at 85F until it doubled in size. I heated up the oven to 375F and baked it for 45 minutes with the lid on then 20 min with the lid off as I thought Mariana said 30 min with the lid off but wasn't sure because the instructions say 45 minutes total but that is not in a dutch over. Anyway I got confused.
The dough really hardly rose at all and did brown much. After my excitement over getting the starters where they should be, I am a disappointed and not sure what I did wrong or maybe this is the way it is supposed to end up. It sure doesn't look like all the other nicely browned loaves that seem to rise a lot more on here.
Hi TFlour,
congratulations with both starters being fully active, functional and ready! Very good.
Baking times and temperatures in Ed Wood's instruction booklet are for the pan loaves. I.e dough is baked in bread tins. Thus 375F is not bad for baking, quite appropriate indeed.
For hearth loaves one needs at least 425F, or else there would be no oven spring and hardly any crust browning. Yesterday we discussed that on the phone, when I mentioned Cook's Illustrated method of baking from cold oven and you agreed that you understood. Apparently you thought about some other CI article.
I was talking about this one, where they moved on from preheated Dutch oven to cold oven and cold Dutch oven:
So yeah, your oven was too cold for the loaf to achieve nice jump with opening along the slashes and serious browning. That is not starter's fault, but baking technique. I.e. oven management. The best method for the newbies is actually this one, devised by Susan from this community
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/9907#comment-9907
I tested it and fell in love with it. The Best, really. My loaves using Susan's set up: cookie sheet and 4Qt pyrex glass bowl
Your starters are top notch at this time. Congratulations! They look really healthy and gorgeous and they measure proper pH and total acidity. I am happy that this ordeal (or adventure) is over for you.
Baking sourdough breads, learning fine details about it, would be another chapter, another adventure to remember, I guess. : )
best wishes,
mariana
Wow, that looks beautiful (what I wanted to achieve).
I got confused about the instructions and just couldn't remember everything even though I thought I wrote them down right. Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad there was something I did wrong because at least now there is hope if I do things right.
I have the sponge that has proofed for about 13 hours now @ 70F and I will try another loaf with this one.
Thanks, I am going to read her method and try it. I like the fact you can see through the pyrex bowl. I always wonder what is happening in the dutch oven when the bread is baking and don't want to reach in and take the lid off to check. I am going to see if I can find a pyrex bowl that large this week.
In the first picture it looks like the dough is sitting on a cookie sheet. But in the second picture it looks like it is sitting on a round piece of parchment paper which then curled up in the third photo. So I take it you put the parchment paper on the cookie sheet, then the boule on it, then the glass bowl on it and then slid it into the oven? Is that correct?
Also, in your post below you mention you baked at 425F for an hour. Was that in a pre-heated oven as Susan's instruction say to preheat but the instructions above for the dutch oven say don't preheat, but when it gets to 425 then time for one hour? Her instructions have very different times, but she takes the bowl off for 8 minutes at the end. Did you take the bowl off as you didn't mention that?
My whole wheat SA starter activated nicely so much so that it overflowed the jar. So, I decided to use some of it to make the sourdough baguettes in Ed Wood's book. We'll see how those turn out tomorrow.
This is my first loaf baked with South African culture from Ed Wood's Sourdo.com
70% whole wheat, 30% white all purpose flour, 4 hr sponge @85F/29C, no-time dough, 2 hr proof @85F/29C, 1 hr bake@ 425F,
Moderately sour, nice fragrance. This culture is indeed quite suitable for whole grain baking. Lovely.
mariana
Here is a pic of the inside. It looks a lot denser than I expected and it hardly looks like it did not rise at all.
The bread does appear to have a mild sourdough flavour to me, but this is my first one so I really have no reference point.
Hi, TFlour,
would you like to bring your second portion of sponge (cold fermentation method) to my place and we'll go step by step and bake a successful loaf with it? It will take about 3-3.5 hrs from start to finish.
What do you think?
mariana
Thanks. That is a kind offer but I cannot today as I have to prepare for a friends birthday party. But I think I understand your instructions now and will attempt a more successful end result.
But, if that does not work then I may take you up on your offer another time! Thanks.
reference points. The differences can help you out. You can see that perhaps your oven needs to be warmer and perhaps your final proof needs a tiny bit more time to gather gas. That is, if a more open crumb is desired. I bet toasting will give you some added flavour. You did good! It's all part of the learning experience!
Looking forward to the next loaf! :)
I placed the sponge that fermented for about 15 hours into the fridge yesterday late afternoon as I wasn't going to bake. Today I took it out and let it rest at 70F for about 3 hours and then mixed it with the rest of the flour as in the recipe I did above. I formed it into a boule and place it on parchment paper in my Le Creuset dutch oven and put the lid on to let it rest and double in size according the Ed Wood's instructions. Then I baked it as per Mariana's instructions - put the dutch oven with the lid on in the oven, then turned the oven to 425 and then when it reached 425F (about 35 minutes) I left it in with the lid on for 30 minutes and then took the lid off and baked it for another 25 minutes. I would have left it for 30 minutes but the crust was getting awfully dark. I am much happier with the result compared to the last time although it doesn't quite look as pretty as Mariana's nor did it rise quite as much. Maybe my slashing technique needs to be improved or it was something else?
The crust definitely tastes burnt, is quite hard and unfortunately overwhelms the taste of the bread inside, which tastes pretty good and has a mild sourdough flavour. It is a bit more burnt on the bottom than on the top. I am cutting the crust off before I eat it. Maybe my oven is a 'hot' oven and I know baking is a science as well as an art so likely I should note that for next time and not bake it as long.
big difference! Congratulations with successful bake, TFlour. Now you know what to aim at when you are baking, i.e. less browning of the crust and probably shorter baking times for the loaves of this size and composition.
My second loaf with cold sponge was not free form, I baked it in a bread pan. It turned out well. Delicious indeed and with pronounced acidity, although not overwhelming.
best wishes
mariana
That looks really nice. Both your loafs are less dense than mine and your first one has a lot more air bubbles in it. I wouldn't think that has to do with the bake time, does it? Also, was your second loaf baked under a pyrex bowl?
Not really. Bread crumb structure has nothing to do with baking times, TorontoFlour. Crumb quality - yes, it can be underbaked (wet, gluey) or overbaked (dry, crumbly)... but structure of the crumb itself is created prior to baking and in the initial stages of baking. So baking times, overall baking times, do not affect crumb bubbliness, athe very structure and pattern of the pores.
I don't own a Pyrex bowl large enough to place an entire bread pan under it. So it was baked "with steam", but not using Pyrex bowl method.
Anyways, we both should be content by now. : ) The South Africa culture was successfully activated and works as prescribed .
Bread dough and bread baking is entirely different topic altogether. It covers everything that you do, once you have quality ingredients and mix them into something that you eat - bread. If you have yeast culture, you need it to be active to bake yeasted bread. If you have sourdough culture, you learned how to make it active to bake with it sourdough bread. So now we have active culture of very good quality, indeed.
I think I will give Dr.Wood's recipes from the booklet for South Africa culture some attention, i.e. bake both pan breads using his recipes for oven, and his recipes for bread machine loaves. The culture itself is active and working, it indeed has a personality of its own. It doesn't resemble any other sourdough cultures from his collection. So our work here is done! : )
best wishes,
mariana
Is it possible that you are over proofing? I have read that sourdough breads should only increase in size 20-30% before baking. If you wait until it doubles you may be causing those bubbles to over expand, weaken and collapse in the oven.
I read that what you want is to create the bubbles and have them be "strong" so they don't break when the steam heat expands them. The way to get there is to avoid the over proofing/over expansion (I.e., not letting it double) before baking.
I just wanted to report a successful conclusion to this thread. Mariana has been immensely helpful in educating me (both on here and at her home) regarding sourdough cultures and how to activate them, how to get them to and test them for proper pH and TTA, how to feed the culture and maintain it, how flours differ in protein content and water absorption and many other bread-making issues so I am very indebted to her. Also, thanks for the help I received from other people. I have a lot more to learn but am very happy I have gotten over this hurdle. I've been baking quite a bit to get the hang of the various stages and here are a few of the loaves I recently did (and there are a few in the freezer ready for the city's compost truck to come by!).