Hi. I am a bit frustrated here. I bought 3 sourdough starters from sourdo.com, Ischia, Camaldoli and South African. I tried the Ischia for 7 days and then the Camaldoli for 7 days but neither would start. So 2 weeks later and after a lot of wasted flour I am trying the South African Sourdough starter which is for whole wheat. I have been doing everything exactly by the book (reading the instructions a 100 times and checking and double checking).
I started the South African Sourdough this morning at 90F for 24 hours. After about 5 hours it had about 1/4" of hooch on the top. Now 12 hours later it has about 1/4" of hooch about 1/2" up from the bottom, none at the top any more, but it does not smell really foul - just kind of like beer I guess. None of the other starters that didn't start ever had hooch on the bottom. The instructions say that if it has hooch on the bottom AND it smells bad that the starter has been contaminated and must be 'washed', but I guess one only does this after the first 24 hours. But my question is if it seems to smell ok (I think!) but the hooch is on the bottom it does not satisfy both tests, so is it contaminated or not?
I guess the other problem is maybe I don't know how bad it is supposed to smell to be contaminated and I have no reference to go by really.
Any advice? I've been emailing Ed Wood who I bought these starters from but he just keeps asking the same questions over and over (ie if I have followed the instructions) and now won't respond for 4 days.
What exactly have you been doing to activate these starters? I'm sorry I don't know what the procedure is. Each of those starters should have worked right on the first day, because they are supposed to be mature cultures already, and just need to be reactivated with a little flour and water. Perhaps his instructions were not the best. Also, are you measuring by volume or by weight? What is the consistency of the starter when you feed it? Around here, we like it to be at least as thick as a pancake batter. Some even keep theirs like a dough. If you feed it equal proportions of flour and water, it should do well. In that warm of environment, you may just not be feeding it enough. It will burn through food quickly at that temp. If it smells like beer, it is fermenting, which is what it's supposed to do. It probably needs more food. Try taking what you've got (don't remove any) and add enough flour to make it like a thick pancake batter. Watch it for a while. It should rise to its highest point and stop for a while then start to fall. Anytime after it has reached its highest peak, you can feed it again. I would recommend discarding all but 20g and feeding 80g each of flour and water at that point. In several hours it will need to be fed again. If you want to get it to once-a-day feeding, you should probably take it down to 10g of starter, and feed it at least 100g (maybe more, at 90F) each of flour and water. If you use less water, making it thicker, it will slow it down more, maybe use 100g flour to 60g water, or something like that.
Exactly according to Ed Wood's book, Classic Sourdough's and all items weighed.
What I wanted to know was if hooch on bottom and ok smelling starter is ok.
During the first 24 hrs the most important factor is temperature. Maintain T of the flour+water mix at 32-33C. I use either electric heating pad (from pharmacy) on the lowest setting, or gently preheated oven.
If it separates into layers, blend layers with spoon. Washing of the starter is done when you have a starter. Right now it's not a starter yet.
I had success with every culture from Ed Wood (I am also in Toronto), except this South African item. It gave me an impossibly acidic flavorless starter. So I got another packet from Ed and plan to activate it again. Maybe second time it will work better, who knows.
best wishes
mariana.
With my first two cultures (done separately, 1 each week) I had the first culture in a wide mouth 1 quart glass jar with a loose fitting lid in a styrofoam proofing box for 24 hours at 90F and regulated with a digital thermostat and also verified by having a thermometer inside the box (I'm an engineer and lawyer so I am pretty anal with ensuring things are just right). After the first 24 hours it was taken out and kept in the dining room at 70F. After 7 days of feeding 140g of flour and 180ml of filtered Brita water every 12-24 hours there was no rise. With the second culture I discovered my Wolf electric oven has a 'Proof' feature and I could use that to regulate the temperature to 90F for 24 hours. So I placed the jar in the oven. I also placed a thermometer in the oven to double check the temperature. Again, nothing after 7 days of feeding.
The South African culture I put in the proofing box at 90F for 24 hours (along with the whole wheat flour and water of course) and when I took it out I then mixed the culture as it had hooch on the bottom (not the top), then poured out half, then fed it 1 cup of whole wheat flour and 3/4 cup of filtered water as per the special instructions provided with that culture. I kept it outside the box of course in my dining room at 70F (again verified by thermometer). Within 4 hours it rose 3 inches. Apparently that means the culture is activated apparently. 12 hours after taking it out there is 5/8" of hooch on the bottom, not the top, the culture smells a bit like beer but not fragrant at all and not super foul smelling.
So, I have REALLY followed the instructions to a T. I don't know why I would do otherwise as that would have little chance of success.
So, my questions still are what does hooch on the bottom not the top mean? Apparently hooch on the top + a foul smell means it's contaminated and needs to be washed. But, hooch on the bottom and smelling like beer but not super foul? Does anyone know?
Ed Wood has been no help at all. He refuses to answer any of my questions 5 days later, but has twice asked me to repeat what I have already emailed him only a few days earlier. Then, after not answering my questions he sent an emall and suggested that proofing in the oven was the problem? Huh? Temperature is temperature as far as I know! I would never buy anything from this man again as once he makes the sale he simply forgets about his customers and may ask questions, but then just goes silent. Why ask questions if when you get the answers you don't respond? Very frustrating.
Oh, I see that your instructions (or your interpretation of instructions) are different! I activate according to the following protocol from Ed Wod:
1) Mix ingredients in 1L jar (this means 300-500 strong strokes with spoon). Keep that mixture for 24hrs @32C
30g of culture from the packet
110g flour
180g water 40C
(in Toronto, please, don't use water from faucet, even if filtered with Brita. It frequently spoils starters. I speak from experience. Use either distilled water or spring water. Brand Canadian Springs, 8L bottles with tap, I get it from NoFrills, Loblaws. http://www.aquaterracorp.ca/category.aspx?id=100001 )
2) to the mixture from the step (1) add
145g flour
160g cold water
Mix (300-500 strokes), leave for 12 hrs at 21C
3) to the mixture from the step (2) add
145g flour
160g cool water.
Mix well, then discard half and let another half ferment for 12hrs at 21C.
4) to the mixture from the step (3) add
145g flour
160g cool water
mix, measure 1 cup (240ml, 200g) of that mixture and let it ferment in 1 l jar for 12 hrs at 21C.
...
repeat step (4), until you get a starter, meaning that 1 cup (200g) of liquid dough in 1 l jar will foam up, rising up 5 cm from initial level in 2-3 hours after feeding.
This starter can be used for mixing a sponge or simply stored in refrigerator.
Bread, using Finnish sourdough culture from Ed Wood.
Your protocol from what you are saying above is different. You started halving the mix and adding to the half of it fresh flour and water immediately, I.e. you overfeed the mixture. That delays formation and establishment of the new culture significantly.
- what does hooch on the bottom not the top mean?
- hooch is alcohol from alcoholic fermentation mixed with water formed during yeast respiration. You don't have that (hooch) yet. You have water separating from the dough, i.e. excess of water in your dough, the amount of water is too large for the amount of flour. That is what it means.
- Within 4 hours it rose 3 inches. Apparently that means the culture is activated apparently.
- When a culture foams up that fast that much, it only indicates a large number of gas producing bacteria and yeast cells in your FLOUR. It is not an activated starter culture yet. If it were, the accompanying smell would be out of this world fragrant, delicious, strong and enticing.
best wishes,
mariana
For the Ischia and Camaldoli I went by the instructions in his book and on the flyer that he includes.
For Step 1 the only difference is he specifies to use 105g not 110g of flour and 180ml of warm water (he doesn't specify it in grams) which weighs 180g just as you specify.I can't see how 5g of flour would make a difference. For the South African which has its own instruction booklet, he specifies 3/4 cup of flour and 1 cup of warm water (75F-85F). I take it there is more water because whole wheat flour absorbs more.
Thanks for the tip on not using tap water even if through a Brita filter, but again I was going by his book where on page 29 he even states that he has never had problems using water with flouride or chlorine (but that some have with chlorine so avoid it then if you have problems).
For Step 2 he specifies 145g vs the 140g you list and up to 180 ml (ie 180g) of water to maintain the thick pancake like batter and feed every 12-24 hours and 70F (ie 21C). But I have been putting in a bit less than 180ml of water and probably more like about 160ml, ie 160g, like you specify as I found that's all I needed to get the consistency. Again I don't think the 5g of flour difference makes a difference, especially if one adds enough water to get the consistency specified. The main difference here is he specifies to feed it every 12-24 hours whereas you say ever 12 hours. Actually I did it every 18-24 hours with the first culture (for 7 days) then every 12 hours with the second for 7 days, but neither activated. With the South African I am feeding every 12 hours as that's what that special instruction booklet says to do.
Now you say feed then discard all but a cup. On page 28 of his book he says discard all but half before feeding. Btw, I put a line at the one cup mark on the jar so I always knew I had one cup left. So it's not really a question of interpretation as I am doing exactly what his book says to do.
With respect to discarding 1/2 right a way with the first culture I did not do this after the first 24 hours. I did it as you specified (ie on the third feeding) but before feeding. On the second culture I figured maybe I did it wrong, as the book is ambiguous as to whether you discard after it comes out of the proofing box, so I did it right away, then fed. On this South African culture I did it when I took it out of the box and before feeding as it had risen a bit and I figured it might overflow if I didn't.
So, aside from me discarding all but a cup the 2nd and 3rd times right after it comes out of the proofing box, the differences are you say to feed first then discard. Ed Wood's book says to discard first then feed. How could we receive different instructions from the same source? Maybe his instructions change over time but I got these cultures and the book last year.
Also, on page 29 of his book Ed Wood specifically says 'when foam and bubbles increase the culture's volume by about 3 inches (8cm) within 2 to 3 hours of its last feeding, the culture is fully active and can be used or refrigerated until needed'. For the South African culture his special booklet says ' at least 2 inches within 2 to 3 hours after the last feeding, activation is complete'. This is exactly what happened after the first feeding with the South African after it came out of the proofing box which Ed Wood says means that it is active. Now you are saying this does not mean it is active, but then further down under the first and second picture you say this does mean it is active. You seem to be contradicting yourself or what am I missing here? Now I am REALLY confused.
Also, after rising 3 inches within 3 hours after the first feeding, now for the last two feedings it has not risen at all and now what I called hooch, which you say is just water, is 1/2" thick and now is on the top of the culture and no longer on the bottom. I don't know why all of a sudden it is not rising anymore, and I am watching it every 1/2 hour after feeding so I know it hasn't risen then fallen.
I am going to continue to feed it every 12 hours as the South African booklet specifies, use even less water (and use spring water now) and discard it after feeding instead of before feeding as Ed Wood specifies.
I'd really like to know why my written instructions are so different from yours.
Let us focus on S-A culture for now. I have placed the first stage mix to activate for the first 24H @32C right now (Today, 5PM). We'll see how it goes. I will rely on instructions for SA culture specifically, from the booklet that accompanies.
It says
The organisms...(in this sourdough culture) produce the sourest breads I have experienced. ... It gives a lovely strong flavour. ... (It) happily rises at temperatures down to 18C/68F. ..Never expose it to temperatures over 100F /38C p1
From my experience, it is impossibly sour, yes. I missed the flavour though. It didn't smell or taste 'lovely'. So I hope this time I will get something with lovely flavour.
The steps are outlined on p2. I says
It is activated by feeding 100 percent whole wheat or white flour and water and proofed for 24h. At the end of that time... start feeding 1 cup of whole wheat flour and 3/4 cup of water every 12 hours. Your will soon have a full jar (1L) of partially activated culture. At this point discard some (half) and feed, discarding the excess as necessary.
I will follow the step as it says, i.e.
1) Mix
30g dried culture in WWF
3/4 cup APF (white), I measured 110g white All-purpose flour, because white flour is cleaner, has low content of contaminants, compared to WWF
1 cup water , I measured 240g of Canadian Spring water @85F/30C
leave for 24hrs @ 32C
2) add
1 cup WWF (125g)
3/4 cup of water, 180g water 70-75F/21-24C
12h @21-24C
3) add
1 cup WWF (125g)
3/4 cup of water , 180g water 70-75F/21-24C
12h @21-24C
This will give nearly a full jar, so I would probably discard some right after mixing it, so that I could see at least a 5 cm rise in 2-3 hrs of fermentation, should it happen, accompanied by a 'lovely flavour'.
By then it would be full 48 hrs. We'll see if it activates that fast. The booklet says it's possible. If not, I will report how it goes after that. OK?
---
- I don't know why all of a sudden it is not rising anymore
- that fact, that your dough is standing still right now, no bubbling is a good sign. It confirms that bubbling was due to the non-sourdough bacteria in FLOUR, not SD culture.
As the concoction becomes more and more sour, the pathogens die out (they like neutral pH). And true sourdough microbes (lactic bacteria and sourdough yeast) will take over, those species that like pH around 3.5-4.5
Let it sit, until it is acidic enough (pH at least 4.0-4.5, to discourage bacteria from whole wheat flour from reproducing) and then feed again. Eventually the culture will take over.
RE: tap water. I have been working with different sourdough cultures in Toronto (High Park area) since 2007 and never had an issue with tap water straight from the tap. However, in the last 2-3 years tap water started bothering my starters. I.e. I would be either unable to maintain an existing starter using tap water (straight from the tap, brita filtered, or filtered and boiled - nothing worked), or develop one from scratch or from store bought culture. Water was killing bacteria, but not yeast and water was damaging gluten in starters. So I switched to distilled water (it always works), and then found this Canadian Spring brand that is soft water (low mineral content), quite pure and comes with tap that prevents contaminants getting into the bottle when you take some water from it. It works well.
best wishes,
mariana
What do you use to test the pH?
I use lithmus paper strips that work in pH range 3.0-6.0
something like that
http://www.amazon.ca/Strips-0-5-5-0-Universal-Indicator-Papers/dp/B00HVT9SHO/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1394665927&sr=8-17&keywords=ph+paper
but if you plan to work with starters and sourdough, you might go as fancy as that:
just insert the tip of pH meter into dough and it will tell you its pH
http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=69257&cat=2,42578
I've always wanted a PH meter but I sure am not paying over $100 for one! Not enough time right now to get some litmus paper unless there is a retail location around in Toronto somewhere. Is there any length of time that would result in the PH being right?
Yeah, I hear you: ) It's made in Japan, that is why the price is pricey : )
Rona hardware has pH strips in two locations
http://www.rona.ca/en/test-strips-37425025--1
And Home Hardware as well
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Outdoor-Living/Yard-Decor/Planting/Accessories/Miscellaneous/PH-Soil-Tester/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk…
- Is there any length of time that would result in the PH being right?
- No. It all depends on the kind of flour you have, dough hydration, temperature, and on the culture you are using.
To Home Hardware it is tomorrow (I'm far from a Rona). Thanks so much. I am anxious to get a starter activated after almost 3 weeks now trying.
In answer to your question
- I'd really like to know why my written instructions are so different from yours.
- I do have the same book as you. However, I also got a number of pages with instructions sent along with the cultures. So after comparing them with those in the book (Classic SD, revised) I used the ones on the printout. Here's a photocopy of the first page
and of the portion that specifies the steps in culture activation
I was provided with the same instructions. To me they don't seem to be inconsistent with the book except for the fact the book mentions exact weights and volumes for the flour and water, which work out to about the same as on these instructions. Where are these instructions inconsistent?
Hi,
the differences in instructions are the following
1) BOOK "proof for about 24 hours. Warm place (about 32C)". The goal of that step is to promote growth of the lactobacilli, increased acid production... High acidity.... I.e. at the end of that stage pH should be at least 4.5 even if it takes longer than 24 hrs at 32C
PRINTOUT doesn't state the duration for step 1, but in step 2 says 'at the end of 24 hrs...feed', i.e. exactly 24 even if the batter hasn't reached high acidity level yet.
2) BOOK Feed 1 cup flour and up to 3/4 cup water (thick pancake batter consistency). Leave for 12-24hrs at 70F.
PRINTOUT Feed 1 cup flour and water. Leave for about 12 hrs at 70F
3) BOOK repeat step (2)
PRINTOUT feed 1 cup flour and (1 cup?) water. Maintain the consistency of thick pancake bater. Discard 1/2. (exact wording is divide the culture into two 1L jars). 12hrs at about 21C
4) BOOK repeat step (3) Should mixture foam and overflow, divide into two jars.
PRINTOUT feed 1 cup flour and water , 12 hrs @21C.
following feedings
BOOK discard half, feed the remainder with 1 cup flour and enough water to obtain thick pancake batter consistency. 12-24hrs at 21C.
PRINTOUT: feed 1 cup flour and water, discard all but a but one cup of culture or the jar will overflow.
READINESS
BOOK foam bubbles increase the culture's volume by 3 inches (8cm) withing 2-3 hrs of its last feeding.
PRINTOUT foam and bubbles will increase the volume by 2 inches within 2-3 hrs of the last feeding.
Not all of those instructions conflict with each other although they may be written differently. Also, the ones that do are very subtly different and I can't imagine they would make a difference.
in any event shouldn't both sets of instructions work and how would one know not to follow one but the other?
Mathematically and biologically they lead to opposite outcomes: feeding 1.5 : 1 is opposite to feeding 1 : 1.5 and one (single species) is opposite to multiple (species)
The book instructions lead to 700g of starter in 1L jar, the starter rises 3 inches in 2 hrs@21C, it is fed 1.5 parts starter to 1 part fresh dough. This is appropriate for a single species starter, i.e. San-Francisco sourdough and German rye sour.
The printout instructions lead to 500g of starter in 1L jar. the starter rises 2 inches in 2 hrs. It is fed 1 part starter to 1.5 parts fresh dough. This is appropriate for starters with multiple species of lactic bacteria and yeast. I.e. French wheat sourdough, Russian rye, etc.
They both work. However only one of them accompanies the cultures :) The cultures don't come with the book attached : ) that was my one and only criterion of choice.
I used instructions that came with the cultures. They were written after publication of the book, they are more detailed, and I assume they account for the ever incoming customers feedback and for the feedback from the readers of the book
best wishes,
mariana
The 1.5:1 vs 1:1.5 does not really follow I do not think. One is maintaining a pancake-batter like consistency in both cases and even if in one case one is feeding 3/4 cup of flour (printout) vs 1 cup (book) the fact that the printout instructs to leave 1 cup of batter in the jar vs the book instructing to discard 'about half' the mixture means one could actually end up with the same ratio in each case. 'About' half the mixture is not a specific volume.
But you also say the book's instructions are appropriate for single species starter and the printout for multiple species but then that 'they both work'. I am not saying you are wrong (I have no clue!), but how do you know this by the way? Anwyay, even though they are appropriate for different circumstances it doesn't really matter anyway? Or just that the chances are greater for success if one uses the book for single species and the printout for multiple species? I am confused (yet again!).
I ordered the book and cultures (Ischia, Camaldoli & South African) together. You say the instructions were written after the publication of the book. I don't know how you know this because nowhere on the printout does it list the date of publication. It also says Quick Reference, rather than 'Updated Reference' or something to that effect, which one would think would be labelled at the top of the page if Ed Wood expected those to be followed instead of the book.
Anyway, Ed Wood obviously needs to do some serious editing of his instructions (and start providing some customer service) as I shouldn't have to go online and spend hours in an attempt to get explanations about how to activate the starters I bought from him.
I also wanted to add, for the South Africa culture I am using the special booklet provided with it entitled 'The South Africa Sourdough Culture Instructions' to activate it and not the book or the printout. These instructions are again slightly different. I don't know if it's a single or multiple species starter, do you?
Hi! How is your starter doing today? Mine is 20 hrs old and has already reached pH of 4.5, smells excitingly nice, milky, like yogurt, like a good starter...
I am sorry that you had to go online to find answers to your questions. Unfortunately, novices tend to misunderstand even the simplest instructions when it comes to sourdough and make mistakes that lead to baffling outcomes. Been there, done that ...million times myself.
Even with yeast alone, it is not so simple to learn to manage dough, if you learn all by yourself. It's because it is next to impossible to find a skilled person nearby who could SHOW you, instead of tell. I don't know of workshops in Toronto where you could come and in a single evening or even a weekend learn to handle sourdough. Words are victims of misinterpretations, and written words - even more. I know it from experience.
I am also using instructions from the booklet that came with South Africa culture. And yes, the instructions for activation and for washing are 'different'. I will see what will come out of the jar as I proceed, i.e. I will see whether the halving of the mixture should be done after the second feed of after the third.
As it is written, it prescribes the following regimen of feeding the flour mix in the packet
(1) feed 1:4, 185% hydration, 24h@32C +2C (I assume)
(2) fed 1:1, 175% hydration, 12h@21C +2C (I assume, given that this culture thrives even at 18C)
(3) feed 2:1, 165% hydration, 1kg of batter (1000g) divide in half
ideally, at this point 2-3 hrs after feeding 500g of that mix in 1L jar should rise 2-3 inches in height and the activation is complete.
should that not be the case, complete full 12hrs at 21C and the feedings will continue
(4) feed 1.5:1, 155% hydration, 12h @21C... etc.
I have no idea how many species of yeast and bacteria this culture contains, but it is treated as the single species culture. Feeding are scarce and they pressure all secondary microflora to die out leaving a single dominant species of yeast and a single dominant lactobacillus.
Dr.Wood says in his book (p10) that his starters contain 1 species of yeast and 2-4 different lactobacillus strains. Since he uses word 'strains' (not species) and single lactobacillus, he might be saying that all his starters are San-Fran type with different strains of that bacteria, Lb.sanfrancisco in each culture. Investigations of SanFran sourdough, for example, show that it has one species of yeast and 3 strains of Lb.san-francisco. German rye sour (Reinsuchsauerteige) has the same bacteria.
On the other hand, Dr.Wood was studying cultures under microscope in 1983, visually differentiating strains and species among microbes... and sourdough cultures must be studied differently, using genetic analysis, to differentiate species and strains within species. I.e. what he thought was one lactobacillus, could have been different species of lactobacilli .
Today there was a layer about 3/4" of liquid at the top. This was about 24 hours after the last feeding. I had left it because I wanted the acidity to rise, but no way of testing it as all Home Hardware stores were out of stock of litmus paper and the Rona's are about 45 minutes from me by car. About 2 hours ago I decided to bite the dust (what else to do?) and add 1 cup of flour and 3/4 cup of water (it doesn't say anything about pancake-batter consistency) and then split into two jars and see what happen.
I just found out that one Home Hardware store downtown might get the litmus paper in this evening and then I just found out The Big Carrot Dispensary (beside the main store) has litmus paper so I am going to head there. While there I am also going to get some spring water too. I am told 'Ice Age' brand is the best for this purpose.
Yeah, Ice Age is an extraordinary water brand. I haven't seen it in our stores, though.
good luck with lithmus paper : ) I got mine when it was sold by Efton Science supplies store, since then they closed.
Just make sure that the paper you buy distinguishes gradations among pH in the range 3.5-5.5, the most common in yeast and sourdough baking.
I just bought 2 1.5L bottles for $2.29 each of Ice Age water at the The Big Carrot on the Danforth, Toronto. Also in the Big Carrot dispensary across the way they had Alkazone pH Test Strips for water, package of 50, for $8.99. It tests from 3-10 in increments of 1. As soon as I bought it my phone rang and the Home Hardware store told me they got their pH test strips, but those are 10 for $6.99.
I immediately tested the 2 South Africa cultures when I got home. Both jars of South African culture tested at 3. I then tested tap water and it came out to 4. That doesn't seem right, does it? I thought tap water was closer to 7. I am hoping these test strips are working right but I don't know of anything really alkaline that I can test them with.
Given I fed the culture this morning I will do so in a couple hours again using the Ice Age water.
I did a google search and found out that bleach is supposed to test around 13. My testing kit only tests up to 10 and the bleach was a 10 so I guess the strips are working. I didn't know Toronto tap water was so acidic. I tested the Ice Age water and it too came out to 4.
Hi,
something is not right. Toronto water is not THAT acidic at all : ) It's pH is about 7.0, neutral. If you have distilled water nearby (of fresh milk), it should give you firm 7.0 on your test strips. Are you sure they are pH strips?
pH 4.0 is very sour, very. For example, buttermilk and cream cheese have pH about 4.8, so 4.0 is 10 times sourer. Even acidic plain yogurt is not as sour as 4.0. Its pH is only 4.2-4.9/
Sourness at pH 4.0 is like sour cherries, red plums, or grapefruit sour.
Just to prove I am not a total dimwit here are pics of the package I just took. I tested both tap water and Ice Age water twice. Both times they came in about the 2nd colour swatch from the bottom which is a pH of 4. Bleach tested right at the top (ie dark purple) which is 10, so I know it is working. Maybe it just doesn't test the lower end properly?
I just found out the the U of T Med School Bookstore has litmus paper and it is not expensive so I'll get some there to confirm.
I just fed my 2 starter jars with 1 cup each of fresh ground Red Fife whole wheat berries and 3/4 cup Ice Age water, but I am pretty well ready to throw in the towel on all of this. I am very technically-oriented and have never had a problem as frustrating as trying to make some plain old sourdough starter! Almost three weeks and nothing to show for it.
Thank you for the pictures!
I understand how you feel. I am sorry it is going so tough. My first attempt at activating this starter failed miserably. This time, however, it looks a bit more promising. I successfully activated all of sourdo.com starters, all of them, and this one seems to be the toughest one.
When I attempted to activate it first time, I also used Red Fife flour in every stage. But I was not tracking acidity. This time I used white all-purpose flour in the first step and it alleviated the problem of contamination. It GOT contaminated, but not from my flour : ) Probably from the flour that comes with the culture in the packet! And by the end of the 24hrs @32-34C it was flat and beautiful, fully acidic with proper aroma.
So I do understand how you feel and how emotionally invested you are in this thing. As you mentioned, this is a living matter, so timing for feedings must be just right, but not so much by the clock - by the proper condition of the microbial population and their milieu achieved on each stage. pH is very important, and temperature as well. Please acidify each step to the level of at least 4.5 before adding more food to your starter. I am not familiar with the brand of the test strips that you are using, but I assure you that water from the faucet in Toronto is not sour tasting like grapefruit juice, no way in has pH 4.0.
------
I am done with the stage 1 and 6 hours into stage 2 now. So far so good. This is what happened up untill now
1) I used white flour and Canadian Spring water to activate starter. 16 hours later, kept at 32-34C, it became very foamy and bubbly, smelling like warm milk.
By the 24 hr mark, it went flat, divine fragrance, smells like good yogurt. pH about 4.5 or somewhat lower.
2) stage 2. I added to it whole wheat flour and spring water. Now, 6 hours later @21C it tastes sour again, bright flavor of kefir (more acetic than lactic).
I will post more about this one, should it activate (or not) into a foamy culture.
best wishes,
mariana
Well today I had about an inch of liquid at the top of each jar and each jar smelled like beer. Not fragrant but not foul either. So I mixed it, discarded all but about a cup, added 1 cup of freshly ground red fife flour and 3/4 Ice Age water to each, mixed again, marked the high point on the outside of the jar with a felt pen and put the lids on loosely and placed them on the island in my 70F kitchen.
I'll keep repeating every 12 hours. I am not sure the pH test strips I am using are accurate given the reading I am getting for tap water. I am going to return them for refund. Also, I have posted below a picture of the reading I get for tap water following exactly the instructions on the package which are to leave the strip in the water for 2 seconds, shaking it off, then waiting 20 seconds. The result does not match the 7.0 pH reference colour which I have put the strip beside at all. If anything it's more like the 2 or 3 to me. When I tested the culture last night it definitely was a 3.
Btw, thanks for posting that picture of the pH testing strip you use. I used that picture to search where I could buy it. It is manufactured by microessentiallab.com and sells for $5.23 on their website but you have to order 5 minimum. amazon.ca does not have it but amazon.com does but they don't ship to Canada. So I googled the supplier to amazon and they do ship to Canada. It's $8.49 + $7.12 postage for a total of $15.61 USD. And because they send by USPS and it is under $40 Canada Post does not charge brokerage or taxes. I have emailed microessentiallab to see if anyone carries it in stock in the Toronto area or online in Canada and if not I will just order it online from the US. The link is below if anyone needs this.
http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/hydrion-ph-paper-range-3-0-5-5-single-roll-dispenser.html
Well 1-1/2 hours later there is already 1/4" of liquid at the top of each jar, so I guess it's not going to do any rising in this 12-hour period. This has happened the last 3 feedings. Do I just keep repeating the feeding every 12 hours. Is there any hope for this culture? When should I give up?
You have too much water in your starter. If you have access to kitchen scales, you should weigh your flour and water and mix them in equal amounts. For whole grains, it can take a little more water, but not the amount you're giving it. A cup of flour can be a huge range of weight, from 110g to 150g. On the flour bag I buy, it has a prescribed amount of 30g per 1/4 cup, which would be 120g per cup. Let's just go with that. Water has a weight of 236g per cup. So, when you mix 1 cup of flour to 3/4 cup of water, you are getting a hydration of 177/120, which turns out to be 147.5% hydration! With that much water, you will always see separation, or a layer of water. If you pack your flour down, and happen to get around 150g per cup, you get 118% hydration. That would be okay for whole grains, but still more than you need.
Another thing that is happening is that you are underfeeding your starter. It needs several times its weight in new food every day. For instance, my starter, when kept at about 70F gets fed at a ratio of 1:2:2 of starter:flour:water by weight- twice a day. That means that for every 10g of starter, it gets 40g of new flour and water, for a 12 hour period. Of course, if your ambient temperature is higher, it will take more. And, when using whole grain flour, it will eat more. While we're on the subject of weight, yours is much more than you need. You can reduce it down to a smaller size, so that you're not throwing so much money away every day with discards. So, if you must measure with cups, maybe use a feeding ratio of 1Tbsp starter to 1/4 cup flour and 2Tbsp water, every twelve hours.
If you want to keep the ratio down to encourage a single dominant species, or something like that, you then need to increase the frequency of the meals, so the culture still gets enough to eat in a day. When you get the mix of water and flour corrected, you will be able to see it rising and falling with fermentation. Right now, that is an impossibility. It's too wet to hold enough structure to trap air. When you see it rise to its highest point, feed it again, however long that is. If you want it to be more acidic, you can wait until it has just begun to fall from the peak height, then feed it.
That is very informative and makes total sense, thanks so much.
But, I was just going by the 'South Africa Instructions', ie 3/4 cup of whole wheat flour and 1 cup of water. I would have thought that if it should really be weighed that Mr Wood would have prescribed that given he even supplies special instructions for this starter. I do have a digital scale that measures is g/oz/kg and just weighed the flour. A cup of this Red Fife flour weighs 160g while the 3/4 cup of water I was using weighs 200g. so that was 200/160 or 125% hydration. So I will change to 160g flour and 160g water and see what happens.
Also, I just noticed that the Classic Sourdough book does have the weights shown for adding the flour (140g) and water (up to 180ml which equals 180g). The printed instructions do not. Of course that is for white flour but it is a high hydration of 180/140 = 129% if one used the entire 180g of water. I was getting liquid on the top with both the Ischia and Camaldoli all the time and was even reducing the water as I noticed the Arva Mills hard white flour I was using required less water when I was making my usual pizza dough and bread with instant yeast. I figure it has more moisture in it because it had been recently milled.
As for how much starter you feed, are you weighing that starter each time in a new jar or how else do you know how much you have in the jar? Also, you say feed twice a day. Is that twice in 24 hours, ie every 12 hours as the instructions say, or twice during the day, ie every 6 hours?
When should I give up?
NEVER
and that's why :)
Hi! thanks for the update. I was waiting for it!
Please, don't guess about future rising of the starter by the liquid on the top. It has nothing to do with the culture and it has to do with your flour. It means that you need to pour off that excess of liquid, for it exceeds your flour's water absorption capacity. Red Fife doesn't absorb as much water as modern Canadian wheat varieties, such as used in RobinHood Best For Bread Whole Wheat flour.
In essence, the previous step demonstrated that there was 1 inch worth of excess of water in the mix and you needed to pour it off and add a bit less water on this step (or more flour).
So either pour off excess of liquid you see now, and discard it, if your flour is incapable of absorbing that much... or pour it off, collect it, add flour to it, to make pancake batter consistency and return to the jar, mix well.
Remember that before pursuing RISING of the starter (yeast development), Dr.Wood asks us to obtain high acidity at high temperature (bacterial development). At least pH around 4.0 for whole wheat batter at 32C, and should taste acidic as well. Pronounced acidic taste, however long that takes. Only then add more food to the jar with the culture and shift temperature to the lower end of the interval, to 21-24C.
His recommendations are based on this chart
Where you can see that he pursues first speedy bacterial propagation in the culture between 30-35C, when lactic bacteria multiplicate at full capacity and produce lactic and acetic acid at maximum capacity
Only then, after this stage is complete and the batter is sour and safe (protected from contamination), he asks us to shift to the lower end, around 21-25C where yeast is reproducing at near maximum speed and out-paces bacterial reproduction and bacterial activity.
Please, account for that information when you proceed later on. OK? Whole wheat liquid starter should ferment at about 27-29C during propagation of the culture and reach TTA of 11-12, pH of about 3.9-4.2.
Mine is 50-50 mix of white flour and whole wheat flour right now and it should reach TTA of about 8. I am still waiting for the second step to end, because my batter now, 18 hrs long, only shows TTA of 5.6, pH about 4.0. I think by 2 PM it will be ready. Fully activated.
Right now it looks like that
best wishes,
mariana
Honestly I have to say your last post has now confused me more than ever. I just mixed one jar, poured off all but 80g and added 160g of red fife flour and 160g of water and mixed it according to your 1:2:2 instructions. Was I not supposed to do that? Am I supposed to put it back in the proofing box now?
The other instructions and graphs bewilder me (and I have an engineering degree). I don't even have proper pH strips to test it.
I think I need more one-by-one instructions. Like do this, report, receive instructions, now do this, report, receive further instructions because your instructions are totally at odds with his.
I am ready to give up. Ed Wood's instructions have a LOT to be desired. Mostly all the info you provide is not provided by him anywhere.
And what is TTA? I have never heard that term before. And how do I even test for it?
TTA is total titratable acidity.
pH measures how sour substance is, i.e. how much STRONG acid (dissociated, free H+ ions) substance contains.
TTA measures total acid content, i.e. all acids in substance, both weak and strong.
two starters with the same pH will have different TTA, depending on the buffering capacity of the flour and length of fermentation. .Whole wheat has very high buffering capacity, so even once it reaches pH of 4.0 it can stay there forever, still having quite low TTA, not high enough for the starter to be safe and proper.
There are numbers that bread technologists use to determine whether their starter is ripe, fully active to inoculate sponge or bread dough. So I gave you those numbers.
so if you measure your batter's pH and it is 4.0, but doesn't taste sharp sour, your TTA is not there yet. My second step batter reached pH 4.0 at 12 hr mark, but sourness was barely detectable. So I checked TTA and it was only 4, and it should be 8 for 50-50 white -whole wheat mix. When it reached 6, the sourness was already nicely detectable and flavour (odor) changed too. Weak organic acids are necessary for full taste and aroma of sourdough.
TTA is very VERY easy to measure, but why don't you first get pH right, ok? I got my kit for TTA measurement from wine and beer making supply store. Kipling subway stn. It looks like that
http://www.dannyswineandbeer.com/buy/acid-test-kit-for-wine
Being an engineer myself, I like to have numerical criteria for readiness of the starter or culture, so I track acidity and acid load, and it helps me activate cultures in record times.
thanks,
mariana
and ph at the same time what difference do you get in the readings?
If this one fails, we can always give this a try. Or yiu could do it at the same time. You can't get more simple that this - Thanks to Not Mini Oven's Ancient Starter Method.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32665/mini-ovens-no-muss-no-fuss-starter-8-days-laater
Happy baking
O! I never would tell you to feed 1:2:2 when activating dried culture. That was another person.
You can feed your STARTER, when you have a starter, that abundantly. But when you activate dry culture, you must follow instructions for culture activation, not for the starter (WHICH ALREADY HAS ESTABLISHED CULTURE).
You started this conversation by asking a bit of advice, because you didn't get the info from Dr.Wood personally or from his website. Now you feel that because the information you see here you didn't get from Dr.Wood you can't use it? I don't know what to say to that.
He wrote a book about his experiences and among printouts, brochures, his books and website pages he dispersed plenty of information about rules of good culture management. However, his focus was more on his experiences, not on writing a scientific manual on sourdough microflora and its habits.
So for those who are already well versed in microbiology of sourdough, his materials ARE complete, fully informative. But for the newbies it might not be enough or too much, especially because even limited amount of information seems too much to them and they skip steps of forget some aspect of the process.
This is to say that it is not me, but dr.Wood who says put your culture back in the proofing box, if it separated at the bottom or in the middle in the first 24 hours, and keep it there, until you get high acidity (low pH, very sour taste). This is the one by one instruction : ) Just leave it there for 24 hrs at 30-35C.
Please, do not give up. You have good bacteria in your culture. My packet is super old, bought years ago and I managed to activate it. You sure will too. The microbes are there, they just wait for proper conditions to show up.
best wishes,
mariana
I am talking not about the dried culture just out of the package but of the culture I have now (ie the dried stuff that I added water and flour to and kept in the proofing box for 24 hours at 90F and then took out into the 70F environment and then developed the water on the bottom, then on the top.) You said I was feeding too much water and to switch to 1:1 flour: water and that the ratio should be 1:2:2 culture:flour:water, so I did that. Now it seems I shouldn't have.
I am not saying the info I am getting here I can't use. I was merely making the observation that it is new and I am confused by your instructions. I greatly appreciate your info and have been following every step you have told me but your last post got me confused. What exactly am I to do now?
Right now I have one jar that has 80g of starter/culture (whatever you call it) in the bottom along with 160 g of red fife flour and 160g of water mixed into it.
I mixed the liquid on the surface of the other jar into the jar and it's just sitting there about 1/2 full.
Should I put both jars back in the proofing box?
As for Ed Wood, if he is going to sell cultures to people he should sell them with proper instructions and if not then tell people they should be well versed in the microbiology of sourdough starters as his information will only be complete for people who have that knowledge. That basically rules out anyone who has never activated a culture before or aren't experts.
I never skipped one single step. Ed Wood even acknowledged that actually, but then suggested 90F an oven with a proof feature verified by a thermometer might be the problem which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Anyway, I did it both ways with the two cultures I tried to activate before, proof in the oven and proof in a proofing box. Regardless of that nothing is an excuse for then asking further questions of me and then simply ignoring me when I kept asking him to kindly reply (after giving him many days to respond). If you are going to sell products to customer at least have the human decency, kindness and morality to respond to them if they ask questions, not to mention business sense. I have no respect for him at all. He left me high and dry. If it weren't for you I would have just tossed this out a few days ago. But I have now spent countless hours, money and a ton of flour following instructions which simply don't work.
But anyway, I would appreciate it if you would tell me exactly what to do.
Also, with respect to the instruction of 'dr.Wood who says put your culture back in the proofing box, if it separated at the bottom or in the middle in the first 24 hours, and keep it there, until you get high acidity (low pH, very sour taste). I see that nowhere in his South Africa Instructions. What page is it on?
I see nowhere that I am supposed to taste (ie with my tongue ) the culture.
I see nowhere that the flour and water ratio should be equal, only volumes are provided.
Also, my culture did not separate in the bottom or middle in the first 24 hours. You can see that in my first post. It separated only a few hours after it was taken out. And then after the first feeding the liquid was at the top not the bottom so that advice to put it back into the proofing box wouldn't have even applied to me if I saw it.
Also I still don't know what TTA is or how to test for it.
It seems that there is a misunderstanding. I never said to feed 1:2:2 or 1:1 water: flour, OK. That's another person up there in the thread who was talking not about culture activation and not about anything from Ed Wood, but about his own starter.
Right now you don't have a starter. That is the issue, right? You have a culture that is not activated yet. For if it was, then you would see something like that on the second day of activation of the culture:
So, please,
- whip your batter, at least for 1 min on high speed, to aerate it very well,
- put your jar(s) with culture into proof box,
- keep at 30-35C until you see that,
OK? It will happen at most within 12 hours, but might take up to 24, as Dr.Wood writes in his book.
the suggestion about witnessing separation at the bottom or in the middle of the fermenting culture and placing it back to proof at 90 degrees F is on p 3 of the South African culture manual. For as long as it is not highly acidic and doesn't smell like yogurt, it is not there yet to start propagating yeast in it, to feed it or to lower its temperature.
Well... he says on p 28. High...temperature promotes the growth of the lactobacilli and ... increases acid production. High acidity helps prevent contamination of the culture by non-sourdough organisms.
He implies that we need massive amount of acid accumulated by the end of the hot stage of activation, and 'high acidity' for a layperson is a synonym of sourness, determined by sniffing and tasting substance. For a more 'analytical' person it means certain pH and certain TTA. OK?
I don't want to discuss his choices of wording or writing style. It is all there (necessary information). He simply does his best, I guess, as we all do.
I am glad he was brave enough to share his knowledge and his cultures with us, despite lack of writing finesse, teaching skills or exemplary customer service delivery. His methods and his starters are all amazing. We will descipher his 'code', don't worry. That';s why we are here on the forum, together.
thanks,
mariana
You're right about the 1:2:2, etc. You have been the only one replying to me for the last day or so and I forgot to read the name on the post, sorry.
I did have what I see in your picture within a few hours after taking the original culture out of the proofing box and feeding it, ie rose about 3 inches within just a few hours. So, I would have thought that was an activated culture no? But, then when I fed it the next time with the flour and water that was instructed in the booklet I ended up getting liquid on the bottom and the level of the culture had lowered back to what it was in the beginning. That's when I posted the original message here as it did not also smell foul. Any reasonable person would think it was not contaminated given it did not meet both tests. Also, even if it did, there is a big may in there, ie may be contaminated, not for sure But then I was also told by someone on here was that it wasn't hooch but 'liquid'. So it didn't look like the test applied at all. But then the liquid was on the top after the second feeding not the bottom, and so the test was not met at all (ie the hooch or liquid or whatever it is/was was on the top, not middle or bottom and it did not smell foul). So, that's why I am saying no where does the booklet say in my situation that I should put it in the box. I guess maybe the booklet should be revised to cover my situation, no? Otherwise how would any reasonable person be expected to follow some procedure in the booklet where it does not seem to apply? Again, we don't all have microbiology degrees and he is selling this stuff to the general public, many of whom are neophytes.
But you are saying I should regardless, so I will. But should I also fill the jar to the top with warm water as he instructs, etc? ie follow all the steps in the 'Washing a Culture' paragraph.
Also, when I start feeding again outside the proofing box, just how much culture should i leave in the jar by weight and how much red fife flour and water should i feed it by weight?
I would have thought I could get sick tasting something that wasn't at the acidity it should be yet and therefore maybe have bacteria in it that is harmful. So actually tasting it was the last thing from my mind. And, so, if it is not a risk then informing someone to taste it might be a good instruction. After all, he does say to smell, so why not taste too? Simple.
So I take it I don't fill the jar with warm water even though he instructs to do so in the paragraph you referenced? How do I know when to ignore his instructions and when not to?
There is no need to fill the jar with water, because if fact you have been diluting (overfeeding) your culture all this time with excess of water and flour, never quite getting it to the point of necessary acidity. The fault is not yours, it happened because the multiplicity of instructions is confusing, one doesn't really know which ones to follow :(
I understand.
So your culture is diluted. Just place it to ferment for 12-24 hrs at 30-35C. Now.
Next, feed it and attempt to ferment for 12 hrs at 21C. If it doesn't reach pH and TTA, sourness and fragrance of a sourdough starter, foaming head, etc. then move that same jar into hot spot to continue forcing acid production for 12 more hours.
Again attempt to feed and ferment for 12 hrs at 21C... etc.
This will very quickly adjust all the parameters, required from a great culture and you will be done, God willing, by tomorrow evening. Or the day after tomorrow, the latest.
if you wish, subject only one jar to this process, and continue doing whatever you were doing with the other one, as a backup and test of Dr.Wood's protocol as you understood it.
Let's be kind to the writer, Dr Wood is in his mid-eighties, if not in his nineties today. It's hard to expect a vigorous correspondence and fresh editions of materials written long time ago from a widowed man so busy at his advanced age. I am actually afraid that one day we won't have access to his cultures no more. That would be a disaster , for me at least. His cultures are phenomenally good and varied.
PS. mine (my South African culture) is fully activated, took 46 hrs from packet to starter!. Thank you so much of your thread... Your problem was akin to mine , same culture, same instructions... and discussing it with your helped me figure out what parameters to control within the letter or Dr.Wood's instructions, to avoid the trap that I fell in the last time I attempted to activate whole grain based culture from South Africa. THANK YOU.
best wishes,
mariana.
LOL, I cannot believe I helped you at all! All the help was from you to me. Thank you.
You say that ' If it doesn't reach pH and TTA'. Well I cannot test that as I don't have the means. I will test the pH but given these strips test water at 4 or less I am not convinced they even work properly.
But, just to confirm, how much starter should I leave in the jar and how much flour and water (all by weight) should I feed it each time? For some reason, with each starter all I've been getting is liquid on the top (except once on the bottom) using the recommended amounts in the instructions.
As for Mr. Wood, I see no reason to be kind. He asked me 3 times to explain my procedure within 3 days. I gave him prompt replies in detail. Then he made the wild suggestion that the proof function on my $7,000 oven was the problem even though it was confirmed by thermometer and when I used my proofing box I had the same result. Then he asked another question to which I replied to. Then he went silent for 3 days and I let that go and sent him my next starter experiment with his South Africa culture and even a picture. He ignored that email too. I sent him another email 2 days later asking if he would kindly reply. He ignored that too. Why ask questions of your customers only to ignore their replies and then ignore them even when they ask if you could kindly reply?
Yes I thought his book and observations were great too. I am sorry his wife passed away. He has done a lot of great research. But Mr. Wood runs a business. He takes customer's money. He shouldn't treat anyone the way he has me. You don't just abandon them after making them think you actually have some customer support and leave them high and dry by suddenly ignoring them. It takes only a few minutes to respond. Shame on him.
Sorry, I though you got that pH test paper from UofT or from Home Hardware today.
Then there is no recourse but to hold for 12 hrs @ 29-32 what you have now in a jar and then feed and hold for 12hrs @21-24C. See how it behaves during cold phase, so to speak and either move it to the hot zone again without feeding, of feed and keep at 21-24C again to test for foaming and nice fragrance. OK?
Feeding should be done as in the book: half a jar of starter plus cup of flour and 3/4 cup water, which in grams looks like that
450g starter + 300g fresh dough (120g whole wheat flour+180g clean water)
If I were you, I'd abstain from freshly milled wheat flour in starter. Freshly milled rye is the best for starters, but freshly milled wheat - not so much, due to the fact that it doesn't yet have gluten strong enough to expand under gas pressure or to resist proteolysis (degradation of gluten with time). Gluten in wheat ages, matures with time (oxydizes) and become strong.
Keep your freshly milled RedFife for breads, and use strongest WWF for culture activation and starter development - refreshments, etc. where you judge your progress by increase in volume and thick layers of foam on top.
KAF tested the difference between dough from freshly ground wheat kernels that they mill for flour and dough from properly aged whole wheat flour that they sell and the difference in volume of dough and bread is quite striking. I.e. you simply won't get the results with culture activation that you want to get unless you use aged flour with mature gluten
source: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2010/10/
The strongest that you could probably have from a regular grocery store is RobinHood whole wheat best for bread flour
.
From health food store - something from hard wheat (not heirloom).
best wishes,
mariana
I do have the pH paper which I bought at the Big Carrot Dispensary as I reported before. I don't have the means to test TTA though.
Are you now suggesting that I switch from the Red Fife to white flour? Because first you said '450g starter + 300g fresh dough (120g whole wheat flour+180g clean water)' and then in the next line you said 'If I were you, I'd abstain from freshly milled wheat flour in starter.' Should I now switch to one of those or am I supposed to stick with the whole wheat since that is what I have been using?
Also now you say 'Then there is no recourse but to hold for 12 hrs @ 29-32' but before you said wait up to 24 hours. Should I go with one of those or am I supposed to stick with the whole wheat since that is what I have been using?
(see why I get confused?)
I have Arva Mills Daisy Hard Winter unbleached white flour and I have organic rye berries that I can mill if I should be switching.
Below is a pic of what the two jars look like now after 18 hours in the proofing box at 90F. The left one I merely stirred vigorously before putting in and the right one I had already poured out all but 80g and then used a 1:2:2 culture:flour:water mixture before putting in because I erroneously thought that other guy's post was yours. Neither has really risen much but there seems to be some kind of activity at the top layer as it's a slightly different colour. The top line is where the level was when I put it in the proofing box. (They are now back in btw)
Quite frankly, with all the instructions I have been getting I haven't a clue what to do now, sorry!
Left one from top.
Right one from top.
Sorry it seems you can't edit after posting (or can you?). The paragraph that reads:
Also now you say 'Then there is no recourse but to hold for 12 hrs @ 29-32' but before you said wait up to 24 hours. Should I go with one of those or am I supposed to stick with the whole wheat since that is what I have been using?
Should read:
Also now you say 'Then there is no recourse but to hold for 12 hrs @ 29-32' but before you said wait up to 24 hours. Did you mean hold for 12 -24 hours? They've been in 18 now.
Ok well 2 days later and 4 feedings and nothing has happened except I don't get any liquid at the top anymore and the it doesn't smell as 'beer-y' and a bit more fragrant. But there is no rise at all. Not sure what to do.
Feed it white flour instead now? Keep going? Give up? I've gone through SO much flour in these 3 weeks trying to get these 3 cultures activated. Maybe I just got bum cultures from Ed Wood.
I think I'll feed some white flour for another couple days and if that doesn't work then I'm just going to chuck these babies. I can't believe I've spent a month already in vain.
stop feeding the starters.
What temperature are your starters, day and night?
70F as per Ed Wood's instructions.
Get the starters up to 75°F. Have you got some older starters set aside anywhere? Ones that you stopped feeding and were waiting to trash?