This Community Bake will be featuring one of our very own; the "Baguette Baker Extraordinaire", Alan, aka alfanso. He is among a handful of fine baguette bakers on TFL who have spent years concentrating on baguettes, alfanso's favored craft, and his baguettes are consistently outstanding and consistently consistent.. Consistence and repeatability, coupled with breads that visually signify a particular baker are the hallmark of excellence. When viewing an image of any of Alan's baguettes, those that have been around for a while know exactly who baked the bread. We are fortunate to have him on the forum.
We have extracted the bakes of 4 participating bakers and present it in PDF form
Attention New Readers:
Although the Community Bake started some time back, it is still active. New participants are welcomed to join in at any time! It's constantly monitored and help of any kind is still available.
For those that are not familiar with Alan and his baguettes check out his blog.
Since the Covid Pandemic many new bakers have joined the forum. For those that are not familiar with our Community Bakes (CB) see THIS LINK. It should give you an idea of the concept and how things work.
Alan supplied the following information as a guide line to the bake. There are links below with additional resources. Alan's choice of baguette for the CB is Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat, by Jeffrey Hamelman. Jeffrey Hamelman recently retired as Head Baker at the King Arthur Flour Company. His book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, 2nd Edition" is considered a "must have" by most of the bakers on this forum.
Alan writes:
I’ve attached the formula and some photos of my most recent bake of this bread. It is another really easy to manipulate bread that has a fantastic taste, but is not too heavy on the whole grain side. 1250g is a nice amount to create 4 "comfortable sized" baguettes.
I’ve simplified the formula a little by converting it from a 60% hydration to a 100% hydration levain.
Mr. Hamelman uses the term “Bread Flour” but in our realm this really means a standard AP flour with a similar protein profile to King Arthur AP flour, 11.7% protein.
This dough can also be mixed mechanically if you have neither developed the skills nor have the desire to mix by hand."
NOTE - for those using home milled flour a tweak may be necessary. Whole grain (100% extraction) will absorb quite a bit more water than white flour as well as commercial whole wheat flour. Since I used home milled grain, it was necessary to add more water before the dough became extensible enough to slap and fold. I estimate the water added was approximately 28 grams which brought the hydration to ~72%. I should have taken my own advice and measured the additional water, but I didn’t. For those using home milled grains, if would be helpful if you reported the extra water necessary to do the Slap & Folds. See THIS TECHNIQUE.
Additional Resources
- Shaping and scoring Maurizio’s baguettes
- Scoring and baking Hamelman’s pain au levain with mixed SD starters
- Shaping and scoring Bouabsa baguettes (still in my infancy, they’ve come a long way since then!)
- Martin Philip shaping and baking baguettes
- Jeffrey Hamelman shapes baguettes
Everyone is welcomed. Both expert and novice can learn and improve their baking skills by participating and sharing their experience. Make sure to post your good, bad, and ugly breads. We learn much more from our failures, than we do from our successes.
Danny
A late addition -
In Alan’s reply below he reminded us that this is not a competition. The goal of every Community Bake is to learn from one another. There are no losers, only winners. Each and every participant should become a better baguette baker with the help of others.
The shaping looks so elegant, slender and uniform. You’re getting great ears with these and I agree, the darker tips taste good. Even with my not French flour I’ve enjoyed the dark pointy tips, it’s one of the reasons I keep trying to get the torpedo shape, I like the taste of the darkly baked tips. The crumb looks great and has a nice sheen.
Don, the new shaping sure looks good!
” The crumb was nice and open for going from the fridge to the oven in less than an hour.” Are you saying that after the BF was complete, the dough shaped then refrigerated for only 1 hr, then baked?
The bulk was 17 hours in the fridge. Then divided and rested for 15 minutes and proofed for 40 minutes before baking. I have never retarded shaped batons.
Don, what would you estimate to rise increase when removing from the 17 hr retard?
I’ll be baking a couple today...
I retard in the square 2 qt Cambro and 500 grams of flour will hopefully stay below the middle rim. If it goes above that I fold it again in the fridge and it settles down after that. I shoot for about a 40% increase overall.
When I see the dough start to move or relax after the pre-shape which is about 15 or 20 minutes is when I shape. I would say they puff up about 50% in the couche. The finger poke test works well for me with batons and when I see gray air pockets inside I usually put them in the oven. I start preheating the oven when I take the dough out of the fridge and they end up going in the oven around an hour later.
Lately I have been using an OXO triple timer that counts forward for hours on all my breads and I just start it when water meets flour. It has really been helpful for a forgetful baker like me.
I want that shattering crust....mmmmm
VERY nice bake! Do you mind sharing the formula?? I am getting back into baking and going full force with baguettes.
John
John, there are so many post. It’s difficult to know which formula you are looking for. Please post a link or a name of the formula you want.
Used Louis Lamour’s formula and T80. It was a quickie bake. I have been busy with the outdoor project, but needed bread.
I am coming to the conclusion that T80 is not suited for baguettes. Neither the texture or flavor was nearly as nice as T65. So, Bake # 25 will use T65 and KA AP (50/50). What to see what that combo will produce.
Boy! French flour is humbling. I finally nailed the baguettes (image below) using American flours, but got super spoiled for texture and flavor with French flours. But, I shall persevere...
It sure was nice to pull breads like these out of the oven. Oh well, “C’est la vie”.
Bake #25 just came out of the oven. Will post soon...
The two in the last photo really are perfection in baguettes.
Benny, how I wished I could turn out baguettes like that with T65!
Dan you will get there, it is humanly possible you will I’m confident of that.
Sure get a kick out of you drillbit loaves. The top one has great grigne. Yeah this flour is better IMHO for a pain de compangne - makes a good s sourdough batard or boule btw. I think its a nice addition to change things up.
Geremy, you areright. The T80 will be saved for more hearty breads.
Are you sure the flour is T80? I sifted it and came up with very large particles of bran and a fair amount of it. Could it be a flour of higher ash content?
From central milling and it similar in bran content so thats my only point of reference. Seems to me that above T70 we start to see bran. Also I confirmed with l'epicerie.com the mislabelled 65 was indeed T80. they knew about the gaf and as such sent a freebie 44lb replacement - was a nice guesture eh ?
That’s a super nice gesture, good company to deal with.
Both of these breads came out lovely. The bottom pic makes me think that you went fishing and landed a few narwhals. Is it the photo or are both of these lacking the typical sheen that steaming produces?
Just for clarity - the upper 2 pics are from the T80 run and the lower pic is from some American T65 flour?
I take "exception" to your "T80 is not suited for baguettes" line. Depends on what type of baguette one wishes to produce. If it is a baguette de tradition, then you have a valid point. But as you well know I'll take pretty much any formula and turn it into a baguette. To me, the baguette is the form, and not the formula. Not an admonishment, rather an update to your statement.
Alan, the 2 baguettes in the top two images are made with T80. The bottom image of the very picturesque baguettes were made much earlier (Bake # 13) using KA AP and Bouabsa’s formula.
As far as the dry and not shiny crust; I seem to have a problem with my oven consistently producing that. Blisters are also a rare occurrence for me. I have the ability to fill my entire kitchen with steam. Really wished I could figure that one out.
Yes, when I say (IMO) that T80 is not ideal for baguettes only traditional baguettes are considered.
I whipped up a couple of demis with this floue when I recieved it - to verify my suspicions and couse what I got was a dark crumb and as Dan alludes - not the expected flavor. but what I noticed was really nice crumb and crust which grew on me - good flour just different -
That reminds me of the flour I purchased that was labeled T55 but definitely had bran in it, quite visible bran.
I suppose if the mineral content comes out to the appropriate level then maybe it could indeed be T55 with bran. In this case that Dan and I are discussing well I have purchase a boat load of flour from lepicerie.com and know what to expect. Btw still havent tried the Canadian T55 but very eager. It's a really malty smelling flour so cannot wait !
Tried 50/50 T65 and KA AP. The dough was stronger, but the flavor wasn’t there. I will say the crust and crumb was excellent!
Used Louis Lamour’s formula again. Didn’t refrigerate. Crumb had a great texture but was tight (too much proofing?).
It is a huge let down eating a sub-par baguette after you’ve had a great French Flour version. I am permanently ruined...
Theres a reason why the French arw renowned for their bread. Now you know and also a little cursed. Sorry Danno :/
Flour from 2 continents lost in translation. That's a strange crumb for you, almost honeycomb lacy. Maybe the gluten was over developed or the dough was degassed too much. I would be tempted to use more water next time. The outside appearance of your brown barber shop poles in the previous bakes show really nice hand work to get that even shape and those grand, symmetrical ears.
My stash of The Flour is too precious to introduce it to other flours. It will be flying solo. I did get my hands on some Guisto 00 pizza flour which is their version of European flour. I am going to give it a go this weekend to compare it to the magic dust.
Sure, I've baked this probably dozens of times now. But I have been taking to heart the chatter and conversations offered in the CB to try and up my game, as we all have. Decided to keep these as long batards as I had enough changes incorporated without the added attempt at the longer shape. These are 14 inches long.
The Hamelman Semolina here is
So, what am I doing differently this time? It is rare that I do a 3 stage build for the levain in 15 hrs, but I did here and the dough seemed to like it. I returned to withholding the salt until post-autolyse, kept my French Folds down to 75, a 5 min. rest and 50 more, and used a new method for pre-shaping. I've also been shaping directly out of BF instead of somewhere halfway through retard.
The dough exhibited its typical dry "ropey" first FFs, but after relaxing and organizing for 5 minutes, it became more malleable. By the first LF at 40 min., it was a nice and easy dough to work.
During BF I was impressed at how this dough "puffed up" seemingly way more than in the past, most easily "told" to me by the dough itself during the LFs.
No retard prior to divide and shape. 20 min. rest in pre-shape form before final shaping. I really like the pre-shape method that Abel Sierra uses here, and am mimicking it now. Shaping was easy and the dough was completely compliant. Thanks to the goons here on this CB, I also feel as though my shaping has improved.
Well, my run was a second effort in three days because the breads that I baked the other day for neighbors suffered from a boneheaded move on my part. After loading the dough and steaming the oven, for the first time ever, I neglected to shut to oven door completely and didn't notice for the first 6 minutes. The temp had dropped to 350 and the steam previously produced had escaped. As it turned out the neighbors and their guests didn't mind, and the one baguette that we kept for ourselves tasted just fine.
In comparison to today's bake, the differences are stark. Dull finish and the ears barely lifted off the surface of the dough. The scores did widen nicely but did not "burst" as those today did. The crumb on this bake was lighter and more open.
420g on the left, 325g on the right.
Wow those are stunners Alan. I’ll have to watch Abel’s shaping and pre-shaping in that video you linked to, but you sure produced perfect baguettes in my book. Your first set there have better ears than the best I’ve produced. I do still want to get there, hopefully I will. Once I get there I will try a coating of sesame seeds because everything is better with sesame seeds on it.
making improvements. Never stop learning...So far in the very few pre-shapes I've done in his style, I like what I see. The sesame seed coating is really easy to do.
Thank, alan
Can you explain how you don't get the seeds inside the slashes? Eye appeal is buy appeal! I bet a bakery could charge $2.00 more a piece for these bad boys! Well done!
They are moistened by rolling on a wet paper towel and then rolled in sesame seeds before putting on the couche.
thanks, alan
After a number of trials that made small changes (all of which produced worse results than without the changes) I tried something new - putting the retard in a different place in the process. This was a case where I ran a 10 hr autolyse at 40°F and 60% hydration with no levain or salt (combined for 5 min @ speed 1 on the Famag IM-5 spiral mixer). The levain (12% PFF) was then added and mixed in for 5 minutes at speed 1. Then the remaining water was mixed in to bring the hydration to 69% and 1.5% salt was added during a 10 min mix at speed 1 followed by 1 minute at speed 4. The dough had no diastatic malt or nutritional yeast. The flour was ~13% protein, bleached, enriched, with ascorbic acid added. Dough temperature at completion of the bassinage was 67.4°F. Bulk fermentation was 4:30 with dough temperature rising to 74°F (warm day).
Divide and shape was an attempt to minimize manipulation so followed Abel's guidance. A 30 minute rest was followed by two folds and rolling to size (20") using as little flour as I could arrange. Final proof was about 2:00 at room temperature followed immediately by baking for 17 minutes without any chilling to stiffen up the dough.
Slashing was not easy even going quickly as the blade wanted to drag - and I was not going deep. But the ears came out quite well and the crumb is about the best I have achieved so far. These are large for baguettes at 425g but I think that is a contributor to the ears since the oven spring generates a lot of diameter increase which really helps break open the slash and push up the ear. Good color without adding diastatic malt. And the dough exhibited nice extensibility which I attribute to the long cold autolyse. The baguette that I sliced open was not as uniform in diameter as I would like, but I know what I did during pre-shaping that precipitated a big lump in the middle and I think I can do better next time. And the crumb in the tips of the cut loaf are a little tight for reasons I understand and should be able to correct with more practice.
Really good looking baguettes you’re making Doc. Your shaping even using a new technique looks great and you have gotten the ears down now too. I have baguette dough in cold retard to bake tomorrow afternoon. I think I’ll watch Abel’s video before I do pre-shaping and give his technique a try. It did appear to be a simpler method than what I’ve been doing. This batch I’ve bulk fermented to only a 30% aliquot jar rise before cold retard hoping for better oven spring and to get some ears.
Instead of making three loaves, make two with one at >425g and the other at 250-300g. Then see if you observe a significant difference in the ears between the two.
In theory, there is an optimum temperature for a pre-bake retard where the yeast still produces a relatively large amount of CO2 but most of it goes into solution (since the solubility of CO2 is so much higher in cold water than in room temperature water). If you can let it saturate the dough with CO2 before you bake it, you will get both blisters and a lot of oven spring. But you are also running up against the boundary where the dough begins to seriously leak CO2 through the surface. The temperature and time for this targeted retard is a strong function of the temperature sensitivity of the yeast so you will have to play with it in your specific case. I am setting the retarder at 38°F and that is not warm enough yet.
They look good inside and out. How did the dough feel after a 10 autolyse? Just how many speeds does this mixer have? I like the color better on these. You should try the burnt ends sometime, it tastes like BBQ
The flour is a pretty strong flour so while I am a little surprised that there was such a significant change in dough behavior, the mixing was substantially different from what I have used in the past as well. The Famag mixers have a continuously variable speed control that is labeled 1-10 with no stops along the way. The motor controller is a fully digital variable speed driver. As a result it provides both high torque and high efficiency at low speed (as opposed to a KA mixer). To keep the cost down there is only one motor and the mixing helix rotates at a fixed multiple of the bowl speed. As best I can figure out an industrial spiral mixer has a fixed bowl speed and generally a few (often two) spindle speeds where the high speed is perhaps twice the speed of the low speed.
Since I am baking in a convection oven, it would be really hard to get burnt ends.
The top two are sterling with a lot of good lift-off from the surface of the bloom. Shaping is really good and consistent, now avoiding the barbell end syndrome, and the open crumb is first class. The crust is quite thin from what I can see.
Also employing the Philippe Gosselin overnight cold autolyse he uses in his baguettes a l'ancienne. This is a great dough for open crumb. As demonstrated here.
Any reason to have used bleached flour?
That was what I had a 25 lb bag of.
I went back and looked at David Snyder's reconstruction of Philippe Gosselin's formula with levain and with the exception of his 20% PFF and my 12% PFF they are amazingly close and entirely by accident. I am using higher protein flour and no commercial yeast, but it is nice to stumble into a formula with a history of success.
Back again with another set of baguettes again using Abel’s formula which I’ve made a few minor changes to over time. Here is my current formula.
For three baguettes about 280 g (to account for aliquot jar)
Total Flour
Total Dough Weight (g)
900.3
Prefermented
9.09%
Total Formula
Liquid Levain
Final Dough
Ingredients
%
Grams
%
Grams
Ingredients
Grams
Total Flour
100.00%
522.5
100.00%
47.5
Final Flour
475
AP Flour/T55
100%
522.5
100%
47.5
AP Flour/T55
475
Strong Bread Flour
0%
0
0%
0.0
Bread Flour
0
Water
67%
353.5
100%
47.5
Water
Autolyse (93%)
0.00%
0.0
0%
0.0
Autolyse(cool)
306
Final (7%)
0.00%
0.0
0%
0.0
Bassinage(v cool)
0
IDY
0.07%
0.38
IDY
0.38
Diastatic Malt Powder
1%
5.22
Malt
5.22
Salt
1.80%
9.38
Salt
9.38
Starter (in final dough)
2.20%
11.5
24%
11.5
Levain
95
Totals
176.89%
900.3
224%
106.5
900.3
I dissolve the levain, diastatic malt and IDY in the water and then add flour and mix until no dry flour is present. (No NY is used)
After 20 mins I add salt wetting the salt with water (I’ve measured and usually add about 4-6 g of water at this point, I should probably add that to the table above as the bassinage) and ensure that it is fully dissolve and mixed first with dimpling it and then pinching it in. The Rubaud kneading used for 3-4 minutes.
After 50 mins of rest at 82ºF coil folds are done with another set 50 mins later. Watching the aliquot jar bulk fermentation ended when 30% rise achieved. The dough is placed into a 2ºC fridge. The next day 18 hours later the dough is taken out of the fridge and divided and pre-shaped. I watched Abel’s video and tried his pre-shape and shaping technique and really liked it. Once the pre-shape was done the oven was pre-heated set at 500ºF. After 20 mins the dough was shaped and placed onto the couche and left at very warm room temperature for 20 mins. The shaped dough was then placed in the fridge to firm up prior to scoring. The Silvia towel was then loaded into the oven filled with boiled water. After 20 minutes of chilling the shaped baguettes were transferred to the peel and then scored. This time the lame was about 45* angle to the dough surface, attempting to use quick cuts and maybe about 0.5 cm deep, however, I never quite get the score I want with one go so recut a bit to get the 0.5 cm depth. Flour is brushed off and then water is heavily brushed on.
The baguettes are then loaded into the oven and 250 mL of boiled water is poured in the cast iron skillet. The baguettes are baked with steam for 13 minutes. The steaming equipment is removed and the oven temperature is dropped to 480ºF convection on. After 5 mins they are rotated, after a further 5 mins they are rotated again and the oven temperature dropped to 375ºF. 3 minutes later they are done.
I have some flattish ends again, these are the baguettes with which I struggled a bit getting the length and applied too much downward rather than outward pressure. I still need more practice stretching and rolling. I have to concentrate on stretching outwards and not pressing downwards. The otherwise got a better lift so cutting the bulk was a positive and it helped with ears and grigne.
We shall see at dinner time if the crumb suffers from the reduction in bulk rise from 35-40 to 30%.
I’m pretty happy with the crumb, it isn’t too different from the crumbs with the 35-40% rise. I think the benefits outweighs the negatives with reducing the rise back to 30% in bulk.
Assez dit...
Merci beaucoup Monsieur Will.
I noticed that the Louis Lamour baguettes are rising during BF in the fridge. I have some BF now and may pull the at 20% anticipating more cold rise.
This is my second or third time using the aliquot dough as pate ferment for the next dough. It is working out nicely and mixes well with the new dough. I plan to start using 100g dough in the aliquot.
Idea - since most of us don’t slice warm breads, I have started the practice of mixing an extra 100-150g dough. That way the extra dough can be shaped and baked, then sliced and eaten warm. No guilt for slicing hot bread. It’s a special treat...
Very interesting and provocative idea of using the aliquot jar dough as a pate fermenté. I only bake baguettes at most once per week, I wonder if the pate fermenté would last that long in the fridge.
I have to admit that I have eaten one of my baguettes warm, once or twice....
They look great from all angles inside and out. Beautiful crumb as usual. The shorter bulk was the ticket to grigne and ears. I am surprised that they didn't want to roll out more. That tells me that you could even go shorter time in bulk and gain more extensibility. If memory serves me, Abel's recipe has an 8 hour bulk. I calculate the hydration at 69% with the water from the levin and saline solution. Not counting the brushed on water. I was wondering about the heavily brushed on water after scoring. What is the reason for it? When I tried it on other loaves, not baguettes, I got uneven browning and a harder crust.
Nice to see your analytics paying off. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Don. As you’ve always said higher hydration, I am slowly inching hydration up, about 5 mL this time over last. The shorter bulk time does seem to have helped with the grigne and ears, at least seems to be the case. Then of course, I changed more than one variable which makes it harder to discern cause and effect. I increased the hydration a bit, shorten bulk and used a different pre-shape and shaping technique. But it would be more logical that the shorter bulk did the trick.
In terms of extensibility, it may just be my shaping isn’t quite good enough yet, I feel that I was pressing down too much on the two that got squashed ends a bit too much instead of pushing outwards. I think I have enough of the same flour to bake another set with it again. I now have a good idea of its extensibility I don’t have to be too worried about it getting too long so the pre-shape can be rolled out a bit longer to start me along the way to the final length.
In terms of the water, I’ve been in the habit of brushing on water pretty generously right before my doughs go into the oven as a last step for some time now. I like the sheen it gives the crust and it seems to enhance the blisters. I haven’t seen uneven browning as an effect, I went back through my photos of my baguettes and I can see the same browning pattern in the ones I didn’t brush water onto as the ones I did. I’ll have to keep an eye on that.
Edited to add: Sorry I didn’t answer your question about bulk time. The bulk takes about 3.5-4 hours I think. I don’t watch the clock after the second coil folds, I just keep an eye on the aliquot jar. I bulk at a warm 82ºF.
Benny, because we are mercilessly going to run you though the paces and have you walk us through either: how you get that open crumb, or where you buy those baggies from. And your scoring and shaping are in continuous improvement mode! Study up!
As I keep telling you folks, I don’t know why I’m getting the crumb that I do. I just keep applying the lessons learned from each bake and all the information that everyone has contributed to this CB. I have no secret sauce that I know of. Well, maybe just he miso I am making but that isn’t ready yet.
I should have been specific. I was referring to the retard time of Abel's recipe. I don't think the retard is a period of suspended animation. Flavor is developed then and in my fridge the dough slowly continues to ferment for awhile before the chill sets in.
Ah I believe the original formula had a 12-15 hour cold retard. I don’t think I have done that short of a cold retard, but I’ve now made this so many times I can’t keep track. I think I’ve done between 18 to 24 hours of cold retard.
I’m sure since I retard en bulk that the dough does continue to ferment for sometime. Now I wonder if I should cut bulk earlier at 25% since it is fermenting further in the fridge and since I do allow further development on the bench during pre-shaping and shaping I might still get more oven spring. I’m not sure what effect that would have on the crumb but the only way to find out is to test it.
and it probably depends on a few variables, as in all things bread baking. But there is a point where a cold retard can only go so far before the gluten structure starts to break down. I'll guess that 18-24 hours is likely still fine for this formula.
Just made a discovery that the temperature of your dough going into retard makes a considerable difference in the rise/no rise during retardation. Prior to this finding my main focus was on the actual temp of the fridge. 39F and below - no rise. Higher temps - rise relative to the temp over 40F.
BUT, the actual dough temp should be factored in. Last bake the dough went into the fridge at ~30% increase and it doubled during retardation. IMO, the dough over proofed because of that. This present bake went into the same fridge at the same temp and exhibited no growth what so ever. Same formula. The difference was, the first dough mentioned was fermented at ~78F. I estimate the actual dough temp @ 80-81F. The present dough was fermented at ~73. Estimated dough temp of 75F.
I believe that the final temperature of the BF dough should be taken into consideration. If warm fermenting - terminate the dough earlier or put dough in freezer for a quick cool down. First option seems better.
We all agree that baguettes are a unique bread that requires special considerations. Using CY (alone or as a kicker) probably exacerbates the issue.
I am interested in the thoughts of others concerning this.
Danny
What you’re saying is totally logical, a dough that starts out at a higher temperature will definitely take longer to reach fridge temperatures than a dough that starts out at a lower temperature. I’ve never measured the dough temperature at the end of bulk, but since I use my proofer and it is usually set to 82ºF I assume the dough temperature is pretty close to that. Because I bulk and proof the dough in a square Pyrex dish I cannot accurately measure rise in the dough that might occur in the fridge, I use the aliquot jar for that during bulk. But since the mass of dough would take far longer to reach fridge temperature than the aliquot jar I do not continue to monitor aliquot jar rise once cold retard starts.
It is quite possible that I’m still overproofing my dough then based on what you are saying. More convincing evidence as to why I’m not getting the ears and grigne until my last bake where I pared back on bulk rise......
Benny, I hope we are starting to break the “crumb code”. It is possible that I have fallen prey to old ways. Nearly a year ago THIS ARTICLE was published. Prior to that discovery, I was over fermenting my dough in an attempt to develop gas in an effort tp produce open crumb and large oven spring. Little did I know that I was headed in the wrong direction.
It is possible that I “feel off the wagon” and lost faith in the oven spring concept when it came to this quest for exceptional baguettes. I hope this hits the nail on the head. We need to run this by Don and Doc also. They are closely bringing up the rear...
Yes I remember your post well Dan. But I have fallen prey to so many bakers who say push the bulk, so I’ve even had some overproofed batards of late. Thinking about how long it takes dough to chill down to a low enough temperature that yeast activity ceases, I recall earlier in this thread that Doc posted a graph and it was quite a few hours of ongoing fermentation. It is likely that I am overproofing my dough for these baguettes when you also consider the bench time in a hot room with the oven heating while pre-shaping and shaping.
So I guess with my next bake I have to test this out and end bulk earlier, say 25% and see if I can get better oven spring, ears and grigne while still getting the crumb that everyone seems to like.
So is the secret to my open crumb that I have been relatively overproofing my dough at the expense of oven spring, ears and grigne? That is what this current conversation is leading me to think....
Next week, assuming we finish off the supply of baguettes currently in the freezer, I will have to reduce bulk rise to 25% to test this out.
“So is the secret to my open crumb that I have been relatively overproofing my dough at the expense of oven spring, ears and grigne?”
No, I don’t see it that way at all.
Ears and Gringe
It is my opinion that without large oven spring that both ears and open crumb s not going to happen.
The lack of ears, assuming great oven spring, is probably due to the physical characteristics of the skin and/or the heating of the crust during the first few minutes of the bake. Many of us are headed towards weaker flours that produce thinner crusted baguettes. It seems that thicker crust (very much like Hamelman’s Pain au Levain) produces the most dramatic ears.
I am of the opinion that weak flours make the best traditional type baguettes with outstanding taste. BUT, ears are not as easily produced.
So I improved my grigne and ears by reducing the bulk rise by 5% and kept open crumb mostly. I think that to me confirms a bit that I have been pushing bulk a bit too far. I plan to stop bulk next time at 25% and see what that does. If the ears and grigne improve but the crumb deteriorates then at least in part, my open crumb may have been somewhat related to pushing fermentation. If by stopping at 25% rise the open crumb persists then I would agree with you that my pushing bulk isn’t part of what was giving me open crumb.
I think Don ends bulk fermentation around 25% if I recall correctly.
It is still so hard for me to wrap my head around 25% bulk ferment. However, The results can not be disputed. So... Side note, could it be the weak gluten of durum wheat, that helped be unknowingly get such nice crumb, from my semola bakes? I will retire to my lodge, and think on this some more.
Benny, it seems that some of what applies to other breads does work the same with baguettes.
Oh yes of course, I agree. Overproofing batards also cause loss of oven spring and loss of ears. Everything is relative of course, if you're a bit overproofed you can still have great crumb.
And of course more water. Baguettes and Ciabatta are basically the same dough with the latter having more water and a longer proof. Ciabatta is not scored because it would not help and the cuts would probably seal back up even if you could get the blade into them. I think the lack of ears comes partly from fermenting to the limits and of course water. The reason most pros shoot for a less full bulk fermentation is to shape a more relaxed and less elastic dough. I am speaking about yeasted versions because it is quite another matter with SD. A hybrid like Abel's recipe will behave more like a CY than an SD only. SD is more of a flavor component than a fermentation engine in the hybrid version.
I have done the Bouabsa recipe as a hybrid and kept to the same timeframe as the IDY only. Yes I would guess 25% or less is what I look for. Just a sign that the yeast is active and the dough is starting to move.
The dough doctor advocates cross stacking the dough ball trays in pizzeria walk in coolers, to assist it dropping the temperature of the dough balls rapidly. Then after a couple of hours They are close stacked.
Lets just say I have watched a lot of Youtube baguette videos and many of the pros are quite specific about the DT for baguettes and the magic number for many of them is 74 or 73 F. The French dudes say 24. Abel says in his recipe 73 is best because it helps with extensibility. I saw that Doc called him out on the science behind that but I have found it to be helpful and that has been my target DT and it seems to work well for me. I will use warmer or colder during the bassinage to make adjustments if I miss the mark.
I was incorrect in the time he recommends for BR it was 12 to 18 hours and not 8 as previously stated.
Interesting, I’ve always liked a warm BF, not really sure why but I believe somewhere along the way I’ve read that 80-82ºF is pretty optimal for yeast.
Benny, it would be interesting to see the crumb of a bake other than Able’s formula. It may rule out whether it is the formula or the technique. What about Bouabsa? It is Don’s favorite, I think.
Hey Dan, I blogged my bake of the Bouabsa baguettes, but that was before this CB started. My second set of baguettes - Bouasba The crumb was surprisingly good for my second go at baguettes given how bad my first set were.
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Benny, formula doesn’t seem to matter for the crumb. But did the Bouabsa BF to 30% or what?
What did the Bouabsa have in common with your present bakes that are producing the great crumb?
The best baguette crumbs have had the tiny amount of IDY in common. When I made the sourdough baguette formula outlined in the CB I didn’t get an open a crumb. All my other baguettes which had good crumb had a tiny % of IDY in them, either alone in the Bouabsa or with levain in Abel’s formula. I’ve used so many different flours with differing protein levels I cannot even remember now.
Edited to add: In regards to the bulk rise, I made a note that it didn’t rise very much at all. I’d say it was around 25% or even less but not 30% or more. At that time I wasn’t using the aliquot jar so wasn’t as precise with the % rise. I also noted that I used 50% bread flour and 50% AP which at that time was 13.3% protein. I also used 150 FF. All of that to say it was very different from how I am making my baguettes now with low protein with less gluten building.
I take back what I said about you improving all along. You've only gone sideways and have been handicapping yourself with sourdough ;-)
Is rooted in changing as part of any sequential test only variables that are known to be independent. And the closer you get to optimality the more experiments yield worse results (because from the top of the hill, every direction is down).
One of the really great thing about this community bake is the richness of the well controlled and well documented experiments. The outstanding question is which variables really affect the outcome, and there is probably enough data to sort it out, or at least to structure a new series of experiments to close on that answer.
Hello, friends.
The good Doctor, is correct. This community bake is leaving behind a wealth of very valuable information, not only for the participants, but for all "John Q. boulangère!" To my point, I think it would be great if some of our best analytical minds, went over all the data and developed an open source, exclusive Fresh loaf baguette formula. It would be a shame not to document all this data, before we move on to a raisin muffin, or better yet Kaiser roll community bake, and this endeavor is pushed to the wayside. Some important points that should be included in our master formula are as follows.
1. Flour protein content/country of origin
2. Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis/Candida milleri?
3. Bulk fermentation % and gluten development
4. Time and temperature
5, Best practices for shaping and slashing.
To name just a few.
Anyone interested in heading up or joining the exploratory committee, can sign in below.
Project "B" crispy exploratory committee sign up sheet. (Top secret)
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To get a condensed version or a summary of best practices. A cliff notes version of cherry picked highpoints without the the Tourettes inducing page loading is good idea. The first line would be practice, practice, practice because there is no substitute.
By the way I loved the line about a Roman among the Greeks. Like you, I am more of a fly by the seat of my pants kind of guy when it comes to baking. It's not that I don't appreciate the science but I rely on repetition and intuition. I pay attention when the professional speak and I wish more of them were involved here but I understand why they would not want to watch us bandy about something they do all day for a living.
consistently been "the first 10,000 are the hardest, after that it gets easy".
I'm with you that repetition and intuition, paying attention to details, both our own as well as others has been the ticket to my own success.. Trying to figure out the what went wrong and what went right. And why. Continuous process improvement, "copy exact", don't change multiple variables at any one time when trying to correct or figure out (although I'm occasionally guilty of that), don't let frustration get the better of us, there's always another mix tomorrow.
What a lot of it, probably almost all of it, really boils down to is that experience is the best teacher and that there's little substitute for time in the field. There's a reason that Abel and other professional baguetteers can roll them out perfectly in their sleep. No need to look any further than this CB to see that in real-time.
I've mentioned this before in terms of my own IT career, and of course now with baking - those who "never make a mistake" will never fully understand why what they do works. Mistakes, and then understanding/correcting them, were an essential part of my work-life success.
Maybe this should be the preface to any manual that Will has so graciously agreed to take on for us ;-) .
**Cliff Notes and reusing the same gussied up book reports from year-to-year kept my early education from being on life-support. It wasn't just my charm!
My forte, is to light the fuse, plant the seed, as it were. Then I sit back and watch my idea take shape! Very satisfying indeed!
I am glad, MT, that you enjoyed my analogy of a Roman among Greeks! Smile, sometimes my wit, hits with impeccable timing!
Yes I know, I had some very early success with the Bouasba and then introduced sourdough levain which introduced a variable which made the baguettes more difficult in a few ways. However, I did stick with a formula that I felt tastes really good which is why I stuck with the hybrid. I should give the Bouasba a go again sometime.
Same formulation as yesterday but because I had a mid-day meeting I had to retard for 4hrs after BF and before divide/shape. And it over-fermented as well so it was a little hard to shape, plus I did not chill before baking so slashing was again sticky though it came out OK. This is 100% levain with no commercial yeast but based on Bennie's results I will probably give it a try as the only change. The first shot is my regular 3 whole +1 cut, the second shot is one a neighbor sent of the one she received which might actually be a better looking crumb. Shaping seemed to fix the problem of yesterday but still not as open as Bennie's.
Over proofed or not, your shaping is super consistent Doc. You’re right the crumb in the bottom photos is excellent.
I took a random baguette out of the freezer, for sausage and pepper hero's tonight. The photo compares my mediocre baguette, to the offering from a mediocre Italian restaurant. (John's of 12th street) For my money, the flavorless soft crusted mass produced bread can not even be a blister on the seam side, of my home baked number!
Smile...
It would be really hard to eat most mass produced bread now that I've been baking my own for so long, I can imagine how flavourless that bread must have been compared to your home baked bread.
I would guess you are nearing the limits of incremental improvements with SD. That's as close to fabled lacy honeycomb that I have seen. I would agree as you stated to try the CY addition to achieve the crumb Benny is getting and you may like the effect on the crust as well. It may feel like starting over but it is the just next planet in the system.
Doc you are running up on perfection at warp speed. “Beam me up Scottie”. Each of your latest bakes are progressively approaching the ultimate in all respects. Stellar improvement...
The time has come to lock down the formula, and procedure. Because, from the lofty preach on which you sit, there is no where left to go but down! Boy, I am something of a wordsmith, for a barley passed, pot head H.S. Graduate! (There it is again...Boisterous Roman!) Smile...
Something a little different for a change...
Posted as a blog at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65401/hamelman-sd-seed-bread-baguettes-course
Not only are your baguettes quite fetching, you are an accomplished photographer to boot!
I'm a point and shoot type of photographer, more a picture taker than photographer. But with these baes I get plenty of practice.
thanks, alan
This batch went back to the 10.7% protein that comes from mixing up the levain with a 13% bread flour and making up the dough with 10.5% AP (12% PFF). 69% hydration, cold autolyse with AP flour and water only. 1.5% salt (which is a little low, even when there is salt sprinkled on the crust). Put levain in mixer, added IDY and autolysed 60% hydration dough, mix on speed 1 adding 43g of water and 15g salt over 8 min. After 10 min at speed 1; double spindle speed to 200/min for one additional minute. 3:00 BF from a starting DT = 67°F and finishing at 76°F (82°F kitchen) with two folds when it came off the mixer then one more at 20 min to see how it was doing. Aliquot jar showed 28% volume increase at 3:00 after start of mix. Divide, 30 min rest, shape, counter proof for 90 min and chill in 38°F retarder for 3 hr for timing. Standard oven cycle (preheat to 525F, bake 8 min @ 500°F 100% humidity, then 9 min @ 430°F 20% humidity.
Pre-bake chill made slashing easy, and I tried to use the full 1/3 of the circumference as boundaries for slash lines. This increases the spacing between adjacent slashes which helps to keep the belts from breaking and seems to make for better ears. There is clearly some adjustment to be made in terms of slash placement to minimize the tendency of the loaf to twist counter to the direction of the slashes. I need to do some measurements to calculate how to set up the boundaries for the slash offsets as they progress down the barrel.
The result shows that it is not just the inclusion of a small amount of IDY that yields Benny's crumb.
I have included the photo of yesterday's batch below for comparison. Not much difference that I can see, so the impact of the addition of .07% IDY is not a significant change.
OK so it isn’t just the IDY alone....
Now you bring up the scoring, that was another variable in yesterday’s bake. I also scored more across the width of the baguette than I have in the past and tried to leave more dough between the scores just as you have been doing Doc. Interesting that you mention that this seems to make better ears, that might be what also helped with the ears too. I had noticed in your baguettes that you leave a good amount of spaced between the scores so I made an effort to do the same, but not nearly as well as you have done. I think that is a good point and something that I will strive to do more so next time.
Your shaping is so consistent now, really impressive.
Doc, your baguettes are so consistent. It is difficult to tell one batch from another. The mark of an expert!
When I started this challenge I had no idea what would come out of the oven. It was very much like tossing stones in a pond and watching what happened. Eventually I got to a place where I was consistently making ugly "baguettes". But once they were consistent I could see the impact of making single parameter adjustments. So many parameters and so many relationships between them: time, temperature of each step and ingredient, type of flour, protein level, ash content, bleached/unbleached, %salt, aliquot jar, poke test, window pane, P/L values, oven cycle, shaping, slashing, browning, ascorbic acid, L-cysteine/nutritional yeast, diastatic malt, hydration, autolyse, bassinage, retard time/temperature, steaming, mixer type and capabilities, ... crust thickness, crumb color and tenderness, ... and of course taste.
I am now (after almost 5 months) at a place where I am happy to give the test baguettes to the neighbors, and they seem happy to get them. And every batch has a single change or if an improvement was observed becomes a repeat with no change to verify consistency and define a new baseline. There is a constant quest to understand what makes a difference (and how much of a difference) and how to simplify to get rid of non-value added steps (like discovering that a long period of refrigeration at low temperatures is useful to stop the process when you have to interrupt it, but what happens during the cooldown time it takes to reach the low stable temperature is very important and has to be understood and planned carefully). Details count, mostly, but some things actually don't seem to make any difference (within certain bounds). And you need to know what is important and what is not. And baguettes are quite unforgiving of process errors. So it has been great fun, with more foreseeable fun as things continue to improve (slowly).
Hey all. Just wanted to post my baguette bake today...first post on here since 2013! Yikes.
It was my 2nd try at baguettes. My first was back in 2010 I believe...with lack lustre results. I am happy with how these turned out considering! This bake produced 3 baguettes. It took the first two to get the hang of shaping...so the largest 3rd one came out the best. All three have good flavour, crumb structure and crust. The 3rd one just looks the best. But probably should have kept it at 3 slashes instead of trying to fit in 4 on shorter baguettes as this. I took the formula from breadcetera which I believe was inspired by Boubasa's Baguettes formula. I used a mixer, in lieu of slap and folds, followed by 3 stretch and folds in the bowl during the bulk ferment. Also, I used a 13% bread flour. I hear that AP is best for baguettes, so maybe next time, I will mix 50/50 bread and AP flour.
Glad to be back at baking!
John
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Welcome to the Baguette CB, glad you came over to join in the festivities. I’ll say it again that your baguettes are quite amazing for your second go in 10 years.
Thanks! Glad to be on board. Looks like many inspiring posts to look forward to!
John
They look great for early attempts. Every one of the active participants of this CB have come to respect the difficulty of baking such a simple bread.
Danny
Thanks Dan!
Do you have any advice on the following?: Instant yeast vs sourdough starter...in baguettes, do you find much of a difference in the overall flavour or texture? I know the answer for sourdough loaves and rye breads, etc. Just wondering if there is really a need to use a starter in lieu of commercial yeast, to achieve the best results. I am under the impression that most artisan bakers in France use instant yeast for baguettes and yield some of the worlds best....am I wrong?
John
John, there seems to be 2 distinct camps on the CB. Maybe 3... Some prefer SD, others a hybrid of SD & CY, and those that use CY only.
The consensus is that SD produces a thicker crust and chewier crumb and CY produces a thinner crust with a softer chew. Of course, CY doesn’t have any of the sour notes like SD. Myself and MTLoaf use CY. Most others on the CB use SD (with or without a CY kicker).
The thread has grown to enormous proportions. It contains a number of findings. There aren’t many regular participants, but they are very committed to excellence.
Let us know if you want to try CY only, SD, or a combo of both. We can suggest formulas.
I think I will try another few goes at a 100% CY formula, then take you up on that offer and ask you guys for a good CY/SD formula.
John
I am in the IDY camp for making batons. White flour and yeast for me with an occasional dollop of SD for a change. SteveB was an early influencer from my lurking days when he used to post here on TFL. The constant ringing in my ears makes it hard for me to hear the song of the baker from a cooling loaf. Nice work on the baggies. Judging by whats has transpired here I should warn you that they are addictive and can lead to OCD
I remember you actually from back in the day. Great to be back.
I have ringing in my ears as well...too many years of having my guitar blasted to eleven on stage...I can fortunately still hear the baguette singing though!
Wonder where all the oldies are...PiPs, Dabrownman, Golgi70, Wingnut, isand66, Jantecook, etc. Been too long!
John