Community Bake - Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain

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DanAyo on 27 Jan 2019 at 11:53

This Community Bake will feature Jeffry Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain. The formula and instructions are taken from his very popular book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes". Many bakers consider this bread a favorite of theirs and I am in that group. The portion of whole grain along with the seeds makes this bread stand out among the best. The book can be Seen HERE.

For those not familiar with our Community Bakes see THIS LINK. The idea of a Community Bake is for those interested in baking and learning to bake with us and post the results. This way we can all learn together. This is not a bread baking competition, everyone wins!

I chose to post the bake today in order to give everyone time to gather the ingredients since there are 4 grains and/or seed add ins. It is not necessary to go out of your way to get the specified seeds or grains. I substitute all of the time and the bread is always great. Hopefully the bake will get into full swing by next weekend, but feel free to start right away.

I've included an additional image of the spreadsheet for those that want to bake a smaller batch. The formula is for 1000 grams, but you could easily divide each ingredient by 2 in order to make a 500 gram loaf.

Here are the instructions from Hamelman's book. If you don't already own the book, I suggest you give it some consideration.

Five-Grain Levain
by Jeffrey Hamelman
Resource --- Bread: A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes    Pages 182 - 183

1.    Liquid Levain   --- Make the final build 12 to 16 hours before the final mix and let stand in a covered container at about 70°F. Mix Levain and Soaker at the same time.

2.    Soaker   --- Pour the boiling water over the grain blend and salt, mix thoroughly, and cover with plastic to prevent evaporation. Make the soaker at the same time as the final build of the levain and let stand at room temperature. If grains that don't require a hot soaker are used (such as rye chops in lieu of the cracked rye listed here), a cold soaker will absorb less water, and therefore it's likely that slightly less water will be needed in the final dough.

3.    Mixing   --- Add all ingredients to the mixing bowl. In a spiral mixer, mix on first speed for 3 minutes, adjusting the hydration as necessary. Mix on second speed for 3 to 3 1/2 minutes. The dough should have a moderate gluten development. Desire dough temperature 76°F.

4.    Bulk Fermentation   --- 1 to 1 1/2 hours (if yeast (.008%) is used). Otherwise see Step 7 for clarification.

5.    Folding   --- the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold

6.    Dividing and Shaping   --- Divide the dough into 1.5 pound pieces; shape round or oblong. Large loaves of several pounds are also a beautiful sight. And good rolls can be made from this dough. NOTE – I like to make 3 pound boules and place them into the Dutch Ovens and then refrigerate. After they are shaped I place the ball upside down on a water soaked towel and then put the wet side on a towel that is floured and filled with pumpkin seeds. This gives the bread an excellent flavor and also makes it more attractive.

7.    Final Fermentation   --- The dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold and the yeast should be left out of the mix.

 

8.    Baking   --- With normal steam, 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes. There is a great deal of water retention in this bread, so be sure to bake it thoroughly.

Danny

 

I just came looking for this. And thank you for the original instructions. It seems everyone has their own spin on those instructions. 

Question though: Are we expected to follow the instructions or can we use our own method?

Bake as you please. I'm sure we can all benefit from helpful variations. I bake this bread all of the time. At times I've gotten somewhat sacrilegious. I often don't take time to toast the seeds and have omitted the soaker entirely with good results. For my initial bake, I plan to follow the method precisely. I've veered off through the years and want to go back to the basics.

I'm really looking forward to what you come up with Danni...

Danny, the other one :-)

One thing for sure is that I need to scale it up to 1100 g of flour so I get 3 loaves out of it. I will probably add some yogurt and I am thinking maybe some chia or black sesame seeds as well. 

the second time I made this I let the flours and the levain have their own party  for several hours before I introduced the soaker. It was much better than the first time. and of course I am going to make it again.

Toast

hreik on 27 Jan 2019 at 12:42

Without the yeast tho.  i did an iteration of this 3 years ago. Only it lacked the oats, which I am anxious to try using in bread.  That recipe was based on a very similar Hamelman recipe on pages 186-7 called "Sourdough seed bread".  That one has sesame seeds and rye flour but no whole wheat or cracked rye... which I added anyhow b/c I love it (cracked rye)..  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49481/four-grain-three-flour-bread

I'll just make this one w/o yeast.... an option he gives.  Thanks

hester

Yea, Hester. I left the small amount of yeast out. The formula is more intricate than most and I wanted to try to simplify. If you want to use yeast that is fine. No rules here ;-)

Oh! I find the bread taste better without the yeast, but that is a personal preference. 

Look forward to seeing your bake...

Danny

Danny, On page 184 Hamelman says: FINAL FERMENTATION: "the dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold and the yeast should be left out of the mix".

Hester

procedure for bulk and proofing. 2 hours is way too short in my 70-73F kitchen. 

Another question: What is everybody using for oats? Oat Groats? Steel cut oats? Old fashioned oats? What? 

my kitchen is 66-68 F so mine will be much longer, depending on what I calculate the levain %is is... haven't done that yet.

I will use rolled and also b/c like Abe, that's what i've got around.  lol

hester

When I made this the last time with Bulgur, I added almost 100 g more water to the total dough. Is there that much of a difference between the water absorption of cracked rye and Bulgur? Or do most of you find that Hamelman is very conservative in his hydration? 

where I was happily hermitting away for a few months, mostly minding my own biznez.

Baked Jan. 11 for a weekend trip as gifts for two sets of friends.

Yeah, I know I'm cheating as I already baked this one, albeit recently, but it is fairly new to my repertoire, merely the third bake for me of this tasty bread.  Call me a cheater if you wish.  I'll shed a tear or two and then probably get over it!

The grains were cracked bulgur, steel-cut oats, flaxseeds and sunflower seeds.

750x2.  The denseness of this bread works against baguette style scoring. 

Now what kind of a drip would I be to give breads away to others with them already sliced open?  While it isn't exactly like I drive by their homes tossing the bread on their doorstep alla the paper boy, I also don't sit on my expectant hands waiting for them to unsheathe the beasts from their plain brown wrappers and then skin them in front of me either!

We met both sets of friends at restaurants, and so there was the ol' surreptitious handoff on the way out.

I really like to inspect the crumb for the breads I bake, even those that are given away. This is what I do and the neighbors tell me they really like it this way. I slice half the loaf and then bag it together with the remaining intact loaf. I am fortunate to own a meat slicer, but I have also carefully sliced it by hand. It makes a nice presentation and the neighbors can reach in and grab a slice.

Dan

if they remember, to take a crumb shot. Most people are tickled pink to do so, while they think I've gone over the deep end ?

Gorgeous loaves, as ever.

Carole 

I have baked this bread many times but not for quite a while. You may have stimulated me to revisit it. I count myself as one of its fans.

The very first time I made it, I used instant yeast and did not cold retard the loaves. The bread was good but not anything extraordinary. The next time, I left out the yeast and retarded it overnight. It was amazing! Hardly the same bread. 

Do not neglect to leave out the yeast and do cold retard the loaves. 

David

Immediately after saving the above message, I went to my pantry and found I had all the necessary ingredients for this bread. Well, most were actually in the freezer. For previous bakes, I have always subbed bulgur for the cracked rye with good results. This time, I am actually going to use cracked rye.

I'm tickled that Jeffrey Hamelman stopped by (See below.) I hope he checks back as this "community bake" starts showing results.

David

Hi Fellow Bakers and Bakerinas,

What fun to read all the comments on this thread. I confess I've not visited the FL site in some years, but I think that may now change. Some thoughts: of course yeast is optional here, as it is with many/most breads. I always start with the premise of evaluating what is coming out of the oven. This might seem odd--starting at the end of the process--but it's not. I eat the bread and ask myself "Is this bread just what I would like it to be?" If yes, great, onward. If not, then I ask myself how I might change the process to get it the way I want it--no yeast, different grains, different shapes for the loaves (what a difference between round and oval, right?), overnight retarding or not, different flour blends--you get the picture. Reading the comments, it's so cool to see bakers talking about yogurt, bulgur, oat groats or steel cut oats (better a hot soaker with those), chia seeds, black sesame seeds. One reason North America excels in bread baking is because our lack of a long cultural bread history frees us up to experiment in so many directions, a luxury most European countries don't share. Please remember this--anything I've written about bread is malleable. You may choose to try it the way I've written it (or not). But one of the greatest joys of baking is personalizing how we do things. Sometimes my efforts don't work out, but I do not label them as failures. After all, falling belongs to the bravery of running.

Yours in good bread,

Jeffrey

How nice to see you again on TFL! I do hope you follow your intention to visit often. 

Over the years, I have enjoyed this site the most when we have had a mix of new bakers, serious home bakers, small production and large production professional bakers. We have consistently maintained an international participation. This geographic and experiential diversity enriches this community greatly.

So, welcome back!

David

How exciting to have so many experienced bakers join the bake so early in the game. And on top of it all Jeffrey Hamelman joins in...

I sincerely hope that many new bakers and novices participate also. This is a learning project for all. I encourage everyone to document their bakes and include images when possible. Post your good, bad, and ugly loaves. I know that I will. I have learned more from my failures than my successes.

Danny

Hey Jeffrey, it would be a gigantic treat to have you bake a loaf and document your process for the gang. For me, it would be better than the Super Bowl. Keep in mind though, I am from New Orleans :-(

I doubt you remember me considering how many students have the privilege of learning from you but I had a week of classes with you at The French Pastry School back in 2012!  Since you popped on here I thought it was worth noting how much of a pleasure it was to have the chance to learn from you.  I also had the chance to catch up with Didier Rosada a few months ago so this is just a bonus to see you on here.  I already have some bread resting awaiting final shaping but I'll have to jump on the 5-grain as I haven't made it in some time. 

Hope all is well,

Lyndon

Jeffrey,

You are my main bread baking inspiration.  I recommend Bread several times a week to newbies on various forums.  I bake almost weekly and make your recipes most of the time, incorporating what I've learned here, other forums, and other books.  I have two all SD whole wheat Multigrain loaves retarding to bake off when I get home from work tonight.  The whole grains are comprised of home milled red and white wheat, emmer, kamut, spelt, and rye, which I sifted to uses the bran to make the levain (a trick learned here).  The soaker was 4 rolled grains, toasted sesame, ground brown flax, and my non-authentic home made red rye malt.  It's not uncommon for me to retard these loaves for about 30 hours.

I'd love to here what breads you are particularly interested in these days, and what new techniques you have incorporated since the publishing of Bread.

Phil

I’ll be shopping in the bulk aisle this week to prepare. 

Very exciting (and a bit intimidating) to have Mr. Hamelman watching!

 

Tom

But this can’t be worse than when I invited a Chef to Xmas dinner (he was married to a friend of the family)! One that knew his stuff! I didn’t sleep a wink the night prior. I must not have done a bad job of the 8 course French meal because he seriously offered me a job after dessert! I was flabbergasted and flattered, but I told him I think I better stick to teaching! 

That being said, my jaw did hit the floor when I was reading my email and realized who was posting!

Welcome back, Jeffrey! It is lovely to have you here checking out what a bunch of us are doing to your recipes! ?

Love this bread and never use yeast in it.  

Absolutely awesome to see you post Jeffrey, glad you are joining us for this.  I am in New Zealand so my flours are different from the US ones but this formula still works a treat.  Usually use the original grain mix as well.  

As you said Danny - we are on a roll and Alfanso has already go a head start lol....

Happy community bake everyone

Leslie

Thanks, Dan, for organizing what sounds like another great community bake.

Would it be cheating if I used a multi-grain flake mix instead of rolled oats?

I know I can do the math myself,, but since you offer to post a working spreadsheet, may I ask you for a link to it, please? The full recipe is too much and a half recipe too small :-P

How's the renovation going?

All the best,

Carole

It'll only be sort of cheating: I buy a toastrd multi-grain mix, of course the prime ingredient is oats... 

Looking forward to this, trying to figure out when  ☺

Carole 

Hi Carole, substitutions are fine. I do it all the time. 

Check out the initial post on this topic for the link to download the spreadsheet and accompanying files. Be sure you read the file, "0000_Dough_Calculator_Initial_Instructions.txt" in order to get started. Don't let the number of files intimidate you. I included the original template and supporting files in case you or anyone else would like to use it for other breads. Give me a shout if you need help with it.

Renovations are going well, but it will be months before completion.

Take Care...

Danny 

I soaked the soaker and fed the liquid levain last night. The only deviation from the recipe was that the "active levain" I used had been previously fed with a mix of 70% AP, 20% WW and 10% whole rye flour at 100% hydration.

This morning, I mixed the final dough in a Bosch Universal Plus mixer - 3 minutes on first speed and 8 minutes on second speed. The whole wheat flour I used (freshly milled Sirvinta) is exceptionally thirsty, so I increased the water by about 10g. I bulk fermented at 80ºF in a Brød & Taylor proofing box for 3 hours with folds at 50 and 100 minutes.

As usual, I used the "Metric" column of Hamelman's formula with quantities divided by 10. This makes over 5 lbs of dough. I divided it into 3 pieces of equal weight, pre-shaped by letter folds and rested the dough seam-side up, covered, for 10-15 minutes. Then I shaped one boule and two bâtards and placed them seam-side up in floured, linen-lined brotformen. Those went into plastic bakery bags, clipped shut and rested at room temperature for an hour. Then, they were placed in a 40ºF refrigerator to be baked tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are a few photos:

Loaves immediately after shaping

Boule, after 1 hour proofing at room temperature.

Bâtard, after 1 hour proofing at room temperature.

Looking forward to the bake (and cooling and tasting). I am eager to see if I can discern any difference using rye chops rather than bulgur in the soaker.

David

A 'now' kid! Dough looks great, will watch this space! 

I love seeing the process.  Interesting approach with the quantity.

This recipe is also in Jeffrey Hamelmans book : bread on pg 182 >

Is it my boyish good looks, or are they attracted to something else? I wonder...

My first bake is in. This bread has never once failed to taste outstanding. And I know I’ve baked over a 100 loaves. My struggle has been to produce a more open (not giant holes) crumb. My dough always turns out sticky and somewhat wet with little gluten development. I hope to learn to improve this during the Community Bake.

I used oats, flaxseeds, sunflower seeds, and poppy seeds for this one. The hydration was unchanged.

Dan

It is ironic that you ask about those 3 ingredients. I used a mortle & pestle to breakdown all 3 of those items. It is my understanding tha flaxseeds should be crushed for digestion. I also chose to crush the sunflower and oats, thinking that it might make for a stronger dough ( gluten network). Not sure if that worked or not.

I did toast them, but I’m not sure I can tell the difference between toasted and not.

Dan

and never made this bread but with the amazing and inspiring fellow bakers and bakerinas the best reason to try! 

These were baked on a stone. At 460ºF for 15 minutes with steam. Then at 440ºF convection bake for 25 minutes.

And here is a photo of the crumb. It's by far the nicest crumb I have ever gotten with this bread. I think it's due to the bit of extra water and a bit of extra gluten development.

David

I did grind the whole wheat flour. 

I'm a bit wary of grinding the flax seeds in my Mockmill. I'm afraid the oil would gum it up. I should check on this with the Mockmill gurus.

I did not toast the seeds this time. I have done so with other seeded breads with good results. I do always toast nuts.

David

I do have a whirly blade type coffee grinder. (I don't use it for coffee!) I I would have to grind this quantity of flax seeds in batches, I suppose.

Thanks for the suggestion.

David

I will mill wholewheat myself too, but the flax will be in my coffee grinder/spice mill.  Now I just have to hope my bake in the weekend works ok.

Thanks David

Leslie

PS _ wow, have just seen your crumb - totally awesome!  something to aim for.

I have struggled through the years to get a more open crumb. I am not baking bricks or gummy crumb, but I would like to lighten up the crumb a bite more. Any help or ideas appreciated.

How would you describe the gluten development after mixing? How would you describe the windowpane?

I am under the assumption that the gluten network is greatly reduced because of the high percentage of seeds. What are your thoughts.

Super nice bread...

Danny

Crumb structure reflects multiple variables. You are correct, of course, that having solids like coarse bran, rye chops, seeds and nuts, cuts gluten strands and works against an open crumb. But, besides that ...

Most folks will recommend increased hydration first of all when striving for an open crumb. All else being equal, that will help, but there are other variables just as important. Maybe more important. And missing the other factors, you can have a dense, gummy closed crumb even with very high hydration. And, if you do everything else "right," you can achieve a very open crumb at relatively low hydration. If interested, take a look at these baguettes made with a 65% hydration dough: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16573/curmudgeon-proth5-baguettes

Good gluten development is essential, but so is shaping. The amount of de-gassing you do during pre-shaping and shaping can make a big difference. You want to continue developing dough strength and form a tight gluten sheath for your loaves without deflating the dough. Optimal fermentation is necessary to generate the CO2 to inflate the gluten alveoli. Optimal proofing is important as well. So is how you bake your loaves. Everything matters!

So, gluten development: Hamelman prescribes "moderate" gluten development after mixing. My dough had a bit less than that. I could have gotten an early window pane, if I'd tried. In the past few years, I have become a "believer" in trusting time and folds to do most of the work in gluten development, rather than initial mixing. So, not having a whole lot of dough strength at the end of the mix, I did two stretch and folds, rather than the one that Hamelman prescribes.

I hope that helps some.

If you have an opportunity to take a class from some one like Jeffrey Hamelman (or at the San Francisco Baking Institute where I took a couple week-long workshops), you will learn more than you could imagine. The best learning is from direct observations of dough handling by a master baker. Next best is having a gifted teacher look over your shoulder and help you fine tune your skills. The third best is from "critical practice," but the process that Jeffrey describes in this topic of assessing your product and knowing exactly what you need to change to make it just the way it "should" be, does require in-depth knowledge of the roles of ingredients and procedures. You can get a lot of that from Jeffrey's book, from Michel Suas' "Advanced Bread and Pastry" and from a few other books written for wannabe professional bakers. But a class that includes both didactic and hands-on methods will accelerate the learning process amazingly.

Hope that is not TMI, but you did ask. ;-) 

Happy baking!

David

So well put, David. I’ve been wanting to get Advanced Bread and Pastry, but haven’t located a used copy yet. The pastry at his co-owned bakery B Patisserie is, I can’t believe I’m saying this, even better than Tartine’s. If you haven’t been, you must go. Tartine’s bread is still far superior, though. 

David, I just bought Saus’s book. I’ve seen it referenced many times before and your recommendation sealed the deal.

Please take a look at this short video showing the Five-Grain Levain being mixed. It may give you a clue or two. https://youtu.be/5QiKWG8DhsY

Btw - I welcome any and all valuable input from yourself and others. I consider myself a life time, devoted student.

Next time I mix this formula, I’ll try to get Patsy to photograph a windowpane of the dough. When I pull a windowpane, this dough it is fragile and tears easily, even after I have mixed the dough at length.

NOTE - This is the only formula that I continually struggle with in regards to gluten development and moderately open crumb. This is why I draw the conclusion that the add ins are my nemesis. I have tried using a pestle and motar to reduce the size of the add ins, supplemented a portion of the flour with KA high gluten (Sir Lancelot) flour, excessively machine kneaded, stretch and folds, low hydration (60%) Levain, etc.. The breads are not baking as bricks and neither is the crunb gummy. Your bake shows me that a more open crumb is achievable. I want to ride that train <LOL>

Dan

the seeds at the end? My plan is to up the hydration and just mix the flours and the Levain together for gluten development and then add the seeds etc at the end. Hope this works for the more open crumb. 

I have put the seeds in near the end of the mix, but I still didnkt achieve the open crumb. I also tried laminating the seeds towards the end, but if memory serves me well the seeds weren’t evenly dispersed.

Danni, can you relate to my issue? Is your experience similar to mine?

I love these Community Bakes. Seeing David’s crumb shows me that a more open texture is possible.

Thanks for the reply.

Danny

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55632/hamelman’s-5-grain-levain-sort-?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56789/5-grain-levain-bulgur

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57753/7-levain-bulgur-and-sunflower-seeds

They all have a pretty open crumb but note that I made these by hand and not with a mixer. I am going to use a mixer this weekend. Your comments are the reason I am thinking of adding the seeds after the gluten is developed, and to do that and not kill my mixer with four batches, I need to up the hydration. 

amazing and glad to see that hand-mixing works too as I don't have a mixer and will mix by hand. I tend to approach this a little bit like the porridge breads that I've made where I let the gluten develop for an hour or so in bulk and then added the porridge/seeds either via lamination or gently folding into the dough. 

This might be helpful for everyone pondering on seed inclusion methods....great post on IG with  an interesting discussion in the comments on how to best fold seeds in...trying to get my head around that cutting into thirds bit...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsJF2HiHCGp/

It will be a bit of an experiment... Kat

p.s. I thought I better use what I have in the cupboard and will use some Rye flakes (from trip to Germany), some mixed seeds (sunflower, poppy, linseed, pumpkin) and then some pinhead oats...

Kat, I checked out the Instagram link. I am not clear as to how the seeds are mixed in. The instructions say, “basically you dump the seeds into the box, divide in three, then push into the dough”.

Please elaborate. I need better instructions.

Thanks

Dan

but it is hidden in the comments and goes something like, where Adam explains more on this...I hope this makes more sense and have not tried this yet myself but thought it was nice to see how different baker approach this...

  • ...when you’re proofing dough, spronkle seeds over the top then cut into 3 chunks with your hands and layer the 3 chunks on top of each other and repeat.
    You’ll end up with 9 layers of dough / seed / dough / seed etc. Then when you go to shape they’ll be fairly evenly incorporated without disturbing the dough too much    
  •  

Danni's crumb is sure beautiful. 

Re. machine vs. hand mixing: With machine mixing, there is the danger of over-mixing. This does two bad things. First, it can oxidize the carotenoid pigments in the flour. They are significant contributors to flavor. You get whiter bread with a flat flavor. I have done this as an experiment with a 100% whole wheat bread. I got the most open crumb over with less flavor than ever. The second issue is that mechanical mixing performs dough folding in a stereotypic fashion. This results in a much more even crumb structure but not the desired random distribution of highly variably sized holes. Think a woven fabric versus a black widow spider web. (Yeah. Not so appetizing, but I couldn't think of a better analogy at the moment.) So, hand mixing or a short mix with 2 stretch and folds as I did will produce a nicer crumb structure (IMO) than using high gluten flour and intensive machine mixing. Better flavor too.

Re. When to add solids: I followed Hamelman's procedure and added all ingredients to the mixer bowl at the same time. Well, I did disperse the salt and levain in the water before adding the flours and soaker. I often do add nuts and seeds at the end of the mix. I have never done so with this bread. Another thought would be to do an autolyse with just the flours and the water and the levain before adding the salt and seeds. This gives you a head start on gluten development. (Yeah. I know adding the levain isn't in the original concept of autolyse. But Calvel was making baguettes with fresh yeast and a pâte fermenté. With a liquid levain like this, most of the total water is in the levain, and it needs to be part of the autolyse.)

Happy baking!

David

I have not had good luck when mixing the soaker ingredients during folds, but many do better with that.  I find it's too hard to incorporate before the dough really tightens up.

My approach is sift the bran for the levain, grind the flax seeds, and use boiling water for the soaker.  I find the sunflower seeds, oats and cracked rye get pretty soft with boiling water and don't impede the gluten structure too much.

Is the windowpane really what we're looking for with a bread like this that contains so many solid additives?  I'm more looking for gluten strands after the relatively short mixing time prescribed by Hamelman, with a hydration level I know I like to work with. 

In the process of reading Avanced Bread and Pastry, I came upon a paragrapgh that peaked my interest.

”A common mistake made by many bakeries is to continue mixing when the temperature of the dough is too cold. While the extra friction created by this process will warm up the dough, the extra mixing time will also continue to develop the gluten of the dough. The end result may be the desired dough temperature, but the dough will likely be overdevel- oped, creating gluten with an excess of extensibility (due to the breaking of some gluten strength) and a lack of elasticity. Elasticity is the property of dough to retract to its initial position after being stretched. The dough will also be sticky and very difficult to work with, and the final product will have the tendency to be flat, with a dense inside and little cut open- ing. Adjusting the first fermentation time is a much safer procedure, and is strongly advised.”

In the past I have focused on thoroughly mixing the dough in an effort to build a strong dough. But the resulting dough is sticky and hard to handle. I am now considering the possiblility that I unintentionally over mixed the dough, and in the process over worked and over stretched the gluten strands to the point of breaking.

My next attempt, unless I learn a better technique is to mix less, and trust the S&F and time spent during the BF to develop the gluten and make a stronger, more gas filled dough.

Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Yea or nay?

I keep reading, keep thinking, and keep trying.

Dan

 

I believe I said as much, although with much less informative explanation, in a couple of comments. 

When I first started baking bread, I was frightened of not developing the gluten sufficiently. It took several years for me to convince myself that flour being exposed to water for long enough and a bit of stretch and folding give more pleasing results that any amount of machine mixing.

It was probably making Chad Robertson's breads that turned on the light for me.

Now, working with enriched doughs and very low hydration doughs are other stories, but the above holds for almost all my bread making.

David

Great find, Danny. David, please explain what you mean about enriched doughs. I recently made Hamelman’s brioche using commercial yeast. The ingredients are all supposed to be refrigerated and the butter cold but pliable. The end result was beautiful. But the texture was to me cakey. I didn’t get wispy strands; the bread simply broke. It was delicious, but I was wondering if there was a problem with gluten development or over-development.  

I am no expert on highly enriched doughs. A medium rich "Vienna dough" is about my limit. But my understanding of why shortening is called shortening is that is shortens gluten strands. Doughs with lots of fat need much more intensive mixing. In fact, many of them are mixed quite a bit before the fat is added, I think. Sugar is another story. It is hydroscopic and interferes with gluten development by competing for the water needed for gluten formation.

Look elsewhere for real experience with brioche-type doughs. I don't have any.

David

Typically if sugar is below 15% you don't really need to take any special considerations for it in the mixing stage.  When you start getting in to really high sugar doughs you will need to stage your sugar additions.  Otherwise you can find yourself with a big bowl of soup (it's actually quite fascinating to do as an intellectual curiosity kind of thing).  Also when you get really high in sugar it actually slows down the yeast.  If you are able to get your hands on SAF Gold it is specifically intended for high sugar dough and it makes a world of difference.  Otherwise you will find yourself using a really silly amount of yeast to get your dough to rise in a descent amount of time.

As far as fats I've seen a number of techniques from cutting butter into really large blocks and putting them in at the start so they slowly incorporate throughout the mix to developing gluten then adding fat.  This is also a situation where if your fat is above a 15-20% it's best to add it in slowly.  Everything you said seem pretty accurate thought I'd just fill in a little more info for anyone interested!  Most brioche mixes are very intensively mixed doughs, 20+ minute mix times is not uncommon at all.

keep the dough in the mixer? I am new to this but generally do a couple of minutes to mix for the autolyse, then it rests for 2 hours. I do  a minute for adding the salt and the levain on low and then 5 minutes on speed to to develop the gluten.

If there are add-ins, they go in at the end and it takes probably a couple of minutes at most to integrate them. I don’t worry about dough temperature. I keep the dough in a warm spot and do my folds every half hour for 4 sets then go to hourly folds until I see irregular shaped small bubbles.

The dough then visits the fridge for a few hours. It gives time for the dough to ferment slowly and stiffens it for pre-shaping. It also delays the final retarding for proofing so I don’t have to get up in the middle of the night to bake as I don’t like to let my loaves proof for more than 10 hours. I am really happy with the crumb I have been getting using this method. 

After the crust sets, I want a dry oven. The convection fan, in my oven at least, vents the steam and also blows hot air over the loaves. I think it makes for a crisper/more crunchy crust, which I prefer. 

Thanks for the compliments.

David

Awesome bread, David. I LOVE it when loaves baked in a home oven look as good as anything coming out of commercial bakeries. Yours sure do. Really inspiring!

You, my man, are the inspiration! Your book is the best. I'd love to take one of your classes. One of us is on the wrong coast. <sigh>.

Thank you so much for your kind words.

David

I would love to see images of windowpanes. Please pull a nice windowpane and take a photo. Maybe a windowpane after mixing and then another windowpane after the stretch and folds and BF are complete. I think will be a great help for myself and others.

Since the add ins are a much larger percentage than the typical dough these images may help.

Danny

is the difference between the two beautiful crumbs (three,  if you count Danni's). Even making allowances for different cameras and lighting, the crumb color varies wildly. There's a lesson here, but of what, I'm not sure!

I only hope I can do half as well.

I believe the difference is photographic technique. I can tell you the color my bread's crumb has on my computer screen is very accurate. To me, Danni's photo has a bluish cast. I assume it's distorted. I am open to being corrected.

David

... very grossly oversimplify ...

 

Imagine that you created an artistic light show, in which beautiful paintings are projected onto a plain white backdrop -

 

And now imagine that one venue's organizers bought the wrong shade of blue lightbulbs, while at another venue the backdrop is an odd shade of yellow - "We knew you wouldn't mind"

 

?

 

That's how it goes with displaying digital photos, more or less.

A modified Hamelman 5-grain

It's -20 degrees outside so going to the store early in the morning to get supplies wasn't really in the cards so much as a nice cup of coffee and some toast.  So I made due with the ingredient I had on hand.

My soaker consisted of Millet, Oats, Flax Seed, Sunflower Seed and Poppy Seeds.  I also rolled the top of the loaf in sesame seeds after shaping just because I like the flavor and look of toasted sesame on the outside of a grain loaf.

My main modifications include : Substituted freshly milled Rye flour for whole grain flour because I didn't have any on hand.  Added 1.5% Vital Wheat Gluten to the dough because I didn't have any high gluten flour. 

I also decided to hand mix my dough because I hadn't done slap an fold in a while and I just kind of felt like really feeling the dough come together.  I had to add a very significant amount of water, couldn't tell you how much as this was more of a by feel bake for me and I wasn't really concerned about recording these details.  Due to the hand mixing process I folded the dough at 20, 40, and 60 minutes and then left it untouched till the a little after the 2 hour mark before moving on to pre-shaping.

Here are my results:

 

Thanks for setting up this great community bake!  I think this is a fan favorite for sure.

Happy baking,

Lyndon

 

Yes I did retard it...Only for about 6 hours though because I'm a dunce and after I put it in the fridge I accidentally left the fridge door cracked and when I went to the fridge next it was nearly at 60 degrees so instead of going overnight I baked it before I went to bed to avoid over proofing. Also a little trick for grain breads or really any bread with large particulates is that I use a really sharp serrated knife to score instead of a lame.  With a grain bread it is certainly not as important but with something like a raisin walnut bread or a bread with large chunks of cheese etc it is much more effective than a razor.   These are the one's I prefer : https://www.pastrychef.com/SCORING-KNIFE-SERRATED_p_965.html .  I carry one when I'm working in the bakery at all times and they are super handy to always have on your persons as you work.  You can keep them sharp with a basic file sharpener and over time you will wear down the serrated edge.  With heavy usage in a bakery one of these lasts me about a year so for 2.99 it's an absolute steal.  Probably my most used small tool.

I can tell you how thrilled I am to see so many gorgeous crumbs! I’ve baked this bread for years and don’t remember having such a nice crumb. These images give me great hope.

I am impressed that you were able to substitute whole rye for the whole wheat and still produce and open crumb, beautiful score, and a voluminous loaf <WOW>

I strongly suspect I am over mixing, and presently working to rectify that.

IMO, these Community Bakes are a wonderful way to improve our skills with a focus on a specific bread.

Thanks for participating. 

Dan

Thank you so much of the kind words Dan.  I probably spent about 8-10 minutes in the mixing stage.  It took me a minute to get to the right hydration and I had some descent development through the slap and folds but I think a lot of the structure I built was the folds at 20 40 and 60 minutes.  With each subsequent fold I could feel the dough building great strength.