Update 08/06/2022 :
Baking log
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Hello,
Starter is 3 days old (50% T150 whole wheat / 50% water). Below is what I did each day :
Day 1 (+24h) - Nothing happened. Only stir.
Day 2 - Bubbly, but probably leuconostocs (or whatever other bacterias, but not yeast yet). Very small refresh (70% inoculation = 70g sourdough, 15g water, 15g whole wheat).
Day 3 - Nothing happened.
Question :
What would be the best way to proceed now ? If I understand correctly, I must keep pH quite low, i.e. not refresh too much.
1. Just do a small refresh (2:1:1 or 6:1:1) every other day, and simply stir on the day without refresh ?
2. Just stir every day, without refresh, until there is a few bubbles.
Thanks a lot !
Let's get a bread from it first.
this was just a question out of curiosity =D
Of using a starter that was fed 1:1:1 and took 10 hours to peak.
1:5:4?
Ratios for starters given like that would mean Starter:Water:Flour. So do you mean 1:4:5 as in 80% hydration like you're doing?
10 hours for a starter or levain fed at a ratio of 1:4:5 is absolutely fine to use.
OK, this answers my question, thanks !
This feed:
Was just converting your 100% hydration to 80% hydration.
For your next few feeds just do 1:0.8:1 be that 30g starter + 24g water + 30g flour or 40g starter + 32g water + 40g flour.
And if it's 77F, is it that all 24 hours or is it cooler at night?
Time to peak is temp dependent (other stuff being equal).
Regardless, that looks good, so I'd do 2x feedings per day and probably make them 1:2:2 or 1:3:3. I'd stick with whatever whole grain flour you have (rye, wheat etc).
The key is to get on a routine and let the starter really establish itself, so don't vary things much for a week or so. Also, I'd try baking with that and see how you like the result.
As soon as it speeds up from peaking in 12 hours. Every time it gets stronger I would suggest a higher ratio. At the moment it's 1:1:1 twice a day because it's taking about 12 hours to peak. As soon as it reduces the peaking time then the next step is 1:2:2.
a constant 73°F currently.
Aside from temp, the other thing about hitting peak is that it will hit peak when it's consumed all the new food (i.e. the flour you've added at the last feed). So, it will take longer to hit peak if you give it higher ratios, less time at lower.
I don't mean to harp on temp, but it if dips from 73 to, say, 68 at night, that will affect the overnight doubling time. This isn't bad, but it will make peaking from the evening feeding longer that getting to peak from the morning feed since daytime is noticeable warmer.
Today, peak was reached between 9h and 10h after the refresh made this morning (1:0,8:1). Forgot to take a picture, but it nearly doubled, and was really bubbly. Temperature 77F again.
Tonight I just made another 1:0.8:1 refresh. I will be able to check starter in 8 hours.
It's getting there. You kept it a bit warmer and it doubled in a good amount of time. I'd expect it to be quicker but it's not too slow either. If in 8 hours time it has doubled or near enough then I think increasing the feed would be the next step.
Try...
1:1.6:2
In other words you're increasing the flour to twice the weight of the starter and keeping it at 80% hydration. E.g...
If that's not too much for the container you're using.
If it goes well then perhaps plan a midweek test bake.
So this morning it nearly doubled. It may have been able to rise a little more, so 8h/9h to reach peak in total. I did a 1:1.6:2 refresh (50:50 whole/white).
Checked 8 hours later close to peak (picture below : red lines for min/max). A few hours later, it didn't rise much more : so let's say a peak time of 8h/9h. However "only" 80% rise today.
Tonight did another 1:1.6:2 refresh.
Sides slope! It's not a perfectly straight glass. If it was that would be at least doubled and in 8-9 hours with a 1:1.6:2 feed.
Coming along nicely. See how it does by morning. If the same as in the picture then increase the feed.
1:2.4:3
I'm definitely in favour of a midweek bake. How about Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough?
I was thinking about Forkish's overnight country blonde, but will read Hamelman's Vermont to compare.
I was wondering : Let's say starter peaks in 8 hours. Does it mean that bulk fermentation + proofing should take 8 hours (or perheaps a little more because of the salt that slows things down a bit) ?
Also, starter will be tomorrow at 15% inoculation (1/(1+2.4+3)) and my recipe calls for 10% inoculation : should I wait that feedings of my starter match those 10% inoculation (by increasing them little by little, as we are doing) ?
Are not fermented to the same level as final doughs. Although how fast your starter works still gives you an idea how it'll perform in the final dough. Your starter is not overly fast so don't expect your dough to need les time than advised in a recipe and possibly more time.
As for matching a starter feed to being the same as a starter % in a final dough. Good idea (to get an idea of how it'll perform) but not a necessity. Starters are simply how we store the yeast and bacteria to keep the process going.
For now lets see how it performs each time we increase the feed. It looks healthy and I have no doubt it'll leaven bread. As for the timings of a recipe that's only a guideline anyway.
I'm happy how it's proceeding.
:)
That looks fine. Don't get too obsessed with 'well it was only 90%, not double' etc. That starter looks fine. I'm with @abe - time for a midweek bake. C'mon, I'm firing up the oven to 450 tomorrow and it's due to be 91F. Let's be bake buddies.
I'm all for a midweek baking trial. Eliott's starter looks healthy to me. Only way forward now is to try it.
Why not do a bake together and share a recipe with you guiding him, Clevins?
I think it would make a good one to try out. This is pretty simple. It's a 50/50 whole wheat loaf with no add ins. You can bake this in a pan or free form as a boule or batard.
If your room is warm, you can just add the water as is, but if it's fairly cool, microwave the water so that it's lukewarm. Don't worry about precision, we just want the initial dough temp in the 70s. Mix the water and flour but nothing else. Mix until there are no dry bits of dough visible, but no farther. You're not developing the dough here, just getting the flour and water in contact. Cover and let it sit for 60-90 minutes. This autolyse seems to help fermentation as enzymes do their magic.
At the end of the autolyse time, add in all the starter and mix. After the starter is pretty well incorporated, add the salt and keep mixing. I actually use my Kitchenaid here and mix on stir or speed 2 for about 5 minutes. When the dough starts clearing the bowl you're good.
Put the mixed dough in a lightly oiled bowl, cover and set a timer for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, come back, wet your hands (important! Wet hands prevent the dough from sticking to them) and do a set of stretch and folds. Cover, come back in 30 and repeat. Do this once more for a total of 3 times and then evaluate the dough. Is it resisting stretching? Let it go. Is it loose and very easy to extend? Do another set of S&F at the 2 hour mark.
After the last set of S&F, cover and let it sit. Check it every once in a while. You want to let it ferment enough, but not go too far. I look for 30-50% rise, some bubbles and for the dough to feel jiggly not firm. This part just takes practice but err on the side of letting it go a LITTLE too long vs cutting it off. In a 75F or so room (23-25C) my doughs seem to take 4 to 6 hours. Start checking it 4 hours in, about 2.5 hours after the last S&F.
Once you're done with bulk, dust a work surface with some flour and turn the dough out. Be gentle - try not to degas if you can avoid it. Gently shape it into a round that holds its shape but isn't super tight (this is another thing you just need to get a feel for). Leave it for 10-20 minutes. Come back, shape it and plop it into a pan or banneton depending on how you plan to back it.
Cover that with a loose plastic bag or even wrap. You want to avoid the dough touching the plastic while also keeping air away from the dough so it doesn't try out. Put in fridge overnight.
*About flour choices...This is pretty flexible but I'd keep it simple for your first several loaves. The main thing is to have at least half the dough be a high protein flour. So, you could also do this as with 50% bread flour/50% AP or just 100% bread flour. Or you could do some variation of WW/Bread/AP. Get your technique down first, then experiment with flour combos if you want.
To be continued...
Today, starter is not performing as well as previous days (see last log). So not sure I'll bake tomorrow yet !
After the refresh of yesterday evening, it took about 12 hours to reach peak. I did another 1:1.6:2 refresh this afternoon, and 10 hours later, previous peak is still not reached (current : green line). I think it will rise for 2 more hours. I will check tomorrow morning if it rose to last peak at least.
Beer/fruit smell was replaced by a more "neutral" one (bread smell ? not sure how to describe) since 2 refreshes.
Temperature is about the same as when it reached peak in 8h/9h (75F to 77F), for the same refresh.
And often to get the aroma one needs to break the surface.
If you can give it two more hours then fine. I'm sure it'll peak by then and give it another feed. I think you should try a bake.
How about making a levain using a bit of the discard after tonight's feed?
I was referring to the one after this afernoon's stir.
I will only be able to refresh it tomorrow morning and then hopefully resync to a refresh every 12 hours.
I will plan a bake by the end of the week, hopefully starter will get some activity back.
Loads of bubbles. I think it might surprise you and make a lovely loaf. But if you wish to see it through to the weekend then fine.
The best way to tell where a starter is at is trying a bake.
Just before feeding again tonight take a little off and try a float test. Even though it still won't be 100% proof as there are reasons why a perfectly healthy starter might not float but if it does it'll put your mind at ease.
for the peak tonight. I will only be able to refresh it tomorrow morning.
Is it better to refresh it now in this case ?
then refresh. See where it's at tomorrow morning. Try a float test.
I finally did a 1:1.6:2 refresh tonight. It rose by perheaps 60% in 12h/13h (picture). Not sure why it seems to get weaker after each refresh (peak is lower and lower, and time to reach peak does not improve) : should I switch to smaller refreshes a bit ? Flour was a mix of 20g whole and 40g T65.
Temp is about 77F during the day, and now falling to 73F during the night.
I just did another 1:1.6:2 refresh. We will see tonight.
Oh, and I forgot : it passes the float test !
But passes the float test. Contradicting!
How about you keep this feed and do not feed again till it peaks. If it peaks before 12 hours then at the 12 hour mark. If more than 12 hours then leave it till the next feed.
1) It will rise more slowly overnight (depending on how fast it cools).
2) You're in analysis paralysis mode. The goal isn't to culture some perfect starter then bake. It's to culture a good starter and bake.
This will sound harsh but... *bake something*. Quit worrying about perfection. Don't play with 0.1 ratio differences. Make this easy on yourself... feed it 1:2:2. The 1:1.6:2 thing is just too twee.
I've seen this before - I spend time on another food forum where some of us are bakers and a new guy there got in this same trap. But when he baked a loaf? It was very good. Bread is the point of all this. Make some.
It just means 80% hydration. A bit less hydrated than 100% done in order to perceive more rise. It sounds twee but it is just a ratio. The bigger the amount of starter the less twee it'll be. Just easier, and quicker, than saying 40g starter + 64g water + 80g flour.
However I agree 100% that a loaf should be baked. One can be stuck in the phase forever aiming for a perfect starter. Whenever I make a starter as soon as I see it's bubbling up every time it is fed i'll bake a loaf. Typically within a few days of the initial mix. I also don't make too much fuss over the feedings however the ratios were a guide and easier to convey than eyeballing it.
And it Eliot wants a slightly stiffer starter, fine. But I guess what I'm trying to get at there is that there's no magic feed ratio, etc.
Just advised to make it 80% hydration and the ratios were just easy to write instead of writing out a formula.
No magic feed whatsoever! In fact I often make starters without ever measuring anything. But when guiding someone they need more exact figures.
After a few days without update, here is some news !
1) Troubleshooting the starter
Last update was at day 15, where starter rose slowly (> 10h) and not much (< 50%) at 77F with 1:1.6:2 refreshes (with a mix of whole wheat and T65).
I decided to go back to 100% whole wheat at 1:1:1, to see if starter could gain more activity. After a few of such refreshes, starter was indeed quicker and quicker to rise. Little by little, I increased the refreshes. I introduced T65 flour only when starter was quite active with big refreshes (from 1:3:3).
Now, at 77F, starter peaks (double to triple) in 7h/8h with 1:1:4:4 (1 : whole wheat, 4 : T65).
2) Let's bake
Recipe I followed was "Overnight country blonde" by Ken Forkish.
- 108g starter (used at peak)
- 402g T65 wheat
- 25g T110 rye
- 13g whole wheat
- 11g salt
- 335g water (instead of 342g in the recipe)
30 mn autolysis. 5h30 bulk fermentation (78F) (4 stretches and fold every 20mn at the beginning). Shaping the loaf, and then 17h in the fridge (was not at home, so had to use fridge). 1h30 proofing at room temperature (77F).
Baked 30mn in the dutch oven with the lid, 20 mn without the lid. 1h singing (!). Here is the result :
A few notes / questions :
Shaping was quite difficult : dough was really sticky, wet and did not hold much (it spread out quite fast...). After proofing, same thing (wet / flat / sticky / difficult to handle ).
At first, I didn't want to bake it, thinking it would be a disaster. Well, the loaf is indeed quite flat, but it is delicious ! :) But after some overnight rest, crumb is a bit chewy/sticky.
For the next loaf, I would like to get much more rise / more open and less chewy-sticky crumb :
- I will try to remove perheaps 5% to 10% of water, maybe it will help ?
- Maybe the dough is overproofed/underproofed ? Not sure how to evaluate this.
- Since starter peaks in 8h, I wanted to bake after 7h/8h total fermentation (even if salt is supposed to slow down fermentation) : 5h30 bulk + 2h30 proofing (i.e. : 17h in fridge + 1h30 at room temperature = about 2h at room temperature ?) : So 8h in total. Does that seem right ? After proofing, loaf seemed to pass finger dent test (but I'm never really confident about that).
Just tried a second bake today, same recipe but with 10% less water. Dough was much easier to handle !
7h bulk fermentation and 45mn proofing at 25°C.
And such a lovely crust too. Looks delicious.
Starter clearly works and all it is now is getting used to everything and tweaking recipes to suit your needs which is what you're doing.
Bon Appetit.
for answering all these questions. Your help and patience was really appreciated !
Especially seeing the lovely bakes you're producing. Keep at it and before long keeping, maintaining and using a starter becomes second nature. Everything what I have explained is just like a recipe - a guideline! Find what works for you and tweak everything for the results you want. Forkish recipes are excellent but many people, even the most experienced bakers, can find them intimidating. To the different flours being used as a home baker and different temperatures (he wrote these for a relatively cool climate). Bear all this in mind. A great book to invest in is Hamelman's "Bread". You'll see a lot of his recipes on here for good reason... it's a solid book with lovely replicable recipes. Very popular.
Looks great! Kudos on staying with it.
This was a really enjoyable journey, and it's only the beginning. Your help was really appreciated ;)
People have made starters for generations, mostly without much or any knowledge of the biochemistry. Feed it regularly, keep at it and don't play complicated games. Some starters will subside after an initial burst, some will not.
I used Maurizio's method here https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/
What I did was use distilled water (to avoid chlorine and yes, I know about the minerals), used an organic whole wheat flour since I didnt have rye around and simply followed that method. Mine was one of those that didn't ever subside which makes it easier because there's no period of wondering what happened, but the key is to persevere and not start trying a myriad of different things.
Thanks, just feeding 2:1:1 once a day, waiting for the miracle to happen !