Update 08/06/2022 :
Baking log
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Hello,
Starter is 3 days old (50% T150 whole wheat / 50% water). Below is what I did each day :
Day 1 (+24h) - Nothing happened. Only stir.
Day 2 - Bubbly, but probably leuconostocs (or whatever other bacterias, but not yeast yet). Very small refresh (70% inoculation = 70g sourdough, 15g water, 15g whole wheat).
Day 3 - Nothing happened.
Question :
What would be the best way to proceed now ? If I understand correctly, I must keep pH quite low, i.e. not refresh too much.
1. Just do a small refresh (2:1:1 or 6:1:1) every other day, and simply stir on the day without refresh ?
2. Just stir every day, without refresh, until there is a few bubbles.
Thanks a lot !
The best way to proceed depends on the temperature at which you cultivate your starter's microflora.
All starter recipes are temperature dependent. Some starters are created at low temp, others depend on moderate or high and very high temperatures. It depends.
Thanks for your reply : Temperature is 77°F.
Even if temperature varies, doesn't the principle stay the same : don't overfeed during the first days in order not to dilute acidity ?
Once you get first rise due to leuconostocs (= or others bacterias not directly interesting for sourdough), should we do :
- 50% refresh every day (i.e. : 50g starter, 25g flour, 25g water).
- 50% every over day
- Just stir every day until sourdough is ready.
Thanks for your reply :) At 25C/77F you can (and should) refresh 50:25:25 three times per day.
If you want your lactic acid bacteria to grow, then you have to dilute acidity. Or else they won't grow. They need rather high pH to grow. And sourdough starters are all about lactic acid bacteria, because we can buy yeast with ease but not sourdough lactic acid bacteria.
Good luck with your starter! You are using fresh milled flour, so it's a bit different.
Wow, won't 3 feedings per day completely dilute acidity (= rise pH) and prevent good bacteria development ? This seems contradictory with the famous Debra Wink's article who clearly states we should aim at lowering pH (= don't overfeed) when creating a starter.
Now that I had the "leuconostoc rise", I thought I should just do a small refresh (2:1:1) every 24h, possibly skipping if no activity (= no bubbles).
If your starter temperature is indeed 77F around the clock and your starter smells stinky cheesy, then yes, refresh 1s:0.5f:0.5w 3 times per day. It can be every 8 hours (8:8:8h), or 12:6:6hours, or even 16:4:4, or 12:8:4, do it as is more convenient to you, to your schedule of sleep and daily activities.
Do it even if you do not believe in it, EIiott, as an experiment.
Again, sourdough is all about bread specific lactic bacteria and they won't grow once pH falls below 4.0. Do not let your starter's pH fall below 4.5-4.0, which is already distinctly acidic to taste, feed it. Once you have them plenty, yeast is almost an afterthought, they will grow explosively.
A whole wheat starter made from water and flour does not take more than 2-3 days to make from scratch if your room temperature does not fall below 77F. If it does, then 4-5days max. But it takes rather frequent refreshments, to keep pH above 4.0 - 4.5.
P.S. Thank you for putting leuconostoc rise in "" "". Poor innocent leuconostoc species have nothing to do with it. They do not have such powerful gassing power and do not develop first. Leuconostoc species are normal sourdough starter bacteria and make great sourdough bread but they do not make bread dough rise. Nor do they stink.
The initial gassing, acidification and stench from the starter are due to the fecal bacteria found in soil and on the surface of the grain and to bacillus subtilis, also known as hay bacillus or grass bacillus. They are the first to develop when you mix flour with water, but they completely die out within the first 24-48hours of the starter's life when bread specific lactic bacteria take over.
Is made up of both "good" and bad bacteria. While it is true SOME leuconostoc bacteria will be found in sourdough starters and other fermentations others are not so friendly, are the cause of the bad aroma in a starter in the first few days and can be harmful.
Abe, the lab tests show that by the end of the first 24hours of spontaneous fermentation of the whole grain flour and water mix six different genera of acid and gas producing bacteria grow in the mix. Leuconostoc is just one of them and in a minority, totally insignificant.
70%of that initial bacterial mass is of genus enterococci, fecal bacteria. Hence the bad smell. But they, stinky enterococci, are also very powerful acidifiers which is good, they naturally sterilise the initial sourdough better than pineapple juice for sure. If the starter is then refreshed 1:10, then by the end of the next 24hours nothing is left of those initial six genera (nothing here means less than 3%) and all microflora is already "good" sourdough microorganisms, typical of sourdough bread.
Please see this article
The evolution of lactic acid bacteria community during the development of mature sourdough
Why insist that it is not minor and insignificant amounts of normal sourdough leuconostoc spp that grow there initially but some bad smelling leuconostoc overgrowth that routinely causes that stench and initial acidification? Is there some research that confirms it?
I've had starters that mature very easily with no off smells. I had my best experience with a locally grown heritage wheat (in the UK) called Maris Widgeon. Went something like this...
After this it went from strength to strength. It just turned into a starter with no issues.
I've had others which have been a lot slower and/or a bad aroma in the first few days.
If a starter does have an off aroma there's reason to believe it's leuconostoc activity as well as other bad bacteria. For that is what they do. Cause off smells. Without testing every single starter it is a logical conclusion. Now how to go about proceeding onto the next feed is another topic. I was only talking about bacteria which causes off smells in the initial mix.
If, as you say, theses "bad" bacteria are a necessary evil in the progression of a starter then why do away with them all (or almost all) in the very first feed? Shouldn't we be using them to our advantage? Allowing them to turn the starter acidic so the yeast that comes with the fresh feeds have a favourable environment to really take hold.
If made starters relatively quickly (although never as quick as the maris widgeon flour) by not going crazy with the feedings and have slowed down starters by feeding too much too soon.
Thanks for this discussion.
Now, what is the consensus on 3 vs 1 refresh / day when trying to create a new starter ?
Since the key point of Debra Wink's famous article is :
"Before yeast, don't feed too much; after yeast, don't feed too little."
One could think that 3 refresh / day will completely dilute acidity and prevent yeast to develop ?
Where are you up to? And how much have you got?
Taking both of our comments into account i'm thinking... to give it a slightly bigger feed (24 hours after the last time) but just enough to do away with the bad smell but not such a lot it's an overdose.
So keep 50g and feed 25g water + 25g flour. If that does away with the cheesy smell then fine. If not slowly add in a bit more water and flour till it's more pleasant. Give it a very good stir and keep warm. Do not feed again till you se activity. Best of both worlds.
There is no consensus on the number of refreshes/day. Each recipe for developing a starter from scratch plays with three variables: temperature, frequency and volume of refreshment (feed) in its own way. I only suggested 3/day because you seem to like 2:1:1 refreshment of 50s:25f:25w and your room temperature is 77F.
Generally speaking, people choose recipes that suit them psychologically (their beliefs about how thing should be and should be done) and situationally. If you can refresh only once per day, because you are a researcher in the lab who works 9 to 5, you would not use a recipe with a 3/day refreshments. If you are a baker in a bakery that works 3 shifts, never sleeps, you might as well choose a recipe that requires refreshments every 2.5-3 hours and be done in a day ending up with a perfect starter ready to bake with.
Everything is about reading the starter. When making a starter we are given what we are given and taking variables into account we feed according to the starters needs. Two people might do exactly the same thing and get different results.
Flour is always 100% and everything else is a percentage to the flour.
So what you mean is equal parts flour and water by weight which is Flour 100% and Water 100% which makes it 100% hydrated.
I would have left the initial mix till it bubbled up. Which might take a day or two. Then given it a bigger feed (although not a big feed like maintaining \a starter) after which only re-feeding when seeing activity or a daily regimen of a modest feed but still more than you have stated.
For instance...
Initial mix: 50g flour + 50g water. Leave till it bubbles up.
Then a daily feed of keeping half (50g) and topping it back up by feeding 25g water + 25g flour. Keeping it warm at around 75-78F.
Then once you have a stronger starter which bubbles up every time it has been fed then increasing the feeds.
No one way is the only way but there are some good guidelines to follow. Your starter needs food but at this young stage you don't wish to dilute it too much so a nice balance should be found. Feeding too much will slow down the process as the starter needs to become acidic and you don't wish to be throwing out all the good stuff. But at the same time the bacteria and yeasts do need food. So feeding 70g starter with 15g flour is quite poor. But feeding 50g starter with 25g flour isn't too much or too little. Enough to ensure the bacteria and yeasts have food but not too much it upsets the balance. Once your starter has matured then it'll need bigger feeds.
Thanks for your detailed answer. Please find below some comments :
This step is done : I have not refreshed the initial mix until it bubbled up. Now, when I mentioned a 50% refresh, I meant 50g starter, 25g flour and 25g water, as you specify (i.e. : starter is 50% of the total weight).
Ok, I was afraid that 50% refresh would dilute acidity too much, that's why I tried a 70% refresh initially.
Temperature here is 77°F. Would you prefer a 50% refresh everyday or every other day (and just stir on the day without refresh) ?
take off 50g and top up with 25g water + 25g flour that is called a 2:1:1 feed. A poor feed for a strong starter but a good feed when trying to make a starter.
77F is perfect.
Once every 24 hours giving it a feed of 2:1:1 if you see some activity. Skip a feed if all goes completely quiet and just give it a stir.
Thanks !
So for the last two days, I simply did a 2:1:1 refresh every 24h (I also stirred every 12h).
24h after the refresh, there is no activity (maybe 5 bubbles on the top, but I don't know if it's some activity or bubbles that were slowly released after the mix), The starter is quite relaxed/fluid, with an unpleasant smell (cheesy).
Not sure if I should skip 1 or 2 refresh or keep feeding every 24h ?
Just add in a little flour, by the tsp, until it has thickened up and it isn't so runny. Try using wholegrain flour. Give it a very good stir and then cover. See what it does over the next 24 hours.
Thanks. I will try this and update.
Two years ago, a starter I made rose after 20 days ! I think it's because I used big feedings too early (1:1:1 then 1:3:3) from days 3 to 15. At day 15, I switched to 2:1:1 feedings as I was advised, and 5 days later (at day 20) starter finally rose.
So, hopefully here, something will happen within the next few days ;)
12h after last refresh. Cheesy smell has completely disappeared. Smell is more neutral now, perheaps a little bit sour ? No activity yet, just a dozen of small little bubbles.
Give it a very good stir and keep warm.
24 hours after the last feed just give it a few teaspoons of flour, and perhaps a little water but only if it gets too thick, if it hasn't shown anymore activity.
12 hours after last refresh, nothing had happened. It smelled like a mix of fresh flour and water.
A few hours later, it developped a strong acetone smell.
Now we are 24 hours after last refresh. There are no bubbles (or very few on the top, but not below or on the side). Still a strong acetone smell, which disappeared after I stirred.
It feels like I should just stir tonight instead of refreshing ?
Feed again 50g starter + 25g water + 25g flour (+ a little extra to make it a little thicker).
Acetone does mean it needs a feed.
Ok, I will refresh it tonight then. I was afraid to rise pH and delay the process : what do you think about it ?
It's about to surprise us and bubble up. I believe it does need to be fed, due to acetone smell and some bubbles, and a a feed of 2:1:1 will be fine. How warm is it where you are?
currently so about 78°F (25.5°C). Maybe down to 73°F (23°C) within the next days.
I live in London.
You too had fires lately... :/ This morning, I could smell the smoke from fires near Bordeaux, and I'm 300 km away ! Hopefully today was the last day of that heat wave
Just in time as fires did break out today in numerous locations but I think the heatwave will break by tomorrow. To be able to smell the fires 300km away is testimony to how huge they were. Scary!
This morning, 12h after last refresh, starter already developped a strong acetone smell. Also, when I stirred, I felt the starter was quite bubbly (but not really stringy), for the first time.
I can't say for sure if it expanded a bit because I made a mistake : my recipient is too large (so starter is like 1 cm thin) and I didn't marked it's level after refreshing. So I moved the starter to a narrower recipient.
Tonight at refresh, starter was again a little bubbly (still not stringy), expanded a little (like 10%/20%) and had a timid but pleasant smell of beer/fruit.
Tomorrow morning, it should be more obvious if the starter expands !
I'm a bit surprised because two years ago, the change from "no bubbles, no rise, and sour smell" to "completely bubbly and stringy, strong beer/fruit smell, at least doubled" was much more abrupt/sudden.
This time, the transition seems to happen gradually.
I can't wait to see how it will be tomorrow !
20 days and you're only on day 8 of this starter which isn't too long at all. It's sounds as if it's ready to bubble up. 10-20% risen from just a few bubbles on top 24 hours ago is very promising. And of course if your container is so big and the starter only comes up to 1 cm it'll be very difficult to read. I like the fact it has changed from acetone to fruity and beery.
Hope you did a 2:1:1 refresh plus adding in a little extra flour if it needs thickening up.
If you see come tomorrow, 12 hours after this feed, a significant rise then you can try another 2:1:1 feed. If not, then wait the 24 hours. I'm thinking this one might surprise you yet.
Keep at it. 8 days is not that bad for timing. Well within normal parameters. 20 days is a bit long.
Indeed, a 2:1:1 refresh tonight.
Oh yes, it's definitely an improvement compared to last time ! I meant, I was surprised that this time, changes seem to happen more gradually. But after all, it's only the second time I create a starter (not counting all the failed attempts), so there's a lot to learn.
I can't wait to check it tomorrow morning ! As excited as a kid waiting for the tooth fairy (in France, we have "a little mouse", not a fairy ^^).
And still love the feeling one gets when you see it come to life.
Know exactly what you mean. It's an achievement and very satisfying when you see patience pay off.
Lol... I don't think many people would be quite as happy to have a mouse paying a visit.
(Left : at refresh, Right : +12h)
So +12h after refresh, starter is quite bubbly, it rose +40%/50%. I have not stirred it yet, so unsure if texture is stringy. Maybe it will keep rising in the next hours, I will check that.
Don't be too concerned about the stringiness. That'll be more to do with gluten and hydration. Keep an eye on it and when it begins to fall give it another feed. I'm debating switching to 1:1:1.
Let's see how it progresses.
Yesterday at +16h after last refresh, starter was past its peak (around 50% rise) so I did a 2:1:1 refresh.
I had to move to another location so could not check much, but this morning nothing really new : bubbly starter, about 50% rise, beer/fruit smell. I did a 1:1:1 refresh, with a new whole wheat flour (probably better quality).
We will see !
Might give more rise because there's less overly fermented and more fresh flour. Now that your starter is alive and kicking it will benefit from a larger feed. Not too much too soon but a 1:1:1 feed is a good progression. See how that goes. If it peaks in over 12 hours but under 24 (say 16 like the last feed) then try stirring it down and see how much more it rises in those 8 hours. If it peaks within 12 hours then do another feed.
+12h after refresh, starter has not reached peak yet (or maybe close but I will check tomorrow morning). It has never been this bubbly. Temperature is still around 25°C (77F).
What should we aim before increasing the feedings : should it reach its peak much sooner and rise much more than 50% ? What will help get it more active : regular 1:1:1 feedings ?
For now, it's still "slow" and rise by not more than 50% (perheaps less, not sure since bottom of recipient is not quite straight).
Hydration and flour used might not rise as much as a stronger flour that's thicker at the same hydration. It certainly looks healthy to me and while doubling is a good indicator it's not the be all and end all. However your starter is still young and will benefit from further feedings. Looks healthy to me.
Keep up with the 1:1:1 feedings and lets see how it responds. Perhaps give it a little more flour before bed to thicken it up and it has a little extra food until you can feed it again in the morning.
Give it a good stir while adding in a teaspoon of flour at a time till it's a little thicker. What was this feed?
Thanks ! It was a 1:1:1 this morning.
Starter + Water + Flour?
30g starter, 30g flour, 30g water.
Previously, when I used 2:1:1 feedings, it was 50g starter, 25g flour and 25g water.
I think another feed tonight will be fine...
Try...
It is active and leaving it for 12 more hours might be too long. So take off 60g starter (and keep it as back-up in the fridge) and feed the remaining 30g. Your starter will now be 80% hydration.
Don't worry as the discard in the fridge will be your fail safe. And if all goes well you can either discard it or for now on store all your discard in the fridge to use up in other recipes (but don't store for too long).
Starter had developed an acetone smell, which was replaced by a pleasant beer/fruit smell as soon as I stirred. Also, it had begun to fall a bit. So peak is reached in about 12h I think.
80% with whole wheat (T150) felt quite stiff !
Let's check tomorrow morning ;)
Is always a sign it needs feeding. And if it began to fall then it had peaked. I think it's going well.
Let's see what this new feeds brings. Your starter is young. I think this is what the acetone smell is. One normally finds it in young starters but not as usual in older starters. Give it time.
Bonsoir :)
12 hours at 85F will rise much faster than 12 hours at 70F, etc. Mostly when folks talk about a starter doubling in X hours (8 or 12), they're assuming the ambient temp is in the mid to high 70F range. If you're doing this in a 68F room things will move slower. 88F? Much faster.
About 12h after refresh, starter nearly doubled. I made a refresh (30g starter : 35g flour : 25 g) a few hours later, by the end of afternoon. +4h after last refresh, starter is already bubbly, and has risen a bit (< 10%).
Should I wait a bit before increasing feedings and slowly switching to T65 flour ?
I'm a bit surprised peak is reached in 12h, shouldn't it reach peak faster ? Tomorrow, I will check every hour to properly measure peak time.
Looking good to me. Give it time! It's strengthening and looking even better than this time yesterday.
What flour are you using now?
Keep with this feed at 12 hourly intervals till you see it speed up and then we'll switch up the feed again.
Did the acetone smell come back? If that has now gone then a further proof it's heading in the right direction.
I'm using whole wheat flour (T150) since the beginning.
No acetone smell is good. Why not use a 50:50 mix of wholegrain and white for the next feed?
I'll start the transition tomorrow then. A quick question I had in mind :
Let's say you have two starters :
- Starter A : refreshed at 1:1:1 ( = 33 % inoculation ratio)
- Starter B : refreshed at 1:5:4. ( = 10 % inoculation ratio)
Both reach peak in 10h. What would be the difference between using starter A at 33% in a dough VS starter B at 10% ? Shouldn't it lead to the same result (and same bulk fermentation / proofing times) ?