This Community Bake will feature Jeffry Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain. The formula and instructions are taken from his very popular book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes". Many bakers consider this bread a favorite of theirs and I am in that group. The portion of whole grain along with the seeds makes this bread stand out among the best. The book can be Seen HERE.
For those not familiar with our Community Bakes see THIS LINK. The idea of a Community Bake is for those interested in baking and learning to bake with us and post the results. This way we can all learn together. This is not a bread baking competition, everyone wins!
I chose to post the bake today in order to give everyone time to gather the ingredients since there are 4 grains and/or seed add ins. It is not necessary to go out of your way to get the specified seeds or grains. I substitute all of the time and the bread is always great. Hopefully the bake will get into full swing by next weekend, but feel free to start right away.
I've included an additional image of the spreadsheet for those that want to bake a smaller batch. The formula is for 1000 grams, but you could easily divide each ingredient by 2 in order to make a 500 gram loaf.
Here are the instructions from Hamelman's book. If you don't already own the book, I suggest you give it some consideration.
Five-Grain Levain
by Jeffrey Hamelman
Resource --- Bread: A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes Pages 182 - 183
1. Liquid Levain --- Make the final build 12 to 16 hours before the final mix and let stand in a covered container at about 70°F. Mix Levain and Soaker at the same time.
2. Soaker --- Pour the boiling water over the grain blend and salt, mix thoroughly, and cover with plastic to prevent evaporation. Make the soaker at the same time as the final build of the levain and let stand at room temperature. If grains that don't require a hot soaker are used (such as rye chops in lieu of the cracked rye listed here), a cold soaker will absorb less water, and therefore it's likely that slightly less water will be needed in the final dough.
3. Mixing --- Add all ingredients to the mixing bowl. In a spiral mixer, mix on first speed for 3 minutes, adjusting the hydration as necessary. Mix on second speed for 3 to 3 1/2 minutes. The dough should have a moderate gluten development. Desire dough temperature 76°F.
4. Bulk Fermentation --- 1 to 1 1/2 hours (if yeast (.008%) is used). Otherwise see Step 7 for clarification.
5. Folding --- the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold
6. Dividing and Shaping --- Divide the dough into 1.5 pound pieces; shape round or oblong. Large loaves of several pounds are also a beautiful sight. And good rolls can be made from this dough. NOTE – I like to make 3 pound boules and place them into the Dutch Ovens and then refrigerate. After they are shaped I place the ball upside down on a water soaked towel and then put the wet side on a towel that is floured and filled with pumpkin seeds. This gives the bread an excellent flavor and also makes it more attractive.
7. Final Fermentation --- The dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold and the yeast should be left out of the mix.
8. Baking --- With normal steam, 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes. There is a great deal of water retention in this bread, so be sure to bake it thoroughly.
Danny
Thanks Danny. Aren’t we all on a diet. Baking all this delicious bread is super dangerous. This bread really is quite good, hard to just eat one slice.
I hope that the insides of mine look as nice as yours!
Kind of you to say Danni your breads are so consistently great. I hope to become more consistent over time.
Benny
I wanted to make a loaf for a healthy friend and I thought this would be the perfect gift (and of course I also made a second for myself). I followed the instructions this time and added the seeds in the beginning instead of during lamination like last time. I think the crumb is modestly better this time and the incorporation was certainly easier. The distribution of seeds in the loaf was also better.
My kitchen was only about 64 degrees and I had an unexpected appointment so the bulk ended up going from 7am to 3pm (8 hours!), but I don't think it was too overproofed as the loaves had nice oven spring.
Everything about the bread looks great. The crumb is as expected. Any bread with a whopping ~34% add in seeds and cracked grain will have a less open crumb.
I’m on a diet at the moment, BUT I’d eat that... Don’t think I could resist it :D
Danny
My friend was very happy with her loaf so I'm very pleased! What a wonderful recipe. Thank you for sharing. I know I'll come back to this one again and again.
Ilene, great looking bread, really good oven spring and nice crumb. Much better oven spring than mine had.
Benny
The Community Bake ended over a year and a half ago, but I’m still baking this outstanding bread!
I used the “Simplified Pan Method” for this loaf. After the BF the dough was shaped and put in a pan, then retarded overnight and baked cold the following morning. The Total Dough Weight was 1550g and was placed in a 4x4x13” open pullman pan. What an easy way to bake your daily eating bread. “Easy Peasy”.
Below the bread was sliced and spread out on a cooling rack thta will be placed in the freezer for ~1/2 hr to flash freeze. After this it will be put in a ZipLok freezer bag for use throughout the week. Because of this they will not be stuck together when needed later on.
This recipe is definitely one of my all time favorites. I look forward to making it again. Thanks for introducing me!
Thanks for reminding me of this recipe, I baked it three times with various results. I should give it another go, I do remember how delicious it was. What a great loaf you made there Dan.
It was about a year ago that I baked this bread I think three times and although I loved the flavour I wasn’t that happy with my baking. So I thought I should give it a go again as everyone loves this bread and after a year more experience baking sourdough I am hoping that my improved skills will bring a good bake.
I changed the flours to replace the whole wheat with a 2:1 ratio of whole spelt and whole rye. The seeds I used were white sesame, poppy and flax seeds. Finally a made a porridge with oats so that makes it a six grain levain bread. Using my aliquot jar I waited until it showed a 60% rise to end bulk and do final shaping. I then allowed another 1 hour of room temperature rest during which time the aliquot jar was around 75-80% rise. I’m hoping for a more open crumb but given the inclusions and the porridge I don’t expect miracles.
This bake definitely had a better oven spring than my previous attempts. I’ll post the crumb tomorrow when this is sliced.
I haven’t made that in while either but really like it. look forward to seeing the crumb
B ake happy Benny
Leslie
Thank you Leslie, although it had good oven spring the blood was strangely poor. I’d say the crumb will be on the tight side of things. I’ll post crumb photos when sliced tomorrow at lunch.
Bake happy Leslie
Benny
Nice looking loaf with some oven spring. I like the colour. I think that swapping the whole-wheat flour for 2:1 spelt and rye would result in a denser crumb, but full of flavour. The result will be in the eating.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Thanks Gavin, you’re right maybe the change in flour was the cause, although I would have guessed that the extensibility of spelt might have helped open up the crumb.
Benny
I've never made this bread but I plan to and have looked over the recipe. That's a pretty impressive rise! Can't wait to see the crumb.
I ordered some rye chops so I can make it exactly as written (which I always try to do the first time) and they just came yesterday. Right now I'm pretty baguette-focused, but am looking forward to giving this one a whirl.
Nice work as always, Benny.
Thanks AG, I can understand being baguette focused I was like that all summer and part way into the fall as well. They are kind of addictive to try to perfect, there are always things you can think of to improve upon. I’m looking forward to your bake of this bread and also your baguettes.
Benny
I am cursed with this bread, I definitely made a transcription error, which I’ll correct in my blog, in that the soaker water should have been 174 g and not 125 g. This has resulted in he closed crumb that I have on this loaf. Fortunately it is still delicious but doesn’t have the texture I was hoping for. I guess I’ll have to wait for number five to achieve what I expect of this formula.
That closeup crumb shot would be beautiful on an IMax screen!
LOL thanks Dan.
Fabulous, Benny!
Thank you Portus, much appreciated.
I like the crumb of this loaf, not being a fan of the wide-open crumbs that are the current fad. While I can admire the skill that it takes to produce lacy crumbs, I find eating bread with a crumb like you achieved with this bread to be much more enjoyable and practical.
Thumbs up!
Paul
Hi Paul, thanks for your comments. I too prefer a relatively more even crumb, but this one turned out a bit tighter than I usually like. Not to say that it doesn’t taste good, it does for sure, but it is a bit denser than I would prefer. Again, I think it was partially due to my error and I will try to get it right eventually.
Thanks, happy baking
Benny
I quite like the crumb. Don't be too hard on yourself, Benny.
Cheers
Gavin
Thanks Gavin, I’ll get over it, the bread tastes great.
The rye chops finally came over the weekend and when my plans for Tuesday were canceled late Monday, I found myself mixing a levain and soaker at midnight. I wasn't sure how far to take the mix in my Ankarsrum and may have overshot the mark a bit. Also, it was cold in house and, even in the proofer, the dough took a while to come up to temp. I probably should have bulked it longer, but the dough felt lighter than expected so I called it at 2 hours. I'll remember for next time because, despite my errors, this stuff is delicious and there will be a next time.
The dough was slightly over-mixed and under-proofed, but the thing that almost killed it was that it was under-baked. This is my third bake in a row that was underdone. I have a new Anova steam oven and the learning curve is steeper than expected. The first few loaves came out alright, but now they're all coming out with doughy innards – even skinny little baguettes! Beginner's luck is over. Arrrrgh! I will say this though: figuring I couldn't ruin the bread more than it already was, I put the two halves back together and heated it for 20 minutes at 400°F (no steam) and, amazingly, it seems to have done the trick: The bread finished baking with no real ill-effects. Perhaps ever so slightly drier than would have been otherwise, but there is so much moisture in the loaf that it didn't turn out bad at all.
Despite your difficulties AB the final bread you’ve baked looks outstanding. It has a wonderful oven spring and bloom and the crumb look awesome, more open than what I baked. You’ll get your oven figured out with more baking with it I am sure, you certainly compensated with this bake and turned out a great bread. You got the seal of approval from the author of the recipe himself!!
Benny
Nice loaf and would taste great. You're well on the way to figuring out your mixer and oven. One needs to bake to be better. I loved Jeffrey Hamelman's comment; the voice of experience is gold.
Cheers,
Gavin.
To Another Girl,
The bread looks great, and you can overcome the issues with underbaking pretty easily (spell check said "undertaking," I'm glad I reread this!). Often, bakers get "distracted," and rather than rely on their hands and senses, they might be tempted to take Internal temperatures to ascertain doneness, which is entirely inaccurate (I can elaborate on experiments if anyone is interested). Thumping, squeezing--gradually these easy things to do give us a baseline of doneness for each type of bread we are making. A highly seeded, highly hydrated bread will give you different signs of doneness with thumps and squeezes compared to a baguette, for instance. But gradually a sort of hand database will develop. Another very good way to tell doneness is to hold a loaf in both hands and ascertain its lightness. If it feels heavier than you think it should, it's likely not done. And with this test too you'll gradually build a database. Trust your hands. And you might also want to crank that new oven of yours to 500F or so and leave it there for 1/4 or 1/3 of the bake; that may help too. Above all, of course, just keep on bakin'.
~Jeffrey
I just returned home and saw your post. I gasped right out loud – but I caught my breath quickly and, thankfully, no undertaking will be required :-)
You are, of course, exactly right. I did use a thermometer despite knowing that I should rely on my senses to check for doneness. Technology can be a bit of a crutch sometimes and this is a clear example of that. Thank you for graciously reminding me to take the time to develop my own best tools. I can hardly wait to get back in the kitchen!
I hope you won't mind if I also thank you for generously sharing your lifetime of knowledge and experience... and for all the great bread!
“ I can elaborate on experiments if anyone is interested”. Please do, Jeff. I have heard you and Martin discussing the proper way to judge when a bread is done baking. Neither of you were advocates of testing with an internal thermometer.
I would like to hear more.
Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain bread is worth the entire price of the book, “Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes”.
This one formula is well worth the price of the book. In my opinion, for nutrition and taste this bread can’t be beat!
Just baked 2 large USA Pullmans. 64 slices frozen and ready for eating...
The crumb is gorgeous Dan, love the swirling vortex of seeds.
Absolutely agree. I've baked this four times since New Year and gave one to a friend who is a grain bread-nut, who rates this as the best ever. Hamelman is correct by saying, “This is one of the most delectable breads I have ever eaten”.
Your Pullman pan rendition looks perfect.
Cheers,
Gavin.
I was a latecomer to this bread, having baked it for the first time at your encouragement just a month ago. But I became devoted to it very quickly and have made it twice more since then. Thanks for the nudge on this one, Dan. It looks great as a pan bread. Enjoy!
-AG
Many times in the past the seeds were added during lamination. This dough was mixed by adding all ingredients at once and mixing in a machine. The seeds didn’t have a negative affect on the gluten as far as I can tell.
One loaf was baked without retard and the other was retarded overnight for a comparative taste test. As expected, the retarded loaf was a little more complex.
The most difficult part of making this bread is getting/keeping the various seeds on hand. For anyone who hasn’t eaten this bread before, please bake one and do so. Conversion is guaranteed :-)
Each and every bite is a gastronomic delight...
Hello all, this loaf is beautiful and I made a “ bastardised” version based on my usual technique from River Cottage, which involves 4 folds, punching down, fermentation ( 2-3 hours at room temperature then overnight in fridge). My question is , does anyone punch this bread down or do you follow the instructions precisely which unless I’m misunderstanding, does not involve punching down? Thank you.
“Punching down” generally deflates the dough by breaking and expelling the larger bubbles. This leaves only the smaller holes and results in a more uniform crumb without holes above some size that you set by how aggressively you deflate it when you “punch down”. To some extent I suspect you can get there by folding more often during bulk fermentation.
Hello Missmoneypenny,
Folding dough and punching dough down both effectively de-gas dough, so whenever you fold dough you can consider that it has also been, in a sense, punched down. The main difference between the two is that folding, unlike punching, also increases dough strength, often dramatically, so it is a highly valuable and effective tool.
As for your question about following the instructions "precisely," I've always approached that topic like this: if I encounter a new formula that I want to make, I first crunch the percentages, and if they look right, I follow the overall process as closely as possible to how it was written. So if it calls for a firm levain, I don't use a liquid one; if it calls for pâte fermentée I don't use poolish. But I try to be attentive to each step and make mental notes. At last, time to assess the finished product, both visually and taste-wise. This is when I decide if I want to make changes in subsequent batches, maybe an extra fold, maybe more or less hydration, that sort of thing. Making changes doesn't denigrate the original formula, it simply personalizes the recipe to suit the kinds of results one is looking for.
I understand why this thread is called "Hamelman's" Five-Grain Levain, since the formula came from the book that I wrote. But in truth, after almost 45 years doing this incredible and soulful work of baking, there is very, very little that I feel deserves to have my name associated with it. Yes, there are plenty of bakers who add an extra 2 grams of salt to someone's printed formula so they can call it their own, but that's just an ego trip. I'm very good at combining our relatively short list of bread ingredients in certain proportions to come up with good results, but I don't think that necessarily means my name should be attached to things. Anything I have written is, so to speak, in the "public domain." So make this (and all) breads in the way that gives you the results that please you most; it is your formula as much as mine.
Cheers,
Jeffrey
Thanks for taking the time to post DocDough. So to clarify, there’s no punching down but the folds achieve the same thing?
I wanted a fairly uniform crumb, so the dough was moderately degassed before rolling to shape.
I am truly honoured to have a reply from Jeffry Hamelman, even though I am a novice on this forum I do not underestimate my luck in receiving such comprehensive and thoughtful feedback. Thank you, and I shall be analysing and making notes from all you have said, to inform my baking, which has become a little automatic lately. Indeed ongoing reflection, correction and improvement are a big part of the satisfactions of this type of baking. It’s this mixture of intellect and involvement of all 5 senses which makes sourdough baking so satisfying. Thank you again, and to all who have generously answered my question.
The worth of any system is the sum of its components and the value that it provides - let me get this out.
TFL, established by our web host Floyd, has become perhaps the #1 English Language go-to site for amateur as well as some professional bakers over its life. Dan created and fostered the Community Bake to become exactly what you see here - and interactive sandbox and learning/sharing environment. It is what is available across all of TFL, but filtered down in the CB to focus on one aspect of the craft at a time.
Perhaps because it has created its own tiny ecosystem, it has come to the attention and attracted a few individuals over time that otherwise we would never have the opportunity to interact with. Dan had invited Mr. Hamelman to the forum a few CBs ago.
Although he is not a regular contributor, and certainly not nearly as regular as we would like ;-) , his "checking in" and attention to these must be more frequent than his comments. I'm not sure, by any stretch, whether this is somewhat unique to TFL, but Mr. Hamelman's presence here is certainly a testimony to the value that this "system" has created.
(okay, I'm done..). And welcome to the party!
Well said and thanks Alfanso!
I just can’t seem to get my hydration for Swedes loaves correct. 65% on the base dough but the grains and seeds I do about 120%. Especially the flax seeds I like em well hydrated. Meant to make batards but ended up having to put them in loaf pans. Turned out great!
500g Lancelot, 250g bread flour, 50g coarse rye, 100g einkorn, 100g bread flour.
160g flax seed, 80g pumpkin seed, 50g black sesame, 50g white sesame, 80g poppy seed, 80g thick oats which completely disappeared
Looks great James. It makes a great pan loaf as well as a hearth loaf. It really is a delicious bread that I have probably made 2nd most times in various forms.
They look great! Nice and uniform crumb. I like the blend of flours and grains you used. Sounds very good.
finally got decent hydration on this bread. I did 650g water to the 1kg mixed flour. Plus 200g starter. Cold soaked the flaxseed with 200% water. (100g flax with 200g water). Once it soaks up the water I add the sesame and poppy seed into the same container with no additional water. The pumpkin seeds are just added in dry during lamination.
Image
Love the sesame smell when I cut this loaf open.
previous attempt was so wet I had to put it to a loaf pan. This turned out well.
James, now that is just perfect, gorgeous crumb and crust. It is such a great loaf of bread isn’t it? Well done.
Benny
I am quite happy with this one. Also, i've switched to KA AP flour for the last few bakes from my Harvest King 12% unbleached bread flour. I am noticing a softer crumb. i like it very much. I was able to find 25# bags at a local Smart and Final store for $17 (vs $13 for 50# Harvest King). Though double the price, i think a good upgrade and a more manageable size.
-James
Dup removed
My first attempt at Five-Grain Levain. Details in my blog post.
Beautiful crumb Troy, really well done. How do you like the flavour of this bread, it really is quite delicious and customizable to your tastes.
Benny
The taste is very good. Not too sour, but definitely there. It was great with my eggs this morning. :-)
I used a substitution of Turkey Red for all the AP flour in the original recipe and is a 100% whole grain bread:
What does "made as a mash" mean? Thx.
Instead of a soaker, the seeds and some flour are mixed with hot water and added diastatic barley and held at 150 degrees F for 3 -4 hours, cooled, then added to levain and flours and water and salt. The mash turns dark and sweet and slack from the process. I used 10g of diastatic malted rye instead of barley. You can find a few recipes in Reinhart's book on whole grains as well as the process. The result is a creamy, sweet sour flavor to the bread. Used extensively in Russian rye recipes.
Both of these loaves look really great George, wonderful crumb especially for 100% whole grain.
Benny
Thanks Benny! Both of these loaves are whole grains and I used 100% Turkey Red with both of them and used a firm levian in both-around 66% hydration. The one made as a mash has a distinctly different taste because of the mash-more of a sweet+sour flavor-than a sour note.
Great idea George. I think I’ll have to give that a try. Never did think to deviate from the 75/25% used in the original formula. I have some Hard Red Spring Wheat that is high in gluten. We’ll see...
I’ve been baking more and more in bread pans for my bread stash and preferring the profile to free form.
So I finally got to baking this bread. Didn't have any cracked rye or anything similar, so used crystal rye malt what I crushed by hand. Also I didn't realize I had very little sunflower seeds left, so added some sesame seeds to top up the amount.
Here is the formula: https://fgbc.dk/1cen As you can see there, I added extra water, as it appears pretty much everyone has done here. I had zero liquid in the soaker left (it actually got absorbed really quickly - I used hot water). But after adding the last bit of this extra water I actually immediately regretted it, since the dough suddenly became just a little too sticky for my preference, and didn't really lose this during fermentation. Did a short fermentolyse without salt and seeds, mixed them in, 3x30 min stretch&folds, 1 hour bulk at 24C after that, shaped, coated in pumpkin seeds as recommended, and retarded overnight. All the way I thought the dough felt strange - it held its shape well, but had very little extensibility. I guess all the seeds get in the way of that. Anyway, it baked up nicely and tastes great!
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So next time I'd add only half of that extra water, that's the only thing probably.
I like the look of this loaf. Nutritious and tasty looking. Cheers, Gavin.
Thanks Gavin! Very full of seeds, so must be very nutritious indeed. And tasty, of course.
I agree with Gavin, that is a handsome loaf Ilya, well done. I like the exterior coating of seeds in particular and the rich colour of the crumb. Do you like the flavour?
Benny
Thanks Benny! Pumpkin seeds stuck surprisingly well, when I used them for coating previously they fell off very easily. Flavour is great, very rich with all the seeds. My girlfriend says it is one of her favorite breads that I've made. While I joke that it's like bird food :)
Ilya, with 34% seeds this dough should feel strange. many of us added the seeds during lamination, but they also mix well in a mixer when added with all other ingredients. Often, I am a fan of lower protein white flour, but for this one high protein white flour is beneficial, IMO. The flavor has a lot to do with the seeds...
Various seed selections have all worked well.
Question - was the crystal rye malt diastatic?
I tend to use the same bread flour for all bakes (I got a big 16kg bag of it, so until it's used up I'm not using anything else as the main white flour). I tried to stick to the recommended seed selection first time baking this, but had to adapt a little to what I had on hand.
Crystal malt is not diastatic - it's a kind of roasted malt. Originally I was using it as a substitute for red rye malt, but now I've got the real deal, so I just add crystal malt berries, whole or roughly crushed, for texture and flavour to some breads.
I have made a blog entry for this bake at:
5-Grain Levain | The Fresh Loaf
This is wonderful bread and now my favourite.
I currently maintain a stiff whole wheat starter, so I figured I could make the refreshment larger and use the discard in the morning to leaven this dough. So basically all of the whole wheat flour in the formula is prefermented.
Mixed it by hand and no matter what the dough was really shaggy. It was also surprisingly stiff. I considered adding water, but then decided to just dump it in the bowl and see what would come out in the end. It did become smooth after a few folds, but felt really stiff all the way to the end of bulk fermentation. The loaves kept their shapes really well in the bannetons and rose higher than usual, at which point I decided to bake them. Aaand of course they collapsed in the oven.
The crumb is a lot moister than one would expect.
Not sure how I like the taste, I only got one slice. This is a tricky dough, I have to make this again.
the recipe for next week’s bake. Although with the amount of changes I’ve done, I don’t think I can call it Hamelman’s 5 grain levain anymore. I guess it’s more than just a tweak.... I added a whole pile more seeds keeping the amount the same and varied the flours included. So I’m calling it Seeded Multigrain Sourdough. ??♀️
Something to consider for this 5-grain bread: My starter is rye 85% hydration and is a total of 47-grams. After I fed it I have 37-grams left over that I use to convert to a white levain over two feeds. By the next morning, I have elaborated enough levain for the day's baking at home. I think that your whole wheat starter would behave the same and be very active. I hand mix also and for this bread, I don't autolyse. I stretch and fold for 15 minutes. By careful attention to temperatures 25C, I can bulk ferment over 1 1/2 hours (one fold at 45 minutes), shape and bench rest 10 minutes, then final proof one hour. The dough holds its shape when moved to the peel and scored. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Gavin, 1.5 hr BF?
Are you using CY also?
Yes. I overlooked that. 0.3% IDY. I don't retard the final proof.
Gavin, many bakers, including myself, have noted that the flavor is best when the CY is omitted and the dough is fermented longer. Have you baked it without CY? If so, did you notice a taste difference?
No, I haven't tried that yet. David (dmsnyder) recommended a cold retard also in another thread. I'm aware of Hamelman's instructions for the cold final proof and will give it a try soon. The flavour of this bread is exceptional and I've been really happy with it. How long do you retard the final proof and at what temperature?
Finally got around to revisiting this one. My first attempt turned out OK, but I struggled with hydration. Had to add water. Added too much. Had to add flour. In the end, wasn't sure where I ended up.
Started this bake at 65% hydration for the final dough, and it worked well. Rather than a levain, I chose to go with a small inoculation and a long ferment. Because of the inclusion, I used a shot glass for an aliquot instead of my narrower, straight sided aliquot tubes. It was tough to read because the graduations were so small. I should have taken a larger piece of dough for the aliquot. But, it gave me some indication of how things were progressing.
Decided to go with seam side down for the final proof. Seemed like the right look for that loaf, and I'm happy with how it came out. Photo doesn't do the crust color justice. It's a deep reddish brown. Looks like decent oven spring, and the loaf seems to have uniform spring. It plumped up nice in all directions. Proof will be in the crumb, and I'll be slicing it in a few hours. Earlier than I want to, but this one's slated to be eaten this afternoon!
EDIT: I am liking this method more and more for making loaves with a sandwich bread type crumb.
That looks great Troy, do you like the flavor of this bread without the sourdough tang?
Benny, It’s SD. Rather than using a levain, I did a 4% inoculation with a 12 hour bulk and a 3 hour final proof. Will be trying it in a little bit, but it smells good!
Also, the first time I made this I kind of botched it. So, I don’t really have a good comparison. 😁
OK, when I looked at your spreadsheet I saw the raisin water and nothing in the preferment columns so thought it wasn’t sourdough, my bad.
Benny
No worries! 😁
I’ve been using a YW/SD combo on just about all of my bakes. It gives me that extra bit of confidence that I’ll get good leavening, and it adds another layer of flavor. I have a blueberry YW fermenting now and will try it next weekend.
Your YW experiments are interesting as well. It will be fun to see what the blueberry one does from a flavor perspective.
Mary
Thank you Mary. It will be interesting to see if I notice a difference, but my guess is I won't. Not sure if I have a refined enough palate. :-)
I used a portion of my RYW to kick off the BBYW and cut down the required fermentation time. I'll keep the BBYW going separately now to see how boxed California raisins compare with locally grown and frozen blueberries from last summer. If nothing else, the color is different. :-)
I'm going to give it a try this weekend :-)
I know I'm late in this challenge, but can somebody tell me what kind of rise I should aim for during the bulk fermentation (30%-50%..??) and then during the last rise (70...80%..??? ? Thanks!
Never too late!
For mine, I did my last set of bowl kneading (which fully degassed the dough and serves as my preshape) at 25% in the aliquot and then let final proof go to 75-80% before going into overnight cold retard.
Thanks a lot for sharing!
I would be very grateful if someone could tell me where I could find the spreadsheet, please...
Thanks !
I've PM you a link to my dropbox. Change your desired dough weight (grams) in cell E4.
Download the file before you play with it, please.
I struggled a lot to knead the dough by hand...In retrospect, I might have been able to get a nicer gluten development using my Kitchen Aid
I followed the no yeast / overnight retard option:
30mn autolyse with levain
Mix with soaked seeds (sunflower + flaxseeds + oats + cracked ryes) and salt + 5g of water
I kneaded by hand 3mn, then rest for 10mn, then kneaded again for 3 mn, then 10mn rest again, then again 3mn of kneading, rest for 10, then S&F
Bulk at 27-29°C for 3h with 1 S&F after 1 hour
Shaped in a boule, then rest 1h at 28°C
Fridge at 3°C for 9h
Baked in a cocotte for 25mn at 230° + 20mn without lid
Result: barely any oven spring.... crumb very dense...but really delicious!!
Thanks for all the tips and tricks this community bake provided me during this bake, especially as a newbie it's invaluable!
Well done, I love the ❤️ score on top too, nice touch.
Benny
Haha! Thank you, Benito, I wanted to have a bit of fun...I would be very grateful if you could tell me what you think of the crumb, please... I would love to know what I should work on the next time to get a less dense crumb, apart from the initial kneading I guess...Thank you!
I think that this style of bread isn’t going to have a hugely open crumb. There are a lot of inclusions which weigh the dough down and then also the porridge. I struggle to get anything open with the addition of porridge. As you’ll see in this thread there really aren’t many examples of a more open crumb for this loaf. I think that the even crumb is characteristic of this style of bread and you’ve done well. Hope you’re enjoying the flavor of it, it is really a delicious bread.
Benny
You are absolutely right, of course, Benito! I just like to know what could be improved so I can learn from my experience...This bread is absolutely delicious, that's for sure!!! I am going to do it again, but this time I will try to knead using my Kitchen Aid mixer, just to see if it makes any difference. Thanks!
Gaëlle
Haha! Thank you, Benito, I wanted to have a bit of fun...I would be very grateful if you could tell me what you think of the crumb, please... I would love to know what I should work on the next time to get a less dense crumb, apart from the initial kneading I guess...Thank you!
Gail,
I think the openness (if that’s a word) of your crumb looks great for this bread. I actually prefer that nice, even crumb that you have in this loaf.
When you say dense, do you mean the tighter crumb of this loaf, or is it “heavy”? This bread has a fair amount of water in it with the soaker and takes a little extra baking time.
Great first 5-grain bake!
Troy
Actually, I said dense but it's not what I really meant...the crumb is pretty ''closed'' but at the same time soft, light and airy..In fact, I think I like it this way! But I am still going to re-bake this bread as soon as possible to compare hand kneading versus kitchen aid; I'm usually not a fan of kneading with a mixer, but this time I'm really curious to see if it would change anything for this particular bread
Thanks a lot for your feedback Troy, I really appreciate it and again, I am really looking for any constructive critic or advice to improve my baking, so please do not hesitate! ;-)
Gaëlle
Gaëlle,
The first time I made this bread, I followed the formula, but found the dough to be very dry and stiff. Almost unworkable by hand. I kept track of the extra water I added and ended up at 65% hydration versus the 57.5% in the recipe. The last two times I made it, I started at 65% hydration, and the dough was very easy to work.
Not sure where you were at with hydration, but that may also be something to look at too.
Troy