For sure Kat, (aka, “not.a.crumb.left”) and I will be baking Trevor’s Champlain SD. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/
We last baked this bread here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55123/overproofing-underproofing-sourdough-or-just-bad-shapingwhat-does-it-look.
Since most bakers are separated by many miles and even different countries, this “community bake” may be the second best way to share information and learn together along the way. The idea, for those who want to participate is that we document our progress with pictures and post. It is suggested that each participant start a reply to document their progress. As more information and images are available you can edit that post and append it. We’ll share our success, and just as informative, our failures. During the process we can ask questions, compare results, or offer suggestions. Both pro and novice have a place here.
We plan to start our bake today. Following Trevor’s video. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ , we’ll begin with an overnight premix (autolyse with salt). And get our starters fed and active for the next day’s final mix.
I hope others choose to join in. The more the merrier. Even if you don’t come aboard now you can still post your results at any time in the future. All threads are constantly monitored for recent activity. Be sure, someone will be available to assist you.
Dan
You seem to be very consistent, a great accomplishment. Your loaves look great!
Are you using the standard 70% hydration?
Dan
Al, I score and it goes directly into the Dutch oven. That’s it, and keep my fingers crossed. I have found since using a glass domed lid on my Dutch oven, not the flat one that came with it, has really helped the oven spring. I forgot to take a picture of the score before baking.
Dan - I am using Trevor’s ratios - taking into account the increase in levain. Because math is not my strongest suit, Abe helped me work out the amounts. Did you see the knife? I must say, I don’t know when my lame is coming, but this point, I don’t even care. This knife has worked well for me.
So I used: 374g organic all purpose flour, 38g whole spelt; 9 g whole rye (instead of 19g); 279g water and 9g salt. I find that ratio works well for me. It was a bit sticky this time and I think it’s because I let the autolyse go for 3 hours instead of two.
The flavor is mild with a hint of sourness and it’s probably because I am not using a mature levain like Trevor does. My starter does have some rye in it from earlier feedings but when doing the levain build, I am using all purpose or bread flour -the last two times I used all purpose.
Not sure if I’m ready for a higher hydration at this point.
Hi Sharon,
Very pretty loaf and cumb! My approach was to learn as much with the Champlain and I lost count how often I baked it now and then to sloooooowly up the hydration. So you might find that the 75% hydration would not be actually that much more and experiment...OR you might try and get more open crumb with the existing stiffer version.....That's the beauty of this, isn't it...
I noticed that you are saying:
I did 5 sets of S & F's, over 3 hours, then another bench rest of about one hour, pre-shaped and rested about 30 minutes, shaped, rested another 30 minutes and then in fridge for 16 hours. Baked at 450F for 20 minutes in dutch oven, then 20 minutes without lid.
So you are doing some folds in 30 min intervals rather than the hourly suggestion from Trevor?
I seem to remember that Trevor says in his book that stiffer doughs seem to need less folds than wet doughs which need the 30 min interval folds or even more...Soooo....
I wonder if you leave more time between the folds and a longer bulk fermentation whether that would give a different crumb? I know though what you say about overproofing as my dough gets really bubbly once it hits that more than 3 hour area....just a thought........Kat
Hi Kat, I timed my sets between 35-40 minutes. The reason being is that Trevor advised me that if I increase the levain that would speed up bulk fermentation - plus it was getting late - I never time myself well when I decide to make bread! So I allowed some bench rest time - but because I didn’t do the overnight autolyse and increased the levain - I didn’t want to wait one hour between folds. Actually I probably could have eliminated the 5th one, which I did with the one before.
This is still a work in progress for me - maybe next time I will increase hydration and see what happens. Your bread is always lovely!
Sharon,
Ditto...you are doing amazingly well yourself! I believe in life-long learning whatever the age. I am involved with Primary and Secondary schools and it breaks my heart when youngsters loose that enjoyment of learning because they are too afraid to fail and don't even try anymore....so let's share the failures and the successes and have fun! Kat
I have a serrated knife and tried it. It works well, but I’m not sure that I am getting as large a bloom as you. Maybe I’m over proofing a bit.
Dan
Hi Dan, if you notice the blade on my knife (which is a knife for slicing roasts) has that upward curve. I think that’s why I have been having some success with scoring. No idea but this knife works better than any other serrated knife I have.
when I do the final shape, my dough never seems to be too proofy. I actually worry that it’s underproofed. So when I see some of those gas bubbles on the dough, I get excited. Mine start to become visible when doing the final shape.
I’m not sure what the difference is. And my fridge is very cold - I need to take the temperature of it. But Trevor has me scared about over proofing the dough. So when I take the dough out to bake, I am amazed at the oven spring.
I try to make the slashes quick and with as light a hand as possible so that I score it but not too deeply. Each time feels like a new Adventure.
Hey you guys are so ahead of the curve with your baking and spreadsheets and increased hydration levels that I am playing catch up. Thanks for all the encouragement.
Just when you think you have it figured out something changes. At this stage I have no idea of how to attain one crumb style vs another one. I’m just so happy when it all comes together.
I haven’t tried a serrated knife, your crust and crumb are very nice indeed.
well done, look forward to the next one.
Leslie
Repeat of this bake this time focusing on building strength with a shortened autolyse.
#1 this time was mixed using Rubaud method. To start with Autolyse was only 30 minutes followed by 10 minutes of stretch and folds and Rubaud mixing. Rest of 10 minutes then another 5 minutes Rubaud mixing. At the first S & F set I did 10 stretch and folds followed by 3 tension pulls.
Then every 30 minutes after I did a set of tension pulls only. About 45 minutes after last tension pull I felt dough was ready and preshaped,
rested 30 minutes, shaped and retarded overnight.
#2 I gave this dough about 35 minute autolyse, mixed in levain and salt using stretch and fold then followed with 5 minutes of slap and fold. 30 minutes later 1 set of 10 slap and fold.
This was followed by 3 sets of stretch and fold at 30 minute intervals. As for #1 45 minutes after last stretch and fold I preshaped
30 minutes bench rest before shaping and retarding overnight.
This morning baked both at same time, 15 minutes lid on 250 deg C followed by 15 minutes lid off at 230 deg C.
Disappointed once again!
#1 and crumb
Crumb is ok but not as open as I had hoped for and it spread again so is flatter!
# 2 and crumb. This nearly slid off the sling and it took a bit of doing to get it in the DO and it had spread quite a lot by then.
The day was very warm with kitchen at about 28 deg C to start and 25 deg C at end. The total time from mix to shape was only about 4 hours.
I think I will leave this bread for a while. Despite my efforts, it remains one step too far. I suspect it is something to do with the flour (and my skill level too!) I need to bake some more sucessful loaves for a while.
I used up surplus levain by doing a simple 1:2:3 loaf (750 g so bigger than the country champlains). Short autolyse, slap and folds followed by stretch and folds. Similar timings to the above 2 loaves. Similar bake. Here is what I got
Crumb
Very happy with this simple white sourdough loaf!!! So back to very basics, old recipes etc that I know work for me and maybe I will try again during our winter because despite my frustrations and disappointments, I love the flavour of this bread and would like to do it properly.
Leslie
All these bakes are pretty. Be proud of them!
peter
the taste is always good, and I actually thought this time the dough handled better.
Leslie
That 1:2:3 loaf is just gorgeous!
I loved the blisters,
Leslie
Hi Leslie,
It is a beautiful crumb but I know what it feels, if the loaves don't turn out and one falls in to flat bread depression and very frustrating......
If the simple white works with same levain and methods does that leave the flour then or not? ORRRR..could it be to use more levain in the Tartine Country ? Bear with me...
I was curious and just looked at the difference of a number of recipes as I was also pondering where to go next:
Tartine Country Loaf:( and I know you love the taste of this bread and totally agree...)
250g Bread Flour
96g Whole Spelt
48g Whole Rye
330g Water
9g salt
75g Starter @ 100% Hydration (half all-purpose flour, half water)
Based on your spreadsheet 75% version of Champlain:
322g water
375g White breadflower
37g spelt
18g Rye
Whenever I tried the Tartine Country I was shocked at how much wetter just the 8g water difference makes the dough but this could be also down to the higher amount of spelt which should be balanced the rye though.....and the overnight premix which was a killer for the UK flour...
NOW: The recipe below is from the before mentioned Sourdough book...who use a number of amazing wholewheat,emmer and einkorn recipes...and suggests the sift and scald method to help with the higher hydration...they also say that using wholewheat and higher hydration means a balance with oven spring and I think Trevor says the same in this book....
For the leaven:
40g mature starter
30g water at 30F
15g white strong bead flour
15g fine whole wheat spelt or emmer flour
For the bread dough:
150g fine whole wheat or spelt or emmer flour (30%)
350g strong white bread flour (70%)
424-450g water at 30C (75g of water is used to boil the bran sifted of the 150g and left 4-8 hour to be added at the same time as salt - they combine leaven, flour and water and let it rest for 1 hour)
10g salt 2%
100g leaven (20%)
I was wondering as a next step whether to bake both and see how they compare.....This probably does not help at all .....sorry......
Kat
Your skill level has shot up immensely and you are probably ahead of me. I think you should give it a go.
Just don’t quite get why my loaves are spreading. As I said, I will give this a break for a while, as I have been so focused on this and the earlier experiments that I now want to just bake without second guessing myself all the time. In addition, we will be away for about 3-4 weeks on a 4WD adventure in our south island plus some just touring time, so probably only 1 more bake before we go.
I think next time I will maybe reduce the spelt/rye combo from the 34-35% it is now to a lower % maybe say 28% and see if that is better.
the scald method is interesting and I will look into that too - later.
For now, you are on a roll just keep on enjoying it and I will watch progress of all those taking part.
Leslie
Thank you Leslie and your praise means a lot! I hope this does not come across patronising but when I have worked with children I always said try to assess where you are without looking at others... we all learn differently and we have a different 'next step' that helps us to move on...you are not there YET..but you will be as long as you keep trying...
YOU have baked so many things and so many breads...whereas I am at the moment just focusing on the Champlain to learn....and have not baked much else! He, he... Your 4WD adventure sounds so much fun! Kat
Kat - you inspire me! Leslie, all your breads look fantastic. Actually everyone on this site and especially this thread has contributed so much!
When I get brave, I might try the Tartine Country Loaf. Maurizio also has some high hydration recipes if you want to experiment there. His beginner sourdough is also a great place to experiment. It’s not super hydrated.
Trevor's book and website has been an incredible experience.
Kat, somewhere in this very long thread is your formula for the 75% hydration?
Bake on everyone!
but here again... give it a go......
322g water
375g white bread flour strong
37g spelt
18g rye
48g leaven but I actuall used 50g
9g salt BUT i feel 10g works better for me
I don't do the premix overnight but a normal autolyse for about 1 1/2 and then add leaven and salt and then Rubaud.. I normally start my Leaven at 8AM 40;40;40 or 40:30:30 and it will take approx. 4 hours to be ready to mix all together at 12:00ish so to go in the fridge in the afternoon and to bake first thing early in the morning the follwing day.....Let me know, if you need more info....
your bakes too have got so much better, its wonderful. Try the Country loaf, just watch your hydration - I have dropped it to around 74-75% as my flour cannot handled really high hydration (or maybe I don’t have the skills to do it!)
happy baking Sharon
Leslie
Makes the process less discouraging and gives hope!
Leslie, the 1-2-3 recipe just works - I fall back on that one and will probably always use it. Especially when I mess up on another recipe, the 1-2-3 always is a success.
As to blocking drains - I thought about that - now I'm discarding into a container!
Keep those recipes coming and photos!
it has always been my favourite, easy to make, easy to change the flours, usually works fine!
that Trevor lists for his Champlain Sourdough not enough for the initial mix? I used Rogers No Additives Unbleached flour and milled my own Spelt and rye flour. I had to add 10 g of water to be able to get it all wet.
And yes, I decided to join the quest for huge holes if only for one loaf. ?
Danni, most of us have upped the hydration to 75%.
For an 800g loaf the difference between 70% and 75% hydration is less than 2 tablespoons of water. That amazes me how so little water it takes to make a bid difference. I’ve started to watch the amount of water on my hands and tools.
Dan
you should not have too many problems with flours or skills. look forward to it.
I have become a convert to using bran in my levain build. amazing the difference it makes, and all down to your encouagement (and to be fair ? dabrownman)
good luck on your journey.
Leslie
but the opportunity to join in hadn’t presented itself. This week turned out to be fairly free in terms of obligations and hubby inhaled the loaf I baked Sunday, so I thought I would give it a shot mid-week. I just took out the dough out of the fridge to warm up overnight.
Its good to know that some of you are adding extra water. There was no way that I was going to be able to get all that Flour hydrated without those extra 10 g. I’ll have to calculate what 75% hydration is so that I can add the rest with the Levain.
I loved your other loaves that I have been seeing here... Kat
Danni, I failed to mention why we upped the hydration. We think that wetter dough will produce more open crumb. And at 75% the dough is fairly manageable.
Dan
I added, I used 60 g of starter just to use up what I had so my hydration ended up at slightly over 72%. I have been the dough in a warm place now and doing mostly hourly folds. I had left it on the cool counter while I ran out for my Pilates class but now that I am home, I can watch it do its thing in a warm place.
It took some work to get it all worked in, but this last time I put the water in the bowl first and then added the flour and that seemed to help. I used La Milanaise Organic flour which isn’t that absorbent so my initial concern was that it was going to be soupy, but it was ok.
Danni, I am sure with your skill set, you’ll get those holes!
I really like the blistered loaves and a dark bake.
I’ve been careful when handling the dough. Looks like it needed more shaping. I tried a new method of shaping. Back to the drawing board.
”Fermentation and handling are 80% of the Open Crumb”. Need to rethink the handling.
I can’t possibly eat all of the bread I bake. My neighbors get regular delivery...
Dan
the crumb is quite open, so maybe just a few tweaks are needed.
How was th3 levain build or is that for the next loaf?
Leslie
Dan, Another beautiful bake! We are all getting better and learning so much each time, don't we...
I recently rediscovered the amazing work from the artist Andy Goldsworthy and have a look what happens to him...it shows if we continue going something will come out for us...it might not what we expected but still beautiful...sorry I am digressing...nothing to do with baking you will say..... sooo I think every time we bake, the dough speaks to us and we learn more about it...just also like Trevor says....For Andy it is the stone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KklH72SRf2M and jump to 0:53 ...... and again to 8:07 if you don't want to watch inbetween...inspirational....
Oh......this was interesting....almost forgot...
have a look at latest post from Trevor on IG...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf_1e0DnvEf/?hl=en&taken-by=trevorjaywilson
Very refreshing what he writes about low hydration 'pioneer' loaves here and whilst I practise open crumb it is ultimately about versatility for me and 'knowing the dough'.....
ALSO - in a comment he talks about his FOLDS and THERE AGAIN - are the tension folds! I might try this in my next 75% Champlain... the bulk fermentation seems to be around 4ish hours for me anyway...
It is interesting as Leslie gets a beautiful open crumb with her tension pulls and I thought it is what creates a more honeycomb type crumb in my case....I might try below and see what happens.....
Quote from IG:
"I've been bulking for 3-4 hours, usually with folds every 30 minutes for the first 2 hours, then moving on to tension pulls every 30 minutes for the remainder of bulk. But nothing is ever given. I often change it up as needed. Different recipes and doughs call for different treatments. Sometimes I bulk longer, sometimes shorter. Sometimes I give it more folds, sometimes less. Just gotta give the dough what it needs given the conditions."
"I can’t possibly eat all of the bread I bake. My neighbors get regular delivery..."
I've been sending pics of my loaves to my mom, who lives across the country. The other night my dad says, "So, did you eat two whole loaves of bread this weekend? Are you going to have a pot belly when we come to visit this summer?"
I did the same. The neighbors seem to appreciate my hobby nearly as much as I do.
Yep....same here. just bumped into my neighbor coming home from walk with the dog and she asked when the next bread iis ready! Another friend asked, whether I can donate some loaves for her school's quiz night? Slowly building that business case for the Rofco....... Kat
p.s. Friends from London who came to stay last week end are sending me now pictures from their local Artisan bakery with crumb shots! It is infectious!
So funny, it is hard to live with sourdough people! In my house it is the fight for the fridge thermometer at the moment. I turn it up, someone else turns it down....I turn it up again and so on......
https://arnoldzwicky.org/2015/10/22/bread-play/
Love it!!!
during the bake! So my loaf has a flat top! I should have scaled the total flour back to a total of 367 g but didn’t think of it. I am so used to making batches of 3 loaves that it didn’t look like a lot of flour. Next time, I need to use my bigger Dutch oven or scale things back.
I couldn’t wait. I cut into it warm.
You can see where the crumb got squished by the lid. Oh well, will have to try this again one day.
Outstanding. Boy, did that baby bloom!
What observations can you report from this first bake? We're eager to learn. What hydration did you go with?
Dan
First off, I tried to follow Trevor’s methods as posted on his site as faithfully as possible.
1. Loved the premix method. The dough felt really silky but I am not sure if it was due to the amount of white flour in there or not since I usually work with a lot more whole grain and add-ins in my doughs. We will find out as I have adapted the recipe for this weekend coming up to this technique. I did use freshly milled Spelt and rye flour. The Levain was half AP and half Wholewheat at about 100% hydration.
2. Because of the small amount of dough not filling my Cambro bucket, it was hard to see when the bulk had reached 30% rise. I ended up depending on the look of the bubbles through the translucent bottom and on the time. The dough did not feel especially poofy to me. Bulk was about 5 and a half hours. First couple of hours were on the counter at room temp (73F) since I went off to Pilates and the rest were in the oven with the lights on and the door cracked open (~82F).
3. I couldn’t believe how nonsticky this dough was. Once I got the Levain mixed in, and I used his rolling methods to do that, my hands stayed clean after each set of folds. I was able to easily use Trevor’s rounding technique on my granite counter. Not a speck of dough stuck to the counter. Least amount of flour I have ever used for preshaping.
4. I covered the banneton with a barely damp towel but the dough was drying out. I wet my fingers, ran it over the dough and then used my usual plastic bowl covers.
5. I usually retard my loaves so deciding that the dough was proofed enough and trying to time the preheating of the pot and the oven was a pain. I kept poking the dough and as soon I got a slow push back and the dough had shown some growth in the banneton, I baked it. That was just over 2 hours at room temperature. I was deathly afraid of over proofing the dough.
6. Because my loaves are usually baked right out of the fridge, the dough is firm enough for me to pick it up by the edges and drop onto parchment rounds in the hot pots. This didn’t look like it would work and I was afraid the dough would fold in half or I would burn my fingers so I used the crumpled parchment sling method.
7. As said in my post above, either scale the amounts back to fit my 3 quart DO, or use a bigger pot.
Oh, hydration ended up being 72% because I added 10 g of water and used 60g of levain instead of 50g as called for in Trevor’s original recipe.
And it tastes fantastic! Especially when warm! ?
Thanks for the thorough report, Danni. It not only helps me, but I'm sure others will learn from your experience.
One thing I've been wondering about lately. How come some people (generally the very experienced) seem to work with the dough with no trouble and others have a fit. 72% is not really wet for artisan bakers, but you talked about how dry it felt, no sticking. Here is my question. How is it that when we view a video of a skilled baker, the dough looks much drier than ours? I know the handling skills make a tremendous difference when handling the dough, but what about when it is sitting on the bench, untouched? The dough looks a lot drier than what we see when looking at our's. Handling and structure is one thing, but why does our dough look wetter when stretched, pre shaped and finally shaped? I've been careful lately to watch the amount of water that is on my hands and tools. I've discovered that a small amount of water can affect the hydration. Please share your thoughts. I welcome the thoughts of others also.
In my case, it may be my propensity for higher hydration. I err of the side of more is better. I often push the envelope when it comes to hydration.
Danny
"inquiring minds want to know"
its the flour that’s used. For example, many people struggled with Ken Forkish’s recipes as they found them too wet. I had no trouble at all. I know my Canadian flour is very absorbant. It also helped that his timings worked for me since we both have the same room temp.
The one that gives me fits is Tartine 3. I got Robertson’s recipes to work only when I cut back on the hydration. I don’t know what kind of flour he uses but it must soak up water like a sponge. My dough was very wet and his looks very dry in his video. My breads did not and do not have nice oven spring or an open crumb when I use too much water. I tend to err on the side of less when it comes to water in dough.
Now that I mill my own, I will have to try some Tartine breads again. The fresh flour is very absorbant.
You said, "I tend to err on the side of less when it comes to water in dough" and also, "My breads did not and do not have nice oven spring or an open crumb when I use too much water"
Interesting statements, I've always thought the most open crumb was achieved with very high hydrations.
I'll have to try your advice
Thanks...
Dan
that that is what they say but I stopped chasing that beast a long time ago.
Hi Danni,
I have done another one of these Champlain SD which I posted at the end of this very very long thread. But I wanted to tell you that somewhere (can’t remember) I was looking at flours, etc and it said that Chad Robertson uses a “Bolted” flour. I have absolutely no idea what that means - I’m too new at this - but I figured you would know. I used Red Fife White Organic flour and it turned out to be quite hydrated - a bit hard to handle during the pre-shape.
Thanks for all your expertise and bread wisdom!
that has been sieved through a fine cloth. Here is a link to old fashioned bolting.
http://www.deltamill.org/flour/sorting.html
I am sure that modern method are a bit more efficient.
As to your flour, you will find that some types of grain will take more or less water. This is true also for the same flour on different days. I usually hold back about 50 g of water from the initial mixing and then add it if I need it. Or sometimes, it needs even more than that.
You will get to know which hydration feels best for you and aim for that. I had a baking instructor tell me that the dough should feel like my earlobe. Water is the one variable that you can play with without messing things up too much.
Danni, your skills continue to amaze me! what a great loaf! I have to read your post when I have more time, but it's fantastic!
if it hadn’t gotten squished by the lid. Hubby is mentioning that it is more moist and springy than usual so I will need to check the inside temperature next time. It also might be because i cut into it when it was still warm.
But thank you!
As I think you said, no problem with your strong Canadian flours!
look forward to next one. You could also try the Tartine Style Country Champlain :) it is a bit more challenging (or should I say, challenging for me anyway.)
anyway, well done ??
Leslie
Oh beautiful...I love the swirly patterns in your scoring...like waves ! Your loaves always have so much character!
You know I love that scoring when you have a square and I think it is beautiful that the Japanese character for mouth is guchi or kuchi and a square.....but not a rigid one in calligraphy...neither in bread....
So, I always think that the scoring is like calligraphy on a bread.....and putting 'a mouth' on a bread is amazing because that is where it should go!!!! I am sure this one will taste fantastic! Kat
Hi, I have been experimenting with different folding to see how it affects the crumb on 75% hydration Champlain.
I liked my previous bigger holes but wanted to see how I could get it a little bit more evenly distributed and also see what happens, if I have a shorter bulk whether the dough has a firmer 'standing on it's own' type of consistency when I put it on the bench....It has often gone poofy and then I have a very 'sloppy' preshape with looking shape quickly....bread is good but just wanted to experiment a bit...
So I followed something that Trevor mentioned on an IG post yesterday in his comments to someone:
"I've been bulking for 3-4 hours, usually with folds every 30 minutes for the first 2 hours, then moving on to tension pulls every 30 minutes for the remainder of bulk. But nothing is ever given. I often change it up as needed. Different recipes and doughs call for different treatments. Sometimes I bulk longer, sometimes shorter. Sometimes I give it more folds, sometimes less. Just gotta give the dough what it needs given the conditions."
I think it doesn't have the bigger holes but seems to be a bit of a more balanced and evenly distributed crumb......and I think this might be the tension pulls towards the end of the bulk??????
My son shakes his head and can't believe that I am analysing bread!!!!
Kat
p.s. I desperately need to buy a new bead knife....I keep ripping the lovely bread...
After 1 hour autolyse pre-mix and Rubaud..
12:30 Start Bulk Ferment in Proofer 78F
13:00 Normal S & F and tighten up folds a la Trevor video temp catching up 71F
13:30 S & F - normal - Temp 73 F
14:00 S & F normal - 72F
15:00 dough had to wait as I walked the dog Tension fulls, 74f
15:30 tension pulls and then preshape
16:30 Final Shape
The dough did not go as proofy and maybe due to the proofing under tension is slower as it says in Trevor's book?
So I did notice that the dough did 'stand' more on it's own and pre-shape seems to be less 'sloppy'...
Below picture of dough out of the tub after bulk:
I’d be happy have my bake come out like that! tweaking the folds etc may just be all that you need to do if you want it more open.
Leslie
Hi Leslie,
Yep, I was happy with this outcome and expected actually more a honeycomb crumb but it reminded me a lot of your crumb and I also said to Carl before that I like the even distribution of air pockets in his crumb.
So I baked a Tartine Country today and wanted to follow a similar pattern of folds but lost track of timings and the dough got sooooo proofy....Using a tension pull to get it out the container is a great way to get a 'manageable' dough on the bench I find and the pre-shape was not too bad...but the final shape....boy...could not get a batard at all and ended up shaping in a boule....That will be an interesting bake tomorrow!
It will be actually interesting to 'throw the crutches' away (thank you Carl!) and bake this again with the old hydration of 304g water. I shall try tomorrow.....that would be interesting....
Kat
I love the feeling of extra strength you get with the tension pulls and last bake did mostly that. my issue is the extensibility of the dough and how it spreads. and that I think is from the high proportion of spelt and rye. Maybe I should try a straight Champlain again.
Leslie,
Let's do it ....I think it is the flour too.......Kat
will let you know. of course you can do it now, and i will play catch up ?
I have also visitors from London at the weekend so after the weekend would be great! Kat
p.s. how do you get the emojis...I can't do that on my computer...!
I don’t know how on my PC either, you should get them on your phone too.?
Leslie
Kat, I bet you are taking pictures with your phone. If you want them to orient properly make sure the camera button is either on the right side for landscape or on the bottom for portrait.
I had this problem a few months back.
Dan
spot on Dan, my son just rolls his eyes when he sees me with my phone...too much going on at the same time and the phone is full of dough and flour....sorry for the distorted view of the world...my yoga teacher keeps saying it is good to see the world sometimes upside down .....lol Kat
Love your sense of humour!
I've never tried Pilates but love Yoga! So, I am actually trying headstand but NOT in the kitchen, everyone...be assured! Kat
great stuff, but haven’t tried yoga, I’m not flexible enough.
Leslie
I go 4-5 times a week and it never gets easier. We once had another instructor take the class as a participant and she told my instructor: “What the heck was this? Boot camp Pilates?” It was pretty funny because even though she was a Pilates instructor, she couldn’t keep up with us! Natalie prides herself on making it tough for us.
I have tried yoga and it isn’t easy either but it just moves too slowly for me. Then again, I wonder why I go torture myself on an almost daily basis! ?
Now, I am intrigued about your Pilates class.amazing every day!!!...You know, you can always speed up the sun salutations and that normally does the trick with me! Yep warmed up all right - good morning sun!
will show you some basic Pilates moves.
https://greatist.com/fitness/10-minute-pilates-workout
There are tons more but at least it will give you an idea of what some are. Now picture doing those moves in 3 to 5 sets of 15 to 50+ times depending on the instructor’s mood and the level of difficulty of the class. Your muscles are screaming by the time you are done. Classes are 50 minutes long.
Last Friday was a friend’s birthday and she turned 71. Yep, the reps were 71 in a row!
I see what you mean but there are also a lot of similarities like the push up you can do as part of sun salutation. I might give it a go. Shouldn't I be here for a while then I cannot hold the phone anymore! Trevor would be so impressed!! We are baking and we are working out too!!!! ???
Ha! I can barely get out of bed without wrenching my back! I can however bake a mean bread! It kind of sucks that it took me so long to realize what I had a passion for. Oh will, better late than never they say.
It's been such a treat catching up on all these bakes. What an incredible community working together to help each other.
I wanted to chime in and offer a counter point to upping hydration for this bake.
I have been rereading some of Trevor's postings, mostly the one on how to get open crumb from stiffer dough. I think a huge part of the champlain bake is trying to do just that. His point is to not use higher hydration as a crutch to achieve open crumb and use this bake to focus on the other extensive and equally important variables. Is the ceiling higher for open crumb with higher hydration? Sure, but that's not the point in this case.
Champlain take 3. Eaten on the bank of Oregon's fabled North Umpqua. Finally was able to bake it as written with Rye instead of einkorn. Sorry I did not document it but the timeline was almost the same as my second bake.
I love that strand of gluten on the left holding down the fort.
I love that crumb!
Another beautiful loaf. Yes, I like the gluten “column” that holding up the ceiling of the cave :-) .
Question - how long did you wait before slicing the bread in your crumb shot?
I ask because it seems if I slice my bread early it gets a concave curve on the bottom of the loaf similar to your’s. Was that the case with that bread?
I try to wait a day before cutting. I want the crumb to set, but I also find the bread bread taste better after “aging”. Have you noticed that?
Dan
I think you are right about the hydration and I think there is 1 more factor (among the many) that is also important. Danni3113 makes this point too. The flours available to us. this will influence hydration and handling.
Leslie
Thanks Guys,
And Dan let's try to figure this out! I would love to know because that concave drives me crazy. I know my crust tends to pull back and shatter but I'd like the bottom to stay flat. I have been wondering if it has to do with the surface and baking temps on the "deck".
This loaf was cut about 16 hours after baking so we can't blame cutting it too soon in this case.
I agree that the bread tastes more "honest" at least 24 hours after baking. I will admit to LOAVING that sweet spot of 4 or 6 hours after the bake when it has time to set but barely,
Try woking a bake. I put two slightly flat bottom woks together as a baking chamber.
I just checked the bottom of a Champlain that is uncut and aging. I noticed it has a slightly concave bottom. Maybe it is a result of the open crumb. I'll have to look at other crumb shots to see if that thought works out.
Also, I think we both bake with high heat. I go 500 and sometimes 550F. On this bake my crust had the really nice cracking.
If you figure something out, please let me know and I'll do the same.
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I sure wished we could fish together... You'd love sight fishing our flats.
That was taken years ago, before I "matured". Hehehe
The guys in the black and red shirts were clients.
We released all fish and all flies were barbless. I've been Blessed...
Dan
Dan all these pictures are just amazing but I especially love that first one because it is just so easy to relate with.
I've have not been so lucky to fish for redfish yet but it is very near the top of the bucket list, if not at the top right now.
Sight fishing for those beuts!! what a dream come true..
You've done it again! I cannot believe the things you guys get me to do...I actually went and checked the bottom of my loaves or what is left of them....hmmmm...not sure...I don't think there is a curve. But I think the bread gets tighter after a day or not....I can't really tell as it gets eaten so quickly or given away. I use this terra cotta fairly cheap Mason Cash dome and pizza plate.
My sister keeps posting this amazing vids to me and this one I wanted to share...I see soooo many beautiful breads here and on IG and sometimes I think, 'oh I wish I could do that'...and it is easy to loose track of what I get out of my baking and the joy I am getting out of it......I hope, it is ok sharing...and you might enjoy the story. It is just 4 minutes....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnGIpqvipM4
Kat
Thank you Kat,
Sometimes short term goals overwhelm life's important long term considerations. That video reminded me to try to balance those goals.
Al
Never stop ttose goals...but we are all 'beautiful birds (aka loaves)', she says as she looks down on her loaf that lacks oven spring!!!! Kat
Bake #5 if anyone is interested....
A few reflections on this recipe - I have not had a problem with hydration - when mixing the flour and water initially it seems like it's going to be dry but when I really get my hands in there, it's been moist. I do warm my water because I'm not doing the long autolyse that Trevor does, and Maurizio talks about water temperature and it's importance. So I don't know if that has any impact on how my flour is absorbing the water. I am such a newbie at this....
So here they are - I was surprised and I like the taste very much. Mild. Not too tangy.
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![IMG_2119[6873]SD CRUMB3.JPG](/sites/default/files/styles/wide/public/IMG_2119%5B6873%5DSD%20CRUMB3.JPG.webp?itok=Bf9MvvOf "IMG_2119[6873]SD CRUMB3.JPG")
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So here they are - I was surprised and I like the taste very much. Mild. Not too tangy.
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![IMG_2119[6873]SD CRUMB3.JPG](/sites/default/files/styles/wide/public/IMG_2119%5B6873%5DSD%20CRUMB3.JPG.webp?itok=Bf9MvvOf "IMG_2119[6873]SD CRUMB3.JPG")
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Sharon,
Sorry for the delayed reaction...lovely crumb and it looks like you have a 'star' scoring on the bread! I love bread with character! Kat
Yesterday I made Trevor's Champlain sourdough as per recipe, just enough for 2 approx 550 g batards.
Levain was built overnight 7 g mature starter seed + 34 g bread flour + 34 g water. (I had used bran in the earlier part of the build).
Just after I got up I mixed the flours - 544 g bread flour + 13 g gluten + 54 g freshly milled spelt + 27 g freshly milled rye and 409 g water (I held 27 g back at this point) . Spelt and rye were milled once on setting 6 on my Mockmill 100, the bran sieved off for the levain, then it was remilled at setting 1. This was left to autolyse for just over an hour.
Added salt (13.4 g) and levain (74 g) and mixed using a mix of stretch and folds, attempted rolling :( not good, and yes even just a few slap and folds. left to rest for 10 minutes. The dough was really firm so I added the remaining 27 g water and did a few more stretch and folds. Still very firm dough but decided to run with it after my experiences with the Tartine style Country Champlain.
During the bulk ferment I did 5 lots of 10 stretch and folds then left for about 1 1/2 hours.
Here it is about 2 hours into BF
I was on a schedule so at 3:30 pm decided, yes it has increased a bit, looking a little poofy, a few bubbles on top so I divided the dough, preshaped and left for 30 minutes before final shaping.
2 hours later it had risen a bit, looked a bit poofy, so into the oven - 250 deg C for 15 minutes lid on the DO, 15 minutes lid off.
Voila! they look better than I hoped.
The dough had never felt really light during the bulk ferment and I was sure I would end up with a bit of a brick. I was mistaken.
Some of the slices are so open, that definitely no good for jam or honey as it would all end up in my lap or somewhere else. Then I went to Trevor's website to look at his crumb, I am amazed!! lol what a good way to end the last bake before my holiday!!
Leslie
and nothing better than that amazing bake to achieve that! I think both loaves look really pretty!
I have the oven going to bake my Champlain and I also wanted to do two doughs BUT I got distracted at the end of bulk (yet again!) and the dough went MAD and more tnan doubled. I always wanted to try rolls and just decided to try a boule and the rest will be 'rolls'.....Oh....dividing....never tried that before....didn't even attempt of using scale and just went for judging by eye....So....different sizes of loaves and rolls coming up...they would be interesting to decide on a price....I heard somewhere that in France they weight the SD and then give a price ..welll that would be my type of bakery!!!!! Kat
Baking a set of 2 Chaimplains started with the camera ready and best intentions and then the day ran away!
Sorry, Leslie not much documentation but one interesting thing that I learnt from one of the Matt Ormsby vids was that he uses 2nd Hydration as he calls is and puts some water in the container when starting bulk fermentation dough absorbs it during bulk.....
Since I started to use the plastic container to monitor growth that can be very sticky, I 've found this a very useful trick to make the dough not so much stick in the corners....
I also found that the container as it is tall and narrow for more dough is making it tricky to do folds....need to ponder on this...how best to measure proofing and might try the trick with dough in separate glass to monitor progress.....
The boule does not have the best oven spring but I ended up with a little family of loaves. It was a nightmare to bake with two different domes at the same time and probably lost a lot of heat in the oven doing them not in sync....
I am really curious what the crumb will look in the smaller rolls......
I named them 'Mama dough with big brother, big sister and two younger sisters tagging along'....funny that....just like my siblings! He, he, he...
Also....I've heard that some bakeries sell their SD in France by weight.....that would be my type of bakery where the bread is sold like something naturally grown like apples or potatoes...not very practical, I know..... Kat
p.s. I think burgers with SD rolls in our house tonight!
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I just added crumb shot from big 'Mama' bread and happy with that...I had loaves with more oven spring and open crumb but I am just happy that on a 'bad' day with distractions and other stuff happening I still can bake a loaf like that.....It shows that I am getting more consistent...I think....
Oh so curious about rolls.....but have to wait for tonight....
=======================================
here is crumb from the small roll....just now devoured by my son...didn't make it to the burger! I am happy with this...
Kat, you amaze me! I’m really starting to enjoy this Champlain bread. I love everyone’s fine tuning it to suit their schedules and needs and tastes. Makes me want to take some risks. Still not ready for his Country Tartine bread though.
if you keep baking but I am also a bit weary of the Tartine with the larger amount of water...I've tried it but actually get better crumb with the Champlain because of better handling I think... Kat
I decided after checking both recipes to go with Maurizio Leo’s Best Sourdough Recipe - it’s his version of the Tartine SD - high hydration- but he warns you about not putting all the water in as you keep out 50g and add what you need back in when you add the levain and then the salt - he breaks that down into 3 stages: the autolyse, the levain, and then the salt. Anyways it’s a sticky dough, pre-shaping was tough but he says to use more flour during shaping and it certainly worked out. It’s in the fridge now - we’ll see. Not sure I’d work with another high hydration soon - it really is challenging. But the dough feels light and airy.
Might post a photo tomorrow.. Believe it or not, forgot to take photos until I put it in the baneton.
Sharon
and keep fingers crossed....can't wait for the result - and whatever the outcome you will have learnt something! Kat
p.s. Awful those people with advice, aren't they.........
if you keep baking but I am also a bit weary of the Tartine with the larger amount of water...I've tried it but actually get better crumb with the Champlain because of better handling I think... Kat
Leslie, that is a beautiful bake! You should be so happy with that! Impressive! Enjoy your break from baking.
Sharon
and you have a very nice crumb too.
Re the tall containers, I haven’t been using mine lately as doing folds in them would not be easy at all. I used to do S & F first then leave alone in them to double. Techniques have changed and I use the shot glass. having said that, its funny as this time the Champlain didn’t rise in the shot glass, whereas the other doughs did. I went by the appearance in the bowl.
happy baking Kat
Leslie
try the 'Schnapsglass' next time! I keep forgetting! Kat
Continuing to try to get the most out of the Champlain bake,
I did the overnight premix with salt, sticking with the 70% hydration.
Mixed in the starter around 10am and bulk went about 6 hours. I used a series of stretch and folds, then rolled the dough into itself several times and then gently worked around it around the bowl a couple times just building tension and tightness, making sure to not tear the developed gluten.
Preshaped, always pondering over how much tension to "leave on the table" as Trevor says.
Shaping was not the best effort, too much bench flour and my stitching wouldn't stick. It looked ok before sitting there before I put it in the basket so ok we will see. Proofed in the basket without a liner so if it stuck I would have an alibi for my questionable shaping.
Proofed at 58 degrees.
I started later then usual and went checked on it at 9pm and it had filled the basket nicely but the poke test sprung back way too quickly. And then a dilemma. Do I stay up and hope it finishes in a reasonable time or do I put it in the fridge, bake it in the morning and risk going over? I decided to start preheating the oven and bake it in an hour no matter what. 15 minutes before bake I poked it again it things looked good! phew. Put it in the freezer for 10 minutes to make slashing a little easier and then here we go.
In the end I am happy with the choices I made. I'm curious if it would of made it to the morning in the fridge and be ok. Maybe next time I will make two and try it both ways.
Great looking Loaf :)
lovely ear and now for the crumb shot?
Leslie
Thanks Leslie. Unfortunately we won't get a crumb shot of this one as it was given away rather unexpectedly. But I will make up for it by trying again next week hopefully. Sorry :( ! I was sad to see it go but it was for a good cause (one hopes).
and don't trust myself with the poke test. So fridge retarding is the easy way out at the moment. I probably should try the proofing at room temperature more but each loaf under or overproofed is a bit of a heartbreak.
Lovely, lovely loaf!
Kat
Carl, that is a lovely looking loaf! Whatever you did, worked out! Trevor did say to me that after shaping - to leave it out for about an hour and then into the fridge - so you could do that next time. I just found that I dont’ like to bake it at night. And to bake it straight from the fridge.
Hi Carl,
Great looking loaf the color is beautiful.
When you put the loaf in the freezer is it still in the basket?
Al
Hi All,
Here's my latest bake. If you recall, my last bake had all white flour in the autolyse, and all my whole grains were in the preferment. With that I reported that timing had gotten really screwed up and I wasn't able to do any folds, or a proper final proof, which resulted in bran streaking throughout the crumb.
This time, I made plenty of time, but...
So I started out to do a double-batch because I wanted to share a loaf with a friend and keep one at home. I had 800g flour, 12% of which was whole grains in a ratio of 1:2 rye to whole wheat. Half of the whole grains were in the dough and half in the preferment. Both the dough and the preferment were at 70% hydration. I had asked my wife to take the dough out of the fridge when she went to bed, but she misplaced her reminder note; so I took it out when I got home from work at 6:00am.
The dough was a bit stiff due to the cold, but having the dough and the starter at the same hydration made mixing relatively easy. After a 5-min mix/15-min rest/5-min mix combo it came together nicely into a smooth cooperative ball. After the third set of folds I divided it into two bowls and continued folds every hour until six sets of folds were done.
After the sixth fold I pre-shaped one batch into a nice round ball and let it bench rest for an hour. 30 min later I pre-shaped the second one - I separated them so that the second would be proofing while the first was baking. The first one proofed nicely and went into the oven as my wife reminded me that we needed the oven to make dinner. The loaf in the pictures is #1. The crumb shot is from my friend, whom I asked for a picture.
Loaf #2 languished in the banneton for an hour too long (Can a guy catch a break??) And the structure suffered accordingly. The loaf was a little saggy and some of the central bubbles consolidated into the center of the loaf, making for a few cavernous holes right down the middle. In the crumb surrounding the middle the holes were pretty decently distributed and nicely sized. And it tastes great. Didn't take any pictures of that one - didn't see the point.
Because my mixing and folds went so well this time, I didn't see any of the bran streaks in these loaves. And other than #2 overproofing everything went well - very satisfied with this one!
baking around family life! Yep that is an interesting one!
I would be very happy with this bake and nothing more satisfying than to share with friends...especially the ones who understand our 'obsession' and provide a crumb shot. I had friends visit recently and they were very upset with the suggestion to cut the loaf in half before they left but very happily provided a crumb shot. I now have even friends who provide crumb shots of loaves that they buy with their bakeries across the UK to compare....That was their idea!!!!! Kat
Bet it tastes great too! Maybe next time you have a conflict with time - and it happens to me all the time - shove it back in the fridge. What’s the worst that can happen? At least it won’t over proof hopefully! Learned that the hard way. I’m still working on timing!
I learnt a lot from baking this loaf with fellow bakers here....and now it is my go to loaf to feed the family!
I will keep looking for another loaf that I keep baking until getting it right.....so I keep looking out for all those lovely loaves.....here...... Kat
Very good looking loaf!!
this is the one I can bake kind of consistently.....and whenever one goes wrong I need to bake this one to boost my confidence again.......Kat
Makes me want to make another one already! I’ll have to try your formula next. So tempting! Congratulations!
and I have a 50/50 Wholewheat on the go similar to Maurizio's recipe, a bit of Rubaud and a recipe from Carl....
the 75% hydration Champlain seems to be the 'sweet spot' with my flour here in UK... Kat
Amazing amazing!
Probably should not be in this thread...bread filled with sunshine...today's 50/50 wholewheat...
Kat we should start another thread.... Seriously, this one is way too long and we are now veering into other areas!
Well ...he knows me well.... and delivered this in the oven today! Kat
Your breads are beautiful. But it didn’t come easy.
You worked hard, were consistent and persevered. You deserve the accolades!
The bloom and ears are outstanding...
Dan
and I learnt so much baking together and helped me not loosing heart! Kat
It's Bank Holiday Monday here in the UK, so I've taken the opportunity to bake a Champlain boule. First S&F coming up. Photos when it's done. Fingers crossed.
I have been testing a new flour called Morbread. This flour has far surpassed any flour that I have tried. Next I plan to compare Central Milling flours.
I baked the Champlain and didn’t stress over the details.
Morbread gave the bread a huge rise with nice open crumb.
Dan
The flour you use seems to make such a difference. lovely
Leslie
That loaf hit the lid of whatever you baked it in. Look at that flat top! Can’t get any better than that!
I baked in a large oval Graniteware roaster. I wonder how high it would have risen with a taller cover?
It is the flour, not my technique. I was way less careful with this Champlain than all my other bakes. In the next few days I hope to compare the Morbread with Central Millings Artisan Baker’s Craft Plus flour and T70. Before Morbread I thought King Arthur was the best. KA is a good flour, but it can’t begin to compete with Morbread. At least in every test I’ve run so far. The. Shipping is high, but I have no plans to quit ordering it. It cost me $73 for a 50# bag, delivered. It is affordable in bulk.
I just paid $45 for 15# (delivered) from Central Milling for testing. How great it is for those who have top flour available in their local stores!
Dan
I think it's interesting that you find the flour has a significant effect. I've found this to be the case in my tests when comparing freshly milled/sifted to KA, but I haven't compare to any other commercial flours other than KA. In Trevor's book, he mentioned that many home bakers go out in search of the perfect flour, but that the flour choice doesn't really matter-- or something to that effect. I think he uses KA for most of his breads, and he gets a gorgeous open crumb. Perhaps it's mostly about getting the right consistency (using hydration, autolyse, etc) for a given flour than the flour itself? Or it could be the flour. I don't know.
I know for sure that for the bread I’ve been testing FLOUR MAKES A DIFFERENCE. I’ve done so much testing (probably 20 or more loaves) on this one particular bread that I’m positive about that. Trevor tried Central Milling flour and wrote how much he liked it. I’m not trying to insinuate that a “special” flour will make a mediocre baker great. I am an obsessive type, so small details matter to me. I see excellent bakers that bake phenomenal breads using very common, universally available flours. Alan, aka Alfonso is one that comes to mind.
Actually, I baked 2 different breads with Morbread. My test bakes where a sourdough that fermented 18 - 20 hours at 77F. Any flour is subject to degredation on that bake, but Morbread absolutely made the difference between success and failure. The Champlain pictured above hit the top of the roaster. I can’t ever remembering that happen for me before.
What were your finding for the freshly milled/sifted vs, KA? I am interested in learning.
Dan
Amazing looking and it hit the roof Dan! I have not made a Champlain for a while and now I think I must go and bake another one soon....great baking! Kat
I’m getting better.
I think that proofing the dough for 2 hours @ room temp before retarding in the refrigerator is responsible for the open crumb. I’ll have to try this again to confirm.
Dan
That is one good looking loaf! The crumb is wonderful.
I'm also playing around with how long I let my shaped loaves proof at room temp before baking. Do you find that your loaves don't really do much in the fridge overnight?
I haven't tried the Champlain sourdough yet, I think I'll give it a go for my next bake :)
Well done Dan!
Ru
Ru, my loaves don’t rise much, if at all, in the refrigerator. I think the temperature of the refrigerator is the key. Mine is around 38F, but if it was 40 or higher I think the dough would rise during refrigeration.
As far as room temp proof, I tend to err on under proofing since it is safer. I use the finger poke test.
I have struggled to get consistent large holed open crumb.
Dan
maybe a short bench proof before retard is the elusive something to give you this type of crumb. it looks so lovely and delicate!
Leslie
Leslie, aren’t you going straight into the frig after shaping?
i pushed the hydration to 73%, but I struggle with handling and shaping. Oh, I did do an overnight premix, but I did use the Morbread flour, which handles fermentation better than anything else I know of.
I wished I could bake with you and Kat. That way I could learn your secrets :-)
Dan
with some bench time first. but first I will check my fridge is cold enough!
oh yeah! a bake together would be awesome indeed! I would love that as we would all learn so much!
Leslie
be very happy with that result!!! I am away again and not baking and just looking at this lovely bread makes me want to go straight home to bake again!!!!! I have the opposite situation that I have an unpredictable and too warm fridge in UK and really have to watch not to overproof in the fridge......I am waiting to hear from a friend to potentially get a used 'wine cooler' and then I can be much more precise about the temperatures during retarding. I had a number of loaves go too in the fridge especially as we have hot and warm weather in UK now.... Love to catch up when I am back home....and what a lovely, beautiful loaf Dan! Kat
Kat, before getting a wine cooler, please check to see how low the temperatures go. I don’t think a wine cooler gets cold enough. I’m thinking around 38-39F in order to be cold enough to retard doughs without having them ferment too much.
Dan
different options at the moment. I also might go the Maurizio route with rebuilding a freezer but happened then to speak to my friend who spoke about the wine cooler and so I am looking into it...I did have quite good results in my fridge at around 5C which is 41F but the problem is that it fluctuates too much up and down......it is a great looking fridge BUT totally useless! :D
Time to re-visit baking a Champlain without hydration crutches and used 'just' the 304g water as in Trevor's formula.
Very, very happy with what I have learnt and whilst not super open crumb one might say...I am very happy and grateful for Trevor's book that helped me.getting better with my baking... Kat
Your bread is a looker. You could definitely sell bread like that. As far as the crumb, don’t you think this is what the public would choose? The crumb is open and the bread is lighting airy.
Dan
Thank you Dan and it is interesting what people say when they receive a loaf....Firstly there seems to be the 'dark' camp v. 'light camp' and it makes me smile when I get the 'that looks a bit burned' comment about the 'darker' ear....
Two teenagers in the house today summed it up to 'lighter bread' for breakfast with jam and 'darker' for salami, salmon and cheesy toppings....! I like both really......
Then, the open crumb....oh it makes me laugh....As a baker I really want it to be part of my 'repertoire' but in the end I want to bake what people also like to eat and that may differ and what people like or not.....I have been so nosy going into SD bakeries locally and looking at what is on offer as they need to 'survive' selling their bread running this with real financial pressure. I plan a trip to London this weekend and might include a bakery or two teenagers allowing as well as get that flour that Abe recommended in Soho........ :D
So, what type of breads and crumb are the bakeries putting out?
this is the type of crumb the public (me included) would choose. And if Kat is selling bread, I'm right behind you in that line Dan!
Ru
and I have no immediate plans but who knows what lies in the future! Kat
Hi Everyone,
I have missed this thread as I haven't been baking so much lately and just returned to my roots, ha ha! Lovely baking everyone. Everyone's loaves look so delicious. Have to think about the Champlain Bread again.
Dan, I find with higher hydration that if I do about 3 sets of S & F's every 15 minutes, then another two or three about 30 minutes apart, I can handle the higher hydration. But I do several turns each time with the first 3 sets. The pre-shaping is my nemesis, but somehow I manage to get the dough shaped and in the banneton. Your bread looks fantastic - so whatever you just did, worked. Maurizio also likes Central Milling Flour.
Great baking!
and I missed this thread too...we need to think seriously about another community bake...maybe if we all think about a loaf that we would like to try? Any ideas? Kat
I’ve been ready for a new community bake for months. Obviously we’ll need to start a new thread, this one is a beast :)
Dan
Dan, I couldn’t agree more - this thread is too much to handle! Let’s put our heads together. I already posted an idea to Kat and this thread. Let me know what you think!
Hi Kat,
I’m in the process of making the 20% Kamut bread from Breadtopia’s site. I’ve made it a couple of times with great results. The first time I made it I used the whole grain Kamut flour but I have been able to find the white Kamut which I prefer. There are 3 recipes - 100%, 40% or 20% Kamut. Take a look and let me know.
There are other recipes out there we could try. Maurizio has a couple - so let’s brainstorm. Another community bake would be fantastic. A new post and tons of information to be had! I’ll post photos of mine when it’s ready.
Sharon
I had given up on this formula as I just could not get good volume and was very disappointed. However, recent success doing 150-200 slap and folds at the start of the fermentation gave me confidence to have another try.
I remade a previous bake. This time I did 200 slap and folds followed by 4 sets of coil folds in the first 2 hours and 2 folds in the next 2 hours. It is winter so my dough is not quite as quick as during the summer, root temperature was probably about 21 - 22 deg C. It was preshaped, rested 30 minutes, shaped and retarded overnight. Baked at the same time as Maurizio's 50:50 wholewheat bread.
I found the dough really easy to handle, not overly sticky. I had dropped hydration to 74% last time due to my struggles to get a good loaf so stuck to that for this bake.
Crumb shot later when I slice it for freezing.
Next time I will up the hydration and see how it goes. I just cannot believe what a difference doing so many slap and folds makes. For me it is a real light bulb moment.
Leslie
This is a higher hydration than the Champlain formulae and much higher ratios of spelt and rye so I am thrilled to have finally got such a great loaf for this formula.
Crumb shot.
Next time I will definitely up the hydration as despite the openness this still feels a bit heavy. But I am really really happy
Leslie
Hello friends,
I finally tried my hand at Trevor's Champlain, too.
As always, your feedback is much appreciated.
Happy baking and oven-warm wishes from Germany,
-Nils
Here's what I CHANGED as compared to Trevor's original recipe:
NUMBERS:
COMMENTS:
What are your guys' and gals' thoughts?
Last but not least, here are some pictures:
Hi Nils, nice writeup! Your photography is super nice.
If more open crumb is something you like, less fermentation as opposed to more will help. The small bubbles in your crumb are an indication of over proof. Under proofed crumb generally has some very large holes, but mostly tight bubbles.
You wrote,
How long did you BF at room temp?
Your fridge temp is quite a bite warmer than those in the states. At 37-38F dough doesn’t rise much and most of the time not at all. At ~43-46 you can expect rising do to slightly active fermentation.
If you adjust your fermentation duration, your crumb should be more open.
Thanks for posting...
Danny
Hi Dan,
thank you so much for your nice comments.
As for your question: Bulk fermentation was 6:00 hrs (or 6:35 if you consider mixing the starting point of BF). Room temp. was ~26°C / 79°F.
If you had to guess, when would you say overproof occurred - during the bulk stage or later in the fridge?
As for fridge temperatures I didn't think mine would be much of a problem (@ ~6.5-8.0°C / 43.7-46.4°F) after learning in Vanessa Kimbell's book ("The Sourdough School") that her fridge runs at 8-9°C /46-48°F...And she cold retards for up to 16-24hrs. What am I not seeing?
Can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Boy, it is HOT here in Germany, I feel like I'm about to overproof myself...
Thanks again,
-Nils
It would be difficult to know for sure at which stage the dough overfermented. But if I was to venture a guess I’d say during retardation. Because you said that the BF was stopped once the dough rose by 30%. You can definitely retard at temps warmer than 38F, just know that the dough will continue to grow. At 37-39F no growth, but 41F and above the dough will rise a varying degrees depending upon the temp. I have a designated retarder and have retarded at temps as high as 65F, but the dough rose (continued active fermentation).
Next time you might experiment with a 30% increase at BF then divide, shape, proof at room temp and then bake. The results may be informative.
Nils, if pizza interest you, we are featuring a Community Bake right now. You are most welcomed to join if you wish. Check it out.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60568/community-bake-pizza
Danny
Hi Danny,
I think your assessment was spot-on: I did overproof the loaf. Just gave the Champlain another try with an even shorter bulk which definitely was an improvement, both in terms of handling / shaping and crumb structure. Also, I lowered the temperature of my fridge...just a nudge...and gave the loaf a 13 hour final proof (exactly as last time).
Really like how it came out. What do you think? Where do you see room for improvement?
PS: It tasted delicious. My wife is starting to blame me for putting on weight, so I'm clearly on the right track. Ha.
-Nils
This loaf looks great too me. But if you wanted to tweak your results a bite, you could try reducing either the BF and/or the retardation a little more. BUT, your present bake looks very good to me.
Your shaping looks super nice to me. The shape of the slice pizza s high in relationship to its width.
Danny, I tried the recipe again with shorter bulk and it looks like it's getting there. Oven spring was better than ever and the crumb looks improved, too. Will keep experimenting.
Thanks again.
-Nils
Much better bloom and crumb.
It would be a learning exercise to keep reducing the fermentation until you go too far. Once you over do it, you’ll be able to go back to the last bake and know that you have it dialed in.
It is commonly accepted that the best way to tweak a bread is to change only one variable at a time.
Dan
Matheus, most bakers take the dough right out of the refrigerator and bake it cold with great results.
Danny
Even though I'm late to the party I thought I'd join this excellent thread and post my results. I've been baking instant yeast artisan breads for years but have only made a handful of sourdough loaves, so I'm very happy with how this turned out.
From my notes, I followed Trevor's method fairly closely. Did the overnight premix. Bulk fermentation was done after 5 hrs at around 75F. I'd estimate the dough had increased in volume by around 30-40%. No pre-shape, just shaped using Kristen's method as I was making a batard and not a boule. 30 min bulk proof at 75F, then into the fridge for 16 hours at around 41F. The dough didn't rise too much in the fridge, just filled out a little and became slightly domed. Baked in DO straight from fridge.
I'd like to try retarding the last part of the bulk fermentation for around 4 hours to see if it helps in shaping without degassing. My crumb always has a dense spot where it has been degassed at some point during the shaping, and try as I may, I cannot correct it yet!
Cheers,
Harry
I’d say you knocked it out of the park. It is beautiful.
I really like Kristen’s shaping method!
Danny
Cheers Danny, really looking forward to next community bake.
Her shaping is good, but always makes me nervous for some reason. I think because of its context in the broader method of making a super open crumb bread. You have to be so delicate, yet not too delicate that you don't tension the dough correctly. It's a fine balance for sure!
After reading through some of the threads, I have to say I appreciate your rigorous and experimental approach to baking - something I would like to employ more of myself. Looking forward to picking your brains on a few things!
Harry
I have learned a lot from reading about other bakers having a go at the same recipe and participating in these collaborations. So by way of waiting for the next one I thought it would go back to the beginning.
I followed the recipe and techniques but with the changes that seemed to work for well for others. Total Flour was 400 gr 10% of the flour was fermented and the total hydration was 75% I milled the 5% rye and the 10% spelt the rest was Wheat Montana all purpose. The autolyse was two hours then mixed by hand with Trevor's method. The bulk was six hours. I had intended to pre-shape and bench rest it for longer but it was pretty jiggly by then so I did a short one and put it in the fridge straight away. I was panicked that I had let another dough get away from me and now wished that I had done a room temp proof before chilling it down or letting it proof longer in the fridge.
It has a nice flavor and soft texture. Using bread flour may help to get a more open crumb but it is more useful this way.
I really like your crumb. But then again, I am not a fan of big holes. It looks like something that would be very enjoyable to eat.
Kudos on the crust blisters!
I started to consistently get blisters when I switched to baking on a stone with a granite ware roasting pan as a cover for the first twenty minutes. Why that is, I am not sure. Some say blisters are a defect but I like them. I am with you on the practicality of the swiss chess crumb, as a practical every day bread it is not very versatile. It is nice to be able to achieve the open crumb but chasing holes lead to a lot of frustration and desperation. Now I just focus on fermentation and let the holes fall where they may.
I tried it again with a slightly different flour combination and got nice results. I made two loaves with 800 grams total flour 5% rye coarse grind, 5% whole wheat, and 5% spelt. I used half bread flour and half AP for the rest.The hydration was around 78% and I used cold water for the autolyse, that was 4 hours, then added 150 grams of starter, that was just past the peak after 6 hours, hand mixed rested for twenty minutes, added the salt and a little bit of water, did 30 slap and folds (sorry Trevor) and then 3 coil folds during the bulk fermentation that was 5 hours, on the counter next to the wood stove. Baked the next morning on a stone with a graniteware roasting pan covered for 20 minutes at 475 and uncovered at 450 for 20 minutes more.
To paraphrase Forrest Gump "Cutting open a loaf of bread is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are doing to get." I was hopeful for a more open crumb and was pleased with the results.
It is hard to pinpoint why I get a more open crumb sometimes even when that was the goal. Most of the time I don't but every once in a while it happens. The longer autolyse seems to be a factor and I thought a well fed starter was important although this time I made the levain from a single build of a refrigerated starter. A longer bench rest and a 30 minute room temperature proof before retarding has been giving me better results lately. It's still a mystery but thanks to all the wisdom from other TFL bakers these Community Bakes have upped my game.
Beautiful loaf, MT! Everything about the bake looks great.
I think the following can make a difference when baking for extreme open crumb. The balance between enough gluten development to contain all of the precious gas, BUT at the same time maintaining the extreme extensibility that will allow the individual cell to expand without too much resistance. It is possible that your combination of AP and BF was beneficial towards your goal.
It is common practice among some bakers (Trevor, Kristen, etc.) that are known for extreme open crumb to do extended autolysing. I think this contributes to the extensibility of the dough.
Your breads are exceptional.
Danny