I made it to bake a long with my big sis in Dumont NJ. She failed. Still new. So is her sourdough culture. The bread is so soft, and delicious. I took the time to convert the recipe from volume to a mass weight formula. I also took into account the water in all the other liquid ingredients. She still went with the very inaccurate recipe.
Will, was there some keyholing? I ask because it's an occasional problem of mine and wondered what your thoughts were. Especially since you have 4 loaves to compare.
I did notice some collapsing. I attributed it to a mistake. The oven rack were not set up exactly right. During the first half of the bake the loves stated to hit the rack above. Lucky I noticed before they were to stuck. I did have to do some giggling to free them. As far as collapse they all had it to some degree. Still, a very soft enriched bread. I will try the formula out for burger rolls some time.
Keyholing occurs when the bread pulls in on the sides so it looks like an old-fashioned keyhole--narrow at the bottom and round at the top. There are different theories about what causes it.
Excessive expansion. I would also go out on a limb and say it is similar to a panettone collapsing. In hindsight, next time I would let them set in the pan for an hour before de- panning. Might highly enriched breads be more susceptible? These are interesting questions.
Hey Wil it looks like the heat is not getting to you in AZ. Keyoling Is caused by under baking. The gray dough on the edges are nearly raw. The sides cave in as it cools. I think in with this bake they needed to be on a lower rack with less crowding and not on a sheet pan. If the sides walls are not firm enough then they need more time or finished baking without the pans.
The woman who's recipe it was call for a 30 minute bake for the same four loaves. These took a full hour to reach this point. Additionally, I took an internal temperature of one. It was North of 205° F in the center. Funny the author called for 190°F. All that being said, you are correct the sides were weak. They almost felt hollow. I will definitely take your overcrowding suggestion into Strong consideration.
I bake maybe every 6 month a "no waste" recipe in a loaf pan. Hence my experience is very limited. I always de-pan my bread immediately and continue baking it for 3-5min. My no waste recipe is a lean dough, so not really comparable.
Would be interesting to know what causes the grey dough on the edges. The temperature in the middle of the loaf was high enough, the crumb looks ok, ... Maybe it's really only the spacing that prevent he walls of the loaf pan to get warm (fast enough).
Help me out by pointing out this Gray dough? I agree the sides are caving in and the finished product sided a a bit lighter. I don't see grey off color. Note the in the oven photo was The half way mark of the bake. Still rather raw all over. I think what we are seeing in that photo a shadow. Thanks.
BTW, "keyholing" wouldn't bother me much (up to some extent) if the crumb looks like yours. I don't think this is uncommon with enriched sandwich bread. At least I'm almost sure I've seen "keyholing" (to some extent) in sandwich loafs baked by professional bakeries.
As a matter of "pride" (not sure if that's the best word) I am going to try and remedy the malfunction.
The last two slices I just ate were gummy , slightly under cooked. Wet was a good description. So, the need to make improvements is no longer just cosmetic.
I will be implementing all but the non malted flour. It seems the organic AP flour I have in stock is indeed malted.
Question, when you say "effective hydration" are you referring to the water in the other liquid ingredients? I did try to take that into account. Resulting, by my possibly flawed methodology in a effective hydration,( I am learning so much new terminology) of 74% hydration. Thanks for taking the time to help.
The flour I used was the Costco 2/10lb bags, AP organic. I want to say unmalted. However I do not have the nutritional label. Good to know about possible side effects of malt.
Gary Bishop posted that from Word Loaf. It seems to agree with the excerpt Lance posted that the problem is too strong a flour, or too much gluten development.
You know how Japanese milk bread is often rolled up in 2-4 rolls and put in the Pullman sideways? I once had that sort of loaf keyhole. That's the last kind of shaping you'd think would do that.
I was actually thinking that I might try that loaf shape before you posted this. I know the scientific method calls for changing one variable at at time. That being said, who has that kind of time? Plus us Americans need instant gratification.
Changes to my next scaled down one loaf batch
Spacing in the oven. Accomplished by way of small batch.
High temp pre heat and initial bake. Normally, my modus operandi is to preheat all the way up. I am not sure why I started this bake at 375°F.
Lower the hydration by two percentage points.
I will be starting to refresh and build up Slo-mo, at some point today.
My hypothesis is that the higher temperature bake, coupled with a shorter bake time will solve the perplexing keyholing. I have to say the sandwich loaves were possibly the softest I had ever achieved. Thanks again for bringing this anomaly to my attention.
I have to dial in the bake temperature. Slightly to brown for a sandwich loaf. Lowering the hydration was the major difference. It turns out my math was wrong on the first big batch. I also baked at a higher temperature.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to help diagnose, and solve the, "Moe's Anomaly" issue. I took the liberty to rename it exclusively for the the fresh bread club. Smile...
Keep the scorching hot parts ways from your hand!
Will F.
P.S.
I do see the very slight keyholing. I attribute the to another issue causes by over filling the pan. 🍄 Mushrooming. Very slight, none issue.
Looks good now, Will. I quite agree that in the amateur baking world, multiple changes at once has to be the way to go. Otherwise you could be doing eg 4 trials for a bake you're only going to do twice anyway!
Regarding crust colour, you could kick the oven off at the higher temp and dial it down after 20 mins.
Very curious about phase two ;)
Check back now. Smile...
Foundation.
More information the formula is 100% AP flour.
I almost never make loaf pan breads.....I really need to do more. Yours looks great.
Best,
Ian
I made it to bake a long with my big sis in Dumont NJ. She failed. Still new. So is her sourdough culture. The bread is so soft, and delicious. I took the time to convert the recipe from volume to a mass weight formula. I also took into account the water in all the other liquid ingredients. She still went with the very inaccurate recipe.
Will, was there some keyholing? I ask because it's an occasional problem of mine and wondered what your thoughts were. Especially since you have 4 loaves to compare.
I did notice some collapsing. I attributed it to a mistake. The oven rack were not set up exactly right. During the first half of the bake the loves stated to hit the rack above. Lucky I noticed before they were to stuck. I did have to do some giggling to free them. As far as collapse they all had it to some degree. Still, a very soft enriched bread. I will try the formula out for burger rolls some time.
Keyholing occurs when the bread pulls in on the sides so it looks like an old-fashioned keyhole--narrow at the bottom and round at the top. There are different theories about what causes it.
Excessive expansion. I would also go out on a limb and say it is similar to a panettone collapsing. In hindsight, next time I would let them set in the pan for an hour before de- panning. Might highly enriched breads be more susceptible? These are interesting questions.
Drop your hydration a little and see if it goes away. Enjoy!
Hey Wil it looks like the heat is not getting to you in AZ. Keyoling Is caused by under baking. The gray dough on the edges are nearly raw. The sides cave in as it cools. I think in with this bake they needed to be on a lower rack with less crowding and not on a sheet pan. If the sides walls are not firm enough then they need more time or finished baking without the pans.
The woman who's recipe it was call for a 30 minute bake for the same four loaves. These took a full hour to reach this point. Additionally, I took an internal temperature of one. It was North of 205° F in the center. Funny the author called for 190°F. All that being said, you are correct the sides were weak. They almost felt hollow. I will definitely take your overcrowding suggestion into Strong consideration.
I would also say that the higher the hydration, the more prone the loaves will be to keyholing (new word for me!).
Therefore, a reduction in hydration of a few percent is likely to help.
Lance
Learned something (keyholing :D).
I like the crumb a lot.
I bake maybe every 6 month a "no waste" recipe in a loaf pan. Hence my experience is very limited. I always de-pan my bread immediately and continue baking it for 3-5min. My no waste recipe is a lean dough, so not really comparable.
Would be interesting to know what causes the grey dough on the edges. The temperature in the middle of the loaf was high enough, the crumb looks ok, ... Maybe it's really only the spacing that prevent he walls of the loaf pan to get warm (fast enough).
Help me out by pointing out this Gray dough? I agree the sides are caving in and the finished product sided a a bit lighter. I don't see grey off color. Note the in the oven photo was The half way mark of the bake. Still rather raw all over. I think what we are seeing in that photo a shadow. Thanks.
Will F.
"Grey" depends on monitor, light, etc. It's probably wrong. It's more like "wet". I hope the arrows help.
They did help.
BTW, "keyholing" wouldn't bother me much (up to some extent) if the crumb looks like yours. I don't think this is uncommon with enriched sandwich bread. At least I'm almost sure I've seen "keyholing" (to some extent) in sandwich loafs baked by professional bakeries.
An interesting read:
I suggest:
Lance
I will be implementing all but the non malted flour. It seems the organic AP flour I have in stock is indeed malted.
Question, when you say "effective hydration" are you referring to the water in the other liquid ingredients? I did try to take that into account. Resulting, by my possibly flawed methodology in a effective hydration,( I am learning so much new terminology) of 74% hydration. Thanks for taking the time to help.
Will F.
Why unmalted?
As mentioned in the article extract I included: high enzyme levels, especially alpha amylase (contained in malt) can cause this problem.
The flour I used was the Costco 2/10lb bags, AP organic. I want to say unmalted. However I do not have the nutritional label. Good to know about possible side effects of malt.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/74644/why-sides-loaves-suck-after-baking
Gary Bishop posted that from Word Loaf. It seems to agree with the excerpt Lance posted that the problem is too strong a flour, or too much gluten development.
You know how Japanese milk bread is often rolled up in 2-4 rolls and put in the Pullman sideways? I once had that sort of loaf keyhole. That's the last kind of shaping you'd think would do that.
I was actually thinking that I might try that loaf shape before you posted this. I know the scientific method calls for changing one variable at at time. That being said, who has that kind of time? Plus us Americans need instant gratification.
Changes to my next scaled down one loaf batch
Lower the hydration by two percentage points.
I will be starting to refresh and build up Slo-mo, at some point today.
My hypothesis is that the higher temperature bake, coupled with a shorter bake time will solve the perplexing keyholing. I have to say the sandwich loaves were possibly the softest I had ever achieved. Thanks again for bringing this anomaly to my attention.
Kind regards,
Will F.
AKA
The Brooklyn Maltese
The Roadside Pie King 👑 👑 👑 👑
✅👍👌The results.
I have to dial in the bake temperature. Slightly to brown for a sandwich loaf. Lowering the hydration was the major difference. It turns out my math was wrong on the first big batch. I also baked at a higher temperature.
Looking good.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to help diagnose, and solve the, "Moe's Anomaly" issue. I took the liberty to rename it exclusively for the the fresh bread club. Smile...
Keep the scorching hot parts ways from your hand!
Will F.
P.S.
I do see the very slight keyholing. I attribute the to another issue causes by over filling the pan. 🍄 Mushrooming. Very slight, none issue.
Looks good now, Will. I quite agree that in the amateur baking world, multiple changes at once has to be the way to go. Otherwise you could be doing eg 4 trials for a bake you're only going to do twice anyway!
Regarding crust colour, you could kick the oven off at the higher temp and dial it down after 20 mins.
Lance