So I'm still very new to the sourdough baking game (and bread making/baking in general) but have been making nice progress so far. All five of my loaves have ranged from "edible" to "I'm proud of that!" (see my other question / progress thread here: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/75060/hello-new-baker-looking-beginner-french-t65-based-recipe )
I recently decided that on my next loaf I'd like to try using a batard shape as opposed to a boule, so I watched this video to try to better understand the shaping technique: https://youtu.be/GkwQR5CnM6Y?si=v_AdebjaWsMNL3pq .
Watching the video, it struck me that his dough is WAY looser than mine and this has me wondering if I should adjust things. For four of my five bakes so far I've followed a recipe that uses King Arthur organic bread flour. That dough is MUCH firmer and less liquid/jiggly than what he works with in the video. The last loaf I made used French T65 flour, and started off much closer to what he has, and at the time I assumed there was a problem after I first made the dough. I ended up adding flour to make it firmer (see my other thread for that saga).
I'm wondering if that was a mistake?
The main reason I'm considering making changes is that I realized that my dough somehow ends up firm / dry enough that the seams on the bottom from stretching the dough never really meld/integrate back into the main body of the boule - mine is not actually dry, but it's dry/firm enough that the stretched parts never really integrate back into a cohesive whole with the rest of the dough. On the other hand, the finished loaves have gotten better and better so part of me thinks I should stick with what's working...
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My second question is in regards to proofing... I tried once to proof my dough in a banneton in the fridge after my stretch and folds with a damp cloth cover over the banneton. I felt like the surface of the dough was a bit leathery when that was done, so I've since switched to just keeping it in a proofing tub with the lid on, which has worked fine.
It seems like many videos I've watched show people putting their dough in the fridge inside their banneton (with liner and cover). Is there an advantage to doing this? If so, what is it?
Thanks for any help or advice!
I think it would be interesting for you to start increasing the hydration, but go back to the standard flour you started with before the T-65. If you are happy with your loaves, there is no real need. There are a zillion ways to shape, and the ways in that video are but a few, though they are good. Note that he lets his preforms relax for half an hour or more, and that will make them looser. Most shaping advice I see uses a shorter rest, 10 or 15 minutes. I use a plastic pastry scraper instead of that metal dough knife, but that's not an important difference.
With a stiff dough, you could skip the preform step. Making the preform tightens up the dough and it may be hard to fold it up as shown.
One thing I have done sometimes is to make a loose round preform, give it a rest, and then coax it into an oval shape without doing any more folds. You still want to tighten the surface some, and I slide my pastry scraper at the bottom from the side towards the middle to do that. You support the other side with a hand. This probably works best with tighter doughs. You can see one of these loaves in my comment on another thread:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/539646#comment-539646
Sorry, could you clarify please what you mean when you say "preform"? I'm not sure what that is.
Thank you!
Preform is when you take the bulk-fermented dough (possibly dividing it) and shape it into some preliminary form, usually a ball. This was shown in the shaping video you linked to. Normally you then let the pre-formed (or pre-shaped) dough rest before shaping the final loaf.
Ugh - I knew that but blanked entirely! Sorry to have bothered you with such a simple question!
Thank you.
You can refrigerate in bulk or as a shaped loaf. If your dough were wetter it would probably be less prone to develop that drier surface, and seal better at the bottom where folds overlap. Even in a bulk ferment tub you can get a little of that effect but it's not harmful - you can make sure that side ends up on the bottom when you decant the dough for shaping.
I don't have an opinion about whether it's better to refrigerate in bulk or as shaped. Some people think they get better results with the shaped loaf. For me, it's more about schedule and convenience than anything else.
I usually don't use a banneton. I lay a sheet of parchment paper on a plastic cutting board, put the shaped loaf on that, cover the loaf with plastic wrap, and proof it that way. I can put the entire thing into the fridge if I want. Without a banneton, the loaf has to be able to hold its shape during proofing, and with a slack dough it can spread out sideways too much. OTOH, the same dough in a banneton may slump or spread anyway when it is turned out for baking. You'll just have to try and see what works well for you.
I happen to like the crust color and feel I get using the free-standing method so it's my go-to method.
If you want to freeze unbaked loaves, you definitely want to refrigerate the shaped loaves first. You can score them cold, bag or wrap them in plastic wrap, and put them into the freezer right away (or freeze first, then bag).
To answer the question - no - it's not necessary. Enjoy!
So I baked my second loaf using the T65 this morning, and things went.... Not according to plan!
The main issue seems to be too much "oven spring". I decided to try doing a batard for the first time and the slash opened up so explosively that the whole loaf is sort of unrecognizable in terms of the intended shape. Since this is now two loaves in a row with massive oven spring, I need to figure out where in the process I can make some changes to get things a bit more controllable. I supspect (but take it all with a grain of salt - don't forget I'm very new to this game) that it may have to do with one or more of the following factors:
DETAILS
I made the dough and let it autolyse for 50 min, followed by four sets of stretch and fold at 30 minute intervals, placing the sough in my proofing container back into the proofing box (set at 77) in between each set.
After the last stretch and fold, I again placed the dough in the proofing box and checked periodically until it had risen about 75% (not quite double) the original height. This entire process took about 4-5 hours.
At that point I put it in the fridge overnight for about 11 hours (still in the proofing container with the lid on).
This morning I started the oven pre-heat and took the dough out of the fridge around 5am. It sat on the counter in the tub for about 15 min while I made coffee and got organized. The dough had still expanded quite A LOT overnight. probably another 40% beyond where it was when it went in the fridge (total rise to about three times the original volume).
I pre-shaped the dough (including tightening the sides to stretch the top) and placed it in the floured batartd with liner for about 45 min while the oven heated up. 5 min or so before baking, I turned it out onto the parchment paper on the board I use to get it in the oven and did final shaping (with another minor tuck here and there on the sides).
I baked it as follows:
Obviously this is not what I was shooting for. The shape is off - it's not as elongated as I expected. I think I expected it to expand outward more into a classic batard shape, but instead it mostly went UP and it looks more like a wonky boule... There is no defined ear, probably because the whole slash opened up MASSIVELY. On top of that, the crumb is denser than any of the loaves I've made so far - this was a big surprise as I thought this one would be quite airy.
I'm not sure what changes to make.
I still feel like my dough is far firmer throughout the entire process than what I'm seeing in many demonstration videos. I also wonder if maybe I need to give the dough more time to relax / "final proof" after coming out of the fridge? Or maybe that's all fine and I'm just over-tightening the dough during shaping, leaving the top too thin and weak?
Finally, I've read that "de-gassing" is a thing but I'm not sure what that means, nor how to do it, or even if it;s considered a good thing to do?
Anyone have any ideas or suggestions for me?
You can reduce oven spring by proofing longer (and also bulking longer, but in this case it seems like bulk was more than long enough). You can add other scores to relieve pressure on any one. You could try reducing the amount of starter. You could preheat the oven and steel to a lower temperature (try 400 deg F and see if that makes a difference).
That initial oven setting of 415 after steam generation is probably irrelevant. I've been setting it down to 250 deg F at that time and not increasing for 20 minutes, and getting the same or better results in the final product.
As usual, thanks for weighing in @tpassin ! I'll try these next bake!
Oh, and I just remembered that large loaves bake better at lower temperatures. This is because it takes longer for the heat to penetrate to the middle, and there ie relatively more moisture to evaporate from the surface of the loaf. Yours uses twice the flour as many of mine yet you have been using similar oven temperatures. Another reason for lowering the setting (and baking longer to compensate).
I forget if you said you had checked the oven temperature to see if it's close to the setting. Many home ovens are not. Actually, it's a hard thing to measure because the temperature is different in different places, even more so with a steel in place. I'd use a non-contact infrared thermometer and check the temperature of the steel.
I'll see about finding a way to check this - thank you!
Well, I tried it again with a few minor tweaks and ended up with virtually identical results as last time - EXPLODIO!
A quick summary of the bake:
INGREDIENTS
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The loaf had MASSIVE oven spring again!
I had hoped that by proofing longer both during bulk and giving it about an hour once out of the fridge this morning that it might "spring" less, but that was not to be.
My next try I will proof the loaf in the fridge for MUCH longer. I'll probably prep it Friday afternoon and bake it Sunday morning, adding about 24 hours to the retard. I'll also definitely do another slit - one is clearly not enough.
Still, The loaf is absolutely delicious and I definitely find I prefer the texture more without the oil I had been using.
At this point I would look at changing how you score the loaf. It looks like you are made a long straight score somewhat off-center. A longitudinal score promotes opening sideways - and you have too much of that. Scores across the top promote upward expansion. I suggested some other patterns in an earlier comment, IIRC. I don't know how deeply you are scoring but less deep might be better.
The larger the loaf, the more the interior pressure will tend to dominate the surface tension (think of large vs small water balloons). Your loaves are relatively large (in terms of what I usually make, anyway). So you want to weaken the surface less.
T-65 flour is relatively soft so it will tend to move sideways more than a more elastic dough would. And being more extensible and less elastic, it resists rising pressures less. That's another factor favoring shallower scores across the top.
Raising the initial baking temperature might help to harden the crust before there is too much expansion. But in a home oven that might not help too much since the initial steam will lower the temperature so much. The temperature can take a surprisingly long time to recover no matter what you dial into the setting.
These are great suggestions, thank you!
If you happen to run across a photo that illustrates the scoring pattern you recommend please point it out for me!
I thought I had already done that but it must have been in another
postthread. Here are a few of mine.This next one was not really a boule but a short, fat batarde but it might give you ideas:
If you added up the widths of all the slashes in one of these loaves, the total expansion would rival the opening of any of those single long scores that one sees in all those videos.
Ah - you did! I apologize - I read and pictured something different by your description but now it makes sense.
My bad - thank you!