Hi,
I started my sourdough journey about a year ago, created my own starter from scratch. About 6 months in, I discovered The Sourdough Journey, and I started to get really consistent results - I baked 1-2 loaves a week with about a 90% success rate for 3-4 months.
I keep my starter in the fridge, and use the feed and deplete method. I feed the starter once a week - I take it out of the fridge for 12 hrs, and then I feed it 1:2:2 with 50% bread flour and 50% rye. It peaks in about 12 hours @ 21C ambient temp, and then put it back in the fridge.
To make bread, I make a 1:10:10 leaven and let it rise for 12 hrs. My bread is 20% leaven, 75% hydration, 90% Roger's bread flour, 10% Anita's rye flour (Canadian brands), 2% kosher salt. I use a stand mixer on speed 2 for 12 min, coil folds at 90 min and 180 min, bulk ferment for another 9-10 hours at 19-21C ambient temp (I look for about 80% rise), shape, cold proof, and bake. My bread usually looks like the first attached picture
About a couple months ago, we left the starter in the fridge for a few weeks. When I took it out, it smelled acidic, so I did a few 1:10:10 feeds and then it got back to smelling yeasty. The starter is now rising as it did before.
However, now all of a sudden, I follow the exact same instructions that had been giving me success for 3-4 months, and my dough barely rises during the bulk ferment! I've had about 6 consecutive failures, they all look like the 2nd attached picture.
Between the 3-4 months of consecutive successes, and the 1 month of consecutive failures: the only two differences are the starter (maybe something happened?) and the season (successes were in summer / fall, failures were in winter). The temp in my house is pretty consistent all year, but maybe the humidity changed?
Does anyone have any idea what I can try to fix this problem? I'm desperate, willing to try anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
It sounds like your process is very consistent so you have a good base to know something has changed. That's helpful. Your standard loaf looks very good.
With the process under control, that leaves the ingredients. If you starter looks, smells, and refreshes as usual, then maybe not the starter. OTOH, if you had no "successes" after the starter incident, maybe it's still in the running. Have you tried leaving bulk fermentation go longer?
Otherwise, we can look at a change in the flour or a change in the water. Rogers flour ought to be pretty well standardized, but the rye is probably not. I'm in the US so I've never used Rogers flour. You could try baking a loaf using all white flour, preferably another large brand besides Rogers. If that behaves well then the flour is likely the issue. Otherwise get some bottled water (not distilled) and try using that. Some members have had good results doing that when nothing else helped.
One thing about your refreshing practice. I would put the starter back into the fridge well before it peaks. it will continue to ferment in the cold, and therefore be more active (or at least, less past its prime) when you come back a week later to use it.
TomP
Thank you so much!!
So I’ve left it to ferment for 18 hours at about 21C ambient temp, I check the dough temp periodically and it is about 22C, it only rises about 40% (looking for 65-80% as per the sourdough journey charts, which I would get after 12 hrs in the past at similar temps). Wondering if humidity has an effect? Thinking 20+ hours seems really excessive.
I have tried a couple variations in flour, same result. I will try putting the starter in the fridge well before it peaks and see if that makes a difference.
When the dough gets to that 12-hour point and hasn't risen very much, does it feel the same as it used to? If you stretch it, does it tighten up and get more elastic or does it just pull out lifelessly? It should do the first. If not, the protein in the dough may be getting attacked, either by enzymes in the flour or by the dough being extra acidic.
If you want to cover more possibilities, you could create a new starter and see if that raises dough like your old one used to. If you want to do that, I suggest using an acidic liquid (not vinegar, apparently) instead of water to start out with. Canned pineapple juice seems to be very good. This will jump-start the process and cut days off the time needed to create a new starter. The reason is that as the new nascent starter develops, its acidity increases little by little. The dormant yeast won't wake up until the pH gets low enough (i.e., the acidity gets high enough). In the meantime, the higher acidity suppresses the growth of organisms that you don't want to end up with.
At 12 hours the dough is pretty wet, sticky, dense, has some stretch but not much. It is pretty much the same at 16 hours.
I dehydrated some starter a few months ago and have chips in my freezer, will try to revive one and try another loaf. Never done this before though so that is another variable :)
Thanks again for your help!
Does the dough at 12 hours seem to act the same as it used to?
From the looks of the second picture, it's underfermented, and also maybe underdeveloped or too high hydration (based on the height and spread). If you're using the same recipe with the same schedule, then that probably narrows it down to starter activity or temperature. If your starter and leaven are rising to the same height in the same time frame as before, then it's probably working fine and I would really look into the temperature. This is your first winter making sourdough, so there may be adjustments that you have to make. Were you measuring the dough temperature at the beginning and end of bulk fermentation during the summer? Even if your thermostat is set to the same temperature, could there be local temperature variations within your house? For example, my kitchen is cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter than the rest of my house because of how our vents are set up and the location of our thermostat, but even within the kitchen if I have something next to the exterior wall it can get noticeably cooler. Could your water temperature be different between the summer and winter?
Then again, if your starter and leaven are rising fine then the temperature is probably not the factor.
Humidity may play a role in the slackness of the dough, but I wouldn't expect it to delay fermentation if it's higher.
Honestly, 12-13 hours of bulk fermentation seems like a long time to get 80% rise with 20% leaven. Obviously it was working for you before, but I use 5-6% leaven for a 12 hour bulk to get it to double, and during the warmer months (when it might be 24C in my house at most) I have to be careful that it doesn't go to 150% rise. I don't want to turn this into a starter measuring contest or anything, I'm just wondering if the cold storage is affecting the starter's activity. Have you tried making your leaven from a warm starter at peak ripeness? Most recipes with 20% leaven that I have seen are shaping after 4-5 hours unless they retard the bulk.
Hi,
Yes, I have tried using a warm starter after feeding and before it peaks, same result :(
Continuing the theme on temperature, I forgot to mention that I use ice water at about 5C to mix, and I deliberately ferment the dough in my basement which is between 19C-21C through the night. I deliberately keep everything cold because it works with my work schedule - I mix around 6pm, shape at 6am and put it in the fridge before I head off to work. I measure the dough temp at the beginning and end, and the dough temp is around 20-21C which is the same as previous months when I was consistently getting successful loaves.
I was thinking winter might be a factor, and I was going to try proofing in my anova precision oven at 25C and see if that makes a difference. And as I mentioned in a previous comment I’ll also try using starter from my freezer to remove another variable.
Thanks very much for the help!!
aha!
your cold mix explains your long fermentation times.
You say you want to try proofing at 25C in your Anova. I'd be concerned proofing at that temp for 9-10 hours might move things toward overfermentation. Perhaps think about bulk fermenting in the Anova and then doing your usual cold proof in the fridge before baking.
Rob
Oh sorry I meant to say I want to try bulk fermentation in my Anova Precision Oven at 25C - No idea how long it will take, but I will monitor, I'm guessing it's somewhere between 3-5 hours? And then shape and cold proof in the fridge as before.
Will try that soon and report back :)
you could also mimic your usual process and try it at, say, 21C -- and see how the dough feels after 9-10 hours. Maybe there's been more winter-time temp turbulence in your basement than you think.
If that doesn't work, maybe push it to 22, and so on. It's best to have the bread work with your schedule.
Rob
PS - do you bake in the Anova?
yeah I tried my usual fermentation process and monitored it throughout the day, the dough was definitely not ready after 9-10 hrs. Haven't tried playing around with temperature though.
And yes I bake in the anova and I love it :) I have a baking steel that's made to fit in the Anova
my brother-in-law has an Anova. It is revelatory for ryes. All the rye loaves I baked at their house were things of beauty. I had more issues with wheat breads, which baked insanely fast and tended to scorch. And when I tried loading two, they charred on the sides closest to the center & were underdone everywhere else.😂 But he didn't have the steel. He's an early adopter & I don't think they even offered a steel at the time he got his oven.
I considered getting one but the wiring in my apartment is ancient and can't handle an appliance that pulls so much power when its working hard.😞
Rob
Yes it runs hot and you have to adapt your recipes accordingly. Baking steel is nice for yeast breads like baguettes too. I use my bigger oven / bigger baking steel for pizzas though cause I need bigger pizzas for the family. I use the anova a lot for air sous vide meats and fish, and I use it a lot for roasting, it roasts a whole chicken really beautifully.
Rob