There have been many threads on Altamura-style breads on TFL, and I have tried my hand at them, with OK but not outstanding results. Mwilson among others has given us a lot of helpful information. But with all the reading I've done, I realized that I hadn't come across some basic facts about the durum flour used this Altamura bread. I thought I would see what Claude, a chatbot, would come up with. For what it's worth, here is the transcript:
Me
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This session is about flours for home baking. I am interested in Italian re-milled durum flour as used for altamura bread. My questions are
1. Are these flours stone-ground or roller-milled?
2. Are these flours bolted or 100% whole grain?
Claude
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For traditional Altamura DOP bread flour:
1. Roller-milled. The durum wheat is milled using modern roller mills, not stone mills. The term "re-milled" (rimacinato) refers to multiple passes through roller mills to achieve very fine granulation.
2. It's bolted/sifted, not whole grain. The extraction rate is typically around 70-75%, removing most of the bran and germ. This results in the characteristic fine, pale yellow flour used for Altamura bread.
Note that my knowledge of specific modern producer practices may be incomplete, as techniques can vary by miller.
Me
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Do you know a typical ash content for this kind of flour?
Claude
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For Italian durum rimacinato flour used in Altamura bread, the typical ash content is around 0.85-0.90%. This is consistent with its partially refined/bolted status, falling between whole grain durum (~1.5%) and very refined semola (~0.7%).
Me
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Are there published values of W and P/L for these flours?
Claude
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Yes. For Altamura DOP flour specifications:
W (strength): 180-250 W
P/L ratio: typically 1.5-2.0
These values reflect the flour's moderate strength and relatively high tenacity, characteristic of durum wheat.
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I was surprised by the low value of W and the high value of P/L. They are not at all typical for bread-making flours.
I would think that these reported facts ought to be reliable since the information must be out there and the chatbot only needs to focus and summarize them. But maybe someone knows better, and corrections would be welcome.
TomP
Semolina is the endosperm. Durum is called so because it is a hard grain. It is the only wheat great to be labelled as hard wheat and it doesn't have anything to do with the gluten. Because it is a hard wheat when ground it produce a grit. Semolina means grit. If one re-mills semolina it becomes a flour aka fine. So terms like semolina flour doesn't make total sense. It's either semolina or flour. However we've come to think of any grain that is ground is a flour but it really is all in the grind itself.
Not sure what value, if any, i've added to the discussion.
If the endosperm is separated from the outer layers by the first-stage rolling process, the endosperm wouldn't be as hard, would it?
At least in the US, many mills call a finely-ground durum product "flour" - usually with the words "extra fancy durum". Hayden Mills has a durum product they call "Arizona Golden Durum Ultra fine flour". I have always supposed that these are equivalent to rimacinato, but perhaps that's not the case?
That the properties of durum wheat, because it is a hard wheat, it naturally produces a grit like grind. To get it into a flour it needs to milled again.
Extra Fancy Durum Flour is an American terminology and it is my understanding it is the equivalent of rimacinata.
Even semolina has different grinds. You will find coarse to fine semolina but even the fine semolina is still more like grit than flour. Only when sourcing rimacinata can you see the difference. I've tried using fine semolina to make altamura bread and while it is good it isn't as good as rimacinata.
All rimacinata I can find locally, in the UK, is imported from Italy.
I'm not following the logic here. The outer layers are not hard.
The hardness of the grain is attributed to the protein content and structure to the endosperm.
Bran is composed of the thin outer coat layers covering the body of the endosperm similar to the papery brown outer layer you might find on an almond or hazelnut etc. This is the seed coat (testa). Wheat kernels come with another surrounding layer, the fruit coat (pericarp). However during milling much of the aleurone layer, the outermost layer of the endosperm is stripped off along with bran and germ during the first stage of roller milling.
Germ is from the embryo and is rich in lipids (fats) and is soft textured.
The product that results from grinding wheat gives meal. After removing the bran and germ to obtain the endosperm the resulting matter can be referred to as below:
Coarse meal = Semolina
Fine meal = flour
Starch is formed and stored by the plant into very large crystalline granule structures. Protein is distributed around these granules and forms a protein matrix which contributes to the hardness of the grain. The size and distribution of starch granules also contribute to the hardness.
The grinding of soft wheat will provide little if any semolina. To obtain semolina one must mill hard wheat.
Durum is the hardest wheat of all!
Tom,
I looked into this years ago and I was able to find a D.O.P. regulations document that you can download here. It says a lot about the ingredients that go into Pane di Altamura, and of course they are written to isolate and make distinct the region. Perhaps you have come across this already.
FWIW, at the time, what caught my attention most of all was the relatively high Ca++ ion content and alkalinity of the water.
-Brad
Thanks! I was looking for this on line last night but didn't come up with it.
I think the pH of the water isn't as significant as the calcium, which would tend to keep the pH of the dough higher than it would be otherwise. Also, since the water temperature is specified, I suppose the intent is to use the water at that temperature.
The temperature of the water is interesting, but it is not clear if they are assuming a specific ambient temperature and accommodating for it. We probably all sometimes use cool water when the weather is warm.
I have looked unsuccessfully for the specific varieties of durum here in the states, but no one lists that detail. I doubt it really matters, probably another way to define the geographical DOP region. In Italy, especially in Altamura, the variety is listed prominently on the package. My first trip there I carried back 5 kg, but I’m a little crazy.
I was able to get close to the Ca++ and alkalinity by using bottled water. Most European sources list the ion content on the label. I recall that it did affect the dough somewhat, but the details escape me at the moment.
-Brad