Hello:
Having inconsistencies with my loaves holding shape during the bake. My standard sourdough loaf is 75% bread flour and 25% mix of spelt and whole wheat. My starter is very active and the bulk proof has lots of bubbles and rise. After mixing by hand, I do 4 coil folds during the bulk rise. I retard the dough overnight in the fridge (in bannetons). But, when I turn them out to score and drop into the dutch ovens, the spread and do not hold their shape. The result is a bread with a fairly nice open crumb but not much rise. I've baked these at 80% hydration all the way down to 75% hydration. Do I need to drop the hydration further? Any other suggestions?
Thanks,
David
David,
The formula itself doesn’t suggest a hydration issue, at least in my experience. If you are new to bread making, it can be difficult to judge when the bulk fermentation is done. Your description of the problem is consistent with this, but more information is needed to make a reliable conclusion. Perhaps a few more details can help to isolate the issue:
How long and at what temperature is your bulk ferment?
What percentage of the mix is the prefermented flour?
What is the hydration of your starter, and do you account for that in the 75% overall hydration figure (this is a basic question and the answer is probably yes, but it has to be asked)?
Have you made the same bread without the whole wheat or spelt, i.e, an all white flour bread? Has it worked better?
How old is your starter?
-Brad
Hi Brad,
Thanks for the thorough response. Here are the answers to your questions:
How long and at what temperature is your bulk ferment? 5 hours at 72-74 degrees.
What percentage of the mix is the prefermented flour? For this answer, I’m pasting the recipe for 4 loaves at 1lb 10oz each:
1280 g white bread flour (13% protein)
160 g spelt flour
160 g whole wheat flour
1200 g water (78%)
320 g starter
32 g salt
What is the hydration of your starter, and do you account for that in the 75% overall hydration figure (this is a basic question and the answer is probably yes, but it has to be asked)? I use a 1:2:2 feeding for maintaining my starter (1 part starter to 2 parts flour and water), and yes, I account for the hydration in the starter.
Have you made the same bread without the whole wheat or spelt, i.e, an all white flour bread? Has it worked better? No..haven’t tried this.
How old is your starter? I’ve been maintaining the same starter for over 10 years. When I refresh it the night before baking, it doubles in size and is very active (also regularly passes the float test).
Thanks again,
David
David,
My initial thought was overfermentation, but your process seems pretty normal. 77% hydration, 10% prefermented flour, 5hrs bulk at a relatively low temperature just doesn’t seem to fit that model.
Overfermented doughs are often affected by protease attack on the glutens, causing lack of structure. That still seems to be your problem. To dig a bit deeper, how mature is your levain when you mix it into the dough? 1:2:2 shouldn’t need more than a couple of hours before it is ready to use (though I use a different ratio I can’t suggest a suitable time). I tend to use it earlier in the cycle, before it collapses, and therefore before the proteases start to take over. That is something you might want to try.
The only other thing I would ask is, has anything changed recently? Different water source, different brand of flour, even different lot number of flour? These, again, are obvious places to look and I assume you have already considered them.
-Brad
Brad,
I think you've hit on two things I need to look into a bit more:
#1: I usually let my levain mature overnight before using...it takes mine more than a couple hours to double in size. Maybe I am waiting too long....I can tinker with that.
#2: Yes, I recently switched to a new, organic bread flour (previously used King Arthur's bread flour). So, that might be another contributing factor.
I'll try another round tomorrow and report back!
Thanks again...much appreciated,
David
Hi Brad,
I dropped the hydration down to 70% and kept the same blend of flours. The rise was better (see photo) this time but still not fantastic. My next move is to go back to the King Arthur bread flour and see if that helps.
Thanks,
David
bread oven spring.jpg
Over - as in fermentation. Enjoy!
How you shape the loaves might also be a factor. This video: SHAPING high hydration DOUGH | Shaping SOURDOUGH bread HOWTO - YouTube explains how to create surface tension in the dough. Doing so will help the loaves to maintain their shape.
Hi Brad,
I dropped the hydration down to 70% and kept the same blend of flours. The rise was better (see photo) this time but still not fantastic. My next move is to go back to the King Arthur bread flour and see if that helps.
Thanks,
David
David,
I think you are quite close. A couple of other things are suggested by the photo. But first a question. Is the crumb more moist than you would expect? If it is, it might suggest that you’re still over fermenting the dough. this is sometimes referred to as gumminess. It happens more frequently with rye doughs than wheat, but it’s not unheard of.
If not, I’d expect to see a larger bloom and more grigne from 70% hydration, So, as previously mentioned by Petek, you may want to shape the loaves more tightly. it’s quite important to get a lot of tension on the outside of the loaf.
The last thing is to make sure you’re getting enough gluten strength in the dough. You can check this by doing a window pane test.
Good luck.
-Brad
Brad,
Thanks. I don't think the crumb was gummy. I've had that issue before but don't think it was the case here.
I have noticed that this dough doesn't typically pass the window pane test, so that might be another issue. Perhaps my initial mixing and the coil folds aren't enough?
Thanks,
David