I assume by "how long" you mean length, not time. You roll out the pieces to 12".
"3/4 proof" means the rolls are allowed to expand to 1.75 times their original size.
There are many ways to make an egg wash. The simplest is to just lightly beat an egg. You can add a tsp or so of water. You can add a pinch of salt. You can add an extra egg yolk. I generally go with the simplest.
They should bake in about 15 minutes, but watch them.
suger 2 oz or 1 oz sugar and 1 oz honey for better freashness
salt 1/4 oz shortening or butter or some kind of fat 1 1/4 oz skim milk powder 1 0z
whole egg 2 oz (one large egg) water 8 oz
patent (12.5% proten) bread flour 1 LB fresh yeast 1oz or dry yeast 1/2 oz
one bulk rise and cut into 2.5-3 oz ( i get one dozen from this formula cut down from the bakery size of course)
mix well in a KAid or other mixer this dough will take 15-20 minutes but will come clean from the mixer using a C dough hook whold back from adding extra flour just let the mixer work should be a soft dough like white pan bread
shape into knots and alow 3/4 proof before washing them with egg wash wait 2 minutes and wash with egg wash a second time and bake at a low oven 350- 375-
do not alow full proof or the rolls will fall during washing and baking.
First do I understand that this is a 50% (plus the fat and egg) hydration dough? 1 pound of flour and half a pound of water? Using 2oz for the egg and 1.5 oz fat that would be a total of 63%, yes?
Second do you have a photo or description of the double knot for a graphically deficient beginner? I'm sure it's simple but I can't picture it.
Third, just to be sure the egg is in the dough and the wash is another egg?
Hi, Eric.
In addition to the video already suggested, both Hamelman and Greenstein have line drawings and written directions for making up rolls like Norm's.
But a warning: Hamelman's instructions are in his section on braiding. There is a serious risk of getting sucked into a vortex of possibilities. But, apparently, he provides a mere sampling. He talks about learning from an old German bakery manual with "hundreds" of braiding patterns.
David
David, I saw that in Bread. I just thought maybe Norm would have a slant on doing the braid/knot that would be traditional. I do 6 strand Challah but I'm usually drooling by the second from neural overload:>). You gave me a good idea for Turkey day. My absolute favorite part of Thanksgiving dinner is the sandwich later and next day. I'll bet that dough would be good for those.
I'm just wrapping up a post on JH VSD with additional whole grain flour (Bread, Pg. 156). If you haven't tried that one, you should give a go word for word. It's very good and nice and tangy without the overnight retard. Quiet a surprise.
Hi, Eric.
I'm betting Norm uses exactly the same technique. I think it is very "traditional." But, we'll let him comment.
I have and have not made the Vermont SD with Increased Whole Grain. I haven't made it from "Bread." However, in reading it, I find it is almost identical to the "pain de campagne" alias "San Joaquin Sourdough" I make. Mine uses 10% whole rye rather than Hamelman's 15%, and I retard the dough during bulk fermentation. Even the proportion of pre-ferment is the same.
That is so interesting, since my formula was developed experimentally as Janedo and I fiddled with Anis Bouabsa's baguette formula.
David
When I was working on my rye formula, after all the fooling with the amounts and times, I discovered that I had arrived at Greenstein's/Hamelmans recipe. It was enjoyable getting there and I learned quite a bit in the process so what the hey. :>)
Lately I have been thinking about how much I enjoy the progress I have been making. My breads are starting to come together well and look as good as they taste. I've only been baking for a couple years and just now I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. I'm beginning to appreciate the more subtle changes that seem to have a large effect on flavor.
I prefer to not extend the baking cycle to 3 days by using an overnight retard phase. For me it's just to hard to stay on task and find time to follow through. So many distractions with home/kids and computer support. Everybody has an emergency. I'm sure you know of what I speak. My oldest daughter thinks it's weird I plan my schedule around "bread". Hahaha!
Hi, Eric.
The emergence of skills and increased sense of competence is an upper, for sure.
Regarding 3-day baking cycles and retardation: Besides the impact on flavor, I find that retardation gives me more flexibility in time allocation for baking. It does require planning ahead, but it sure is easier for me to plan a 4 hour block of time than an 8 or 12 hour block.
Whichever, there are still times when the bread's demands stress other necessities.
David
I have the dough fermenting for a batch of these rolls, destined for leftover Thanksgiving Turkey sandwiches.
The dough came together nicely in 15-20 minutes, as Norm said it would. However, as I was mixing, I realized that, as comfortable as I feel with lean sourdoughs, I am still a novice when it comes to enriched doughs.
So, I'm asking: What is the best technique for combining the ingredients for a dough like this? Assuming machine mixing (KitchenAid, for example), can you just dump all the ingredients in the bowl, mix with the paddle, then knead with the hook?
Here's what I did, but I wonder if I made more of a fuss than was necessary:
1. Measured out each ingredient separately.
2. Mixed flour, salt and milk powder in a bowl.
3. Mixed water, sugar and yeast in the mixer bowl. Let it sit for a few minutes.
4. Added the flour-salt-milk mixture to the water-sugar-yeast and mixed.
5. Added the shortening and mixed. This was very dry.
6. Added the egg and mixed. This was now a wet dough.
7. Switched from the paddle to the dough hook and kneaded for about 20 minutes, scraping down the bowl a couple of time.
At this point, the dough cleaned the sides of the bowl but was sticking to the bottom, kind of like a 67-70% hydration lean dough would. The dough had good gluten development and was smooth but tacky.
So, was the mixing in stages a waste of time or not?
David
Hi David,
Don't know if there is a right or wrong, but this is how I mix enriched doughs and it always seems to work fine.
Since I use active dry yeast, rather than instant, i hydrate the yeast in the water/milk and the dissolved sweeteners
Mix together the shortening and egg in a separate bowl
Blend the dry ingredients (flour, salt, etc.) with the paddle for a minute or so at low speed
Add both the water-based and fat-based liquids at the same time with the beater going and mix to blend before switching to the hook
I find that by adding the wets to the drys, I get a better, smoother dough, without any lumps.
Hope this helps, Stan
I just added flour and yeast (IDY). Then I beat egg with liquid ingredients and I did add the sugar at that point and folded in flour. I added shortening when I had most of the dry incorporated with liquid. Then kneaded.I don't normally use a mixer and it came together easy by hand.
i hope i can cover every body in this first the mixing you can add everything to the bowl at once with no problems with the one rule
if using fresh yeast like i do just crumble the yeast into the flour and add it last. if dry yeast follow the instructions on the yeast is active dry then put it in the water and add the water last on top of the flour is instant yeast just add it to the flour and add the flour last.
mixing in stages is not needed just use the hook (for soft doughs like this a c shaped hook is best) the dough should be developed in about 20 minutes and come clean if not add maybe a 1/2 ounce more flour yours might have absorbed some moisture from the air.
as for shaping a knot just role a strip (we callit a stripe) about 9 to 10 inches long , take the right end if your right handed and make a loop de loop so that the right end is once again pointed to the right and the stripe now looks like the script letter e
pust the left end through the loop from the top down and the right end through the loop from the bottom up and thats it tour knot is formed
for a figure 8 put the stripe so one end is closer to you and the other end is pounted away. take the end closer to you and lopefrom right to left and press it into the middle of the stripe so in looke like the number 6 take the top end and push it through the loop so it is pointed to the left then take the bottom look and gige it a halv twist to the left and then take the losend and push it through the lobe .
yes i know ill make another bideo this week it is easer than it sounds
I just tried making these today. This is my first post here too, so please don't critique too hard :) I just thought this recipe was so nice to follow and I think mine came out pretty good
David
this formula is a soft crust roll not the same as the onion roll
Hi,
Thank you for your recipe!
Here is my questions:
1).How long should I roll out the dough before I make the knot.
2).What does it mean "alow 3/4 proof "?
3). How to you make egg wash?
4). How long do I bake for 2.5 oz dough?
Thank you!
Thank you!
I assume by "how long" you mean length, not time. You roll out the pieces to 12".
"3/4 proof" means the rolls are allowed to expand to 1.75 times their original size.
There are many ways to make an egg wash. The simplest is to just lightly beat an egg. You can add a tsp or so of water. You can add a pinch of salt. You can add an extra egg yolk. I generally go with the simplest.
They should bake in about 15 minutes, but watch them.
Hope this helps.
David
Thank you for your answering my questions!
in a word Yup
Those look lovely, could just eat one now with my boiled egg.
I like the sesame ones best.
Oh these look so delicious - is the formula here somewhere, or could you post it for me please?
thanks in advance -
Lynne
suger 2 oz or 1 oz sugar and 1 oz honey for better freashness
salt 1/4 oz
shortening or butter or some kind of fat 1 1/4 oz
skim milk powder 1 0z
whole egg 2 oz (one large egg)
water 8 oz
patent (12.5% proten) bread flour 1 LB
fresh yeast 1oz or dry yeast 1/2 oz
one bulk rise and cut into 2.5-3 oz ( i get one dozen from this formula cut down from the bakery size of course)
mix well in a KAid or other mixer this dough will take 15-20 minutes but will come clean from the mixer using a C dough hook whold back from adding extra flour just let the mixer work should be a soft dough like white pan bread
shape into knots and alow 3/4 proof before washing them with egg wash wait 2 minutes and wash with egg wash a second time and bake at a low oven 350- 375-
do not alow full proof or the rolls will fall during washing and baking.
David
Norm,
I have 3 questions on this.
First do I understand that this is a 50% (plus the fat and egg) hydration dough? 1 pound of flour and half a pound of water? Using 2oz for the egg and 1.5 oz fat that would be a total of 63%, yes?
Second do you have a photo or description of the double knot for a graphically deficient beginner? I'm sure it's simple but I can't picture it.
Third, just to be sure the egg is in the dough and the wash is another egg?
Thanks,
Eric
@ eric, double knot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISBKnbjH_o
@ norm, yumm. nice ones.
yes the egg wash is a second egg
if you want to call me i could talk you through the shape which would make it very clear.
David
David,
I saw that in Bread. I just thought maybe Norm would have a slant on doing the braid/knot that would be traditional. I do 6 strand Challah but I'm usually drooling by the second from neural overload:>). You gave me a good idea for Turkey day. My absolute favorite part of Thanksgiving dinner is the sandwich later and next day. I'll bet that dough would be good for those.
I'm just wrapping up a post on JH VSD with additional whole grain flour (Bread, Pg. 156). If you haven't tried that one, you should give a go word for word. It's very good and nice and tangy without the overnight retard. Quiet a surprise.
Eric
David
Hi David,
When I was working on my rye formula, after all the fooling with the amounts and times, I discovered that I had arrived at Greenstein's/Hamelmans recipe. It was enjoyable getting there and I learned quite a bit in the process so what the hey. :>)
Lately I have been thinking about how much I enjoy the progress I have been making. My breads are starting to come together well and look as good as they taste. I've only been baking for a couple years and just now I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. I'm beginning to appreciate the more subtle changes that seem to have a large effect on flavor.
I prefer to not extend the baking cycle to 3 days by using an overnight retard phase. For me it's just to hard to stay on task and find time to follow through. So many distractions with home/kids and computer support. Everybody has an emergency. I'm sure you know of what I speak. My oldest daughter thinks it's weird I plan my schedule around "bread". Hahaha!
Eric
David
Those look great!!! I have to try this one!
Thanks Norm!
David
David
I have nothing to add and no questions, yet, but want to follow this thread and be notified when something new is added.
Great rolls Norm. weavershouse
i hope i can cover every body in this first the mixing you can add everything to the bowl at once with no problems with the one rule
if using fresh yeast like i do just crumble the yeast into the flour and add it last. if dry yeast follow the instructions on the yeast is active dry then put it in the water and add the water last on top of the flour is instant yeast just add it to the flour and add the flour last.
mixing in stages is not needed just use the hook (for soft doughs like this a c shaped hook is best) the dough should be developed in about 20 minutes and come clean if not add maybe a 1/2 ounce more flour yours might have absorbed some moisture from the air.
as for shaping a knot just role a strip (we callit a stripe) about 9 to 10 inches long , take the right end if your right handed and make a loop de loop so that the right end is once again pointed to the right and the stripe now looks like the script letter e
pust the left end through the loop from the top down and the right end through the loop from the bottom up and thats it tour knot is formed
for a figure 8 put the stripe so one end is closer to you and the other end is pounted away. take the end closer to you and lopefrom right to left and press it into the middle of the stripe so in looke like the number 6 take the top end and push it through the loop so it is pointed to the left then take the bottom look and gige it a halv twist to the left and then take the losend and push it through the lobe .
yes i know ill make another bideo this week it is easer than it sounds
Should I use 8 oz cold or warm water?
Thanks!
I just tried making these today. This is my first post here too, so please don't critique too hard :) I just thought this recipe was so nice to follow and I think mine came out pretty good
Norm,
Those are beautiful and keep their shape after baking. Going to practice them for Thanksgiving. Thank for recipe
Pam