Hi to all, a new guy wanting to bake some bread! Who knew it was this complex?! Love a challenge and learning new skills and it sure seems like both. Sorry for my first post to be about such a mundane subject as getting my starter going but...I assume you were all there at some point. I have to pass first grade to get to the good stuff. My question...where to go...
Began my starter with 120g water and 120g Bob's Red Mill WW pastry flour. It took off like no one's business. Tripled in size in 24 hours, lots of bubbles. Day 2, 24 hours later, feeding was 1/2 cup starter, 1/2 water, and a switch to 120g of King Arthurs Unbleached All-Purpose. 24 hours later, the morning of Day 3, I got some bubbles and it had increased in size somewhat but not doubled and nowhere near the activity from the first day. Day 3 feeding was the same as Day 2. This morning, morning of Day 4 there is nothing. No growth in volume and a 1/4" of hooch on top. Looked deader than a doornail. So...I poured off the hooch, replaced it with the same amount of water, and fed again with the same ratios. I am now approaching 12 hours after that feeding and see bubbling but no increase in volume.
Question is do I move to feeding it twice a day now, feed it tonight to get more activity, or should I just be patient and wait until tomorrow morning, a full 24 hours to feed it again?
Any comments appreciated!!
So here I am lost in space...again...recap (if anyone is still following me on this):
Wed - started up using the "bad" recipe, 28g WW flour, 52g pineapple juice.
Thurs - thickened up with 28g four (not 52g stated above) and 16g juice due to the flour making it too thick
Sat morning - some bubbles, added 36g WWF and 32g juice
Sunday morning, Day 4 - flat as a pancake (sorry), a few, very few minute bubbles
There has been no rise at all since the beginning. None.
I now have starter that is 93g WWF, 104g juice, total 197g. Has thinned out now. TBBA recipe says "Day 3" I should 1/2 the starter and add 72% of that in grams of flour and 64% in water but with no real activity to speak of....??? MAybe be patient, give it another day to show me something?
I should have thrown this out and begun again with the touted TBBA recipe as soon as I realized I was following an unconventional or typo'd recipe from days of yore.
I've changed my motto from "Who's yo daddy?" to "SD Starter is my daddy".
So here I am lost in space...again...recap (if anyone is still following me on this):
Wed - started up using the "bad" recipe, 28g WW flour, 52g pineapple juice.
Thurs - thickened up with 28g four (not 52g stated above) and 16g juice due to the flour making it too thick
Sat morning - some good bubbling, added 36g WWF and 32g juice
Sunday morning, Day 4 - flat as a pancake (sorry), a few, very few minute bubbles
There has been no rise at all since the beginning. None. I have been stirring 3 times a day.
I now have starter that is 93g WWF, 104g juice, total 197g. Has thinned out now. TBBA recipe says "Day 3" I should 1/2 the starter and add 72% of that in grams of flour and 64% in water but with no real activity to speak of....??? MAybe be patient, give it another day to show me something?
I should have thrown this out and begun again with the touted TBBA recipe as soon as I realized I was following an unconventional or typo'd recipe from days of yore.
I've changed my motto from "Who's yo daddy?" to "SD Starter is my daddy".
So here I am lost in space...again...recap (if anyone is still following me on this):
Wed - started up using the "bad" recipe, 28g WW flour, 52g pineapple juice.
Thurs - thickened up with 28g four (not 52g stated above) and 16g juice due to the flour making it too thick
Sat morning - some good bubbling, added 36g WWF and 32g juice
Sunday morning, Day 4 - flat as a pancake (sorry), a few, very few minute bubbles
There has been no rise at all since the beginning. None. I have been stirring 3 times a day.
I now have starter that is 93g WWF, 104g juice, total 197g. Has thinned out now. TBBA recipe says "Day 3" I should 1/2 the starter and add 72% of that in grams of flour and 64% in water but with no real activity to speak of....??? MAybe be patient, give it another day to show me something?
I should have thrown this out and begun again with the touted TBBA recipe as soon as I realized I was following an unconventional or typo'd recipe from days of yore.
I've changed my motto from "Who's yo daddy?" to "SD Starter is my daddy".
Since following something from tbba (whatever that is) why don't you ask them for help. It's their "recipe" - wouldn't they be the ones to ask?
"They" being....??? The Bread Bakers Apprentice, Reinhart's book.
is good news. Go ahead and half it or save 100g (to make the math easier) and add 72g flour and 64g pineapple juice?
"I should have thrown this out and begun again with the touted TBBA recipe as soon as I realized I was following an unconventional or typo'd recipe from days of yore."
It's not that far off. Keep going. :) Your warm temps are helpful. You are now starting the backsloshing part of making the starter. Thinning is a good sign." Patience. If you feel like you want to do something then just give it a stir every now and then (2 - 4 times a day.) You can also cut all the numbers in half if you want to conserve flour. (50g starter, 36g flour, 32g = 16g juice,16g water.
Because your initial mixture of flour and water reacted with lots of bubbles within 24 hours at the start of this post (way up at the top) I'd be inclined to keep using the pineapple juice in the liquids with eventually and gradually replacing some of the juice with water with each feed less juice and more water until the yeasts hop into action. At which time the acid is no longer needed for feeds. You don't happen to know the pH reading of your tap water?
Thanks Mini. I know this is (has?) grown old for you pros. I believe our PH (public water) is 8.0 if not slightly higher. I tested with my good quality pool water test kit and it shows the same but not sure that pool test kits apply to drinking water. Don't know why not though. Only have about 1/4 cup of pineapple juice left.
to work harder to lower the pH in the culture. Flour and water raise the pH and the bacteria has to lower it for the yeast to be stimulated into populating the culture. Good to know. That means keep adding a little pineapple juice to encourage the yeast and suppress invaders that live in the flour.
High pH can slow down the process of starting a starter. Are you glad? It's not you. Daddy, it's the water!
I'm sorry I didn't pick up right away in your second comment where you not only gave temps, but that you are in Florida! Very common problem in Florida is the higher than average pH. We could have avoided 100 comments! Na ya, but we are having a good time passing the time and getting distracted from other things. :)
Yep! Happy. I sort of knew it was high PH to begin with when I used it on the first Sink Cemetary'd batch. However, I didn't think it would be THAT high. With this one, no water just juice...yet. I mixed what you said but came up a tablespoon short on pineapple juice so supplemented with some water, yes tap, that has been sitting out for a week or so to get rid of any chlorine. So I went to the dark side just a little. Next time bottled water. Anyway, starter now looks like what I think it should look like and we shall see.
Next dumb question, I am assuming that I can't add water to the pineapple left in the can and let it soak and come up with VOILA! more juice correct? Trying to avoid yet another trip to the grocery store. Can't find straight unsweetened pineapple juice. Just cans with rings and pieces. Not a lot of juice in there! Should have bought two.
Thanks for hanging in there with me. Really, thanks.
I've used orange juice and pickle juice, vinegar, and lemon juice, apple juice. Sure you can crush the pineapple and use it. The trick now is to figure out what combination of water and a particular edible acid will get you normal pH water. You can play with your pool pH tester. Good to get about 7. Bottled water should include the pH reading. Lemon juice, lets see... there are posts around here too to find. Just off hand you could take 500g water and add a teaspoon of lemon juice or vinegar and pH test it. Then add more or less. You may even have acetic acid crystals for canning peaches or something around.
Then again...you can just wait for the starter bugs to lower the pH. Zzzzzzzzz.
Hy, I know, I have gallons of Muriatic Acid for the pool! That'll get it down to 7. Yeah, probably not a great idea :) I do have pickle juice but not sure if it is unsweetened. However, in all my reading (which has been way too much and I should have posted and read this thread and just gone with you, Phaz, Abe, and the others) I haven't seen any suggestions to go beyond the second feeding with juice. Every recipe seems to switch to water at that point. I do have bottled water and it appears that would be best going forward. Do folks use juice all the way through the development stage?
It varies. Most likely due to flour and water variations. I once had to go 5 days with juice only for a rye flour starter. But when the yeast kick in and youre getting a sour tasting starter goop, you can back off the juice lowering the amount and adding more water. Dont shock the starter with an abrupt feeding switch straight to water though, it might just pout. Better to taper off gradually.
You do want to encourage the bacteria that love to produce acids to be stimulated by the lack of acid. When enough acid is in the starter constantly, they get lazy. So it is important that the pH levels go up and down, low before feeding and high right after feeding. Then dropping during fermentation. If you haven't read Wink's articles, do so. #2 and #1.
Thanks, I have read them multiple times. Confused on your comment regarding PH needing to be "low before feeding and high after." It would seem that the bacteria would cause it raise and then feeding using juice would cause it to go lower. The opposite of what I want. I will read Ms. Wink....again.
the low pH is acid the high pH skale more alkaline. ...the more acid the lower the pH
before feeding a sourdough culture is often at its lowest pH reading and contains more acid
after feeding, adding flour and water (or juice) will raise pH readings, it will be at its highest pH reading and closer to neutral (not high pH). Sorry.
One thing to think about is the sourdough baking later on, the dough may benefit from a small increase in acid in every recipe. Using a water that has been lightly "spiked" with lemon juice, vinegar or vitamin C may be a good idea.
Geez,,,got it. I had a brain...bubble... and was thinking backward. This does explain my green pool though. :)
So at this point I am waiting on good activity and then another feeding, 1:1:1, correct? At the top of the mark if I can catch it. No activity, let it go. As Phaz told me, feed activity, don't feed hibernation. What happened to Phaz anyway? I think he gave up on me and abandoned the good ship Starter. Don't blame him!
Starter is coming along but a question. I have been stirring it about 8 hours after feeding and I notice that it is, for lack of a better term, sort of rubbery. Another 8 hours after stirring it has thinned greatly, like a thin batter. Is this thickening and then thinning out telling me anything in particular? Is it just the beginning of rising which I kill with the stirring? I haven't had any real rise, maybe 1/4" or so. No rise after stirring. Thanks in advance.
The "rubbery" is gluten formation. Nothing to worry about. Thinning is a concern and a sign food is running out. Another thing to not worry about - as long as it doesn't get to thin.
I've said before, may have been in this thread - get a wet dough like consistency and maintain. Enjoy!
Thanks, Phaz. Does gluten form at any particular stage of starter development? Is it indicative of anything in particular? Your comment makes me think that I should feed again when I see it begin to thin out? Appears that it is about the 12 hour point or so and maybe evidence I should go to twice daily feeding?
The right feeding routine (amount and frequency) is the routine that leaves a little rise at the point where it gets food again. Whatever the frequency, and whatever the amount, that's my rule - but ya gotta mix things up often enough so whatever food is available is able to be utilized by the bugs.
Gluten will form easiest early in the routine (if ya stir enough) ie - right after feeding. Then consumption takes over and thinning is the result. Enjoy!
OK, so I gave everyone a break from my endless starter story and went it alone for a while. Those of you who thought I gave up FOR SHAME!!!
Short version is I have starters made by following MS. Wink and her pineapple juice solution. As soon as I did that, VOILA! I am on day 5 with both. See pics below. King Arthur All Purpose flour on the left and WW on the right. I am doubling in size over the 6 hours shown on the jars. A little more in 8 hours. It has been all pineapple juice so far. I think it is time to move on to bottled water. Smell is...pineapple juice, not very much "sour" if any. WW smells a bit more like WW flour. Question is, they have now peaked for the day in 8 hours. What feeding ratios? Go to water or stick with what got me here, pineapple juice? would you suggest I move to at this point? Feedings have been 1:1:1: for the last 3 days. Comments appreciated!
For getting your starter going. While an increase, eventually, is what you're aiming for I'd stick to 1:1:1 for the changeover and not move on till you see how it reacts. Once it has had a few feeds of water at 1:1:1 and still doing well then slowly increase the feeds.
P.s. always save discard till you see it's going well then discard it. If all goes belly up then you've got back-up. Once you've fully changed over to water and it's going well then save the discard and when all goes well use the discard up in other recipes. Once your starter is fully fledged then no more discard with careful maintenance.
I wish anyone experiencing starter "birth pains" would just try purified or bottled water to establish a benchmark and eliminate one crucial variable.
I have read numerous posts throughout the decade plus of archived posts and a frequent complaint has been starter cultivation.
Now you will have to cover your eyes during feeding time to keep from being blinded by exploding yeast, LAB and other micro-critters. Best wishes. Dave
I switched from tap to bottled water with a ph of 7.0 but by then I had messed with it so much it was all over the place. Should have thrown it away and started again. I think the bottled water would have been fine but I was impatient and started messing with things. Anyway, started over with the pineapple juice and got good results 5 days in. I followed Abe's advice and stayed with a 1:1:1 feeding at 4:20p this afternoon and switched from juice to bottled water. I'm now at 6 hours and it has risen a good bit but much slower than with the juice. Not sure if I should wait for it to peak and feed tonight if I am up or stir it down and let it go overnight feed again early in the morning. I'm an early riser so it would be at about the 12-hour point. Probably overthinking it but don't want to have to go back to square one again!
I think if it slows down then you slow down your feedings. It's moving atleast and a slight change when swapping over is normal. If it's not peaked by the time it comes to bed then no harm in leaving it and feeding first thing in the morning. It's not going to run out of food and die in a few hours.
How's it looking now?
Both WW and AP just about doubled overnight. No sign of falling so I stirred them down at 6:30a. Gave them until 8:45a or so and saw no signs of a rise so I fed them another 1:1:1 (I think that's what it is) per WInk's "4th day and on". The pineapple smell had lessened considerably and they were pretty glutenous. I think I am on the right road and my flip to water seems to have been ok. I say that cautiously as what happened over and over in the past was that things look good and then they lessen with each feeding until there appears to be little to no activity and it stayed there. That's when I would get impatient and start playing. Again, I think if I had just stayed the course with those it probably would have been ok. I'm going to give them 12 hours and see what's what. Will try to feed again right at their peak/start of fall. I think that is the right thing, correct?
I do have a question after a month or so of doing this. Why was concrete created? We already had flour and water. Seems redundant to me. :)
I don't think there's any need to stir them down and get them to rise again and keep on doing this till they stop before feeding again. You're taking it to the exhaustion level. Once peaked keep it happy and active by feeding again. Peaking doesn't mean wringing every last ounce of life out of it. When peaked the level of yeasts is strong. After peaking it starts to favour bacteria and acidity builds up. Don't over think it. It's bubbled up and peaked... time to feed again. We don't wait till we've fainted before eating again. And if you don't catch it perfectly after peaking it also doesn't mean it's going to die off. Plenty of reserves. But waiting till there's no life is extreme.
Pineapple destroys gluten hence the breakdown, much more so than water. Just keep up the rhythm. Feed, wait till peaked, feed again (as soon as you can). If it's getting stronger and peaking sooner then up the feeds. Switch to 1:2:2. Once that's peaking in 4-6 hours then try a bigger feed. 1:5:5 peaking overnight is a very good sign it's ready!
YIkes. I can see the cable news scroll now... "Local man charged with Starter Abuse. Film at 11p".
My Thinking was that I was helping the lil fellers get near some more food. Going to throw away my 12-hour routine and just watch it. So if it peaks in 8 hours or less go to 1:2:2? Then when it gets to 4-hour peak on that go to 1:5:5? That a good theory for me?
You are taking them to the food, or the food to them, so every bit of food is getting consumed. But you've also got a starter saturated with a healthy population of yeasts fighting for a depleted amount of food.
So you are right that when peaked it doesn't mean the food is all used up. There's life in it yet and it won't die off. And stirring it down is a good way to get more food to the yeasts. But continuing to do this till it rises no more before feeding again is waiting till it's completely exhausted and yeasts will be dying off. Doing it once is fine but not so much it's dying to be fed. At the same it goes to show you don't be afraid if you don't catch it when it's just peaked. If it peaked at 5am and you get up at 7am don't worry it's fine. There's a happy balance.
A 12 hour routine is fine. If you find it's peaking at 4-6 hours with no trouble it's a good sign it can do with a bigger feed. Just keep an eye on it and allow it to dictate to you if it can cope with a bigger feed. But don't drive yourself crazy. When it peaks try a 1:2:2 feed if that peaks relatively quickly and bubbles up strongly within your twice a day schedule then at the next feed try 1:3:3 etc. If it really peaks early and you have time for another feed then by all means do so. If it's eating you out of house and home and don't wish to feed it till the next scheduled feed then pop it in the fridge till it's time.
Follow your instinct. Read the starter!
This is neglected starter from the lower chambers of my fridge after 30 days or so ("in the cooler").
The same starter 27 hours and two feedings later...it tripled.
And no reprocussions from Amnesty International.
Best wishes. Dave
And mine springs back too. However our starters are long established and in cold storage.
Yikes. Free The Yeasts! Starter is talking to me again so I think I am good for the time being. Will let them grow and get stronger. Happy that the flip to water seems to have gone ok. Feed two hours ago and got some rise going on so I imagine if I stay out of the way and don't do something dumb it will all be fine.
So while I am waiting...let me ask, what is the result if you use pineapple juice in a starter from beginning to end? WIll it forever make bread taste as if it flew in from Hawaii? Will that smell/taste fade when you start using it to bake? I believe it was Mini who said something about using it all the way through. Just not sure of the effect.
The only purpose of an acidic liquide (like pineapple juice) is to create an environment that wards of the bad bacteria (Leuconostoc) that can invade a starter in it’s early stages.
The reason it is not used past the beginning stages is because once the starter starts to mature the LAB will not allow the bad bacteria to exist.
Don’t get caught up on the pineapple juice. Once it serves it’s purpose it is no longer needed or wanted.
IMO, it is better to be mindful of the temperature of your starter, especially when it is new. Warmth will do more to progress the culture than anything else, assuming it has carbs (flour).
Thanks, Danny. Mine has been at 73-78 degrees at all timea. Never lower than that. I was using warmed (88-90 degrees) juice for feeding but now just the bottled water at room temp. A little concerned because I am now at almost 4 hours and there is only a slight rise, much less as compared to prior days. I need to get another hobby so I stop watching the stuff. :)
Still moving along, WW starter is active but not there yet. Doubles in 12-16 hours or so. I stir it down at about 12 hours and it is very string-like, collapses easily like I am busting a bubble, then grows some more after collapsing from the stir.
My AP bread flour one is very lethargic. Rises very little, 1/4", maybe 1/2" which I estimate to be about 10-15%, in the same period and gets more liquidy around 12 hours.
Question, when a new starter loses its spongy look/texture, is it telling me to feed it now? I have been patient with both the last several days, feeding at 24 hours but wondering why the AP is way behind. Same 1:1:1 feedings, same water, same time.
And squeezing every inch out life out of the starter before feeding again? Waiting till the food has completely gone before reviving it! Why not feed when peaked?
Heres the way how I see it. You feed your starter, it has plenty of food to munch on, the yeasts are happy and can multiply. When peaked the yeasts have eaten their way through the food, multiplied, active, happy and giving off gas. It has risen. Once it's reached this stage they're at their most active. Doesn't necessarily mean there's zero food left but much depleted. Once it tips over this stage the starter begins to favour the bacteria, it starts to become more acidic, packed with yeasts fighting for little food etc. Sure it still has some food left and stirring it back down allows it to become more available and bubble up again but it's not like when first fed where a little starter had a lot of food. It's now a lot of starter has a little food.
So when peaked it's certainly not all over however it's a good time to feed again. If you don't catch it when peaked then just feed at the next opportunity. However continuously stirring it back down till all goes quiet before feeding again is not good practice for keeping your starter happy, healthy and strong. Starters that have gone far behind this stage after weeks in the fridge and need to be revived can be nurtured back to health. But you're trying to get a starter going from scratch and keep stressing it out.
Why not switch to a 1:2:2 feed and feed again when peaked each time. Right now it might be every 24 hours but keep up the feed when peaked and it should quicken. The starter turning to mush, having no strength and deflating to nothing when stirred means it's very fermented and either needs more food and/or more regular feedings not continuous stirring back down to see if we can get a third or fourth bubbling up.
Neither of them sloughs down at peak, no skid marks on either jar. They seem to stay there. I don't want to overfeed either. The WW seems fine and getting stronger, It is slightly less than doubled at 7 hours, yesterday it took 12. I will watch it closer and see when it stops rising. On the AP, I will try a feed at 12 hours as that seems to be when it goes a little softer.
Does the web-like structure indicate it is feeding time?
That's fine. Starters will have gluten in them. When that disappears it means it's very fermented and way past it's peak. WW and bread flour will differ on now they behave so don't compare one to the other. Sometimes wholegrain can hold its peak but when stirred you find the inside has collapsed. Depends on how dry it is as some WW will soak up more water than others. How much it's been fed can affect how much it'll rise etc.
12 hours is still slow but at least they're active. If you wish try a 1:2:2 feed and keep the discard in the fridge as back up. Give it all the time it needs.
Thanks Abe. I'm back to being a pain! Didn't take long.... :) The WW is doubling at 8 hrs which is much better than yesterday's 12. Will try a 1:2:2 when it peaks. I was expecting it to slough down and that's what I was looking for. Wrong. It just got webby, no fall. Will feed it when I see the rise halt. On my AP, I'll try what I said, an earlier feed to see what happens with that. It's only gone up about 1/4" in now 8 hours. BOth are organic flours but don't think that makes much of a difference.
This is not the time and a making a starter is not the place.
What you want is feed when peaked. Now your whole wheat starter sounds really good. If I were you I'd concentrate on just that one. You don't need two starters. Getting one going is enough. Two at the same time when doing it for the first time is too much.
Quit on the AP. At the next feed for the WW (when peaked) feed it 1:2:2 and keep the discard in the fridge. See how it reacts. Once your starter is fully fledged and you want an AP starter you can make one from the WW. Or turn your WW into AP. Why struggle on two starters when you can concentrate on one?
One starter can also build different types of levain.
Thanks. It's my glutton (gluten?) for punishment personality. Will do. I will say I am surprised to hear "no stir" because of all of the reading/videos tell me to stir down 3 times a day! I assume it is a "what works for you" type of thing. It's not working for me so...out the door with stirring.
Yes, when trying to get a young starter "off the ground" stirring really helps. It aerates the starter and makes food more available. A good idea in helping the little critters wake up. Like on those quiet days when nothing much is happening, instead of a feed give it a stir instead.
But if your starter needs a feed then why skip a feed giving it a stir instead? It's bubbled up and peaked. If your starter was active but sluggish I'd say stirring is good. If your starter is active and hungry for more! then feed again. Stirring back down continuously, not feeding, until it stops bubbling up is not the way.
WW is going ok on 1:2:2, almost doubled in 7 hours and still rising. Maybe a little faster than 1:1:1. AP went to the starter cemetery. What is a "normal" amount of starter to use with 1:2:2 and 1:5:5 when I get there? Grams, tablespoons, whatever measurement you use. I used 75g for the 1:2:2.
If you can get 1:2:2 within 4-6 hours then that's an excellent sign. Keep it up.
Totally up to you. You don't wish to build too much but you want a significant amount. Also think of how big your jar is as you wish to be able to judge it's rise. If it's a blob in the middle of the jar and not filling the bottom it'll be difficult to tell.
Is a lot. Within a few feeds you'll be building and discarding a fair bit. I would find a small jam jar and build about...
And when adjusting to a higher feed just reduce the starter amount. Just a guide!
Now you should be saving discard as back up plus using in other recipes. So keep it in the fridge after every feed, once it all goes well make yourself pancakes or waffles with it. Or any other recipe that has flour and water/liquid.
Got it. Thanks, Abe and thanks for putting up with me and helping out a newbie.
It's all working out in the end.
Don't get caught up with doubling or tripling etc. Although a good guide there are many factors that will effect how much it'll rise. For example two people using whole wheat and one starter rises a bit more than the other. Flour used and even location will dictate how much water it will absorb, one might be more liquid than the other, and the more liquidy starter doesn't rise as much as the other.
So yes, it's an indicator but don't judge your starter on that one aspect. When it comes to the each feed after peaking try a float test. If it floats then that's also a good indicator but then again not all starters float - but it'll be interesting to try anyway.
We'll aim for a weekend bake. If it carries on like this I see no harm in trying.
Circling back to sort of close out my thread, I hope! Thanks to Abes comments, messages from Mini and some phone calls with Danny I finally have a reasonable acting starter. Still don't understand why my first attempts did not go well but a combination of Ms. Wink's pineapple juice and a combo of WW and try flour did the trick. Right now it is doubling in 6 hours as shown in pics. However, I have used it twice to try 123NoKnead and big fails. Not rising much. Could be my starter needs to mature some more? Along the way I mixed up some organic apple and water to make yeast water. Would using that at the next feeding give it a boost in yeast?
If your starter leavens then your dough should too! If I were you drop all the fancy stuff and do away with the icing on the cake. Go for a straight forward no frills bread flour sourdough.
In a bowl mix the flour and salt.
Make a well in the flour.
Add 100g starter + water.
Slowly bring everything together by mixing all the ingredients well. At this stage you can slowly add in more water if too dry.
Knead for 8-10 minutes till full gluten formation.
Cover and ferment till dough is visibly aerated and billowy. About 4-6 hours but watch the dough and not the clock.
Shape and final proof till just under doubled. About 1.5-2 hours.
Bake.
Thanks, Abe, will try that next. Even with the fails I seem to learn something which is good.
Starter is always used just after it peaks, correct? Right before you feed it again..?
I followed the recipe shown by Abe exactly using the starter shown above. The initial dough looked promising. Kneaded for 10 minutes. Bulk proof took 6 hours, about double in size but farily sticky/gooey. I shaped, as best I could, into a ball and then placed it
in the banneton for final proof.. Pic shows what I have at 2 hours. A slightly bigger ball of goo. I am going to let it proof longer but don't have much hope of it doing anything else. Something is fundamentally wrong with how I am doing this or what I am using but I'll be darned if I can figure it out. 78 degrees, bottled water, air-tight bag during bulk, covered with a cloth during final.
It should not be sticky at all. Now this is interesting. I'm thinking you've misjudged the bulk ferment and have gone over. If I were you I'd quickly shape the dough into a loaf pan trying not to de-gas the dough, give it 40 minutes and bake.
Back to the drawing board. Don't give up!
Edit: What is your starter maintenance like?
Starter maintenance, it has been peeking at about 6 hours and more than doubled in volume. It is a 50/50 mix of Organic WW and Organic Rye. I am then building the bread dough with Organic Bread flour. Would that make a difference, changing flours to build the dough? Also, when I built the dough today I used starter that was maybe 1.5 hours after peek and fall. Would that make a difference? Do I have to catch it right at peek?
I'm not giving up but am going to take a sanity break for a few days because I have been doing something with this stuff every day for over a month. ! I have been able to build a nice hot tub with all of my discard though and well, that doesn't suck. :)
Starter maintenance, it has been peeking at about 6 hours and more than doubled in volume. It is a 50/50 mix of Organic WW and Organic Rye. I am then building the bread dough with Organic Bread flour. Would that make a difference, changing flours to build the dough? Also, when I built the dough today I used starter that was maybe 1.5 hours after peek and fall. Would that make a difference? Do I have to catch it right at peek?
I'm not giving up but am going to take a sanity break for a few days because I have been doing something with this stuff every day for over a month. ! I have been able to build a nice hot tub with all of my discard though and well, that doesn't suck. :)
I agree take a break for a few days but I advise when you pick it up again start a feeding regimen of 1:5:5. You should be able to get two feeds in a day at 12 hours apart. Once it is active and looking strong try again. Fed the night before it should be active and ready by morning. If you don't catch it perfectly on time don't worry it should still work. Try 10% rye instead of 50%. Will make the final dough less sticky.
OK, thanks, Abe. I should have mentioned that my feedings now are 1:1:1.
Overly acidic breaking down the gluten causing a sticky dough. Now your starter is active you want to think about increasing the feeds making it stronger and less acidic. Build up slowly to 1:5:5. For example your next feed can be 1:2:2. If it behaves then 1:3:3 etc. As usual allow the starter to dictate when it's ready for the next feed. Once you've built a strong starter then attempt the recipe again. However I'm thinking a levain build might be best. Let me know when you're ready and will advise.
Thanks again, Abe. And Mini and my phone-a-friend Dan.... :)
Don't give up. I admire you for your sheer persistence. Just finding the right balance and then you'll be baking in no time. Your starter is basically done it just needs some TLC. 1:1:1 is great for getting it started but using a lot of starter that's been maintained at 1:1:1 is just too acidic. Could have worked if you took a little off and built up to 100g with a healthy feed, taking that edge off the acidity, but live and learn. I think the issue is also information overload and an intensive post which is difficult to know where exactly your starter is at. So close!
in the dough?
I boiled some tap water and have had it sitting out for several days so I have been using that for feeding and in the 123 dough. I figured any chlorine would be long gone. Mistake? Doesn't seem to affect my starter at all....
EDIT - checked my notes, used all bottled water on the 123 dough, yesterday and today.
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/reference/water
I checked the ph of the bottled water I am using and it says it is 7.0. I haven't tested it though.
Just a final comment to close down this never-ending thread that I hoisted on everyone! Newbies. Go figure. I finally have some viable starter thanks to the combined efforts of Dan, Mini and Abe. A 1:5:5 WW starter that is doubling in 6-8 hours. Not the strongest or most mature but on its way. I'll take it! Oh, and Ms. Wink god bless her pineapple juice heart! I learned a bunch along the way which I think would have been missed had I bought some commercial already "there" starter. Will be getting to a first bake(s) shortly and will post my never-ending questions on them in new threads. Thanks to everyone. :)
Hi to all, no I did not jump off the Sourdough Wagon or give up and move over to baking brownies from a box! With the help of Mini, Danny, and others, I got my starter going. Now a year later, it is a lovely and mature jar of yeasties. I have been baking away with much help from my latest Question and Answer victim, Abe who was a HUGE help in getting me to where I am today which is actually baking some pretty good sourdough and starting to flesh out a little bit.
I've decided to get off Abe's back (for the most part that is, sorry Abe, no promises) and jump back in here with questions. I thought it might be a good idea to reintroduce myself and let everyone know that I'm alive and baking!