Hi all,
Due to everyone in England all of a sudden deciding they're a baker, I've had to change the flour for my starter due to availability. I've moved from a whole rye to wholemeal starter, gradually changing between the two over a number of feeds. Not ideal, but okay.
Since the changeover, my dough has totally changed its behaviour (expected), rising and falling a bit quicker than previously (even accounting for temperature), but also becoming hugely more extensible, to the point where I'm struggling for strength in the dough and a decent shape/volume to the final bread.
Formula here:
600g Shipton Mill White Bread Flour
450g Water
13g Salt
115g Active Starter (100%)
The only thing that has changed is the 57.5g of flour in the starter that was wholemeal rye and is now regular wholemeal.
Could that explain the wild difference in handling and strength I'm seeing, or have I just coincidentally hit a run of bad form at the one time I've actually got time to bake? Arg!
Thanks,
Ned
Ned, I would think just the opposite. Rye lacks the proper gluten so the starter should not be expected to bring any strength (gluten network) to the dough. Whole Meal, which I interpret Whole Wheat does bring gluten to the dough. I would expect the dough with the rye starter to be slightly more extensible.
Your percentage of prefermented flour is ~9%, which seems modest. I am assuming that you are using the same flour for your bread dough. Have you considered starting a second test starter using Shiptons flour instead of whole meal?
Are you careful to not overferment the levain?
Are your temps much warmer?
Please let us know your method and timing. That may help.
Dan
Good Idea about the 2nd starter. I'm so used to the turbocharged nature of whole rye that I'm cautious about going back to a white starter.
Levain was fed 1:2:2 just before midnight and I mixed at just after 9am.
House was 18°c or 64°F, so totally within the realms of my experience.
I follow a simple process based on the Champlain sourdough by Trevor Wilson but adjusted for our flour:
8.30 - Autolyse flour and water
9.15 - Add levain and salt, rubaud mix until incorporated and then slap and fold until feeling strong - 2 lots of 5mins. Into oiled bowl about 9.30
Stretch and fold at 10.00, 10.30, 11.10, 12.00, 13.00, and 14.00
15.00 - Pre-shape with dough scraper into tight-ish ball.
15.40 - Shape into boule by stitching into lined banneton and into the fridge
10.00 - Bake in cloche at 250°
10.25 - Lid off and temp down to 200°
10.50 - Oven off
The bread is a little overproofed, which is fine. What's bugging me is that at no point after the initial mix, did it feel strong enough to hold shape. It was this that made me push it too far in bulk trying to buy some strength with more S+Fs. I've done higher hydration bread that handled better.
Frustrating to be making duff loaves when flour's at a premium.
Thanks again Dan, but one clarification:
I'm using whole wheat bread flour in my starter, but 100% white for the unfermented flour in the recipe.
Unprobable, but could it be a result f a new bag of flour that was purchased around the time you changed from a rye to whole wheat starter?
You seem to have so much hands on experience with this bread, it is hard to believe the small change in your starter made that kind of a difference.
Dave’s suggestion to reduce the hydration should work, but it doesn’t explain the problem.
Could it be the Shipton flour?
I wish it were, but this issue has spanned multiple loaves and at least three bags of flour. Shipton Mill bread flour I've been using with good results for at least a year.
Yes, I think I'll go back to basics, reduce hydration first, but also dial back a little on the amount of levain.
Hopefully the next loaf, every stretch and fold, pre-shape and then final shape won't be accompanied by a "What the f---!?"
I've heard rumblings of a shop with whole rye nearby, so I'll investigate getting back to a rye starter, but I need to solve this mystery first!
Followed Dave's advice with success (see reply to his comment). Thanks for your help.
If the starter was the only thing that changed, and the dough that now uses it is too extensible/loose, the two things to experiment with (in order to compensate) would be:
a. lower hydration.
b. lower percent prefermented flour.
"rising and falling a bit quicker" is the clue for both a and b. I'm leaning towards b.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Dave,
I'm going to do a little both of a) and b) and take things back to basics.
I'll keep you posted how it turns out.
Dave, you nailed it.
Backed off hydration 4% and starter 2.5% and it worked like a charm. Plenty extendible with a short autolyse but gained strength nicely through the S+Fs.
Same method as before. Pre-shape six hours after mixing, shaped after seven, then baked after proofing for an hour.