Hello Fresh Loaf Community!
First, I apologize if the information I need has already been stated. I have searched and searched, but haven't found solution.
Starter History:
- Used this site's instructions to cultivate the starter approximately 6 months ago: Clever Carrot - Starter
- Maintained the starter as she suggests: 1:1:1 using AP flour (unbleached, not organic, either King Arthur or store brand - in my neck of the woods it's Raley's brand) and filtered, room temperature water.
- Fed with the same flour I started it with.
- Since I bake about once a week I keep the mother starter in the refrigerator and feed once a week, e.g. Sunday evening I remove from fridge, split, feed 1:1:1, and place immediately back into fridge.
- The starter was cultivated well as I was able to bake without problems until the last few months. Also, I split the starter and gave some to a friend who is baking with wonderful success (her starter triples in size within 4 hours - she is using the exact same protocol as I am).
Bread History:
- I have used these two recipes: Clever Carrot - Bread and Vanilla and Bean - Emilie's Everyday Sourdough
- I personally prefer the taste, crust, and crumb of Vanilla and Bean, my husband prefers Clever Carrot. I have had success with both, however I feel the Clever Carrot's crumb is a bit dense. I am not sure if that is because of my starter or the recipe itself.
- I usually get a great oven spring.
Starter Problems & Characteristics:
- If I remember right my starter would close to double when split, fed, and left on the kitchen counter to become active enough to bake up until a few months ago. This is not happening anymore. I have attached a picture of its rise after 13 hours.
- My kitchen fluctuates temperature from 65 degrees F at night to 70 degrees F during the day.
- I get the most rise (never doubling) the first or second feed after splitting from the refrigerated mother. If I continue feeding, the rise takes longer and longer until it doesn't rise at all.
- My starter will pass the float test, which is interesting considering it does not rise well, if at all. I have had difficulties knowing when the dough has finished bulk rise using this starter as the bulk has never doubled in volume. I have gotten the hand of the poke test, but it's a guessing game on when to proof.
- It usually smells sweet and fruity, sometimes smelling of vinegar a bit, but always pleasant. I have never had hooch.
- The consistency is a stiff batter at first, then turns more liquid with small and some large bubbles as it "rises."
- I can make sourdough discard recipes (waffles, pancakes, apple fritters, english muffins) without any issue.
Things I Have Tried and Responses:
- Converting to stiff: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2390/firm-starter-glezer-recipe (no response at all)
- Following bwraith's protcol: http://www.thefreshloaf.com//node/3064/maintaining-100-hydration-white-flour-starter (no response at all)
- Just keep feeding... 1:1:1 after rise then complete fall, and also trying after rise then waiting a few hours. Because it is so slow to rise, this can be anywhere from 20 - 50 hours.
- As I have mentioned above, the more I feed the less it rises until it stops completely. This happens no matter what ratios I use, I have tried them all! This also happens if I ignore starter behavior and just feed at the 8 or 12 hour mark, with all ratios. However, it is worse if I follow the clock and not the starter, or if I use a higher flour ratio.
- Warming the starter by using my oven with the light on.
- Switching types of flour: AP brands, bread flour, rye flour, whole wheat flour, combinations of all, etc.
- Every new thing I try I keep in a separate container (always glass), mark everything, check it every 6 hours or so, keep a feeding diary, and try the particular method for at least week, usually two.
- Response is pretty much always the same, either no rise at all, or at most a 50% rise within 20-24 hours.
Questions:
- Should I scrap this starter?
- Should I ignore the suggested rise and just use the float test? That is pretty much what I have been doing, but then I have issues knowing when bulk rise is done and it's ready to proof. I also get small, dense loaves.
- Is there anything I haven't tried to get the starter to rise?
- When trying to rehab the starter, do I follow starter behavior for feeding or the clock?
Thank you all in advance for your time and help!
just slower due to the cooler temps. Just add more time if you can't find a warm spot to ferment the starter and/or dough. You can even increase the amount of starter in the recipe this time of year. Watch out when the weather changes and things warm up! Meanwhile don't rush things in cooler temps. Just give the yeasties more time, lots of time. ...and maybe some warm water when feeding or making dough. Have you got a thermos or insulated box?
Always watch the dough not the clock.
You wrote, “Sunday evening I remove from fridge, split, feed 1:1:1, and place immediately back into fridge.”
The common procedure is to leave your freshly fed starter out n the counter for a few hours in order for the fermentation to begin. Normally a 25% or more rise before chilling in the fridge.
Do you think that the starter is getting weaker and weaker because it isn’t given enough time to begin fermentation?
”I get the most rise (never doubling) the first or second feed after splitting from the refrigerated mother. If I continue feeding, the rise takes longer and longer until it doesn't rise at all.”
If your starter isn’t allowed to mature before refreshing, it will get weaker and weaker. You may be in affect, in consciously diluting your starter's microbes.
Danny
oh yeah, wait for signs of life before chilling. Why do you chill if your room is so cool? Might want to leave some out and not chill it. See how long it takes to peak.
It's a relief to hear my starter may be okay.
I will take 1/2 of the mother out of the fridge and keep it on the counter. I want keep some reserved so I don't lose all of it if things go wrong. Hubby is also making me a proofing box as we speak for fermenting portions to bake with, and I will feed with warm water instead of room temp. I will wait until the mother portions rises at least 25% before chilling from now on.
For feeding: I will watch the starter and not the clock... Do you suggest feeding after rise and complete fall, or a few hours past peak, or somewhere in between?
That all sounds simple enough.
We settled on a light bulb clipped to the cabinet above the counter, temp is 80 degrees, starter is on a plate (instead of directly on the granite), tea towel folded over the starter jar, marking with a sharpie. 1/2 of the mother is on the counter now instead of the fridge.
I will keep you posted, fingers crossed!
Once the starter is active again, the next challenge will be length of bulk rise, lol.
... and certainly don't scrap this starter - it'll be fine.
Don't worry, mine also gets a bit 'sulky' sometimes too if I don't let it out of the fridge for a longer period every month or so - despite using it fairly regularly.
To rejuvenate, take a small quantity, say 10g - keeping the rest for safety, and feed this at something like 1:5:5 (i.e. add it to a mix of 50g tap water and 50g flour). Keep it at room temperature until it's doubled, then resume feeding as normal but keep it out of the fridge for a few days until it's really active again.
I don't think the source of flour or water matter greatly, although personally I like to chuck in a small proportion of stoneground wholewheat just to give it a bit more to go on and to introduce some new microbes. In my experience chlorination in tap water doesn't make much difference either.
I would probably advise keeping the starter out of the fridge for a good couple of hours after feeding will help to keep it healthy :)
By the way, a fun thing to do is to 'spy' on the secret life of your starter: feed it before you go to bed, put a clock or watch next to it and use your phone or iPad to take a time-lapse video through the night. On an iPhone, simply open up the camera app, swipe right until it shows 'time lapse mode' and start filming... remember to leave it plugged in though.
Hello all,
I have tried everything suggested and am getting the same results: rise about 25% after 1st and 2nd feedings then nothing. The added heat just makes it rise faster, but it stops rising completely after 1 or 2 feedings regardless of temp or ratio. I'm glad I kept a large portion of the mother in the fridge, otherwise all would be gone at this point.
The stiff starter doubles but does not rise 3-4 times as the blog suggests.
For now I am just feeding the stiff starter at room temp and the mother, letting it rise by 25% then putting it back in the fridge.
I will try again later, I'm having health issues (NOT the Corona virus) and can't dedicate time to it right now.
Thanks for all your feedback. Happy baking!
Hope you feel well enough to try again soon...
I'd say best to keep your starter out of the fridge altogether until you've got it on track. By all means leave the 'mother' in there if you want, but take a bit of discard and use that to keep a new starter in a jar on the counter top.
Also just a thought, but might be worth trying a fresh source of flour and/or water... normal tap water should generally be fine, but if it's really heavily chlorinated you might want to boil it first.
may I suggest a wet starter? Take 20 g of starter, dilute with 40 g of water and 10 g flour. It shouldn't rise but it may start producing bubbles around the edge of the starter. A wetter starter will ferment faster, hopefully. Cover with a disposable glove or deflated sandwich bag and wait for the glove/bag to inflate.
To feed, take that starter (70g) and add 30g flour and 50g water. Cover with the glove and wait. Stir by swirling the jar and do not chill the starter. Swirl several times a day. See if bubbles run up the sides of the starter when the glove starts to inflate. When the yeast aromas get stronger and plenty of gas is being made, get a bigger jar ( don't discard) and return to the 1:1:1 feedings. Leave the starter on the counter and do not discard. Instead remove what you need for a recipe and replace flour and water. Avoid the fridge for the next few weeks. cover with a gas catching cover so you know it is fermenting. ( it could be too thin to rise.)
Use twice the starter amount you would normally use and lower the amount of water in the dough recipe. See what happens.
Just wanted to post an update...
I have been maintaining both the mother, batter type starter, and a conversion to a stiff starter. The stiff starter seems more active so I decided to bake!
In the picture you can see two loaves. The one on the left was baked with the batter style while the one on the right was the stiff starter. The one on the left is about half the size and double the weight/density. The crumb difference is glaringly obvious and the crust on the right is crisp and light with many small bubbles in it. The texture of the crumb on the right is light and chewy. The taste is milder, however. I like tangy sourdough which the batter starter provided.
The stiff starter seems to rise faster and more consistently, even in my cold kitchen. I took down the heat lamp because it really didn't help much. I haven't played around with the batter, just keeping it in the fridge for now.