Last year I tried my hand at baking and after many failures decided to put the project aside for a little while. Decided to give it another try. Using Debra's pineapple approach to making a starter, and equipped with a B&T proof box this time, I was determined to succeed.
I successfully baked my first sourdough boule today. I am happy about everything but the crumb. I believe my starter is responsible, I was at day 8 since creation, but I will share my whole method and recipe in the hope you guys can pinpoint things and make suggestions.
Recipe is from SOURDOUGH by Lugg and Field.
For the leaven
40g mature starter
30g water at 30C
15g unbleached white organic flour (Milanaise)
15g fine wholegrain spelt flour
For the bread dough
150g wholegrain spelt flour
350g unbleached white organic flour
375g water at 30C
10g finely ground sea salt (my original post said 30g, but it was a typo. Recipe asks for 10g and I did use 10g)
100g leaven
1. I set the leaven and let mature in the proof box for 4 hours at 77F/25C
2. Autolysis: poured water that was at 30C in the mixing bowl, mixed with hands, then added my flour, mixed with hands, let it sit for 1h in the proof box
3. Pinched in the salt. Rested for 30 minutes.
4. S&F 3 times at 30 min interval, then 1 hour rest
5. First shaping on bench using my hand and a scraper. Sprinkled a little flour, gave it a 25 min rest.
6. Final shaping, transferred to basket
7. Basket proofing for 1.5 hour
8. Transferred to fridge for cold ferment for 24h
9. Preheated E&H Bread & potato cloche baker at 500F for 1h
10. Flip basket on bench, scored the dough, immediately dropped in hot bread cloche
11. Baked first 20min at 240C/465F with cloche covered, then 20 minutes at 230C/445F uncovered
I'm happy about the flavor, crust and shape, just the crumb that is way too dense.
My started seemed active. I keep it in my proof box at all times and I feed it twice a day. I always see it rise quite a bit a few hours after the feeding.
Any advice is sincerely appreciated. Thank you!
Hey Francis that’s a good looking first loaf!
I‘m pretty new here and by no means an expert but a couple things to check and a couple ideas:
Not sure if any of that is helpful, good luck on the next one!
agree about the salt - try 10g
Beautiful loaf :) I'd have been delighted with that as my first attempt - and you are obviously heading in absolutely the right direction.
You're so close with the crumb, and you'll get there very quickly I'm sure. As to the culprits, top of my head I can think of three possibles:
The good news is that your starter is working (chalk up another success to the pineapple juice solution!) but is still perhaps a little young so may not yet yet have developed the full range of microbes - you don't say what your feeding regime is for it, but perhaps include a proportion (say 25%) of organic stoneground wholemeal in the feed to introduce some more critters. Does it reliably double in size after you feed it? If you have an iPhone, use the time-lapse video mode to make yourself a little film of it: put a bit in a straight sided glass just after you've fed it, mark the level and put a ruler and wristwatch by the glass so you can see what goes on :-)
I'm not going to argue with Lugg & Field, but personally they are suggesting about 3x the amount of salt that I'd use in a 1kg loaf, which will really impede the activity of the starter. For the sake of discounting that factor, I'd suggest trying a loaf with 10g instead, keeping everything else the same.
The only time I've tried a refrigerated proof, my loaf came out with a very dense crumb much like yours - I suspect my fridge is too cold, and it just put everything into suspended animation... maybe try omitting the 24h cold ferment; OR basket proofing for much longer (e.g. 4-6 hrs) before refrigerating.
Please DO let us know how you get on!!
Francis, as others have stated, the salt is excessive! The GREAT NEWS is that your bread did exceptionally well in spite of that. Too much salt, and 30 grams is way too much, will tighten the gluten (prevent expansion) and hinder (restrict) the sourdough levain.
Here is the math, so you’ll know in the future.
If you’ll reduce the salt to the proper amount, you will be shocked how much better your bread will be. Your first SD bread is outstanding! You may never know how hard most of us worked to get to the place you started off at.
Great Bake!!
Danny
Wow thank you so much for your responses! It's energizing and makes me want to bake more.
I made a mistake in my original post, the recipe called for 10g of salt, and that is what I used. Must have been a late night typo.
My fridge is kept at 37F/3C. My house is kept at 66F/19C.
I feel like the crumb is a little dry and there aren't as many holes as I hoped.
To feed my starter I use a rye flour blend from KAF... it's pumpernicklet, medium rye and unbleached white flour mixed together. I felt like just unbleached white flour didn't give me much of a rise but my wife doesn't appreciate the pronounced sourdough flavor.
I will try cold proofing in the basement as opposed to the fridge and see if this helps with crumb aeration.
What do I need to get a dough that stays moist, like a ciabatta? Is it really just the water content?
Thank you again, I look forward to my second bake tomorrow :) I will update you!
This was the photo accompanying the recipe, and what I'm striving for :)
like those are a bit TOO much for me - I prefer something midway between that picture and your loaf :-)
Good luck with your second bake; proving it in the basement vs. the fridge sounds like a very sensible adjustment to make. Don't take the timings in the recipe too literally however - if you are proving in a "1 kilo" (2 pound) banneton then judge it by when the dough has reached the brim. You might want still to stick it in the fridge for 45min before turning it out by the way, to reduce spreading.
The perceived sourness in the taste by the way is AFAIK to do with the balance between the proportion of lactic acid to acetic acid produced by the microbes while they metabolise the starches in the main dough. More acetic acid gives a more pronounced 'sour' taste; and how much of it is produced depends on environment that the little critters find themselves in.
Overally therefore I tend to think that the 'sourness' of the loaf might depend more on what's in your main dough, and how you treat it, than on how you feed your starter.
WARNING this is a complex topic, but I'd recommend at least skimming the article by the inimitable Debra Wink on the subject of metabolic pathways. I can't pretend to understand it all myself, but it gave me a rough idea of what's going on.
The key question of course is what factors you can play with to adjust the sourness of the flavour. Debra goes on to talk about this in the comments to her post (and you can read LOTS more about it elsewhere on this site) but basically:
1) more time generally means more acid. But see note*
2) higher temperatures mean acids accumulate faster, with a higher ratio of lactic to acetic. Lower temperatures produce acids slower, but the percentage of acetic increases. See note*
* NOTE: The limiting factor for lactic acid is the buffering capacity (ash content) of the dough, while the limiting factor for acetic is availability of co-substrates (electron acceptors for you chemistry types).
3) Lactobacilli prefer wetter doughs. Yeast don't seem to mind low hydration (or salt or low pH) as much as bacteria.
4) Flour plays a big part---ash content, enzyme activity, etc. This is where the sugars and co-substrates come from for lean doughs, so the type matters. Whole grains or higher ash generally result in more acetic acid and more total acid.
5) Your results may vary, depending on what species of LAB you're growing in your starter.
6) It's never that simple with living things :-)
All of Debra's posts are always so intriguing! I love to read about the science of baking.
When you see the base of the bread lift off the bottom like it was baked in a pie pan that is a sign of an under proofed loaf. The denser crumb is also another indication of needing more time. Also if you want a more open crumb you should be gentle with the folds and shape with a light touch being careful not to degas the dough.
I spent all afternoon watching YT videos and my starter is definitely not active enough. It barely doubles over 6 hours, I've seen videos of starters tripling over shorter timespans.
I think I'm feeding mine too little at a time.
Give the poor thing a chance :-D
Typically the full range of microbes (especially the very helpful L.Sanfansiscencis) often don't appear on the scene for a couple of weeks or more - at which time things will probably pick up a bit.
Don't get SD envy by people's starters trebling in size - that's got more to do with the gluten content of the flour they are adding, than the health of their microbes. In any case, you don't want your dough puffing up too fast: the longer it takes, the more developed the flavour profile is going to become.
For what it's worth, my starter takes about 6 hours to double too ... and I don't get too many complaints about my bread ;-)
Francis, on this I can speak from experience, “It barely doubles over 6 hours”.
As far as I am aware, the height of rise and the time it takes to do so is a very good indicator of a starter’s activity. BUT, in that equation there are HUGE variables! *Temperature - Hydration - Feed*
In a nut shell, starters, like bread dough inflate because of the gas produced and rise because the gluten is developed and strong enough to contain that gas. For example, a 125% starter may produce huge amounts of gas that ultimately escape into the atmosphere because the super wet mixture can’t contain the gas.
Most of us have a tendency to judge our starters by the reports we read from other bakers. I know for sure, I do! BUT, when competing with other starter the race must be fair. What was their hydration, flour(s), and of utmost importance, the temperature. Without knowing the temperature of fermentation, we know very little about the starter’s capabilities, judged over time.
By the way - the ability to judge the maturity of your starter is very important. It is my understanding (from Debra Wink) that the optimum time to refresh your starter when maximum yeast is the goal is once the starter has peaked and just begun to recede. A great way to discern that time is to use a sharpie and mark the glass jar at the max rise level and note the time. (Marker ink is easily removed from glass when washing) As the starter nears maturity continue to mark the vessel. Once the starter no longer exceeds the previous mark and you notice a slight recession, it’s optimum time to refresh.
Image below is messy, but you’ll get the idea.
So much valuable information! Thank you. My toddlers got sick this week so I didn't get to bake again yesterday, hoping to do so tomorrow.
I noticed some recipes autolyse their flour and water before they add in their levain, whereas Lugg and Field suggest you mix it all at once.
Does adding the levain before or after autolysis have an effect on results?
An autolyse that includes the levain is often called a fermentolyse.
Adding the levain with the flour and water will begin the fermentation process, the bulk ferment. For extended autolyses this can be a major deal. I do it both ways..
OH! The levain also introduces acid to the mix, another thing to take into consideration. Some acid is a good thing, too much acidity can degrade the dough given enough time. But for short (30-60 min) autolyse it seems either way is fine. Sometimes the levain contains so much of the dough water that it is added to fully hydrate the dough.
Autolyse is used to help develop gluten and make the dough more extensible. In your recipe with spelt that may not be whats needed because spelt already has those traits and a long autolyse may make the dough too loose to hold it's structure.
Great catch, MT! A dough with that much spelt will be highly extensible without any autolyse at all. If you do autolyse this formula, keep it short.
Francis, my suggestion is: don't change anything about your formula or procedures/timings until you do another exact bake of this with your starter at day 14 (days from initial mix).
As they say, change just one thing at a time, and at day 14, your starter will be quite different, and, more importantly, much more stable. Some even say to assume your starter will not be stable until 14 days after it first doubled from a feeding.
once it matures and stablizes, then adjust/tweak to your heart's content.
Welcome to club TFL.
amen to that
I'm very thankful for all the advice. This is an exciting adventure.
So starter envy is a thing, huh?
So why am I... and I hesitate to write this, but why am I turned on by videos of starters rising?
Should I be setting the leaven after I fed my starter and it's at peak?
I usually feed my starter morning at 9AM and evenings at 6PM. When I measure 40g of starter in the morning to set my leaven for my bread I feed the rest of my starter at the same time.