I've spent a couple hours at least googling, looking for recipes or techniques for sourdough that AREN'T for the apparently holy grail of sourdough baking, the open crumb. It seems like a nice goal and all, but what I'm baking is sandwich bread for my family, 4-5 loaves a week, ideally, and what we want is bread with a nice, light crumb, but NO GAPING HOLES that let the condiments and filling drip all over the place.
I can't find anything. It's all about the open crumb all the time. Does anyone have a good recipe/technique that might get me that? Or pointers in the right direction?
Last year I was using Trevor Wilson's champlain sourdough, and it was *delicious* and everyone loved it, but... big holes. Since I started baking again this year right when the latest community bake started I've been using Kristen's recipe from that... just as many big holes. They're both delicious breads with great results, but not great for sandwiches.
I'd appreciate any help or advice I can get on this.
- Jay
Properly fermented dough produces bread that is like a foam of just about uniformly sized cells with no dense areas. If this is actually what you have, you can make the cell size small by firmly degassing the dough and rolling up tightly when shaping. However, often times bakers new to sourdough underferment their dough and leave it too long in proof obtaining bread with big holes interspersed with dense areas.
A picture would let people see what regime you are in and what a right path forward should be.
Below is my bread made this morning- a whole wheat sourdough made just like any ‘open crumb’ recipe except handled more firmly. It’s got fine cells and no dense spots. I assume this is what you’re after. The cells would tend to be a bit bigger if it wasn’t 100% whole wheat like this is.
Anyway- reach out with more description of what you are doing and pictures of your results and you’ll get lots of suggestions.
That's gorgeous and about exactly what I'm looking for. This was my last result, using the community bake recipe and following the instructions as best I could on a hectic day:
is...the crumb you are searching for is the standard. Be sure to bulk rise and maybe if it doublesin height with lots of big bubbles, knock it down firmly and make a second bulk rise and deflate the dough efficiently between bulk rises and before shaping. With sourdough you do have to watch the overall time line to not overproof the dough but a small even crumb in a well developed dough is indeed a beautiful thing. Wet doughs will just be faster at fermenting so you may have to shorten the final proofing time.
That's good to know, I'll try knocking it back tomorrow and see what happens.
More kneading = closer/finer crumb
Less kneading = more open/random crumb.
So, per Danny's note, drier dough with longer kneading time (10 minutes or more) should give you a fairly uniform crumb composed of small cells.
Paul
I'll give that a try, thank you!
I use the Extra-Tangy Sourdough Bread recipe from King Arthur Flour. I use my Ankarsrum mixer to do the kneading for about 10 minutes. Rather than free form loaves I shape for 9x5 loaf pans. As others have said, the tighter shaping results in an even lacy crumb perfect for sandwiches.
Terry
Wow, an entire cup of starter? Seems like a lot, but I might give it a try.
Jay, I am certainly no authority on evenly distributed thin walled cells (alveoli) of medium small size. Like you, I am not a fan of giant holes. The perfect crumb for me is HoneyComb Lace.
NOTE - This is my idea of great crumb. It seems that seeds and various other ingredients will affect the "laciness" of the crumb. In the case above, the bread is Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain. It uses ~32% seeds in a soaker. So, I guess in this case the formula, including add-ins did make a difference.
At this time, this is what I believe -
I have also noticed that when the dough forms a crust prematurely, thus hardening too early in the bake it doesn't fracture. The lack of ear will not allow expansion (oven spring), causing tighter and more uniform crumb. In this case the bread will also forfeit the ear. But this is not a good solution.
Here is my latest "hearing impaired" bread, but check out the crumb. See paragraph above for reasoning.
Above are my thoughts at the present. I am working to prove and disprove these ideas. Please keep us in the loop, and I'll do the same.
Danny
Yes! That's exactly the kind of crumb I'm looking for, Danny. Thanks so much for the input.
Thanks so much everyone for the input. I'll give it a shot with my next bake tomorrow/Wednesday and see what result I get!
A simple solution to your lovely problem could be to swap some of your wheat flour with rye flour. Perhaps 30% would be good. Improves taste as well.
I've already done that almost on autopilot, I like rye and spelt in most of my breads. Thanks for the suggestion!
Today's bake is much closer to what I would like! Though I don't have any crumb shots yet b/c my FIL and husband got to the first loaf before I did and kind of shredded it when they cut it. Hopefully the second has as nice a crumb, and I'll get some shots of it when I cut it tomorrow.
The exterior had a decent oven spring, though, and great bloom and ear. Loaf one:
And loaf two:
And here's the crumb on the second one:
The first was slightly better, but this is still much closer to what I want, with smaller holes that make it more suitable for sandwich bread, so thanks to everyone for the advice and I'll keep working on it.
Wow! Still some lovely holes :-)
Did you lower the hydration? How much?
Thanks!
I didn't change the hydration at all, actually, just my dough handling to start. I'm going to control for dough handling first and then, once I'm happy with that, I'll move on to changing the hydration.
I am sharing with you my Aunt Wanda's Sandwich Sourdough Bread recipe!
My Aunt Wanda was a red sealed chef and past on many of her recipes to me!
This has been a family favorite for years, though it has a small bit of instant yeast in it! Its soft and has amazing flavor! Your kids will love it!
Let me know what you think if you happen to make it!
Cheers!
Cindy!
Aunt Wanda’s Sandwich Style Sourdough Bread (Makes 2 loaves)
237 g tepid water
8 g active instant yeast
240 g (Stoned Wheat Starter)
28 g caster sugar ( berry sugar)
10 g sea salt
28 g melted, unsalted butter
2 medium eggs
660 g strong bakers’ flour
Add starter, yeast, sugar, salt, butter and eggs and mix with stand mixer for 6-10 min until well incorporated, then add flour and either stir until a shaggy, slightly sticky dough forms a ball or continue mixing with dough hook for an additional 9-10 minutes. You can also turn the dough out onto a floured work area and knead for 5-7 minutes to get the gluten started. You can pull a slight window-pane at this stage, but it will strengthen as the dough ferments and rests.
Place dough in a spritzed with water dough trough or large bowl and cover with plastic wrap, let rise for 1.5- 2 hrs. until doubled in bulk at room temperature. Punch down slightly divide in half, shape to a rough round and let rest at room temperature 15 minutes. Lightly pull on each side of round and wiggle to loaf shape. Place each loaf into a greased 9x5 loaf pan. Lightly pat each of the tops of dough to flatten slightly and fill pan. Cover with plastic wrap and rise at room temperature for 1.5 hrs.
Preheat oven to 400F. When dough is slightly domed above the lip of the loaf pan it’s ready to bake. Bake for 20 minutes, reduce temperature to 350F then bake for another 20 minutes until golden brown and taps hollow when touched.
Rest the loaves 5 minutes then remove them from pans. Let rest on wire rack to cool before you slice.
Thank you so much for sharing a family recipe! I'm not sure if I'll try it, because I really want to master doing this with just my starter, but your kindness is appreciated.
you will master a recipe and make it yours! Good luck and enjoy the precious moments with your family! When they are always nagging you to make more bread then you’ll know your the Master Bread-maker! ! Lol
cheers!
Oh, they already ate. Last fall, winter, and spring I had a baking rhythm going that rarely left us without fresh bread for more than a day and I've got to get back into it. The whining from my husband and FIL over waiting for the bread to cool is amusing, and my oldest wants me to teach her to bake sourdough when she's home for Thanksgiving then send her home with starter
Too funny! I have the same thing with my daughter! Even though I tell her to leave the bread alone until it cools she always when I am not looking has taken a huge hunk of it! She always says the same thing! "Well it was just staring at me and when the bread is hot I don't have to wait for the butter to melt!"! Classic excuse!
But oh well she could be eating unhealthy sweets, I'll deal with the whining anytime lol
Lol, very true. I usually bake 2 big loaves at a time, and I've been considering throwing in a third, smaller one, as a sacrificial victim to the ravening hordes to eat hot from the oven
Thank you!
Never thought of making a smaller loaf just for her to tear at!
I will do that!
Hi there, it seems like we are doing the same things for our families! High five! Nice sandwich bread is an essential for my family. I've been baking several loafs a week plus some dinner rolls (sometimes steamed rolls, Chinese style).
Here's the recipe I follow for making sandwich bread: Sourdough Pan Bread. This one is a 65% hydration bread, but I've tried up the hydration a little bit for making 35% whole wheat with cinnamon and raisin, with multiseeds, with hazelnut... And many more I can't remember. They always come out great. The crumb is even and airy and no big holes. I don't do a overnight ferment so it's noticeably tangy but not overly sour and my family loves it.
Thank you, I'll probably give this a try at some point, though might family really likes batards for sandwiches.