No Rise

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Anonymous on 4 Aug 2008 at 08:17

    My store was out of King Arthur so a substitute had to be made. I went with Gold Medal [ Harvest King ]   The first loaf i made had vary little rise it looked so bad i had to pray for it.

   The second loaf i made a little adjustment with the fear that the same thing would happen. I made the the dough a little on the wet side and added a TSP of yeast. It did look a little better with more rise but still far from what i use to making. We gave this loaf a burial with full military honors.

  The only thing that was changed in my recipe was the flour used. Could this be the culprit that commited this crime against my bread ? I know that all fours a not created equal or is this my punishment for not waiting a week till my store got in a new shipment of King Arthur ?

 

 

I really can't imagine the flour made the difference.  It's sounds like too dramatic a difference.  Are you positive you made no other changes?  What is your usual recipe?

Sorry I'm not able to be more helpful.  I'm sure someone here will have some useful ideas.

 Marni

SYLVIAH

I have been able to use mostly KA flour as it is the best flour available to me since I usually shop for my flours at local groceries.  Once I bought a bag of the GMbread flour and liked it very much...It made my bread far beyond what I had expected.  Sunday I purchased another bag of it happily.  Maybe, something changed making your bread...I wouldn't give up on the flour yet...good luck.

Sylvia

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ron on 4 Aug 2008 at 10:03

 I pull my starter out of the refrigerator the night befor let it get up to room temp around 68 degrees then start my sponge i add 1 cup flour this gives me two cups of sponge and cover then let set in the wash room till the next morning about 8 hours. The sponge looks great as always.  i cut the sponge in 1/2  1 cup for bread the other is saved for starter. 

 add 3 cups flour

1 tsp salt

2 tsp sugar

 I knead for a few minutes stretch an fold  NOTE- i don't like to over knead so i do little as possable. Then let dough rise in wash room for around 1 to 1 1/2 hr i just watch it next i knock it down knead a little more stretch an fold let rise around 40 min an place in oven then turn on heat to 350 degrees an bake about 45 min.

 This has always worked well for me its just this time i can't figure out whats wrong!

 Its the same starter i have used witch is really healthy with a nice nutty aroma and produces a pleasant sourdough taste.

 

Ron,

The one thing that caught my eye is that you mention room temperature is 68 degrees (presumably Fahrenheit).  My starter is very slow to rise at that temperature.  With room temps in the upper 70s, it thrives.  You might want to just watch the dough on the assumption that it will do a better job of telling you when it is ready than the clock will. 

It seems very unlikely that changing brands of flour would have that kind of effect on the dough rising, unless it is absorbing more moisture and resulting in a stiffer dough.  Even a bagel will rise, though, and bagel dough is much stiffer than most bread doughs.

Just a thought.

Paul

The general opinion is that, if you're kneading by hand, you can't overknead.  When I make my sponge, or primary batter, I don't add the salt until I'm actually mixing the bread the next day.

FWIW I have used Gold Medal Harvest King in place of KA and never had a problem.  I believe Gold Medal is comparable to KA.  One thing you mentioned: "I knock it down and knead it a little more".  Re: "knocking it down" , I have stopped doing that during bulk fermentation.  I simply lightly wet my work surface, wet my hands and scraper and gently scrape the dough out onto the work surface, gently spread it out preserving as much of the gas as possible, do a stretch and fold, turn it one quarter turn and do another stretch and fold and place it back into the container seam side down (I use a gallon plastic container (with lid) lightly sprayed with PAM at the beginning of bulk fermentation when the dough is first put into the container).

 I do 2 or 3 stretch and fold during bulk fermentation at 20-30 minute intervals (depending on the bread being made and specified bulk fermentation time) and this seems to give good gluten structure and preserve the gas in the dough.  Then after bulk fermentation I divide and shape, again, being careful not to over-handle the dough.  It sound like you may be overworking the dough during bulk fermentation.  With baguettes it's even more critical to preserve the gas, and the shaping has to be done in three stages so as not to lose the precious gas in the loaves. 

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Ron,

Here's a video that may help with the techique I mentioned.  The video is Richard Bertinet, a French baker who has a baking school in Bath England.  He's demonstating the method he uses, which is quite amazing.  In this video he is making an enriched sweet dough but the same principle applies to any dough.  If you haven't seen Mr. Bertinet "doing his thing" I think you will find it interesting, informative and helpful.  Here's a link:

http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Howard,

Thanks for linking that beautiful video. Amazing to watch the technique and the dough coming together.

My 2 favorite moments: 1) "That is what dough should look like", and 2) "No cheating." You gotta love a guy who considers using bench flour cheating!

Soundman (David)

Someone, whose name escapes me at the moment, posted it a while back and after watching it I was hooked.  I have watched it a half dozen times and have switched to his technique, and it's like finding El Dorado. 

Anyway, in the tradition of TFL I thought I would pass it on.  I agree, Mr. Bertinet is really something to watch, a true artist.  I would love to go take some of his classes in England...that happens right after I hit the Powerball Lottery :-)

Howard

Howard,

Thank you for the video link! Such clear explainations and demonstrations. I want to try that little star/flower shape he makes from a small round at the end of the video.

Thanks again,

Marni

Glad you enjoyed it. Mr. Bertinet's video he's pretty amazing, like watching a great magician at work.  Actually, I've been using his technique for a while and it truly works magic on dough with terrific results. 

I think it would be fun to try the star/flower shapes.  I'm guessing he uses scissors to get the shape.  If you decide to do the star/flowers, please post some pics and tell us how.

Happy baking,

Howard

Howard, Mr. Bertinet makes the star at the end of the video, using the end of his scraper. Looks as though he flattens the dough and cuts three times, then flips them inside out. I have seen them somewhere else and now it will drive me crazy until I remember where! A.

Thanks for the exlanation.  I'll take another closer look at the end of the video.  I think I'm going to try the sweet dough, the way he makes it and make some rolls.  Maybe I'll try a couple of stars with some of the dough when I make the rolls.

Hope all is well and that your sourdough starter back in good working order after the mix-up.

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Hi Howard, took me a few minutes to figure out what the mix-up was - yet another senior moment. Yes, thank you, the starter didn't seem to care about the "wrong" flour and bounced right back. Since then one of them ( I keep 2) became sullen so I took a tip from Susan and washed it and although I haven't baked with it yet it looks healthy. We are actually enjoying some hot weather so I am eating bread from the freezer instead of heating the house by baking. Let's see pictures if you try the stars, please? A.

 Paddy  I don't add anything to the sponge you were reading the recipe part i should have noted that

 I do have a mixer but their is just something about working with your hands plus for me i can feel the dough better. I am no expert at this by any means i have just found that over time doing it this way works best in my house.

 Thanks Howard for the link i will check it out  My store called yesterday an my KA is in so i will pick up some today an try again

Ron,
Switching from one flour to another might slow down the activity level of your starter but as others have said, room temp would also be a factor. I have found that from time to time my starter gets a case of the slows and needs some help. I won't pretend to understand the microbiology but I also use HK flour and I know it will produce a great starter. Here is what I suggest to boost the activity and refresh the culture in your starter.

  1. Mix 300 grams of All Purpose Harvest King or what ever with 30 grams whole wheat and 15 grams of whole rye in a small container. The amounts don't matter, just add 10% ww and 5% rye to the AP.
  2. For this schedule you need to leave the starter at room temp for the duration.
  3. Use the ratio of 1:3:4 with old starter being the 1, water being the 3, and flour mixture as the 4.
  4. Start with a small amount of starter, say 20 grams. Add to that 60 grams of room temp water. The temperature is important. Now, whisk or using a fork the water and old starter until you have a frothy mix.
  5. Add 80 grams of the flour mix and mix well, kneading to establish a well saturated mass.
  6. Cover the container and leave at room temp for 12 hours.
  7. Repeat the above 3 more times.
  8. At this point your starter should be very active. I don't recommend a routine feeding schedule using the flour mix above. It is just so active that it consumes the food so quickly you can quickly have a depleted starter if you miss even one feeding.
  9. Once your starter is running full speed, go back to 100% Harvest King or AP flour. It will be healthier if you keep it on the firm side and if refrigerated will work as is to inoculate your pre ferments.

This will work. We all have to give our starters a boost and clean them up now and then, especially if they spend a lot of time in the cooler.

Eric