Can an underactive starter cause a dough to overferment before rising?

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Phunkey Pharaoh on 28 Aug 2018 at 09:24

Hello everyone, I have been bulk fermenting doughs in the fridge lately and thankfully have been able to shape them much better. But fridge fermentation doesn't allow the dough to rise at all for me, so I haven't been developing an eye for properly fermented dough. Yesterday I bulk fermented some 80% hydration sourdough at room temperature with some mildly active starter which was taken out of the fridge around 9 hours earlier and fed twice. Even with light folds, the dough didn't look or feel bubbly after 3-4 hours at what I assume was 28 C. It had minimally risen and relaxed at the sides. I thought I'd just shape it and dumped it on a floured surface and start folding into a boule. It was incredibly difficult to shape and sticky, and no matter the amount of flour, it would stick to the work surface (glass) and my hands after a few seconds. It was defintely not alive and the gluten that had been made during the folds was disintegrated (it was fine during the fermentation folds). So my question is, what caused this dough to overferment without showing bubbles or rising that much? My guesses are that this could be what happens after a very long autolyse, or that the bacteria and not the yeast caused it to lose its structure. I appreciate any help from anyone here.

Phunkey, do you have any images? Also, tell us everything you can about the bake. The formula and instructions. You mentioned long autolyse, but I have no idea how long. I have a guess, but without more info, I could be way off.

The more info we get, the better able we are to help.

Danny

Hi Danny, sorry, I don't have any pictures because I didn't complete the bake. I've saved melted doughs before but felt especially exasperated at the time with this one since it still melted but it handn't risen. The formula was around 200g of starter, around 400g of white bread flour, 60g of whole wheat flour and around 340g of water and 13g of salt. I didn't autolyse per-se, I instead mixed in everything and waited around 30 minutes before kneading with the rubaud method for a few minutes. I then folded every 20 minutes for an hour and then twice every 30 minutes, then waited around 1.5-2 hours. During the final folds, it had good structure and would hold well into the envelope/burrito shape. After the two hours, it had relaxed as expected but didn't have any big bubbles or many bumps and had minimally risen (it was hard to tell if it had risen or just relaxed).

I bring up a long autolyse because due to how it didn't rise, the starter was probably minimally active so, as if the starter wasn't there, I called it a long 4 hour autolyse. The starter wasn't absoltely dead though, it had good bubbles on top when I mixed everything in. I look forward to hearing what you think Danny.

You mentioned your starter was not active. If it was very active how could you remove it from the frig and feed it twice in 9 hours? How did you get it to rise somquickly between feedings? It seems it would take a very active starter to be feed and mature twice in 9 hours from a very cold start.

When a dough expands and gets gassy the outer skin stretches (like a balloon would). The skin tightens and becomes less sticky. The dough also strengthens because it is inflated.

If the dough didn’t expand, it probably didn’t over proof. To over proof the yeast will have to be exhausted. They are unable to produce an more gas. From your description it sounds like the yeast never really produced much gas at all.

I think you suspect your starter/levain, and I tend to agree. 

Dan

It looks like I misunderstood something about starters in general. I thought a starter's activity is its stage during the maturation process after feeding. I thought that taking out a spoon full of starter from the fridge and feeding it with 3-4 times more flour and water and waiting till it just passes the peak then it's considered active. Whereas an hour after adding the flour and water, it would still not be active. From what I understand from your reply, starter activity is a characteristic between different starters, like flavor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I see, that part about the skin makes a ton of sense and explains my expereinces with doughs with commercial yeast and properly risen sourdoughs (before I started to refrigerate my starter and use it to make levains).

The thing about the overproofed dough idea, is that while I agree with you that the starter was amiss, I think it was because since it didn't bubble up, then the dough sat for too long somehow and disintegrated. We can rule out overproofing as you said, but the dough lost substantial structure between the last fold and two hours later. In the last fold it would hold its shape and minimally stick to my hand and the bowl, but after the two hours it was like it was after the second fold. This is why I feel like something in there broke down the gluten. My uneducated/inexperienced guess is that it's the work of the enzymes that work during autolyse. How do you feel about that guess?

Your understanding of a starter’s growth cycle is correct. The starter is fed, in due time it rises and at the very point where it starts to recede, it has produced it’s maximim yeast.

If your starter was inactive, it would not cycle feed to recede twice in 9 hours being fed 3 - 4 times its weight in flour, especailly starting from a very cold start.

Dan

UPDATE and retraction. I was not aware of the thiol problem. It sounds exactly like what you are experiencing. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18144/sourdough-loosing-elasticity-please-help#comment-121566 So many things to learn. 

I’ve never heard of the thiol problem before. I’m curious? From what I’ve read the solution is to feed the starter 3 times a day. How do you know whne the bad microbes have been defeated?

Also is Debra telling us to feed 1 to 1 @ 60% hydration (5:3:5) or is that a typo? She had me feeding 1:3:5 for healthy starter maintenance. 

Dan

be done equal flour to starter with variations in water.  The idea is to feed often and at peak without letting the starter get too ripe.  The starter will suddenly change for the better when the crisis is over.

Do run a site search on pesky thiol, I see I've managed to peg quite a few of the posts over the years so it is interesting to read the various descriptions and posts.  Then after you have a grip on what's happening, jump to Debra's post and follow the comments for a while.  

I looked through the thread and I don't think I faced the same problem. Debra mentions that thiol stops gluten from developing instead of disintegrating it. In my case after the initial stretches, the dough was tightening up and becoming strong and, I think, elastic. By the last stretch and fold before the 2 hour rise, I could lift it out of the bowl to fold it on itself. It turned problematic after the 2 hours. Maybe I don't understand something about the role of thiol that both of you understand. 

Perhaps there was too much bacterial activity and it sended messages to slow down the yeast, in that case it would taste very sour.  The levain and the dough would have a strong acid taste if lopsided toward bacteria.  Did you taste the dough when it seemed to flop?  Perhaps the fermentation was too long.  The flour amount is a little over doubled to the starter amount.  That should result in a quick rise and shorter fermenting times plus the warm ambient temps.

1) What was total fermenting time from mixing up the dough with the levain to when you found it "broken down?"  

2) Is it a wheat starter?

The funny thing with Thiol is that it progressively gets worse with each loaf.  

So I suggest making another loaf and being meticulous about taking notes.  Repeat the same recipe. Soak the whole wheat for a couple of hours in the water and salt before making up the dough so you can eliminate the bran as a problem.  (That would be one change) then continue trying to do everything the same.  Make sure you stand out water for the recipe at least a day in advance so any chlorine can dissipate.  A large open pitcher covered with a towel works great.  Or boil water and let it cool down before using ...for starters, builds and dough. 

Taste and then Feed the starter normally.  Taste again.  Note Details.  Let ferment to peak. Does it seem more active than usual?  

Meanwhile, Taste flour supply looking for rancid flour.  Be sure to spit out after tasting and rinse well before tasting the next flour. Allow a few minutes after spitting to see if any "aftertastes" devlope.

Thats about all I can think of for the moment.  Others will chime in too.  Change only one thing at a time with the bake to narrow problems down.  After the above bake and more information.  Something may stand out before the following bake.

 

Can TFL - CSI become a thing? It should become a thing for sure haha! 

I didn't taste the dough when it flopped (wouldn't I get sick from all the bacteria?). The total fermentation time from mixing to flopping was around 4 hours. The starter is a wheat starter. When should I add the soaked whole wheat relative to the autolyse. I use filtered water so chlorine won't be a problem. You must have a stomach of steel if you can taste starter and flour without getting sick! Thanks for your help and today's episode of TFL - CSI!

It's a good habit to get into... Anytime you taste raw flour, wet or dry, fermented or not, spit it out after tasting. Do not swallow, cannot recommend eating for any reason.  

Spitting is not ladylike but necessary and there is a lot of information there if your tongue is up to it.  

Tips: taste when alone and standing next to a sink.   

If the taster is a reg. smoker, it may be difficult to discern anything so skip it, tough luck.