Community Bake - Maurizio's Fifty-fifty Whole Wheat Sourdough - Everyone is Welcome

Profile picture for user DanAyo
DanAyo on 9 Jul 2018 at 12:08

It's that time again, this will be our second "Community Bake". The FIRST ONE was a great success! This time we are baking Maurizio's Fifty-fifty Whole Wheat Sourdough. Guess what? As luck would have, today Maurizio celebrates the 5th anniversary of his website, The Perfect Loaf.

Since most bakers are separated by many miles and even different countries, this “community bake” may be the best way to share information and learn together along the way. The idea, for those who want to participate, is that we document our progress with pictures and post. It is suggested that each participant start a new comment to document their progress. As more information and images are available for your bake you can edit that post and append it. We’ll share our success, and just as informative, our failures. During the process we can ask questions, compare results, or offer suggestions. Both expert and novice have a place here.

We plan to start our bake today. We will be following Maurizio's well documented instructions. They can be found here. https://www.theperfectloaf.com/fifty-fifty-whole-wheat-sourdough-bread/

I hope you choose to join in. The more the merrier. Even if you don’t come aboard now you can still post your bake and results at any time in the future. All threads are constantly monitored for recent activity. Be sure, someone will be available to assist you.

Some may prefer to bake small loaves. It seems 500 grams loaves are the choice of many. Below I setup the spreadsheet for 1050 grams of total dough. This would make (2) 500 gram loaves or divide the ingredients weights in half to make a single 500 gram loaf. NOTE - the total dough weight is slightly increased to account for loss. On most of these bakes I choose to omit the Diastatic Malt and they baked well. I know many don't have this ingredient in their kitchens.

Dan
Always remember this, "we learn more from our failures than we do from success".
   Post it all. The good, the bad, and (if you dare) the ugly. 

I decided to compare the following wheat berries in the 50/50. Each test used a single 50% Whole Wheat according to Maurizio’s instructions.

A few pieces were sliced from each of the 6 bakes and frozen in labeled bags.


My granddaughter sat in on the test. She has a discerning palate. 6 plates where number and my wife, Patsy placed a slice from each bag in random plates. The results were informative for me, but when it comes to taste all things are subjective.

As expected , the white grains where most mild and the reds most intense. Below are our thoughts on each grain. It surprised us both that our opinions were often very much in agreement.

From most preferred to least.

#1 Turkey Red - We both agreed that this grain was our favorite by a long shot. The smell stood out from the rest. Very pronounced. Sweet, with a hint of cinnamon. I thought it smelled a little like fine pipe tobacco (my best description). Slightly bitter crust, soft textured and a moderate chew. Tangy and over all very complex.

#2 Red Fife - This one had a sweet flavor. As you chewed the yogurt like flavor began to build in the back of the mouth. The more you chewed the better it got. It had a faint wheat smell and a medium texture, not chewy and not spongy. Actually the crust on all of the breads had the slightest bitterness. I really think the dark bake attributed to that.

#3 Hard Red Winter Wheat - We thought this bread had a very nice and noticeable acetic tang. Like the Red Fife, the flavor continued to build with each chew. It smelled of mild wheat and was medium dense. Side Note - notice the different layers of color in the crumb below. I think it may be because of the diastatic malt. I used the full 1% for this, the first bake, but omitted it completely for all of the rest. If you have a different experience, I'd like to hear from you.

The remaining 3 grains are all white. It seems we strongly prefer the more robust flavors of red wheat. For those that prefer a more mild flavor the bottom 3 may be more appealing. The closest to store bought white bread was definitely the White Sonora. It have a very clean flavor that was mild in all respects. The last rankings are difficult since we favor the Reds so much.

#4 Sonora White - We placed this at the top of the 3 whites since the flavor was so clean. For those preferring a mild sandwich type bread, this may be the ticket. It absorbed water well during the mix and produced a fairly strong dough similar to the Hard White Wheat. Key descriptive word is, mild.

#5 Hard White Wheat - Non-eventful (to those that like the strong flavor of Red Wheat), but it did have a light tang. Once again, a mild flavor, which can be a great thing for those looking to bake a 50% whole grain bread and not run off the average person :-))

#6 Soft White Wheat - It had a mild taste. Taylor thought is was slightly malty, which was nice. This whole grain does not absorb a lot of water. I had to reduce the water and also add additional flour during the mix. The dough was more slack than the others, but boy, did it spring in the oven? I am beginning to think that weaker gluten springs better. I imagine the weakness can work to a benefit. Not sure about this, but it is my present thought at this time. I think this is why Trevor uses such a long premix for his Champlain.

Everyone's taste are unique. It is possible that your choices would be just the opposite as our's. Neither of us are professional taste testers, but we know what we like. I hope you find something valuable in the review.

I want to thank Maurizio for sharing his formula, it seems that many participating in this bake are giving it rave reviews.

Danny

 

and what a beautiful selection of bread! I cannot taste it but I feel like eing in a sweet shop and wouldn't know which one to choose! I am also again amazed by the choice of flour and their beautiful names which all makes me want to try to bake with them...next we are shipping flours to each other for community bakes to swap flours!  Ha, Ha,    Kat

Those are all beautiful. I'm really looking forward to (some day in the probably far future) being able to bake such lovely bread. And also, I really love reading your detailed process posts, they're incredibly informative and helpful. 

Jay

and just bake, bake and bake and then eat , eat and eat and you will get there without a doubt and people on this forum are incredibly supportive! Kat

Since I love the flavor of Red Fife, I might like the Turkey Red even better. I did bake a 50% WW loaf with Red Fife once, and found that its flavor was really diluted by the 50% bread flour. My son liked that loaf quite a bit, but I really missed the full flavor of the Red Fife. But it's not a really strong flavor. 

I've been using White Sonora for blueberry muffins, where it works great. I don't think anyone would realize that they're made with whole wheat. It's good to know that it works well for bread, too.

I'm really tempted to try this community bake, even though I'm really committed to my 100% WW project. I do feel like I'd learn a lot by participating. I'm worried about the overnight proof in the fridge, though, because: 1) I don't want to develop much sourness, and 2) I'm already having enough trouble with overproofing, I'm focussing on observing the fermentation process. If I didn't proof in the fridge, would it still be in the spirit of the community bake?

that is my thinking! In fact, I think it is a great idea to observe the fermentation process and Vanessa Kimbell recommends ambient proofing to learn about the dough. I probably need to do more of this thinking about it..........Looking forward to your bake! Kat

Twelve hours in the fridge would be difficult for me. I wonder if I could let it go longer, and maybe re-form the loaf and do a short re-proof on the counter before baking. So many recipes call for 12 hours in the fridge, and that's just really difficult timing for me, besides the fact that I'm trying to learn what proper fermentation should look, smell, and feel like.

and it proofed overnight in the fridge.  I did not get a huge amount of rise in the fridge though even though it proofed 13 hours.  I think watch your ferment temperature and follow Maurizio and it should be fine.

Wish I could try all the lovely wheats you guys get! nothing like that available here that I know of.

Bake happy Jay, look forward to your loaf, just do what works best for you - that is the fun of this bake, everyone has their little quirks, adaptations etc but it work!!

Leslie

I'm still thinking about this. A lot of recipes call for 12 hours in the fridge, either during bulk or during proof. But 12 hours would be very difficult for me to manage, 18 would be much better. I would like to learn how to revise recipes for that. Since this one proofs in the fridge, and yours survived 13 hours just fine, I wonder if I could let it go 16-18 hours, re-form the loaf, and then bake? Would I need to let it rise a little at room temp after re-forming the loaf (lol, I'm starting to like the idea of loaf reform...  quite a few of my loaves could benefit from a bit of reform... )

Fran, IF your refrigerator is cold 18 hr should not be a problem. I’ve gone longer. But your frig needs to be very close to 38F. 41F is too warm in most cases. You can do a final d plaace in a basket. Cover with a plastic bag to keep humid.  At 38 you should see no indication of rise. And here’s the good part. You can bake it straight out of the refrigerator. Pre-heat your oven and when it is ready pull the dough, score it and bake. No need to let it warm up. This is the procedure many of us use. You will be surprised at the oven spring.

Have faith..l Give it a try.

Dan

NOTE: To test the refrigerator temperature, place a glass of water on the bottom shelf and leave for about 3 hours. Then read the temp of the water with a good thermometer. Proof the dough on the bottom shelf.

I know that things in the upper left back corner actually freeze sometimes, so I'll start with the bottom shelf, as you recommended. I was going to stick my room thermometer in the fridge, but I think your method will be better.

Getting good advice on how these recipes can be adjusted is an enormous help :-)

Thanks!

Fran

What a tremendous event - so many bakers, and so much success! Congratulations to everyone who participated and offered support. Surely, you've inspired others to test their skills, as well. Hope to see more entries come in.

Dan, you selected a terrific formula, one that works for nearly anyone. And your own bake and photos set the stage - just beautiful.

Cathy

But I must give credit where it is due. During the initial planning phase of the community bake, a number of bakers were contacted for their opinions. It was Kat that suggested the 50/50. Ain’t she a genious?

The Community Bakes are a community effort. I am not a Hillary (US politician) fan, but in this case, “it takes a village” <LOL>

Dan

and better not share some of my original ideas as people will never again join a community bake! ha, ha....But without your persistence and organisation it would not have come off the ground!.... .Kat

 

Hey Carole, this is (not was) a tremendous event. I hope to decide to join. Really, the concept of the community bake can prepetuate long into the future. Even if someone stumbles upon this post 5 years from now, they can still join the bake. If they publish their bake it will come up on the front page of the site. I think most (if not all) of the active posters monitor this page for new post. Surely someone will reply to the late come baker with help.

We are looking forward to a beautiful 50/50 with your name on it :-))

Dan

I am enjoying the heck out of this dough, it's been an absolute joy to work with and I can't wait to bake it in the morning. I have definitely done a remarkably poor job with the pre-shaping and shaping, but that's inexperience and the only thing that'll fix it is practice. I am hoping to get a pair of decent loaves out of this and will edit all my progress pictures into here in the morning. Thanks so much for organizing this. 

Okay, progress pics and commentary ahoy!

The two pictures below are the dough before and after the autolyse (and after the starter had been incorporated as well). 

The image below is after I finished mixing. I used the Rubaud method, b/c even with a coat of oil my dough stuck way too badly to my board (it hadn't been oiled in over 8 years, apparently. I really really liked that method, though. It was a bit hard on my shoulder, but the dough handled beautifully with just a super light coat of oil on my hands (thanks for the advice).  I maaaaybe should have kept going a bit longer here? I'm not good at telling just yet, but it's honestly been the easiest handling of my attempts so far.

Here we have after the last set of stretch and folds, and I was pretty happy with this too (though again, maybe I didn't develop  it enough? Guess knowing that will come with more practice.)

And then below is the preshape, which, again, handled so much better than anything else for me so far. Not sure how much is the dough vs. me starting to develop some minimal dough handling skill, but it was pretty satisfying. I'm sure I didn't get the boules even remotely tight enough, but it's still better than I've managed previously and I was pretty happy with them. (Though that one in the foreground of pic 2 was pretty misshapen and attempts to fix it were just failing and overhandling, so I left well enough alone.)

 

And then both doughs going into their improvised bannetons. I definitely screwed up here and am going to have to watch a lot more videos to work on this part, because I had a heck of a time lifting them into their bannetons and I definitely degased them a bit in the process. 

 

Here's the boule after it's (unfortunately very extended) stay in the fridge. (I had an autoimmune flare-up last night and the amount of benadryl I had to take to get it under control made me too much of a zombie to get things going at 7 this morning as planned, so I didn't get the oven preheated until almost 9:30). 

I thought I did a fairly decent job with the scoring, but as you'll see in the picture below this next one, instead of opening up nicely it just sort of stretched out flat. I got much more oven spring than I expected, though, after realizing how badly my scoring had gone. (And I was using a brand new razor for this bake, so it shouldn't have been dull, in case that could be a consideration.)

The scoring on the (rather misshapen) batard is doing the same, it's in the oven now, and I'd appreciate any advice on what I did wrong there. This isn't a problem I've had before and I"m not 100% positive if it's actually my scoring or possibly my dough handling. I'll add a pic of the finished batard when it comes out of the oven. But so far I'm super happy with this bake over all and hoping it tastes good b/c I'd love to do it again.

 And here's another example of how badly my scoring did. Also, despite putting foil on top of them both for the last 20 minutes or so, both loaves are much darker than my family prefers, so I might experiment with lowering the temperature in future if the taste is as good as I'm hoping. 

 I'm assuming the really weird rise (visible on the bottom right of the loaf below) has to do with my scoring not letting the loaf rise properly at the top? Very strange. Both loaves sound nice and hollow when tapped, really looking forward to slicing tonight, and then I'll put up crumb pics

And there's the crumb shot on the boule. It's a little bit dense and gummy, which I'm sure is part from handling but also probably part from me taking it out earlier than I should have b/c even with aluminum foil the crust was darkening more than we tend to like around here. The taste is amazing, though, and it's definitely going to get eaten. 

I'm definitely going to make this recipe again soon, I think the dough is excellent for me to work on my handling skills and hopefully I'll be able to really track my progress with it. Also, it's flat out delicious. 

You seem to be making improvements by leaps and bounds! The bread rose nicely and I’ll bet it will taste great.

Since your family likes lighter bread, give dabrownman's temps a try. I did a while back, and use them on a regular basis. 465F covered for 20 minutes and 10, maybe 15 minutes with the lid off using 425F (convection if available). The bread turns out with a nice soft crust and crumb. If you like soft, maybe store the bread on the counter in an opened plastic bag. Works for me.

I really enjoy watching you succeed. What will the future hold?

Dan

For the step of putting the shaped loaf into a banneton, slide that nice big dough knife (on the right side of one of your photos) under an edge of the dough and lift it up while letting it invert and fall into your free hand.  Quickly put the dough knife down and cradle the dough gently with both hands.  Then place the dough into the banneton, taking care not to drop it and also trying to keep the dough oriented (either seam side up or down and centered in the banneton).  If you sense that the dough is at all sticky, it is ok to lightly flour your hands for this step, but eventually you will not need to do so, especially if you incorporate a bench rest after the pre-shaping.

You have made great progress from the looks of your photos.  Keep at it.  Well done.

Yeah, I tried that, I'm just not that coordinated yet for managing something that large gracefully. I flipped it onto my hand and then it was basically sagging down off my hand until I managed to awkwardly drop the bench knife and get my other hand under it... and then I kind of dumped it into the banneton... and kind of dumped it out onto the parchment paper at the end too. Just going to be a matter of figuring out the technique. 

For getting the dough out of the banneton and onto a sheet of parchment paper, put the parchment on top of the banneton and hold it there with an open palm.  Then lift the banneton (keeping your parchment hand in place) and invert everything.  At this point your hand is under the parchment, which is now up against the dough, which is still somewhat in the banneton, but in the process of releasing.  Lower everything so that the back of your hand is on the countertop.  Holding some portion of the parchment in place, slide your underneath hand out.  Lightly lift the banneton to see whether any part is still sticking to the dough.  If it is, then gently tilt and lift the banneton to let the dough slowly unstick, and eventually you will feel the banneton completely released.  (One tip for the whole process is to check for stuck places before you start this process.  Tilt the banneton slightly so that you can check around the edges for stuck places.  If there are any, then let the dough come free from the banneton, but let that happen slowly so that there is no tearing of the surface.)

I think your dough looks well at the end of bulk...if you want to create more structure give coil folds a try instead of the S & Fs....

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bju7aazn27T/?hl=en&taken-by=trevorjaywilson

they give the dough a lovely structure and a bit more tension...and I think this also makes it easier to handle the dough.

What method are you using for the final shaping for the batard? I seem to see some bubbles under the surface so you seem to have some nice fermentation going on which is great...?

In my experience to be able to score well you need to get the balance between tension of the final shape right and then hit the right spot with the 2nd proof....do you know the temp in your fridge? I am now going to ask everyone this question as my fridge was too warm in the beginning without me realizing and I overproofed so many loaves...so good to check whether your fridge is on the cold side 38F /3C or warmer....

I really like your spirit and look forward to crumb photos! Kat

 

I've watched that video before, I think I'll give it another few viewings before my ext attempt and give it a try.

I shaped the batard per the instructions in the recipe, but I think I was too tentative about it and didn't get it rolled tight enough, and I probably did overproof given it got 3 hours longer in the fridge than I'd planned. I don't have a thermometer for my fridge, so I'm not sure about the temp, but it's definitely pretty cold, as things left in the bottom drawers can end up a bit frozen. 

Thanks for the suggestions!

I too tried to follow Maurizio’s shaping instructions but found it gave insufficient tension so patted the dough out a little and then did my usual routine. I was much happier then even though my loaf spread a bit during the bake.  

We have been eating this bread too, and I agree the flavour is great and I too will definitely be making this again.  I actually have no bitterness or sourness at all, it is plain outright yummy!!

Well done Jay

Leslie

I think I'm going to keep trying Maurizio's shaping instructions and just try to improve my technique with them. They sound like the same thing I've seen watching a couple of Trevor J. Wilson's videos and I think I just need to get more confident to achieve the result I want. We'll see though. 

I'm just ridiculously glad to have decided to give sourdough a try again after an almost 30 year hiatus, and to have found so many good recipes and such a great community for it. It's a great, cheap hobby with the wonderful bonus of getting delicious food out of it. I'm hoping to eventually replace all our storebought bread with homemade. 

I had to chuckle when I read about 'coil folds' and watched Trevor's video. I've been doing this for some time (I think I first saw Theresa Greenway at Northwest Sourdough do it), and didn't even know it was a thing with a name! When I teach beginner classes in artisan bread, I tell my students, "Pick up the dough like it's a sleeping ferret; let it droop down from your hands then put it back down with it's head and tail tucked under." :)

It is a great technique for smooth, wet dough and results in a lovely strong skin.

Like the sleeping ferret, Wendy! What a great way to describe the technique.

These crumb mmunity bakes have taught me a lot. I think it helps when everyone is on the same page working towards a common goal. Focus and determination are a powerful combination.

Dan

I’m going to remember your ferret :D

we had some, a lifetime ago ? they could be docile and playful, but boy did it hurt when they bit you.  Just as well bread doesn’t bite but your  comparison is spot on!

Leslie

as of now! If anyone ask I shall refer to this thread! That made me laugh...and I had that picture in my head of youngsters picking up cats grabbing them in the middle when picking up!  Kat

That does indeed look yummy; good enough to eat!

I don't think your scoring technique is an issue, particularly, though you will find you'll need to experiment with the depth and angle of the score to get the results you want. In this case, just looking at the crust and crumb, there might be a couple of other things going on:

  1. Fermentation / proofing - not sure, but given the detached 'roof' of the loaf that indicates a large bubble of gas migrated to the top of the dough. I can never remember whether that means the dough was under- or over-proofed. Others can chime in, or you can type "Flying roof" into the search box on the home page and get all kinds of information
  2. The crust indicates that perhaps the loaf was too close to an element in the oven, and/or the element came on after you put the dough in the oven (wet dough does cause a drop in temperature, which sometimes causes the top element to come on). The crust sealed over before the score could open. Try putting the loaf lower down, or lowering the oven temperature after you put the dough in, or (best) covering the loaf for the first part of the bake.

I haven't uploaded the picture yet, but my second loaf had a MUCH more detached roof than the first one, so whichever it means, over or under proofing, that was definitely an issue. There was a massive bubble under the top crust and the crumb below it was tight and gummy. I think you're right about the rack height, though, I think I forgot to lower it before baking. Thanks for the input!

Thank you to Dan for the wonderful idea of this community bake and Maurizio, from the perfect loaf, for the recipe here is my second attempt. Instead of 78% hydration (proceeded cautiously the first time) this is the original 86.4% hydration (I don't believe the malt is counted when calculating hydration in the original recipe, which places it at 87%, but it's flour so why not?) and with Birra Moretti Lager in place of the water. 

The Levain Build:

  • 17g starter (whole rye @ 70% hydration)
  • 15g whole wheat flour
  • 15g bread flour
  • 33g water

Dough Formula:

  • 220g whole wheat flour
  • 220g bread flour
  • 380g Birra Moretti (330g for autolyse + 50g final dough)
  • 5g whole rye flour (instead of malt and added to make things balance)
  • 10g salt
  • 62g levain

This is the highest hydration dough I've done to date. Decided on slap and folds and it worked a treat. The gluten was strong and the dough behaved so well. Added in the stretch and folds for good measure but really didn't need it. The recipe suggests to pre-shape with no flour. This was a surprise to me as I've always needed to use flour to prevent the dough from sticking. However not this time. Did a gentle letter fold one way and then the other, inside the bowl, and the dough released from the bowl immediately when turned out onto the bench. I've had more issues with lower hydration in the past. Tightened it up into a round and let it bench rest for 20 minutes. Held it shape very well. Lightly floured the top and inverted the dough. Shaped into a batard, placed in the banneton then into the fridge for 12 hours. 

Fully expecting the dough to spread out like a pancake, as with other really high hydration doughs in the past, this one held its shape and had great oven spring. Freestanding on a wire rack with tin foil as a base to-boot. 

Very happy with this recipe. Feel with slap and folds I can handle hydration that until now has been out of my depth. 

P.s. instead of making another post I have updated the two photos from my first bake. Here is my latest bake with more in depth detail of the whole process. Apologies to all comments below where they make sense for my previous bake. I just thought it'd be less confusing with multiple bakes and posts. 

glad you found the photos.  I don’t remember your original post, did you hold back water?  You got a great crumb though, really practical for sandwiches but I get the feeling you were aiming for a more open crumb?

Look forward to the next one

Leslie

The photos appeared on my phone. Apparently I have a backup of things between my tablet and phone. I'm really quite 21st century but just haven't realised it yet. I did hold back water as I was 'testing the waters' and didn't wish to dive into 86% hydration. But the dough handled so well I'm confident I can go higher. This is actually a crumb I like. Going higher hydration and holier is more for my own personal self esteem proving to myself I'm able to do so. For this 78% hydration loaf relied on handling for an open crumb rather than just hydration. 

Watch this space, Leslie. 

Abe, I have baked the 50/50 seven times now using a different whole wheat each time. The formula really handles the water well UNLESS you use a soft whole wheat (low protein). In that case the hydration is too high.

Maurizio sure produced a great formula. Nice bread, Abe.

Dan

I have just been looking through your very helpful and impressive test bakes. Each one a success. You've given me confidence as the whole wheat I have certainly is strong and I'm sure will handle all the water from the recipe. 

It really is such a lovely loaf and I thank you for this community bake Dan. 

Just had some toasted and dipped into avocado oil. 

I'm only a 10 minute walk away and it's nice to go at lunchtime to treat myself to some durum flour. There's loads of other stuff but it's all in Italian so other than the durum flour I'm reluctant to try much. shameful, I know! What do you suggest I buy?

It has similarities but they are different. Golden colour and fermenting times are similar but it does handle differently. I think durum flour feels stronger (although not necessarily as high in protein) and has more extensibility. It'll certainly feel more like regular wheat flour than kamut. So if you can handle kamut then don't be afraid of durum.

It just a little tricky to catch that perfect sweet spot for fermentation time. Not enough and the crumb/flavour will suffer. Won't be soft enough. Too much and it degrades quickly. In normal wheat I think there's a big enough range for timing to still get a good loaf. Durum is less forgiving IMO.

In Covent Garden area. Just a short walk into Soho. I too saw the Caputo white flour and while it says "soft 00 wheat flour" the protein is 13%. So just what is it that makes it soft? I know that the protein percentage doesn't mean its all gluten but can the protein percentage be on the high side while the gluten low?

I'm thinking of doing this recipe again not this weekend but the one after. Just in order to vary my bakes. It'll be an Altamura bread next. Should I try spelt in this recipe I'd drop the hydration to 65-70%. Only increase if I feel the dough needs it. Also I wouldn't do a very long autolyse as suggested for whole-wheat but keep to 20-30 minutes. And of course - watch the dough and not the clock.

I do like this recipe. Went with crystal rye malt as that was all I had. Not sure if it's diastatic as it's very close to red rye malt. Think it's more for colour and flavour when used in rye breads. Certainly made a nice addition.

Followed the recipe, but without the malt and less 10g of water.  Worked with slap and folds for about 5 minutes and this is what she looked like.

After the 5 modified S&Fs (coil folds) over the recommended timespan.  Can't say it rose much during that time, but my kitchen temp was closer to 72.  I left it for an extra 30 minutes.  I'd guess the rise was half again, but not doubled. 

Dough sat for another 30 minutes and looked like this before pouring out and dividing.

Divided

One loaf was worked to achieve tension on the surface.  The other was just folded gently and placed in the basket.

This was the folded loaf!  Scoring was nice.  Oven spring was spectacular.

The "tension" loaf was flatter, and less oven spring.

Still, the results are nothing to complain about.  It was the first time I'd tried using the slap and folds followed by the coil folding.

The flavor and texture are spectacular.  The crumb below is from the round, flatter loaf. 

What do you see that I can improve on?  What are the air tunnels telling me?  My thanks to Dan Ayo for walking me through this challenge and mentoring me along the sourdough path.  Hope to join you in the next challenge.

 

Laura, I have 2 SFSD fermenting now. I am definitely going to try folding the dough only and then placing in the banneton for one or both of the loaves. If you slice the other one soon, please post crumb shot.

The image of your dough that is rounded up and sitting in the glass bowl is a beaut!

Dan

I'll post as soon as it's sliced, Dan.  Yes, I love my heavy glass bowl. The bowl outlived my grandmother's mixer and was eventually passed down to me.  I've given it a serious work out for the last 30-40 years.

I’ll be shaping 2 SFSD in the morning. I am thinking about rounding up the dough and going straight into the basket with no final shape.

Thinking back, some of my best blooms came from very slack dough. They looked pitifully slack and yet, they bloomed like ballons. What’s with that?

Dan

The toast is superb, as I'm munching a slice right now.  I have been surprised at the soft and almost creamy texture.  There is no sour, but a full flavor taste.  I am truly sold on this recipe.

 

amazing and beautiful inside and out! Amazing lacy crumb! Also you have a beautiful ear on that batard. Did you retard in the fridge, just curious? I can't find really any area to improve...looks amazing! Kat

Yes, I tried to follow the directions as closely as possible.  It called for 10-11 hours in the fridge at 38 degrees.  Our fridge temp is lower, so I left them for 12 hours. 

 

I wanted to join in on the fun and I welcome everyone's feedback. This is my very first all leaven bake, I have used SD in the past, but I always cheated with some commercial yeast. As Dan already knows, I am terrible at following directions when it comes to making bread.

My approach was to replicate the 50/50 recipe using the same quantities, but making some substitutions for what I had in my pantry. I didn't have any malt and I only had soft white wheat. Below is my final recipe:

Leaven:

I double built the leaven using 25% bread flour, 25% soft white wheat, 50% water. The first feed was 50 g seed King Arthur SD strain, 50 g flour, 50 g water. I slept with the sourdough so I could get a feel for how quickly it rose throughout the night. My SD and I are expecting LAB children soon :-), the leaven took about 8 hours to double and then start collapsing. Then I fed it again 100 g flour and 100 g water. Once again it took about 8 hours to double. Upon doubling I mixed it into my autolyse.

Autolyse:

  • 466 g soft white wheat
  • 466 g bread flour
  • 805 g water

Mixed the autolyse shaggy. Then immediately put in fridge for 16 hours.

Final Mix:

  • Autolyse
  • 132 g leaven
  • 21 g table salt non-iodinized

I mixed everything together to combine the ingredients and then let the mix rest for 30 minutes before I worked on building gluten.

Then, I folded within my square plastic tub. Folded in 4 sessions. Each session lasted about 10 minutes with a 10 minute break in between. I would fold until the dough seemed to not be improving in elasticity, and then I would take a break. After the 4th session, I could make a good window pane.

Bulk Ferment:

5 to 10 folds every 30 minutes. After about 6 of these 30 minute intervals, the dough was starting to look quite bubbly, so I decided to preshape, bench rest, shape, and proof.

Final Proof:

Using my bench knife I split the dough into two and used the bench knife to roll each loaf into a taught ball. I used the same approach shown in the San Franscico Baking Institute Video. This worked really well. The dough was bouncy and fairly taught for being so extensible. Then I did a 10 minute bench rest. The dough didn't flatten at all during the 10 minutes, I was giddy that it was holding up so well.

And then... boom. Mistake 1: I messed them both up during shaping. The preshape dough had more tension than the final shaped dough. I got frustrated and gently oozed the dough in the bannetons.

I waited about 1 hour for the final proof to finish. I decided they were done using the finger poke. Basically, when the dough went from having a firm-ish poke, to having an airy poke, I decided they were ready.

Bake:

Baked both loaves in dutch ovens. I tried a suggestion from somebody to get the dough into the deep dutch ovens. I used parchment paper as a sling to lower the dough into the dutch oven. This worked ok, except that the parchment paper crinkled a bit in order to fit into the round dutch ovens, and this caused both loaves to be a bit misshapen.

Mistake 2: I should have read the baking instructions. I baked these loaves the same way I have baked my last loaf. 500 dF oven with dutch ovens also preheated. Cook dough at 500 dF for 10 minutes and then 460 dF for 20 minutes. Remove lids of dutch ovens after first 20 minutes. Then, measure the dough at the end of bake to ensure 208 dF internal temp. Well... if I had read Maurizio's instructions, I would have seen he cooked his loaves for much longer. Still. The final crumb was a bit chewy and slightly undercooked. Which I find a bit surprising since my instant read thermometer said the dough had a temp of 208 dF. I waited about 5 hours before cutting into the loaf.

Take Aways:

  • I hate baking dough in deep vessels. I love sliding bread into the oven using my pizza peel, it makes me feel like a pro. I am about to give up on using vessels.
  • I need to keep practicing my shaping skills and I need to do some shaping research.
  • I don't work my dough very hard. I wonder if I should. I think I need to do an experiment in which I back 2 identical loaves, but work one easy and work the other with a S&F regiment, and see which one comes out better.
  • I gotta figure out what happened with the undercooked crumb. Maybe I didn't insert the thermometer deep enough into the crumb.
  • My crumb is more dense than I would like. This might have a lot to do with my failures during shaping... or something else.

Final Flavor:

The bread tastes pretty good. Because it was slightly undercooked, the crust isn't as crispy as I would have liked. I think, that had I baked the bread for the proper amount of time, this bread would taste 40% better. Having said that, it still tasted pretty good.

Photos:

This 50/50 bake has reminded me that I have been pretty consistent in my inability to shape wet dough. Preshaping has gotten much easier now that I k ow about using the bench scraper to roll the dough into a nice ball. I struggle getting the right shape, and then I struggle again transferring the shaped dough into a banneton. Any suggestions, videos, etc are much appreciated. 

Never too late to the game. Lovely bakes! Love the crust and crumb. Looks delicious and a good write up. 

It's really down to practice. Also if the gluten isn't formed properly it can give one more trouble shaping than need be. So high hydration will always be more difficult than lower but if everything else is done fine then it should make it easier. 

You do not mention whether the countertop had any flour on it when you did your pre-shape and final shaping. For the pre-shaping, I eventually settled on dumping the dough onto an unfloured countertop and then lightly flouring the top surface of the dough.  (This procedure is similar to Chad Robertson's description in Tartine.)  Then I divide the dough and flip it over (floured side down) and then do a pre-shaping along the lines of the SFBI video (i.e., just enough to form some surface tension and create a boule shape).  After the bench rest, I again very lightly flour the surface and then use my dough scraper to flip the dough over before final shaping.  I again follow Robertson's method for forming the final boule shape (but there are many other completely fine ways to form a boule).

Then -- and this is the step that for me led to much better final shaping -- I find an unfloured portion of my countertop and transfer the boule to that spot.  Using my lightly floured hands, I put my pinkies together behind the boule and pull it steadily toward me until I feel the near edge grab a bit on the unfloured countertop and continue pulling another inch or two.  What that does is tighten the boule and increase by a bit the surface tension.  Rotating the boule as I pull toward me also tends to seal the seam on the bottom.  A few of these pulls is all that it takes to get a nicely formed boule.

As for getting the boule into the bannenton, see my comment above in this thread in response to Jay's identical question.

Happy baking.

"Floured Countertop?"

I don't flour for preshape and that has been working great, using the bench scraper to roll the dough around until I get a a modestly taught boule with zero fuss and minimal effort.

I have been flouring the counter for the final shaping.

"Then -- and this is the step that for me led to much better final shaping -- I find an unfloured portion of my countertop and transfer the boule to that spot.  Using my lightly floured hands, I put my pinkies together behind the boule and pull it steadily toward me until I feel the near edge grab a bit on the unfloured countertop and continue pulling another inch or two.  What that does is tighten the boule and increase by a bit the surface tension.  Rotating the boule as I pull toward me also tends to seal the seam on the bottom.  A few of these pulls is all that it takes to get a nicely formed boule."

I am having trouble visualizing this, but... if you made a video! :-)

"As for getting the boule into the bannenton, see my comment above in this thread in response to Jay's identical question."

I just went up the thread and read you suggestions. I have tried your method before. I can't tell if it is because my dough is poorly shaped or it is just how very extensible high hydration dough is, but, I still feel like I am being too rough on the dough during the transfer into and out of the banneton. I'll have to scour youtube for more videos and see if there are any that really resonate with me.

For your first 100% (no yeast) SD Levain this looks great! I can’t help much with shaping, still struggling with that myself.

You mentioned wet crumb. At 208F the bread should be fully cooked. I’m wondering if the SOFT White Wheat wasn’t the culprit. I ask because in one of my test bakes I used SWW and it didn’t absorb nearly as much liquid as the other grains I tested. I ended up having to reduce the water and adding more flour. Soft Wheat has less protein (gluten) than hard wheat. I remember reading that someone else on this community bake used SWW. Maybe it was Lazy Loafer, not sure.

 I have an idea that might work for you. Try putting your bread on the pre-heated stone and then covering it with the pre-heated deep portion of your cast iron cooker. In truth, a light weight stainless mixing bowl (pre-heated) would work better than cast iron for a cover. I think you already read THIS LINK explaining why I believe light weight material is better than heavy cast iron.

Dan

"For your first 100% (no yeast) SD Levain this looks great! I can’t help much with shaping, still struggling with that myself."

Thanks for the kind words :-)

"You mentioned wet crumb. At 208F the bread should be fully cooked."

Hrm... I know I measured 208 dF on both loaves. Maybe I measured 1 wrong, but measuring both wrong seems unlikely. I am confused. I read on another thread (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25262/internal-temps-bread-not-exactly-advanced) that someone else said you might need to go all the way up to 215 dF. Maybe my dough just needed a few more degrees.

"I have an idea that might work for you. Try putting your bread on the pre-heated stone and then covering it with the pre-heated deep portion of your cast iron cooker. In truth, a light weight stainless mixing bowl (pre-heated) would work better than cast iron for a cover. I think you already read THIS LINK explaining why I believe light weight material is better than heavy cast iron."

I like this idea a lot. I tried doing this once and I accidentally had to bowl touch the dough, but, other than that, it worked out fairly well. I think being careful about putting a bowl on top of a loaf is still much easier than lowering extensible dough into a deep vessel.

I saw your experiment with a steam machine. I'd happily pay $50 for some sort of steam injection system. I am even up for building something myself. We hatch our own chickens and turkeys and I made a homebrew incubator that had electrically controlled humidity and temperature. That build broke down some mental barriers for me, and, building something for the oven could be kind of fun. Like... maybe a tea kettle build to survive the high temps of the oven... could turn into a bomb if the outlet clogged, that would be bad :-)  I bet someone has already invented something like this... going to check amazon now...

Closest thing I could find... not very novel
https://www.amazon.com/Man-Law-BBQ-Products-MAN-CH1/dp/B00CX5MMK6/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1532318695&sr=8-19&keywords=oven+humidifier

More googling found this defunct website that uses a pressure cooker to produce stem:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170920191811/http://cookingwithcrack.com/bread/steam/index.html

And this thread which has some cool ideas:
https://community.fornobravo.com/forum/pizza-oven-design-and-installation/tools-tips-and-techniques/3142-steam-injection

The more I think about it, an easy way to do this is to take an vessel with a loosely sealed lid. Calculate how much how heavy the lid has to be to counteract the pressure of steam at your desired steam temperature. Add weight to the lid to match the steam pressure, then viola, once the water in the vessel reaches that temp, it hisses out steam until the vessel is emptied of its water. sounds crazy dangerous. Maybe I should just stick to lava rocks, rolled up towels and a water sprayer.

One of my favorite past times is over engineering things :-)

TXB, I’m not sure it is very easy to bake a bread to an internal temp of 215F. If it is possible, you would have to bake all of the water out of the bread. Because water boils @ 212F. Hopefully others will confirm or correct...

Also for the cover touching the side of your bread, I have dealt with that problem, too. Here is my solution, and it is easy and works great. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56763/tip-exact-positioning-roaster-cover-over-bread

Dan

Dan,

Good idea with regards to marking the stone. I am going to have to settle on a steaming plan. I feel like my emotions are being pulled in many directions. I hope I don't have to do a lengthy experiment to determine what works best for me. My kids miss me :-)

As for the baking temp... I think it must be like candy making, as the water starts to boil off, the temperature rise stalls, then, and then, at some point when the water is almost gone the temperature starts going up fast. There might be some benefits to a high temp crumb, like... the crumb might caramelize, which could have some interesting flavor benefits. You should be able to force all of the water out of a loaf and get past the boiling point, but, I'm not sure how you do that without charring the crust too much. My take away from that post and the temperature range is that I still had some room left to go to try and dry out my gummy crumb.

My father-in-law enjoys a bakery in St. Louis Missouri that supposedly bakes their bread for 24 hours at a low temp. And they produce a loaf that looks like typical artisan style on the crust, but the crumb is very interesting and full of flavor (kind of caramelized). He brought a loaf back to Texas for me and I enjoyed it immensely. 

Hey guys, we talked about this community bake ages ago and I suggested maybe one of Maurizio’s recipes with Leslie and Kat! Then summer kicked in and I’ve been AWOL! Now I’m going to have to bake and join the fun! So glad you decided to get this going Dan, and tha you’ve picked one of Maurizio’s breads. Great work everyone. Such a great thing to do. - community bake - we all learn from each other.

Congrats to all!

Hey Dan, a couple of questions. I think the answers are somewhere in this thread but I’ll ask anyways. I don’t have the diatastic malt. How much will not including it impact the flavor? I have white red fife as I prefer it to the whole grain red fife. Again, what are your thoughts on this? 

I’m so impressed with how everyone gets into this. And Dan, I loved your reviews swapping out the different flours and their taste and texture. That’s a lot of baking!

Again, great contributions everyone.

There are a few changes from the original recipe. Mainly, i sifted my home milled Selkirk flour and used the bran for part of the Levain, and I added yogurt and ground flax. Overall, I am very pleased with it. Hopefully, I’ll be just as happy once I see the crumb. Full write up is here!

I missed the community bake, so did a make-up this weekend with a twist.  Ru’s seeded sourdough loaves in recent times were such a delight that I decided to follow Ru’s method of stretching out/folding in mixed seeds (90g sunflower, sesame, flax and pumpkin soaked in boiling water for an hour, then drained) and resting as a parcel for the second of five stretch and folds suggested in Mauritzio’s recipe. 

A very satisfying outcome, and delicious to boot!  

 

Yes, I used 5g diastatic malt for a one-loaf bake, which translates to about 0.5% baker's percentage.  But Dan, the photograph was done with a flash so the result is probably a false representation of what it looks like in real life; nevertheless, it still delivered a lovely, tawny brown!

Thank you Leslie!

I am not so talented as one might think but I am very persistent in trying until I get the result. After reading a lot of stuff and trying to implement that I have learned a lot. Some breakthroughs just come unplanned as kind of unplanned activities.

My procedure is adapted to the properties of local flours which are not high in protein content. So a minor adjustments may be needed when using different flour.

Happy baking Leslie!

Joze 

I followed Maurizio’s instructions once again except this time I increased the number of slap and folds.  I thought about Mini’s suggestion re scoring but thought it would be ok to repeat the same pattern.  I did get miniscule ears - just!  Although this crumb is not quite as open as my first attempt, it is none the less a really nice crumb.

crumb shot 

love this bread, it will be bake again, that is for sure but maybe I will drop slap and folds back a little and maybe proof a little on the bench before retarding.

Leslie

 

just about to board our flight! now just have to survive the next 24 hours☹️  oh well, it will be great after that.

bake happy Kay

Leslie

Let me start by saying that I love Maurizio's recipes and this one is delicious, the crust is lovely, but I was not able to get that rise. This is my 2nd attempt - the first was a brick. This one would have been a knock out if it had the oven spring. I am not sure what went wrong.

Levain build - 50g.mature 100% starter; 25g Bread flour; 25g Red Fife White flour and 50g water @90 degrees

  • 233g White Red Fife
  • 122g Organic All Purpose
  • 111g Bread flour
  • 402 g water @ 90 deg. - Held back 100g 
  • 11 g sea salt
  • 66 g levain

I autolysed the flour and water for 2 hours, then added levain and 50g water and did stretch and folds for about 6-7 minutes, added the salt and another 15g water. Let it rest for 30 minutes then S & F - every 30 minutes - 5 sets. BF went on for another hour and a half - might have been too much. But I had a lot of nice bubbles but the dough was very hydrated. I think I should have only added 50g with the levain and no more.

Preshaping was sticky and it flattened out quite a bit. I managed to shape it and into the banneton and into the fridge for 12 hours. It came out of the banneton looking good - forgot to take a photo.

Baked @500 for 20 minutes with lid, 10 minutes without and then @450 for another 15 minutes. I don't bake with steam - haven't had good luck with it. 

30 minutes later, I had to cut into it and the taste is there, the crumb is good but no height. 

Help!

50.jpeg