I currently have my (75% hydration 15%WW) dough in its second hour of bulk ferment; it's been Rubaud-kneaded and given gentle S&Fs every half an hour, and it's currently nice and billowy. It is fast approaching that point where all hell usually breaks loose in my kitchen - the pre-shape.
I generally follow Trevor's methods of handling dough because he seems like he knows exactly what he is doing. I also reference Mac at SFBI for his shaping of high-hydration dough. The problem is that I don't have a bench scraper, nor do I have a wooden bench. I have a granite countertop on which I do all my shaping. My issue is mainly that my dough sticks to the counter the moment it hits the counter, and that removes any distinction between 'seam'/'top'/'bottom' acquired during the stretch & fold phase. When I try to pre-round the way they do it sticks to my hands as they try to push the dough.
I have been overcoming this by generally applying flour to my hands every single time I want to push/handle the dough, and it has worked well enough for me so far (I am sparing with the flour, as much as is possible). Pre-flouring the counter doesn't seem to help (perhaps I am too sparing with the flour) - the hydrated dough just eats up the dusting.
I face a similar problem post-rounding/bench-resting - by that point the underside of the dough has well and truly adhered itself to the counter, and I can't help but wince at all the degassing and tearing of the bottom of my loaf as I 'scrape' it from the bottom as best as I can and overturn it onto the portion of the counter right next to it (which has been dusted) for final shaping. At this point things get better since the stitching method helps very nicely with keeping the outside of the dough smooth and cohesive, and after I've done shaping I get to use cornflour which solves all my problems (but obviously cannot be used any sooner than the dough going into the proofing colander..)
So my question is - are there reasons why the pre-rounding technique is different from the final-shaping technique? Also, am I hard out of luck if I don't have a bench scraper, or is there something else I could do? I have tried using wet hands but that works for maybe the first two times I round the dough; on the third time it adheres to my hands again. That plus wet hands/floured bench seems to be a bit odd. Wet hands and a wet bench perhaps?
Thanks in advance, and hope all this description makes sense to someone!
Edit: just tried wet hands and wet bench, was even worse since it started hydrating the outside of the dough.. this time the dough also started sticking during the final shaping, requiring a coating of flour to coat the outside surfaces and make it manageable to work with. What am I doing wrong here?
What kind of flour are you using for bench flour?
What temp is the granite bench? If warm, perhaps spreading a thin damp towel on the work surface to cool it down might help. What is your relative humidity?
Sounds like pretty wet hands, perhaps too much water ...and are you only using finger tips and as little of your hands as possible?
Wet doughs are much easier with a bench scraper. Some kind of thin,flat wide edge.
I use regular AP flour or bread flour (whichever happens to be on hand) for bench flour - figure that if it's getting incorporated I shouldn't want to use anything else. The granite bench is usually somewhere around 20C, or whatever temperature my kitchen is - am in the UK so it's not overly warm, I don't think!
I don't see how I can keep myself to fingertips if one hand needs to push the boule across the surface, and the other has to push the opposite edge of the boule under/rotate it - the boule occasionally sticks to my fingers at that point as I try to pull them out from under the boule..
I too have a granite countertop. Everything you describe has occurred in my kitchen too, and a bench scraper (or some flat assisting tool) is essential. If you do not have a bench scraper, you will find it difficult to divide the dough if you ever decide to make more than one loaf at a time. If you do not want a bench scraper, then consider a larger tool that carpenters and flooring workers use to spread substances with a density and behavior similar to dough. In any event, get something to use other than trying to do this simply with your hands.
Secondly, the amount of time that your hands are in contact with the dough during the pre-shape should be minimal. As others have said in related TFL posts, if your hands are in contact for a full second, that is a long time. As the SFBI video demonstrates, you need only as much pre-shaping as it takes to develop a bit of surface tension. Stop then and there. That is one distinction between pre-shaping and final shaping. When it comes to the final shaping, there are multitudes of varying techniques. Since you also have granite, I will pass along that I use one portion of my countertop for the pre-shape and bench rest as well as the first steps of final shaping. I reserve another portion of the countertop for the last steps and keep it free from flour. That way, for a boule for example, I have a dry surface on which to drag the boule across to create a little more surface tension and seal the bottom.
Lastly, to get the dough into my bannetons, I generally slide the dough scraper underneath and flip the dough over and into my hand (and then quickly put the scraper down and use both hands to cradle the dough and place it gently into the banneton. Without the scraper, I would be challenged to get the dough into the banneton with doing some damage.
So ... get a tool to help you, and a dough scraper would be my first choice.
Please update us and keep asking. Happy baking.
Thanks for your reply - have just caved and bought a dough scraper; don't like one-trick ponies in my kitchen but I figure it's cheap and I seem to have little choice. I think the final steps of final shaping I have no issues with - it is the initial steps where I had issues the last bake; the tensioned side of the dough just stuck to the table when I was folding it! Is it just a question of having been too sparing with the flour, I wonder?
Taking a step back in the process, I need to comment that in my early stages of bread production I used much more flour during the pre-shape and final shaping than I now do. Eventually I concluded that what I perceived as a need for more flour was actually a consequence of poor gluten development during earlier steps in the process.
Watching several of Trevor Wilson's videos really helped me improve my intial mixing of dough. (And, yes, he surely does know what he is doing.) I use a 12-quart Cambro tub (see Forkish and FWSY) and first began with a combination of Forkish's pincer method and Chad Robertson's description of mixing in Tartine. Whatever I was doing did not give me enough gluten development, which would exhibit itself in dough that did not have enough strength and structure. That meant difficult to shape and lacking in a nice somewhat smooth surface. I could not create the surface tension that appeared in various online videos (for example, the SFBI video that you referenced with a link), and shaping and scoring were issues. What helped me was watching Trevor Wilson tug on the dough. Now I use a combination of Forkish's pincer and Wilson's tugging (my word, not his). I work the dough during the initial mixing until I feel it coming together and developing the strength that I sense will result in a dough that can be shaped, pulled across the countertop to create surface tension, hold its shape during proofing in a banneton, and be scored. It takes a few minutes of mixing to achieve this too.
As I baked more loaves, I also found myself using less flour in the shaping. My personal method (gathered again from several books and videos) is to tip the Cambro tub and allow the dough to fall gently onto the granite countertop, which is unfloured. I then sprinkle flour onto the exposed dough and divide it into two (or sometimes three) portions with my bench scraper. Using the scraper, I then flip each portion of dough over (as in the SFBI video). Now the floured side is down, and the sticky side is up. I lightly flour my hands, reach under a portion, and holding two corners lift them up and then onto the opposite corners so that the dough is effectively folded in half. Now all of the sticky part is inside, and the outside is lightly floured. Using my bench scraper, I pull the dough into a round (as in the SFBI video) and leave it for a bench rest.
When it comes time for the final shaping, I once more very lightly sprinkle some flour onto the top of each round and (using the bench scraper) flip the dough over. The outside that developed some surface tension during the pre-shape is now on the countertop (benefiting from the light flouring), and I proceed to pull the dough into final shape that I am after. For a boule I form the final shape and then gently lift the dough onto a clean unfloured part of the granite countertop, where I place my lightly floured hands behind the dough and pull it toward me. (This took some practice, but all of this took some practice.) Try to notice that two things occur simulteneously. The part of the dough closest to you grabs the countertop while the part farthest away slides with the pressure from your hands. That is what creates surface tension. You do not need a lot, but you do need some. When the dough is ready to be put into the banneton, I slide my bench scraper under the dough just enough to lift it, and it comes up and rolls over into one hand while my hand that held the scraper releases and joins in holding the dough, which I place gently into the banneton.
Note that not a lot of flour is neeeded, and I am using a granite countertop, not a wooden bench. Once again, review what you are doing during the various steps of producing bread and see whether something during an earlier stage (which for me was the inital mixing) might be in need of improvement rather than thinking that your problems stem primarily from the shaping steps.
Laslty, I apologize for being long-winded, but I wanted to walk through some of the things that occurred to me as potential sources of what you are describing. Hope some of it is helpful for you.
Ah, mate - longwindedness was exactly what I was looking for; this answer is everything I was hoping to get when I started this thread! Now I know what all the possible culprits are, and what I am doing wrong, or not doing wrong, and can go adjust my baking methods accordingly. Thank you so much!
Quick question - is it possible to over-develop the gluten?
The short answer is no, not if you are mixing by hand. If you are using an electric mixer, however, then it is possible to overwork the dough. (I should add that I have never done slap-and-folds, so perhaps someone else can comment on that method.)
Trevor Wilson's videos were crucial in giving me something to use as a visual reference for developing gluten. I tend to do about eight or ten minutes of steady working of the dough until I observe a change in its texture (some elasticity, some gluten strands, some initial smoothness, some tendency to pull loose bits from the floor and side of the Cambro tub and form a coherent mass). I then pause for three minutes or so to let the dough rest (and my arm rest too). Then I do another couple of minutes of mixing to confirm that the dough is ready to be left.
I find that photos help me understand what is going on.
Here is the dough after the autolyse.
Here is the dough with the salt, instant yeast, and levain on top.
Here is the dough after mixing.
Thanks for all your help - my shaping is now slowly coming up to scratch!
to baked loaf.