Hi Everyone, I'm new to bread making and I have been getting conflicting information regarding sourdough starters.
I am wondering if it is worthwhile to get a starter from a specific location (lets say San Francisco) and send it to where I am (SE Asia). Some bakers have told me yes, it matters, but some have also told me that after a few cycles of feeding and using the starter, all that would be living in it would be our local wild yeast, so I might as well just make my own starter.
Regarding pH, given our hot climate (during summer it reaches 90-95 F indoors), I have observed my poolish starter to go down to 3.2 - 3.6 pH. I have been playing around room temp fermenting and storing it in the fridge (lets say 3 hrs in room temp, then store it in the fridge at around 40 F overnight) and have noticed the pH to range from 4.2-4.5. What pH range produces a good creamy/milky taste? Or is this not related to pH?
Lastly, I was taught to maintain a starter 'mother' dough, feed it everyday, then when needed, mix it with some flour and water to create Levain which I leave to ferment for 3 hours, then dose at around 25% to my final dough. This 3-step procedure looks excessive to me and I was wondering if I can just add the poolish starter I maintain directly to my final dough. Will this have any adverse effects?
Sorry for the long, rambling questions everyone, but I have been wondering about these things for a few months now and hope you could shed some light.
thanks!
How frequently do you bake? That will affect your strategy options.
Your first question: will a starter's micro-biome stay true to its origins or "drift" as it is fed new flours in a new location? The only way to prove this (which is why people still talk about it) is to do a long-term sampling of the starter in its original location with original flours and the same with a portion that has been moved to a new location and fed with different flours. Comparing the micro-organisms and their DNA over a period of months or years should give a reasonable indication, although even then there is the potential for uncontrolled changes that would upset the experiment. The longer I live with my starter (begun in 2010 in South Africa and maintained in the U.S. since late 2011), the more I think the answer is "some of each". My impression is that a robust starter will maintain a dominant population of bacteria and yeasts that will exclude most invaders. And yet, it's hard to believe that repeated infusions of new bacteria and yeasts can go on for years with absolutely no effect, especially since many of the organisms will be the same species that are already thriving in the culture. With no way to delve into the details, I can't say with surety.
Your second question: What pH level produces a good creamy/milky taste? There are more factors involved than just pH. Those include temperature, type of flour, hydration, and probably others. Search here on TFL for some of Debra Wink's posts for more information about how starters behave, and why. You might also want to google the Detmolder process to see how different conditions are used by bakers to produce different effects.
Your third question: Can I just add the poolish starter I maintain directly to my final dough? Yes, you can. Best to do so if your starter has been fed recently enough that it is at peak activity, which is the point of the intermediate levain you wish to eliminate. The reason I'll never follow the starter-as-levain procedure again is because I forgot the step to reserve some of the levain for use as the mother starter. Realizing that your entire supply of starter is turning into bread in the oven is not a good time to remember that last step. So, as long as you maintain your mother starter separately, you should be alright.
Lastly, if you are only baking once or twice a week, consider refrigerating your starter between uses to cut down on the number of feedings it requires. It isn't necessary but it does cut down on your time and the amount of flour you use.
Paul
Hi Paul,
I am overseeing quite a bit of low priced consumer baking. I have found that my processes lack consistency. One thing to note is that where I live at, sour breads are not famous. Our small bake shop is actually the only one using a poolish derived preferment. Other shops would use a sponge and dough method or just straight, no time dough. We apply the preferment in small doses (less than 10%) since the people here don't like sour flavors, but like the aroma and flavor it gives.
On my 1st question- I have a friend who still keeps and uses a raisin derived starter from an artisan course he took some years back in the EU. I smelled his starter and still has some raisin smell (not sure if it is just mental though, since he told me beforehand where it came from). I will need to experiment on this.
2nd- I read Debra Wink's post and it is a wealth of information. I will read up on the Detmolder process.
3rd- Great! How do I detect peak activity in my starter? I've been playing around with my starter and have seen some crazy, unexpected stuff which I suspect comes from my uncontrolled environment. I suspect the hot climate where I am from requires me to do some fermenting at room temp then storing it in a fridge for use the next day, to control fermentation. I've seen my starter become really acidic between feedings and on other occasions, just rise extremely quickly and overflow from the bucket.
Thanks for all the help Paul!
Mark
Your first post mentioned a "poolish starter", which I take to mean a liquid starter having a hydration of 100% or greater. Poolish, as a term, refers to a yeasted preferment (aka sponge) rather than one made with wild yeast. A liquid starter will show some small degree of expansion but not much since the bubbles can escape so easily. At peak, the entire starter should be a mass of bubbles. It's easier to tell that the starter has peaked just after the peak. The surface will start to develop a wrinkled or dimpled appearance as the starter begins to subside from its maximum expansion.
You will start to get more consistent results from your starter if you can fashion an environment with consistent conditions and adhere to a consistent feeding schedule. The higher temperatures that you contend with definitely narrow your window of opportunity since the starter ferments so rapidly at those temperatures. Options include using chilled ingredients, keeping the starter in a cooler place (refrigerator / cooler / ice chest / other), dropping the starter's hydration level, etc.
Paul
oh, I guess I messed up the terminologies I used. I've been maintaining a 'mother' with wild yeast at 100% hydration (hence the poolish confusion, sorry about that).
I am building a room separate from the production area so temperatures should be more controlled. Once I control the temperature, feeding schedule, I will try to look for what you mentioned. As of the moment, all I have noticed is the the warmer the weather, the smaller & more numerous the bubbles, plus a lower pH.
I have tried making a preferment with commercial fresh yeast. I put 3% fresh yeast in a 100% hydrated mixture and let it sit for 12 hours and 18 hours. Both had really nice milky tastes and aromas. The one fermented for 18 hours ended up too soft and the one fermented for 12 hours was quite nice. The preferment added was only 10% so I don't think it was what caused the extreme softness. I suspect it is reacting with the small amount of emulsifier and/ or bread improver also present.