Hello everyone. I've seen a few posts concerning wicked-eating-protein, supersour-dissolving gluten, lazy never fermenting starters, but never had any problem with mine. Until now.
Starter looks, smells quite fine. I keep it at room temperature, feed it twice (or three) times a day (20% inoculation. 100% hydration. 100% organic hole rye). It grows predictably and doubles in size. Now.. when i try to make bread.. problems seem to appear. Bulk fermentation seems to go nicely. But when i put it in the pan or the banneton i notice the proofing seems to slow down and the dough starts to loose structure. Eventually it stops fermenting and the surface starts to crack. Gluten seems to break down. Naturally there's no oven spring and the bread is rather heavy.
When incorporate a tiny bit of commercial yeast, bread comes out perfect. So, the starter is evidently the problem here.
Any ideas? I've made a few new starters (beggining with yogurt and grapes - only with whole rye - incorporating yeasted fruit water) but eventually they go bad and i have the same problem all over again.
Thanks!
Gonzalo.
might be too long. How long do you bulk ferment and how long is your final proof? A detailed post on your method and ingredients would be helpful to figure out what is going on.
Hi Danni, thanks for your answer. However, I don't think that's the problem. I've been following the same method for years and didn't have any problems, until a few months ago. For instance, yesterday i made a light rye/spelt bread (200gr whole rye starter 100% hydration, 330gr water, 280gr bread flour, 100grs whole rye flour, 70gr whole spelt flour, 10gr salt.), half hour autolisis with starter. Add salt. Knead. Two hours bulk with one fold. Preshape. Rest. Then 5hs proof at room temperature (depending on the weather, can be less). Dough seemed allright when kneaded, preshaped and shaped. But once in the pan the dough started to loose shape and reaches to a point where it doesnt seem to grow any more (and i know it should grow bigger in the pan, because i've seem it happen many many times! it's not over proofed because i've done the same recipe, same quantities, same flour, same pan... but the dough weakens and i get a dense bread)
at room temperature sounds excessive depending on your room temperature. If it is in a very cool room, then you can get away with it but not in a warm room. Do you do the poke test to see if the dough is ready to bake? If you poke the dough and it spring back partially, it is ready to be baked. If it springs back completely and fairly quickly, it needs to proof longer. If the imprint stays with no spring back, then your loaf is overproofed and you need to get it in the oven immediately.
Of course, this is all guessing on my part since you have had success in the past with your method. Have you changed flour? Could the supplier have changed the protein content?
I'm in Argentina and it's winter down here. So my room temperature is quite cool. I'm quite familiar with the poking test and the flour is not the problem. I'm certain the starter is the issue here, but don't know how to solve it.
in the recipe. That would be my first step. Drop to 150g adding 25g each flour and water to the dough.
I agree that your times sound more like a 100% rye dough overproofing, not one under 50% rye. The dough shouldn't be breaking down this quickly. Bread flour is pretty tough stuff. Dough temps might be useful.
If protease is the problem, getting the salt into the dough along with the sd culture should help out.
If adding a pinch of yeast is helping, then perhaps the starter is too bacteria active and needs attention to boost yeast activity. (the red flag was the doubling comment, does it rise to peak before feedings?) Lets see if we can kick those lazy yeast butts into action (or suppress the bacteria.) But first... How are you feeding & using your culture? When do you decide to use it and feed it? The more specific, the better. Temps?
Mini
Hi Mini, thank you for trying to help me out. I've tried 30% 20% 15% starter, and same lame results.
I don´t know if protease is the problem; tried no autolisis, same nasty business. I´m thinking in getting a PHD in microbiology in order to solve this crazy starter mistery...
I believe you are right and some wicked bacteria is getting all over the place, making things rather anoying i must say... The question is : can we leave them out of the picture? and how!? Strange thing is the starter is quite active, bubbling very nicely. So it doesn´t appear ill... but it behaves like it.
Generally i inoculate 10% starter overnight (10 to 12hs), and in the morning i feed it 1:1:1 for 2.30hs/3.00hs (depending on temperature). I try to use a young leaven, right after flotaing test. Nights down here are cold this days, 10°C/12°C outdoors, but i leave the starter in a semi-warm spot in the kitchen, feed it with slightly warm water (28°C i guess..) and in the morning near a stove or the oven (some place between 20°C and 28°C i hope..)
I don´t mean to bore everybody, but why do ask if it rise to peak before feeding?. What are the concecuences in both cases? (I do let it rise to peak generally)
or skip the 1:1:1 feeding the following morning? Why not park the peaking starter in a cooler spot until mixing up the dough?
The reason for asking about peak is that even at the first peak, there is still plenty of food for the yeast. Overfeeding can create more problems than underfeeding a rye starter. Eliminating the bacteria is not a solution and the bacteria and yeast work together.
I am looking for patterns that might encourage rapid breakdown of gluten or could encourage an invasion from undesired bacteria. Bacteria can also raise dough (making me wonder if they are raising your starter) and then poop out when their numbers are high enough. Letting the starter culture peak and not feeding too soon encourages the good bacteria to increase their numbers to keep out invaders between feedings. Especially in winter, it is better to err on the side of underfeeding than overfeeding. Sounds like you let it peak out every so often which is good. If the bacteria numbers are too high then consequent feeding at peak is essential to correcting the problem and encouraging yeast.
Does your dough not only rip but turn to liquid as well? It could be thiol compounds but that usually hits before the dough can be shaped. I remember some older threads of tearing loaves.... I will go look for them... They would be associated with Debra Wink. See if this applies or sounds familiar. I can be corrected. :)
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18144/sourdough-loosing-elasticity-please-help#comment-121566
and am very interested in the replies to this post. Thanks!
has the dough doubled in this time? If yes, then perhaps the 5 hours final proof is too long. perhaps try baking sooner before it runs out of strength. I have never had this happen though so I am guessing.
leslieruf, thanks for answering. The dough hasn't doubled when preshape time with this light rye loaf. I divide it quite before that. It seems as the dough can't rise in the pan as it used to. The bastard gets to a point and then stays there.. degrading, acidifying... quite frustrating i must say.
Sounds like you might have a bit of protease enzyme(enzymes that digest proteins) activity going on in your starter.
Was it starved before the issue arose?
Bacteria can inject protease and digest the gluten, these organisms usually start to take over when your culture is starving.
The problem with these enzymes is they just get more and more active as proofing goes on.
I would suggest try an increased feeding regime and perhaps a flush of your starter.
NZBaked, that's one of my hipothesis, starter becoming proteolytic, but it exceeds my rather poor (non-existent maybe) microbiology knowledge. (I´ve read a lot of posts concerning this issue, and tried many alleged cures with no success)
With an old starter i use to have, the problem begun leaving it fermenting overnight only to realise next morning it had sinked and smelled rather strong. That happened a few times last summer (temperatures were extreme and clearly the leaven was way overfermented). I corrected the inoculation, used cool water, but it was too late for the poor bastard. Eventually i threw it away and started a new one.
What do you mean with a "flush"? Making a stiff starter, chop it and leave it in a bowl full of water and then refresh it? I've tried those baths allready.
Do you have any way of finding out?
I don´t, but seems an interesting thing to know. I will try to find a way. What do you thing a proper PH should be?