Pre-Ferment some of the flour and water with some of your starter. Then carry on as normal watching the dough and not the clock.
It won't be the same bread. It'll be a sourdough. So there is no steadfast rule as to how much to Pre-Ferment. Depending on what you're aiming for you'll choose a ratio and hydration that suits your taste and timings you want.
Bulk ferment till the dough is ready. You can go by sight - till doubled. Or by feel!
Dan, I am no expert, but the amount of starter is usually related to how sour you want the bread, and how long you plan for bulk ferment. If you want some sour development and a long ferment, I have gone as low as 5% of the total flour as starter. For a shorter time frame, I often see 20 to 30% of the total flour in the starter. It gets a little complicated the way I do it. I would run the math as follows - ( I do it in grams, which I find much easier than ounces ) if you have a yeast recipe which calls for flour of 454 grams and I am going with a 25% starter, that would be 113 g of starter. I then go back and determine how much of my starter is flour and how much water - if I was using 100% hydration starter, that means 56 g of flour, 56 g of water, so I in adjusting the commercial yeast recipe , I deduct that 56 g flour, and I get flour 398 g . I do the same deduction in calculating the water.
I like to do long 12 hours or more bulk ferments that are retarded on the bottom shelf of the refrigerator. I also like a strong sour taste to the sourdough. Would starting out with 25% starter sound right or would you recommend I lower the percentage of starter? 5% sounds very low to me. I want sour but I also want the bread to rise.
You could go low % starter (around 5%) and do a 12 hour bulk ferment at room temperature. Depending on how warm it is where you are you can increase or decrease the starter amount.
Or you could increase the starter amount (around 30-40%) and do most of the bulk ferment in the fridge.
How about (now this is just an idea which needs some trial and error) 30% stiff starter (50% hydration), with 10-20% wholegrain, left to mature till it peaks and just starts to flatten out (should smell really ripe and slightly alcoholic). Make up the dough and knead till full gluten formation. Give it some room temperature time till bubbles just begin to become apparent in the dough. Then refrigerate for 12 hours. Then carry on as normal.
That should give you a nice taste with a long bulk ferment time.
Thanks Lechem. I always considered the long bulk ferment in the refrigerator. But since I like sour sourdough I think the 5% and a 12 hour bulk ferment at room temperature might best suit me.
How I wished I could remember all of the knowledge that I've learned in 65 years of living. There are so many methods and techniques dealing with bread. And the problem is, I really like almost of the them. :<)
I'm no expert in aiming for a particular flavour and hitting it bang on. There are others here who can answer this in much more depth than me. What I can tell you is that some starters are just more tangy than others. It's just the way of nature. No two are the same. But that doesn't mean one can't bring out the best in the starter they have. I'm more of a trial and error guy, believe in experimenting with my starter and finding what produces the best flavour. If I were you I'd try both and see what you prefer!
I do happen to like the higher percentage lower hydration starter with retarding in the fridge. Very flavoursome. Not only tang (which is present but not over powering) but has a more complex flavour.
Lower percentage starter at 100% hydration and a longer bulk ferment seems to bring out more tang but a less complex flavour for my experience.
Both can be appreciated for what they are. I'm just on a lower hydration starter kick at the moment.
Pre-Ferment some of the flour and water with some of your starter. Then carry on as normal watching the dough and not the clock.
It won't be the same bread. It'll be a sourdough. So there is no steadfast rule as to how much to Pre-Ferment. Depending on what you're aiming for you'll choose a ratio and hydration that suits your taste and timings you want.
Bulk ferment till the dough is ready. You can go by sight - till doubled. Or by feel!
Pre-shape and bench rest till it relaxes.
Shape and final proof till ready.
What would be the starter to flour ratio?
Example; recipe calls for 30 oz flour, 24 oz water, 1 tsp salt, 1 1/2 tsp instant yeast.
I understand the hydration calculations with the starter and main ingredients. But how do I determine the amount of starter (in oz.) to use?
Dan, I am no expert, but the amount of starter is usually related to how sour you want the bread, and how long you plan for bulk ferment. If you want some sour development and a long ferment, I have gone as low as 5% of the total flour as starter. For a shorter time frame, I often see 20 to 30% of the total flour in the starter. It gets a little complicated the way I do it. I would run the math as follows - ( I do it in grams, which I find much easier than ounces ) if you have a yeast recipe which calls for flour of 454 grams and I am going with a 25% starter, that would be 113 g of starter. I then go back and determine how much of my starter is flour and how much water - if I was using 100% hydration starter, that means 56 g of flour, 56 g of water, so I in adjusting the commercial yeast recipe , I deduct that 56 g flour, and I get flour 398 g . I do the same deduction in calculating the water.
I like to do long 12 hours or more bulk ferments that are retarded on the bottom shelf of the refrigerator. I also like a strong sour taste to the sourdough. Would starting out with 25% starter sound right or would you recommend I lower the percentage of starter? 5% sounds very low to me. I want sour but I also want the bread to rise.
Any thoughts?
You could go low % starter (around 5%) and do a 12 hour bulk ferment at room temperature. Depending on how warm it is where you are you can increase or decrease the starter amount.
Or you could increase the starter amount (around 30-40%) and do most of the bulk ferment in the fridge.
How about (now this is just an idea which needs some trial and error) 30% stiff starter (50% hydration), with 10-20% wholegrain, left to mature till it peaks and just starts to flatten out (should smell really ripe and slightly alcoholic). Make up the dough and knead till full gluten formation. Give it some room temperature time till bubbles just begin to become apparent in the dough. Then refrigerate for 12 hours. Then carry on as normal.
That should give you a nice taste with a long bulk ferment time.
Thanks Lechem. I always considered the long bulk ferment in the refrigerator. But since I like sour sourdough I think the 5% and a 12 hour bulk ferment at room temperature might best suit me.
How I wished I could remember all of the knowledge that I've learned in 65 years of living. There are so many methods and techniques dealing with bread. And the problem is, I really like almost of the them. :<)
Thanks Lechem and Barry.
Lechem, I'm looking for very sour sourdough. Which method would you recommend. The 5% and room temp or 30 - 40% and cold retard?
I'm no expert in aiming for a particular flavour and hitting it bang on. There are others here who can answer this in much more depth than me. What I can tell you is that some starters are just more tangy than others. It's just the way of nature. No two are the same. But that doesn't mean one can't bring out the best in the starter they have. I'm more of a trial and error guy, believe in experimenting with my starter and finding what produces the best flavour. If I were you I'd try both and see what you prefer!
I do happen to like the higher percentage lower hydration starter with retarding in the fridge. Very flavoursome. Not only tang (which is present but not over powering) but has a more complex flavour.
Lower percentage starter at 100% hydration and a longer bulk ferment seems to bring out more tang but a less complex flavour for my experience.
Both can be appreciated for what they are. I'm just on a lower hydration starter kick at the moment.