Hi all! Great forum, I hope a 'help!' Post is okay for my first?
I'm firmly in the amateur camp of baking and have been spending a few weeks trying to prefect a wholemeal recipe. A lot of my early attempts were quite flat and VERY dense. Now I'm having the opposite problem - good rise and light texture but no crumb whatsoever and tastes a bit rubbery. I have attached a pic below. I'm really hoping that someone has a few opinions as I'm stumped as to what to try next.
Ingredient quantities: 500g wholemeal flour, 80% ish hydration, 7g dried yeast, 10g Salt.
Method.
1) 2 hr autolyse with flour and 350ml water
2) add yeast, salt and a bit more water. Mix and instead of kneading I used the slap and fold technique (it was reasonably wet at this stage)
3) bulk ferment for three hours. I stretched and folded in the bowl in 30 minute intervals for the first two hours.
4) final stretch and fold before transferring to a tin for the final prove. Proving time was approx 45 mins.
5) splash with water and bake for 30 mins. First ten mins were on 240c with ice cubes giving steam for oven spring. I then knocked it back to 180 for the final 20 mins.
6) I did not cut the bread until the following morning.
Because I wanted bigger holes I did not knock the dough back. I handled it very carefully and only used the stretch and fold method.
The bread looks great but overall was too springy and no crumb. When I cut it the bread board was completely clean!
Any advice would be great!
I think your bread looks great! I see a lovely looking wholegrain loaf with a great crumb. You've got to remember that a wholegrain loaf will never be the same as a bread flour loaf. That aside I think this is very well done.
To play around with texture and crumb you can incorporate a tangzhong.
Take 5% of the flour (25g in your recipe)
And 5x its weight from the water - 125g
Gently heat the flour and water on a low light, while stirring, until it gels (do not cook). Should only take a few minutes. Once it gels, take off the stove and let cool. Then you add this to the recipe. Which will now look like this...
475g whole wheat flour
275g water (your final hydration is 80% and that would be 400g in total after the autolyse plus extra when adding the yeast - so this 275g is minus the 125g in the tangzhong)
10g salt
7g yeast
All of the tangzhong
An autolyse with all the remainder flour will be difficult now but the tangzhong will give a nice soft crumb. Give a try and see what happens.
Then autolyse everything excluding salt, yeast and hold back 50g of water. Proceed as normal...
I do see a sunken part to the bread which might suggest a tad over proofed. For final proofing an all wholegrain dough doesn't have to double. Go for 80% instead.
I think there are a few terms and ideas to clarify. First of all, that is a great looking sandwich loaf! It didn't crumble when it was sliced? Fantastic! Great hydration and plenty of time to allow the branny bits to soak up moisture so it didn't rob the crumb later and cause crumbling.
First of all, you made this loaf in a tin so I am assuming you wanted a sandwich loaf with an even, well-hydrated, consistently small- holed crumb. Not to be simplistic but the crumb is the part of the loaf inside the crust. It is very desirable for a sandwich loaf to be sliced without crumbs forming. Crumbs are the little bits that result when a piece of the crumb dries out and rubs off when handled. In WW loaves, it usually indicated that the branny bits were not given the time to absorb enough moisture and is one of the most common questions/issues people ask when first making WW. It looks like you did a lot of research and really paid attention in order to bypass that issue. Good job!
So, if you were trying to achieve a great WW sandwich loaf-you did it!
If you wanted a big, holey, lean, crusty loaf-then you have to probably increase hydration, not use a tin, handle differently (fermentation time and temperature,kneading) and shape differently. It is more in technique than ingredients.
Good job and looking forward to more posts!
Disclaimer: I found when I start my journey on any learning curve that I have inconsistent knowledge of the process and vocabulary that comes with being self-taught. Each key word triggers another search and concept to learn. Many times I understand something very well but have a very incorrect understanding of some basic words and always appreciated it when someone took the time to explain these things to me without judgement. Please do NOT be offended if I answer posts with my experience in mind and it seems very basic. It is not a judgement and I am not talking down to anyone. Since we are not face-to-face,I like to establish definitions and terms so I know we at not talking at cross purposes.
Phew! Long-winded way to say intentions are good.
Thank you both for your comments which were very constructive! I haven't quite gotten the terminology down yet.
The bake I had in mind was a loaf that would be good for sandwiches as well as toasted in the morning. I used a loaf tin mainly because I upped the hydration (due to the whole wheat) and didn't think it would stay together if I tried to make a cob!
In terms of what I mean about the crumb - it is currently very spongy and quite coarse. It is not unpleasant but I would like to get it a bit softer inside. I think I'm trying to get a good loaf that is nice and risen but also more 'substantial' than the one I described above. I'm struggling a little to describe it!
If you want a softer crumb you may need to enrich it a bit. A tablespoon or so of a fat (oil,butter or lard), a little milk or egg.
Alternatively, the tangzhong method that Lechem described is perfect. It's purpose is to increase the starchy gel content of the crumb. You can also soften the crumb by adding boiled potato and potato water to the dough.
Make sure you still soak the wholemeal thoroughly, as before. You aren't far from where you want to be.
get a crumb like that! Clazar123 is right if you want the crumb you describe I would enrich it a it and add a bit more dough to the tin so it didn't proof as long to fill the tin anis ad make the crumb less open, Next thing you know you will be making wholemeal brioche:-) The only cob around here an old corn cob. We are only separated by our common language and a small pond it seem:-)
Well done and happy baking .
It is a beautiful looking loaf, but not quite what you were looking for. I echo the idea of enriching it a bit (some milk, maybe a bit of butter or oil). You can also try a loaf that uses a sponge and / or soaker to soften the bran a bit. Either or both of these will also add to the flavour. So, simply put, a sponge is a fairly wet (more water than flour by weight) mixture of some of the flour, some of the water and a bit of yeast. Mix it up and let it sit overnight till it's good and frothy and bubbly and has risen. The soaker tends to be more stiff (less liquid, more flour by weight) and has no yeast. It can be whole grain flour and milk or water. Again, let it sit overnight (in the fridge if you used milk). In the morning mix the two together with the rest of the ingredients (including possibly a bit more of the yeast) and let it rise, then 'punch down', shape and do the final proof until it domes just above the rim of the pan. Then pop it in the oven before it rises too much!
Thanks for the words of wisdom everybody. I think next time I use this recipe I will substitute a bit of strong white flour in as well as add some fat. I was amazed at how hydrated the mix was but I've been told that if baking in a tin you can use a wetter dough.
Lazy Loafer, are you describing the tassajara method? I got that book over the weekend and I'm going to try it this afternoon! It's a very nicely written book. When using the tassajara method which stage would you say is best for leaving in the fridge overnight? (I guess it is either the sponge stage or the fermentation stage?) I'm slowly realising that a good loaf of bread takes a long time, so if I can leave it in the fridge overnight at any stage that would be very useful! Another stupid question is if I leave it in the fridge does it need to be covered?
Thanks again!
Covered preferably inside a plastic bag otherwise it will dry out.
Not sure if it's considered the Tassajara method, but it seems to be quite common for whole grain breads. Check out this recipe here, which also used orange juice (I've used OJ in whole wheat buns to good effect; makes for nice flavour). Here is another recipe to check out. You can find a few of them if you google "whole wheat bread with soaker and sponge". Cook's Illustrated has one but you have to be a member to see it.
I wouldn't put either the sponge or the soaker in the fridge unless the soaker is made with milk. After you mix bread dough you can let it bulk ferment in the fridge, some of them for several days, before shaping and final proof. This generally improves both the flavour and the digestibility. You really do need to cover it though. The fridge will dry out anything pretty quickly.
Strong flour is a tool that is used far too often, in my opinion. It is easier to create a lofty (albeit chewier) loaf by adding extra gluten to a dough that already has adequate gluten that just needs time and basic skill to develop. It is a shortcut or workaround but it comes with the price of reducing the benefit of having a 100% wholemeal loaf or taste/texture in a white flour loaf. Strong flour will definitely make a taller loaf but it will be chewier (increased gluten content) and NOT be 100% wholegrain with all it's benefits. Wholemeal flour has plenty of gluten in it to achieve what you dscribed.
There are many ways to achieve a thorough soaking of the wholemeal flour. Sponge-preferment-biga-epoxy method-autolyze-retarding,etc,etc.Many different names but all the same idea. It is important to soak ALL the wholemeal and use very little benchflour while kneading.
I use natural levain (sourdough is a misnomer-my bread is not al all sour) and make a preferment first. Then I mix my 100% wholemeal dough to a rather wet consistency that I describe as sticky rather than tacky. It is thoroughly mixed/kneaded. Then I put it in a covered, oiled container overnight in the refrigerator. By morning it is now tacky rather than sticky and usually completely risen. If it needs to rise more, I do that before shaping, proofing and baking.
Tassaharja used a time honored method, as I recall, but I also think it did not soak ALL the wholemeal flour. Any wholemeal flour not soaked/sponged and added after will tend to make for a crumbly loaf.
The most important ingredient in breadmaking is patience and time. Don't change a whole lot on what you are doing with subsequent bakes or you will be backtracking and further from your goal. Keep everything the same and add the enrichment (milk or fat) to the next bake. See if that helps you get a more ideal loaf.