Over fermenting dough

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Mr Meowski on 21 May 2017 at 06:47

I've been having trouble with my sourdough. It has been over fermenting lately, but I was trying to understand how I can get this under control. Ideally I would like to shorten the fermentation or lower the temperature but both of these solutions are not an option, so that leaves me with the amount of starter I use. 

I do a full 24 hour ferment at 65 degrees, which is more out of scheduling necessity than anything else. 

So I used to do a 7.5% starter to flour ratio and it would over ferment so I cut it down to 3.75% and it still over fermented. 

It showed all the typical signs. It wouldn't hold a shape and if I did get it to shape it started to tear and get sweaty and wet an hour later. 

I guess this week I'll try 2% and see if it gets any better. 

Here is my current recipe. 

100% High glueten flour (ADM Kryol)

2% Salt

%69 hydration 

3.75% starter

Edit: I am mixing 100 pounds of flour at a time making 188 pounds of dough. My new kitchen does not have a walk in cooler so I lost my ability to use refrigeration. 

 

Your dough is spending way too long at room temperature.  When I do sourdough it is only out at room temperature for 3 hours after initial mixing and then in the fridge for 20 hours.  60-90 minutes for final shaping the next day depending on the room temperature before baking.

Hey AlanG thanks for taking the time to help me out. I agree, the way I am doing things is not ideal, but like I said above the way I am doing it now is out of necessity. The kitchen I just moved into does not have walk in coolers so that is why I'm forced to ferment at just a tad under room temp. I'm mixing and fermenting about 180 pounds (81 Kilos)  of dough at a time, and not having a walk in cooler anymore kind of sucks. So that is why I'm doing things they way I am right now. Thabks again for your help. 

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Lechem on 21 May 2017 at 07:44

'Do Nothing Bread' by Yohann Ferrant. 

It is a version of a no knead bread which is left a room temperature for 24 hours. Starter is 1%.

The amount of starter you were using is too high for 24 hours at room temperature. 

Otherwise you need to find another way such as incorporating fridge time or complete it in under 24 hours. 

Lechem, thanks for the help and sending me the Ferrant recipe. I can't wait to start researching It. Thanks for the advice on onky using 1% starter. I'll be giving that a try when when I mix my next batch of dough Monday. I suspect that will help things out a lot. Thanks again for your help lechem. 

One follow up question. Let's say hypothetically I autolyced some dough for 24 hours. Would the glueten ever start to break down in the absents of the starter. 

I guess my question is: Is the glueten breaking down more a function of time or the sourdough starter breaking it down. 

try three small  bowls of dough...  

  1. dough without sourdough culture, 
  2. dough with sourdough culture  1%
  3. dough with instant yeast  0.2%  (not sure of quantity, figured one fifth of one percent SD)

Cover and examine cut off pieces of dough while time goes on.  Take notes every 3 hours.

Yep gluten will break down but at different rates depending on temperature - salt restricts breakdown too - I do a 12 hour premix on advice of Trevor Wilson - mix flour water and salt stick in fridge in evening stick in fridge til bed and then take out to slowly cone to room temperature- add levain next morning and start - it works like a dream - 

I'm curious. When you add your starter after 12 houts how long do you you ferment with the starter. Also how long does it take to rise after your final shaPing. Thanks for your help mutants.  

i do float test and then start at around 11am. depending on flour i could be stretching anf folding and bulk fermenting until 7/7.30pm then pre-shape, rest and shape. Proof for approx 1.15- 1.30 and then into oven. remember its not about time its about dough temperature and then ambient temperature, flours used, etc. thats why ive found using a controlled envrinoment easiest. So:

premix at 9.30pm the night before

add levain at 11am

out of oven at 10.15pm....

 

13 - 14 hours in all.

suits me cause i work from home 

slowing fermentation with ice water or crushed ice in the dough to keep the mixing cool.

A mass of dough will generate heat while fermenting so separating into smaller containers and keeping them well ventilated is important perhaps with spacers between bins an additional room fan positioned near the dough and away from loose flour.

other ideas to slow fermentation?  just brainstorming here....

  • lower dough hydration,  
  • ferment part of the dough then mix fresh flour into it later
  • or separate the dough, part is a soaker, the other sourdough, combine later (epoxy method?) and shape
  • chill the flour
  • better insulate the kitchen, create dead air spaces on windows (seal in clear or reflective plastic, tape down edges)
  • keeping air conditioner filters clean so AC works properly.  
  • use less whole flours/less bran during warmer seasons, 

Terrific ideas. Now that you bring it up, when I stack my Cambro containers I can tell that they generate more heat. It's like a run away train. good idea. I'll have to make a spacer for them when I stack them.  

I've been having good sucsess using 1-1.5% starter and incorporating a lot of everyone's suggestions.

I'm going to experiment with doing my final shaping in the pans and letting the dough slowly rise over 24 hours. I wonder if it will work. 

Im just trying to find the perfect way to do things to minimize my kitchen rental time at the commissary I use.