i have been making bread for a while, mostly sourdough and i have never been able to achieve the window pane test. it does not matter how much i kneed or not (mechanical or hand). I don't know how to fix it. I've had some good breads but never passed the test... thoughts? Ideas? tricks?
thanks!
If they have good crumb structure and are tasty, that's what matters.
The window pane is an indication of gluten development. It is a way of judging how developed the gluten is. It is not an end in itself. Being able to demonstrate a gluten window requires some manual technique. It is neither trivially easy to do nor terribly difficult. You have to take a piece of dough about the size of a golf ball and gently stretch it in all directions. Think of it as forming a micro-pizza. It the gluten is well-developed, you should be able to stretch the dough thin enough without tearing that you can see light through it.
A gluten window is a more or less thing. A fully developed window is next to impossible to achieve with hand mixing, IMO. Anyway, by time your mixer had gotten the gluten that developed, you have oxidized the carotenoids in the wheat, and the bread won't taste as good, unless you add a bunch of fat, sugar, eggs or other stuff.
Hope this helps.
David
thanks !
i use a sprouted white all purpose flour. i have just started adding vital wheat gluten to it. i knead until i feel the dough change and become nice and soft, pliable. when it gets to that point i take a corner and try to stretch it out but it just eventually just rips, but the texture feels right.
i just watched Peter Reinhart make a window pame out of sprouted dough. Let me tell you, it was nothing like the window panes of regular flours. His tore and I didn't see light either
Sprouted flours behave very differently.
If you want to check it out yourself, go to craftsy.com and check out his ancient and sprouted grains course. You can even ask him question.
And it bounces straight back up then it's done. Just another way to tell if gluten formation is done. Also take into consideration what flour you're using. Are you using strong bread flour or something weaker?
it bounces eventually, no idea if I'm using strong or weak flour.
A windowpane can be difficult to pull on a high gluten but drier dough. It would be interesting to know the hydration of your bread. Do you have a recipe or do you make bread by feel? Try adding more liquid(to the original recipe without the wheat gluten) and see how the dough behaves. It might be a delicious experiment.
Addendum meant for information and NOT a thread hijack.:
I know since time immemorial that we talk of "developing the gluten" by kneading and mixing. IMO, that is incorrect. When water/liquid is added to dough, the gluten strands will develop pretty much on their own. However, the gelatinous starch has to be worked out of the mix with a constant wetting and squeezing by kneading. That gelatinous starch is a vital part of the windowpane and crumb formation in bread and will make a loaf fluffy and airy. By adding starch, in the form of potatoes,or tang Zhou or other non-gluten flour, you will increase the starch in the dough and make the resulting softer and fluffier as it is more efficient at trapping bubbles of gas. I think of the gluten as the netting strands and the starch as a light film-both necessary to trap the gas produced by the yeasts. Adding extra gluten (vital wheat gluten) makes more "netting" which is tougher than the starch part of the crumb. You will have more bubbles trapped by more netting but it will be a tougher chew.
So add a little more water and develop that starch!
thanks i will try that ... i always use a recipe and add flour if its too wet etc...
some more tips on technique for the window pan test...following the model I saw repeated in my SFBI courses...wet you hand first, grab the edge of your dough mass firmly and rip off a chunk as cleanly as possible (like David said, about the size of a golf ball)...not pulling at it and stretching it, but tearing it off in a firm quick yank. Then, with that piece, work it into a thinner and thinner membrane by gently pulling out--in all directions ---(so rotating the mass or constantly changing the directions your fingers are working).
thanks
I sometimes find that the windowpane is much easier and better after the dough has been allowed to rest (bulk ferment) for a while after mixing. It relaxes and gets softer and stretchier. When I do a series of stretch & folds after the initial mixing (after the salt has been added), I see how the windowpane is before I do the S&F. Check again after half an hour. You might be surprised how much the dough has changed just from sitting for a while!
it does relax quite a bit but still does not pass the test... maybe I'm not just not meant to have it happen. :)
Double Post
First are you using high protein flour and what is your water to flour percentage? You're developing the gluten in the dough and also its extensibility (its capability to stretch without tearing or breaking). High water content doughs will not easily window pane so don't even try until you're about to form and weigh it (yes, by then it is too late - but you should know from prior builds its ok).
When do you add the salt? At the beginning or at the end? Salt will tighten the gluten or "rubberize" the dough making window paning difficult until the dough has had time to relax (~10 minutes).
I don't window pane at all anymore. I look into the mixing bowl and view the dough stretching off the sides of the bowl and the way in which it tears or does not. When it stretches without tearing it's ready to add the salt - simple as that. Everything is important in sourdough baking - this is another one of those "learned behaviors" that only come through doing and the aid of someone telling you what you should be looking for...,
Wild-Yeast
i don't know if its a high protein flour. I add the salt at the beginning.
Thanks for the feedback.. i appreciate it !