Hey guys, so far ive been able to consistently get good (but not great) bread, which my friends love, and is on a 'weekly subscription' plan with me.
Though i always wonder why my loaves do not come with larger holes. Have a look at my procedure and let me know if it's an issue with my recipe, technique or procedure?
Any tips on what i may be doing wrong will be appreciated.
Rye Starter (kept in fridge): After 3 feeds, the whole starter is kept in the fridge at 1:1
Preferment: 20g starter:50g water: 50g rye flour, mixed and left alone for ~8 to 12 hrs depending on my schedule.
Autolyse: ~30 min (85F)
500g King Arthur Ap flour
40g whole wheat flour
396g water (76% final hydration)
12g salt
120g preferment
5g yeast (i always feel my starter is weak, so i augment with yeast)
Knead by hand ~30 min (85F)
S&F 30 min intervals 4 times over 2 hours. (85F)
Bulk ferment ~8 to 10 hours depending on schedule. I put the whole container into a beer cooler that i've filled with ice and it seems to maintain at 70F
Bench rest ~15m
Shape into a boule and proofed in a banneton ~45m
At this point i should add that my dough is extremely sticky. I've seen tons of vids of people shaping and handling doughs of similiar or higher hydration, and it always seems less sticky than mine. I've always attributed it to condensation from removing it from 70F to a 85F environment.
Is that a symptom of over proofing?
Bake in Dutch oven total 55m (15 cover, 40 uncovered)
As mentioned, i prefer if my holes were larger, and my oven spring to be better. I can never get a very pronounced 'ear'.
I would very much like to preserve this time table as this is the only schedule that works for me. (till i hit the lottery and quit my day job to bake full time)
Thanks in advance guys! And let me know if i missed anything.
I'd be careful with the bulk ferment. 8-10 hrs at that temp, with added yeast might be a little long.
yes i suspect that too.
my dough during shaping is extremely sticky, and i've edited my original post to indicate that.
is that a result of over BF?
what do you think would be a more appropriate length?
also, does that include the 2 hrs S&F?
I occasionally make hybrid loaves of about the same size using 2-3 gm of yeast. At ~70F room temp, they double in no more than about 4 hours.
hello HP,
is this the exact position of the AL in your working schedule where you wrote it in? And what exactly is in your Autolyse? All?
rudi
Keep that in mind. I know, sounds like an excuse but not all breads should have lots of holes. It depends on how the bread will be served and eaten.
Got a crumb shot? :)
What makes you think the starter is weak?
Fully agree, big holes are ok with cheese and cold cuts but jam, honey and other sticky toppings are a nightmare with those exaggerated holes.
Gerhard
Get the final prodding timing down and if anything a tad under proofed is better than over proofed.
Lots of heat especially in the first few minutes. Try dialing up the oven heat 10f maybe ?
A pinch of soy flour helps bubbles (at least for me). 0.5% max
With 1% yeast and running your bulk fermentation at 85°F but only 10% of your flour in the levain, the yeast is definitely the determining factor in how long you can support bulk fermentation without running out of sugars for the yeast. I would expect that a bulk fermentation time of less than 2 hrs would be plenty, and you have 30 min autolyse + 30 min kneading + 2 hr of bulk fermentation at 85°F. So by then you should be ready (or maybe past ready) to divide and shape. Another couple of hours of proofing (max) and you should be ready for the oven. At 76% hydration you are into the wet dough zone so gluten development normally takes a lot of energy and I am not sure that you can deliver that by hand in 30 min. I would be using a mixer at pretty high speed for 5-7 min (and maybe more) and then running a window pane test with wet hands to make the call on whether the gluten is well enough developed.
silly me! i forgot the pic
to answer a few of your questions:
autolyse was including the levain, but not the yeast nor salt.
my starter felt weak because it didnt manage to double the last time i did this procedure without yeast.
I have thought about increasing the levain to about 20%. but gonna try a 5 hour proof this time. at 70f
left shot is my loaf with that procedure. right side was proof 12 hrs at 70f, followed by an overnight (~8h) rise in the fridge cos it was 1am.
things i wanna improve on:
oven spring? with respect to my loaf on the left.
holes, just purely as an achievement.
Inside the dough when shaping. Proofing for 12 hours at 70F? Do you mean final proofing? A long time even for the bulk ferment (if that's what you mean) unless using around 5% starter give or take. Some things to think about. Otherwise, nice loaves.
And a ciabatta can be baked with a short proof if the bulk fermentation is right. I am not surprised that you are having difficulty shaping a dough that is that wet; normally ciabatta is just divided and not shaped per se. I am presuming that you use instant dry yeast, but if you add it when you mix and the dough temperature is 85°F, then there is probably not sufficient water and temperature to activate it. IDY would like to be rehydrated in a wet environment at 120-125°F so I would encourage you to put the yeast in when you do the initial mix (before autolyse) along with your warm water to get it properly activated. There is nothing magic about autolyse that works better without the yeast - it serves to allow the flour to hydrate and facilitates the early chemistry of gluten formation and restarting the LAB and yeast so that it saves time and energy when you actually do the mechanical mixing that develops the gluten. Having the yeast in the mix at that point has no negative consequences.
May i know why you say my formulation is almost ciabatta? Aren't ciabattas ~90% hydration?
Also, yea, i meant to say bulk ferment ~12 hr instead of proof.
I'm using SAF packet yeast, if that helps, not sure which category it belongs to.
Things i'm gonna try next are: same procedure, but leave out the yeast.
increasing the innoculated yeast from 10% to 20%, shorter proof.
Obviously i'd much prefer to leave my procedure intact, since it works very well for my schedule currently.
Silly question, but time spent during S&F still counts as bulk fermentation right?
Ciabatta is a style of bread rather than a particular formulation so there is no specific hydration, however Hamelman has a number of ciabatta formulations in Bread that are 72 or 73% hydration. I usually make mine at 75%. Others may be lower or higher. Coccodrillo is an even wetter version that can be 95% (see http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread). So at 76% you are in the zone.
SAF makes both IDY and Active Dry yeast in packets so you will have to decide what you bought - they are clearly marked. If you are proofing it before you add it to the mix then you know it has been activated. However IDY is normally mixed with the flour and activated by the hot liquid when it is combined.
I don't know what you mean by -
"Things i'm gonna try next are: same procedure, but leave out the yeast.
increasing the innoculated yeast from 10% to 20%, shorter proof."
And yes, any time between initial mix and divide/shape can be counted as bulk fermentation (even autolyse).
You may want to drop down to around 67% hydration to run variations with yeast and starter-only just so you have a well behaved dough that you can easily handle. After you get that under control from a timing perspective you can start increasing the hydration in small steps.