Hi everyone I would really appreciate some input on this!
I have been baking a lot of sourdough bread in order to improve my technique, bulk fermentation and shaping!
I am getting a beautiful oven spring (my breads get tall), during the bulk fermentation my dough get airy and pillowy, and during shaping I am able to get good surface tension.
The one thing that I can't seem to get is an even distribution of air holes, concentrate close to the crust while the inside of the crumb was a lot of much small air holes. I want a more open structure and even distribution of air holes through out my crumb.
The one loaf of bread that I ever made with holes all over the crumb is actually a Ken Forkish recipe (using commercial yeast) his same day white day recipe. I don't know how this realization just dawned on me, but how could I be getting a great oven spring and have a faulty starter?
Why are my holes limited or concentrated around the crumb? 
I would try more kneading, more water, longer fermentation and higher gluten flour
one is to put in another fold to help with distribution
the other is a bit longer proof - as illustrated here:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/troubleshoot-bad-bread-messed-up-loaf.html
Your bread looks pretty nice, and it doesn't seem like you're starter is a problem from what you say and what you show (and I wouldn't advise drawing too many conclusions from your one good yeasted bread experience)
Thank you so much for this reply! I will read the article like right now!
Longer bulk proof or final proof?
yeast to populate the dough enough to raise it properly. If the dough starts out bulk fermentation with a large population of yeast, the bulk time is shorter than when the yeast population is low. Low yeast population needs time for repeated budding cycles to increase the population.
Bulk proof is characterised by large bubbles surrounded by tiny round bubbles with an uneven distribution throughout the dough.
That's how I see it anyway.
I see that type of activity more so in my pizza recipes (I use cultured yeast) rather than in my sourdough dough during bulk fermentation.
I live in Texas where the kitchen can get too hot (I always worry about overproofing during bulk fermentation; is that even possible?)
By the time I come to shape the dough my dough is really pillowy and gassy.
I follow the recipes closely but since I live in Texas (where my kitchen can be at around 86 degrees) I don't know how to adjust the time to proof (my dough) to the one listed in the recipe.
an extra couple of hours (I went to the movies), the dough was unshapable, the was no surface tension, as there was no surface to speak off, the dough kept coming apart pretty much for that recipe I used a weird combination of flour and followed the tartine country loaf recipe! The dough when I took it out of the bulk container looked like enriched dough for a brioche or something (and insanely sticky).
What you had there then with the extra couple of hours was the classic over bulk fermentation referred to by bakers as a rotten dough for the very reasons you describe of the dough's changed characteristics. Yeast quantities water temperatures and finished dough temperatures were always important when we had to make bulk fermented doughs for bakehouse production.
Loss of control could mean disaster if a 4 hour dough matured an hour early which could be before other staff came into work or alternatively a slow dough would not be ready. "Goldilocks" really it had to "be just right" processing a green dough or a rotten dough produces poor bread but when its just right its good. As you say recognising that particular point can be difficult.
I know that in my retirement and as a hobby I found it more difficult when I started making higher hydration sour doughs and was incorporating stretch and folds to determine the bulk fermentation times required, whereas the conventional mix with commercial yeast and bulk fermentation was quite predictable with reference tables for yeast quantities for the various required bulk fermentation times. Also the dough was allowed to B/F undisturbed for the whole time and the poke test was fairly easy to do to ascertain that optimum B/F.
You might like to do a bit of experimenting using a single dough and do tests perhaps taking a piece of dough setting it aside for a B/F undisturbed and another piece that incorporates the S/F seeing how they compare. it will give an indication of how long it takes for that Particular dough to produce the required amounts of yeast/gas to fully expand that dough, especially when you consider we are expelling some of the gas with our stretching and folding each time and loosing the visual aid that we might normally have of readiness.
I have found Sourdough baking to be a little more challenging as there is such a difference in the different S/D Cultures that we all use, there isn't the same predictability that there is with commercial yeast. However S/D Bakers that bake everyday and commercially probably have built up their knowledge and predictability of their doughs with particular attention to water temperatures and finished dough temps.
Regarding your breads I think they look good, Random holey structure is a feature I quite like. I think that we don't actually keep enough notes on what we do so that when we do achieve certain results good or less desirable we are not in a position to reflect what we may have done that has been responsible for that outcome.
My note taking has increased of late probably to compensate for a declining memory but it is also very useful as in your case when two extra hours were added to the B/F and the results that gave, although that was probably extreme whereas some are quite subtle but can be significant. such as a few extra S/Fs or even a few less
We were required to use a dough book when I was the dough maker at a bakery and although it had all the formulas written out for the different doughs that were required I used to add comments especially if a dough finished a few degrees warmer or cooler and when the doughs were nearing maturity you were able to check on them which may have required those doughs being taken either earlier or later for them to be "goldilocks " just right.
good luck in your quest kind regards Derek
That sounds like more efficient degassing is needed. I pop any large bubbles I see near the surface before baking unless I want them. They form collectively inside the dough and because of their size, quickly make their way to the surface. More so in high hydration doughs and sourdoughs comparatively.
Popping them collapses them closing the holes in the matrix. I find that when there are many such large bubbles during a final proof (and don't want them) I had most likely misjudged the bulk proof and will do another folding and/or degassing reshaping the loaf for a new final rise. The bubbles in the crumb will then be more evenly distributed. Use the final proof time to control the size of the bubbles.
simply reduce the amount of yeast. Start out with half the amount and drop further if you need to. I find that 7g per 500g flour is way too much instant yeast here in Laos with temps in the high 80°s and 90°s in the afternoon. 2g gives me a bigger window to play with the dough. Same with the starter, reduce the inoculation and use small builds for the levain.
Other ways to slow down in the yeast fermentation is to
That's all I can think of right now. The jungle has stopped chirping and it's time to sleep. Pleasant dreams from the Mekong.
done and ready for dividing? I can see how this would vary flour to flour as well.
Do you wait till you see big bubbles on top of the dough, this seems to happen to my yeast dough but not my sourdoughs. The sourdoughs tend to be airy and pillowy on the inside with some bubbles forming when I handle the dough.
The only exception was a ciabatta type recipe I did, with a very long machine miching period and 6 hour bulk ferment with 250 grams of starter per 1000 grams flour. There tons of bubbles on top, I also bulk fermented in a rectangular container in stead of the round cambro container I usually use.
wheat ruling of "double" the volume. Less for other flours and less for rolls because rolls take more handling which extends the bulking. The more whole flour, the less it will double and if comparing to 100% rye, doubling is over-fermented. White wheat sets the standard, all others are compared to it.
One way to check fermentation with a sharp knife or bench scraper cut open the dough as it is rising. Look at the bubble matrix structure in the dough, take a photo and study it then slap it back together. If you don't see anything but wet flour, then fermentation hasn't been going on long enough. (That's when I look to see if I grabbed non-gluten flour by mistake.) If you see only a few big bubbles and no medium sized ones and lots of tiny ones, deflate and let it ferment more. Keep track of the temp and total fermenting time from mixing up the dough to baking. Take a whole series of photos with times and temps if it helps. The dough is there to teach you, take advantage of it.
Making a rough dough gauge: (another way to check fermentation)
Stuffing a sample bit of dough into a skinny olive jar (or fancy tall skinny liquor glass) can give you more of an idea if the sourdough is constantly being interrupted will folding and reshaping. Pack the sample into the bottom evenly and mark the level now and mark for "double." Cover and keep it near to the big batch of dough. Try to keep them together and treat the same except the small gauge doesn't get folded or degassed. For whole flours lower the mark a little bit or shape the loaf before it reaches double. The more whole flour, the sooner (lower) you will be shaping before "double." Punch the dough gauge down when you shape the dough into a loaf for the final rise if you want to keep using it but it's purpose is to gauge the bulk rise.
Thank you for this! I learned a lot today as I had no idea why waiting for the dough to double was the standard in fermentation.
Now I am going to go check out FWSY and see if he lets the dough rise less for whole grains than for plain white flour. I know he pushes his doughs to the extreme and has doughs go to triple! Which might explain why a lot of people have trouble with his breads. It may not be just his timings that are off. If your flour can't handle that amount of fermentation, that definitely would cause problems.
ETA: Nope he doesn't follow the rule of more whole grain, less bulk fermentation. Interesting!