So basically for the past two weeks, I have had about 2 good loaves, the rest have all overproofed. Thing is I feel like it is within the the normal time range for a retarded final proof. I do use quite a bit of whole grains, mostly 50-70% that I mill. Here is my process
Make 4-5 Hour leaven
Autolyse 40 min - 1 hour (Just flour and water)
Mix/Knead in Electric Mixer for 5 min, then wait 10 mins and mix another 5 mins
- 5% Leaven
- 2.2% Salt
- Most of the time 85-90% Hydration
Bulk 3.5-4 hours Dough at around 76 F
Shape
Final Proof - 7-8 Hours
Maybe its because the weather, but this seems a bit fast, but not quite sure. This schedule allow me to bake in the morning, but I now have to get up around 3 am or 4 am to catch the dough in its best state
And a short bulk ferment for that percentage then into the fridge I'm at a loss at how you overproof.
How do you know that overproofing is the issue?
Your percentage of levain, is that the percentage of fermented flour or is that the total amount including water? Either way, this is very low.
How cold is your fridge? I over proofed until I dropped the temperature to 38F/3C.
So this moring I pulled these two out of the oven.
Recipe was
Leaven
Dough
My refrigerator sits at 40 F
Another thing, I just started using the electric mixer around this time, am I over mixing it?
And it is very, very hard to overmix dough. I agree with you that it looks like over-proofing but, as Lechem says, it could also be a result of your starter not being active enough. If it's the latter, it runs out of oomph and the cell structure collapses to produce pretty much what you see in the photos.
Reading your posts, I think I've spotted a problem. 4-5 hours for a levain to ferment is way too short. Yes, this can work well with a lively starter which keeps gobbling up flour, but when you build a levain, you are inoculating a yeast-free flour-water paste with a small amount of starter. Yeast populations double every four hours or so (in ideal conditions) and that's why a levain is used to grow as much yeast as possible (without using up too much of your starter) before you add it to the dough. Most levains require 12-16 hours to achieve this. Why not give this a go, making sure that the levain is at a nice 23-24℃ (73-75F)? You'll need to check it frequently after the 12-hour mark to see if it's reached maturity. Once you know how this particular levain responds you can build a convenient baking schedule around it. For example, there's no harm in popping an almost mature levain into the fridge until you're ready to bake (it will also improve the sourdough flavour). It's what I do with my San Francisco style SDs. :)
Ok, I started with the tartine books, and he uses a young leaven, so thats what I tend to do. I made a leaven this morning and will use it in about 11 hours so I will see how that goes. I do prefer a milder sour flavor though which is why I use a young leaven.
and there is too young.
I don't think young is too much of a problem as long as you watch the dough and not the clock! If you do jump the gun and start too early then allow the dough dictate to you when it's done. Which is what you should be doing anyway.
Perhaps if you want to use a young leaven why not go for a larger amount of young leaven. Young and only 5% and you risk under fermented.
Ok, so I think what I am getting from everyone is it most likely has to do with my starter/leaven. I tend to use a young starter and young leaven. Once it gets mixed in the dough I don't think I have much of a problem, my intuition on the feel and look of the dough has developed enough to where I can watch the dough instead of the clock. With the leaven, I tend to rush it and just use it whenever because I am on a schedule, and use heat to get away with the sometimes underdeveloped leaven. I will try this mature leaven tonight and see how it goes tomorrow. I am going to move the back up to 9%.
You have to wait until a levain is ready to use. Too early and there's not enough yeast for your dough. Btw, leaving a levain to cold retard for a few hours won't give you a strong sourdough. It take three days for the lactobacilli in mine to do their work.
I think Tartine, by not considering how their commercial techniques (and unorthodox approach) need to be tweaked for the home baker, have made baking very hard (often too hard) for a lot of inexperienced bakers. It's a shame so many people start with these books. Thank goodness you've got the experience to question what went wrong.
I don't quite follow the first part, what do you mean by the cold retard? Are you saying you make the leaven 3 days in advance, and cold retard it?
I actually started with book 3, I don't think I have made a sourdough loaf under 30% Whole grain, and my neighbor works on a farm and can get me really nice wheat. Needless to say I was pretty confused at first.
How you keep your starter and what you do to prep your levain.
Is this overproofed or is your starter not firing on all cylinders?
How active is your levain when used in the dough?
5% leaven and a 4-5 hour leaven build doesn't sound enough.
I bake about every morning so start is fed 3 times a day,
6am
12-1 pm, also when I make my leaven
then at 10 pm
I use whole grain rye and bread flour mix which will change between 3:1 or 1:1.
Last week I made a 70% Whole Wheat Loaf I milled, with 30% KA bread flour and 9% Leaven and it turned out great.I originally started this winter using about 13%, but these few weeks I have been lowering it more and more due to the issues
I am still confused as to why, or how, you're overproofing with those percentages. How warm is it where you live?
I'm thinking along the lines of chilling the water before making the dough and watching the dough and not the clock. Also lowering your fridge to 38°F like Danni.
It's been around 40-55 F these past few weeks, some colder. Milling does heat the flour a little, but I have been doing that for a while, with no issue. The two biggest differences is the electric mixer and I upped the amount of whole grains I am feeding my starter, 3:1 instead of 1:1 with bread flour. There was one time my refrigerator got down to 20 F and the outside of my dough froze, but after letting it sit for only about 30 mins I put in the oven and got a very nice loaf.
At 5% starter and at those temps I'd be able to do a whole night bulk ferment and not over proof. Something is not right. I agree with RoundhayBaker.
mixers do add a lot of heat during mix. Perhaps this is unbalacing your old schedule.
that stands out to me and it's not over-proofing:
Bulk 3.5-4 hours Dough at around 76 F
Shape
Final Proof - 7-8 Hours
...I don't see any folding during the entire fermenting process other than a shaping around 4 hours. The final proofing is too long unless it is retarded, still. the loaf shape and that lifted roof says it laid too long without folding to break up that big bubble or group of bubbles (still in the bulk stage) and tighten the gluten and surface skin. Especially with high hydration. The loaf looks more tired than over proofed. The bulking part should be longer and include some folding/shaping and the final shaping should be done with a shorter proof.
With the electric mixer I have stopped doing as many strech and folds, and gone down to two, I'll try doing more.
The final proof is retarded in the fridge around 40 F
loaf gained when it was retarded?
I'm not quite sure what that means, but I think you are talking about it's size, so yes, its gained in size by about 1/3. I could tell it was gone, when I got it out of the fridge because it had just gotten to the point where it was no longer convex in the banneton.
How much volume did the dough have when the decision was made to degas, shape and retard the doughy loaf? In other words before it was retarded?
Convex in the banneton? Is it possible the banneton is too large or too flat for the amount of dough? Got a photo of the dough in the banneton?
Oh, I shape it after about double, probably a little less. I stop the bulk when I can see a bit of activity and the dough can support its self (looking convex at the edges). I don't degas though if that matters
I don't think the bannetons are too big, I made 900-1000g loaves and the bannetons are 10 X 4.5
Any large bubbles at this stage will get bigger with proofing.
Have you tried shaping the dough after retardation?
I don't see any banneton shape in this loaves at all , it looks to me as though a lump of dough was dumped on a flat tray and left to its own devices for a few hours .
I get to window pane and the gluten feels stong and elastic with I shape, so I assumed the gluten network breaking down was due to the over proofing.
that they can't relax too much on the job. How does the finished bread taste? If it has too much sour, then it's time to look at strengthening the yeast population or a larger inoculation, as mentioned earlier might help.
As crazy as it sounds, a small inoculation gives a more sour bread. A larger one less sour. A young starter does not mean a small inoculation, it tends to mean a starter that hasn't peaked yet in activity.
My bread has almost no taste of sour. I think it has to do with, young starter, leaven, and short proof time. I am going to try to use my starter right after it peaks and extend the leaven to around 6 hours. I have a 11 hour one working right now for 6 tonight.
If I'm reading your recipe correctly you are over 80% hydration. This is Ciabatta territory. I really think it's a lack of gluten development that it the culprit. Also, what is the baking temperature?
Yeah, I'm normally pushing 85%, but also use a lot of whole grain, that are fresh milled so I push the flour to where I think it can take. It normally makes a pretty strong dough, except with spelt, I have yet to make a good spelt dough. 500F then 475F in a combo cooker
High hydration and high bran content is not a good mix .
Had anyone else worked with this recipe ?
Well, I have done a 20% Rye with a total of 70% whole grains at 90% hydro that has worked very nicely. The over proofed, high hydro loaves tends to spread quite a bit for me, however, the nice loafs, are well, nice bannetons.
is the obvious solution . Over proofing , proofing and under proofing are time related . Correct the times and you have eliminated the problem .
Yes, I get that, however, these time frames should work, and have worked. It is within these past two weeks things have not been. I know that there is not a set way, but this sudden shift would imply something is wrong, especially with this time frame, and that amount of leaven.
Looking at the photos , I wonder , did you did hand knead and hand shape the dough into balls before you placed them on the baking tray for the final rise ?
I kneaded with the mixer for 10 mins total, then did 2 stretch and folds during a 4 hour bulk. Pre-shaped, bench rest 25 min, shaped into batards, then placed into fridge
do they eliminate the machine dough hook air pockets from the dough ?
What method of shaping are you using ?
Well after I transfer the dough from the machine I will mix it around with my hand to get rid of any
Shaping is standard fold onver, then left side, right side, stitching, and rolling over.
machine kneaded dough around with your hand . Is the dough the same consistency as a cake mix ? Or is it an elastic lump , one that can be tossed up in the air and be caught with ease in one hand , or something in between ?
This video is a good example of a 'something in between' dough being shaped .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKl_7C9tZ6g
Here is tonight's dough
25% KA Bread Flour
20% KA AP
20% KA Whole White
35% Fresh Milled Whole Wheat
9% Leaven (11 Hour, 70% Hydro)
2% Salt
87% Water
76 F 4 Hour Bulk
Pre Shape/ Bench Rest 30 mins
Scoring was a bit weak on both of these guys, but overall very happy. Thanks again, I'll bake another tomorrow with the same changes to confirm it was me rushing the leaven
What a huge difference!
Those loaves look very good!!!
With upping the whole grains more, have you given much thought to soaking the whole flours (with the salt) before mixing up the dough or using some of the whole flours in a tangzong or pre-gelantinized goop?
Great photos and I love the looks of the dough (and granite.) Crumb looks much better!
Allow a teeny tiny bit more yeast growth before shaping.
Thanks for the suggestion, I look into that see if it helps
glad it all worked out
The second loaf was also a success. It is a different recipe but same levain fix
20% Rye, 60% Whole Grains Total, 89% Hydro, and 8% Levain,
Really Creamy crumb
well done