I have a bit of a love hate relationship with sourdough - I love to eat it and hate to make it.
After getting up extra early for 2 weeks to cultivate my starter and getting in trouble with the Mrs for leaving messy dough flecks all over the sink, the failure of my last attempt at sourdough last summer put me off until I was given some active starter a couple of weeks ago. I've been making myself use it in the hope it can produce decent bread, but thus far it really isn't working out. I've been using the vermont sourdough with wholewheat recipe.
The stats:
I keep the starter at 60% hydration as a standard as I find stiffer starter is easier to read. I took the starter out of the fridge on Thursday morning for a Sunday bake as I wanted it to have one extra day to become properly vigorous. I was feeding it twice a day with a ratio of 1:1:0.6, until Saturday when I made the final build. It was tripling in approximately 12 hours (22-25 degrees C-ish). When I switched it to the 125% hydration for the final build it did go bubbly and foamy on the top which is all I know to judge activity from when it's such a thin liquid - if anybody has other tips on how to read activity I would very much appreciate it!
The dough I made this morning rose around 5 - 10% in a bulk proof of 3 hours (which set the alarm bells in my head), approximately another 5 - 10% after shaping, and probably less than 5% oven spring. The resulting bread was flat and spongey, with sporadic big holes but an overall dense structure. Taste-wise it was slightly sour but otherwise completely bland. I'm keeping it because I don't like waste but it's not good bread by any stretch of the imagination and after yet again more sourdough failure I'm really hoping that somebody might have a few suggestions on where the problem could lie. I'm not sure I'll have the motivation to keep going on if I fail yet again.
12 hours at 22/25°C no good It must tripling in 5/7 hours at 22/25°C.
Gaetano
That seems like a significant difference. Do you have suggestions on how I might strengthen my starter?
Process:
I use white bread flour at 60% hydration for my standard feeds. So far I've been keeping it in the fridge then bringing it out to build 4 days before I bake, with two feeds approximately 12 hours apart at 1:1:0.6.
Work in some rye or ww
I think I'll throw in some WW and see how it goes then. Cheers!
Are you using your starter at the optimal time. Are you watching the clock or the dough?
Tbh your loaf looks very good from here. But you're the judge when it comes to taste.
How about this recipe and perhaps keep a diary of how every stage of the bake went from Levain build till the finished product and include photos.
https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/
Thank you for the tips, Lechem. Helpful as always!
I'm not quite sure how to read the 125% hydration starter aside from foamy bubbles on the top. There were foamy bubbles there but without experience I don't know if there were quite enough.
With the dough I was doing a bit of both dough and clock watching truth be told. Bulk is supposed to be 2 1/2 hours and I left mine for over 3 hours. Ultimately I was worried that perhaps it was too weak a starter and so didn't want it to run out of steam, which is why I shaped even though it had barely risen. Also from what I've read a long proofing period produces bread with a more pronounced sourness, which is not really the flavour I'm after.
Next bake day I'll try the diary idea along with the recipe you recommended and take photos of the process. If it's still a bit of a mess I can post it here for the experts!
- how much levain did you use? - maybe your bulk ferment was not long enough for the amount of levain used.
Edit: are you using a Hamelman recipe? I know he uses 125% hydration, and from memory gives a bulk ferment time rather than say until dough doubles for example. my bulk ferment times are longer - it takes a little while for it to get going. try lechems suggestion. it is a good one.
Leslie
Yes, I was following the Vermont Sourdough with wholewheat recipe from Hammelman's book. I followed the recipe pretty religiously. It requires you to use 15% fermented flour at 125% hydration. The book does give times yes, and perhaps that was my downfall. Looking at how the dough behaved, however, I'm not sure it would have had the ability to double even if I'd left it to bulk rise for a much longer time.
I sometimes refresh the levain with a 3 step build (see dabrownman's No muss no fuss starter - its brilliant!) and sometimes I just do I bigger feed and leave on the bench all day. normally it rises beautifully and I make the levain I need that night and make the bread next morning. I try not to stress too much about the hydration these days and would probably use a 100% hydration more often than not, then just adjust the dough as I make the bread, adding or holding back more liquid if it needs it. Not all flours cope with higher hydration but I suppose being able to judge this comes with practice.
stick with it, your starter will gain in strength as it goes. maybe you should make a 100% hydration levain holding back the water from this part and adding it later if needed. Only mix your final dough when your levain has actually risen and is lovely and bubbly. then make sure your BF is good. Rome wasn't built in a day and we have all had our ups and downs :)
good luck, keep trying and happy baking
Leslie
I'll be sure to check out dabrownman's levain building guide then, thanks Leslie. I'm fairly sure on where my flour stands for final hydration when using commercial yeasted breads, but not sure if that changes with sourdough due to the acid/longer proofing times etc, and not sure if hydration at feding stage would affect anything other than the taste of the final product.
BTW - by BF you mean bread flour?
good luck.
Leslie
Your dough is definitely under proofed. Probably a not active enough leaven
Yes, you're the second person to comment perhaps the starter is not active enough. Any tips on building a more lively starter?
I bought mine in 2010 from Sourdo and followed Ed Wood's instruction booklet that came with it. So I don't remember. I do know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Gal. 5:9), so if the dough hasn't risen, it's not ready and needs more time. The active liquid starter should be very frothy amd bubbly. Like tons of bubbles. It takes time after feeding.
fwiw my bulk ferment is closer to 5-6 hrs With 20% leaven.
But I don't think it is a starter problem if it is tripling at 125% hydration. I am guessing you are not following the bulk ferment and final proof recommendations of how much the dough should rise before proceeding to the next step. Your bulk and final proof are way too low in rise. For a white bread like this one you want it to final proof about 85-90%. Toss the clock, it is pretty much useless in bread making and only causes problems. SD isn't like commercial yeast that is predictable. Tere is a reason why JH didn't give you any tomes for bulk and proof but did tell pu how much it shouild rise. Patience comes to those who wait:-)
Happy baking
Thanks for the comments. It wasn't tripling at 125%, but at 60% which is the hydration I kept it at before final build. at 125% it was just getting foamy on the top with a tiny bit of rise because the liquid was aerated. I know I could have let it rise for longer I was just concerned if I'd bulk risen it for 6 hours (as an example) and then final for another 3 or 4 then the yeast would have exhausted itself and the structure of the bread would have been negatively affected. That was really why I was a bit too quick and "by the book".
I did actually use the JH Bread book which only gave time and no instruction as to how much it should rise - I guess we must be using different editions! I'm going to have another bash with the recipe Lechem suggested this weekend to see how it goes...
after I have completed 3 or 4 stretch or slap and folds about 30-40 minutes apart. I pre shape briefly then mostly shape and retard straight away and bake out of the fridge in the morning in hot oven 230-250°C.
My version of Bread only gives times too but I am confident enough now to wait until dough looks and feels right before shaping. Room temperature varies from 20 - 24°c.
Look forward to your next bake.
Leslie